Starting My First Reef Tank

[WatchUrSix]

I'm starting my first reef tank about Tuesday of next week. I've bought everything i need from a local store, and i wanted to know if the prices were about right for what i got.

I bought everything i need from the ground up, all the way as for as getting a Cherry stand for it.

I don't have a list of what all i got, but total it's going to be around 1,100.00 for everything. The Wet Dry i got will handle a 125 gal tank even though I'm only getting a 40gal tank. I plan on running two reef tanks, this is why i have a bigger wet-dry.

I can post a list of what all I will be buying if that would help. I just want to make sure I'm not paying too much, cuz from what it seems I'm going to pay alot as it is, just in fish and coral.

Thanks,
JOey

[tyoberg]

Using a wet/dry for a reef tank is sort of a thing of the past (sort of like buying an 8-track for your new car). There are more effective ways of doing it.

I would recommend a deep sand bed, live rock and a protein skimmer. It will an easier system to run (less maintenance), and will be much easier to maintain a lower nitrate level.

Your LFS shouldn't have a problem if you want to take back the wet/dry and go with something more current.

Ty

[WatchUrSix]

post from : tyoberg
I would recommend a deep sand bed, live rock and a protein skimmer. It will an easier system to run (less maintenance), and will be much easier to maintain a lower nitrate level.


Ok, well with me it's kinda like putting a land turtle in the water and telling him to float and not sink.

What is a deep sand bed? i know what live rock is, and i got a protein skimmer.

As for the price i was wondering if it was about right. 1,100.00 for everything i need. Lights, Stand, Sand, Salt Skimmer, Filter, Tank. exe....

[wickerj]

The best advice I can give you is to read, read, read and then do some more research. Plan out your system based on what you are wanting to keep and what you may want to keep in the future. Invest in a good skimmer, good lighting and a good return pump.
Jeff

[tyoberg]

Sorry, I didn't intentionally want to rain on your day. But, really, this is the best time to get your system setup the best you can.

The deep sand bed concept is pretty extensive, but I'll try:

Biological Filtration: somewhere in your system, there is a bacteria culture that converts toxic ammonia (NH3) to Nitrite (NO2) and a different culture that converts the toxic NO2 to Nitrate (NO3). Nitrate is non-toxic, but is a contributor to algae problems. Operating with high nitrates (say 20ppm or more) is leaving the door open for an algae outbreak.

Nitrate can be removed/consumed by:
water changes (pain in the *****)
skimmer (only somewhat effective)
algae (macro or niusance--macro is big leafy type algea that is generally easy to remove from the tank and a lot of people use this fact to help them export excess nutrients and NO3)
deep sand bed

A deep sand bed doesn't have a lot of water running through it--it's got a low oxygen content (anaerobic). In this area, and anaerobic bacteria will develop that converts NO3 --> N2 gas bubbles which are completely harmless and make their way to the surface. It can convert a LOT of nitrates. Additionally, it is essentially maintenance free--vacuuming is not required and is actually harmfull as it removes bugs, worms and other critters that eat waste and detrious and excess food.

A DSB is 4-6 inches of sugar grain sized sand.

Here's a link to a really
good F.A.Q. on DSB's (http://www.reefkeepers.org/faq/cache/33.html).

Hope that helps! The modified berlin system of filtration (LR,DSB&skimmer) is very popular and has been very successful in the last few years.

Ty

[WatchUrSix]

So a seeded spung in my wet dry; does this not server the same purpose. i know i didn't mention it but the person I'm working with I worked for about 2 years ago. he's been running a pet store for about 10 to 20 years now. in the last 4 or 5 he's had fish in his store I've watch grow, and are still there, so i beleive when he tells me how to go about a tank. i was just wondering if the price 1,100.00 was about right from the ground up.


Thanks

[CoastladUK]

Hi
it seems kinda like you are asking the wrong questions - if you trust this guy you know in the store enough to take his advice on a wet/dry filter then surely you trust him enough that the price is ok and dont need people on here to confirm that.
the more important question is "am i doing the right thing", and whilst a wet/dry will work to a degree the LR/DSB/skimming method - which as Ty said is based on the berlin method - is a better option. the first option will do the job, but the LR/DSB/skimmer will do the job much much better and will be easier for you to maintain, therefore reducing the risk of problems and making the likelyhood of your success and enjoyment in the hobby far greater.

[tyoberg]

It would at least be a good idea to do some reading before you fill the tank up--it won't cost you anything.

A wet/dry will not do the same thing as a DSB. A wet/dry does this:
NH3->NO2->NO3


A DSB does this:
NO3->N2(gas)

It really doesn't matter to me which you use--I dont make a dime out of the deal either way. I was just trying to help by steering you towards a setup that IMO is far and away better than what was used in the 80's.

Ty

[Toutouche]

Watchursix, I know it's a pain in the *** when you ask a question, but all you get is advice about something else, but believe me these guys are telling you the right thing on this board. Yes , your fiends wet/dry system will work, but for how long? Wet/Dry systems are an old fashion way that is NOT the best way, especially for a reef!! They are nitrate factories. When I first setup my tank it was going to be a FOWLR, and I did not know all I should know about SW. I was sold a wet/dry system by the person who made my custom size tank. I believed this guy because he has been around along time, and alot of people told me to go see him. I went, and had my whole system put together by him, tank, filter, and all, and eventually it gave me problems. This guy built tanks, and did maintenance, and now I realize that while he is very good at building tanks, he should stick to that only, because his filter systems are outdated, and yes he always uses custom built wet/dry systems. He has been so busy at buiding tanks, he has not had the time to read, and learn the new ways that things are advancing, and getting better. It was an expensive lesson to learn, and I wish I had these people to tell me what they are telling you. There is alot of experience on this site to listen to, learn from, or at least think about what is being told to you. Please don't take this negatively, everyone is just trying to help you not make some expensive mistakes that you will ( believe me!!) eventually regret, and want to change. Been there, done that!!! ;)

[Court_Jester]

If you want to know if you got a fair price for your equipment then we'll need you to post a list of items and the price you paid.

You'll notice that people quickly focused on the words "wet/dry" because this filtration method is considered old technology. The wet/dry uses media (bio balls, etc.) that provide a large surface area for bacteria to grow on. This is good as it converts toxic ammonia (NH4) to less toxic nitrate (NO3). The key word here is "less toxic nitrate" (this is why one person referred to the wet/dry as a "nitrate factory"). Unfortunately, the bacteria which convert NO3 to inert N2 can't live on the media because the oxygen in the water will not support them. This forces these bateria to live inside the liverock or at the bottom of a sandbed where there is no oxygen. Thus the recommendation of using a deep sand bed with liverock so the complete nitrogen cycle can be efficiently completed within the tank and toxic molecules safely processed without harm to the livestock.

Now you could still use your wet/dry. Just take the media out of it (by taking the media out you force the LR to provide the bulk of the housing for beneficial bacteria) and it becomes a sump where you can store heaters, activated carbon, protein skimmer, return pump, etc. However the wet/dry really isn't optimized for a sump application so it may be difficult to make this work, but since yours is quite large for the tank it may be fine. If you decide that you don't want to go thay way you can still return it for a true sump.

Take the others advice and get a couple of good books to read before you set up anything. Here's two cheap intro books that I'd recommend:

*The Coral Reef Aquarium by Ron Shimek
*Marine Reef Aquarium Handbook by Robert J. Goldstein

These two books should be ~$25 or less and won't tank more than a week to read. This is an expensive hobby so patience and informed decisionss really pay off. Don't let your eagerness now get the best of you or you'll really kick yourself later.

[WatchUrSix]

Thanks people, these are the kinds of answers i was looking for. I mean I know the person I'm buying my tank and stuff from, but I've also noticed things have changed since the days of 8 tracks. CD's? Whats that. lol

I signed up on here to find out if the direction i was going was the right one. We all live and learn, but theirs not enough time to learn all my lessons by myself. Plus I don't have that kind of money. lol

Thanks

:p

[jciaccio]

I almost fell into the same mistake. Since I was on a buget I had bought the tank and stand but nothing else yet from the LFS. I bought the book he had there and recommended everybody read before they started. The book was NAtural Reef Aquariums by Tullock. Well I am so happy I read it before buying the rest of the equipment. I ended up making my own sump out of acrlyic and buying a skimmer. I was already sure I was going to use live sand and live rock because I liked the look :) . Anyways...I have never had any serious algae problems and besides add to many fish at once never had any real water quality problems. My nitrates (besides the cycling period) have always been under 10 ppm. I can imagine problems I could have had if I listened to my lfs and purchased the outragously expensive wet/dry!

Here's an idea for your next trip to your lfs: If they have a big corral display tank that looks great, ask them to see what kind of filtration they use (sump or wet/dry). Most likely they will just have a sump and skimmer. Then ask them why they don't use the wet/dry system they were trying to sell you! ;)