Nudi...

[Reefugee]

Yesterday, I noticed that some of my zoas (include my blues) were not opening up like they usually do. Upon careful inspection of my blue zoas, I noticed that there was something weird on it. So I took the my tweezers and picked out the little sucker. Here is what it was:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b37/mn95616/Nudi.jpg

I checked another zoa that was closed and I found a small little fellow like the one above. I thought to myself - this is weird. I have never seen these buggers on any of my zoas before. And I haven't added any new corals to my tank since I set it up about 1.5 months ago. Then it occurred to me - another reefers tank had "crashed" and he asked me to keep some of his fish and corals (zoas included) for him (this was last Thursday or Friday). So I picked up one of his zoanthid colonies to inspect it. Sure enough, I found like 6 of them in it. ARGGGG. I tried to be nice to a fellow reefer and got bit in the arse.... Dang it!!! I don't know if he knew if he had them or not.

Although I think I already know the answer - I just want to confirm that these little buggers are zoa eating nudis.

Minh :furious:

PS: I am a little p***ed at myself for not dipping the zoas before putting it in my main tank.

[Reefugee]

So for the past three hours, I have been doing a FW dip and swish of all the zoanthids colony that I can pull out of my tank. Luckily my tank is still relatively young, so the zoanthids haven't had much of a time to attach to the aquascaping. I found two different color of nudis. One was like the one above. The other one looked like this (not my picture):

http://gallery.photo.net/photo/2239196-lg.jpg

I searched all the rocks for the curlyQ egg strands, and only found some on the rock that I am holding for another reefer. I think tomorrow (or Friday), I am going to set up my 40G as a quarantine tank and do a fresh water dip on all the zoas daily. Any other suggestions on what else I can do?

Thanks.

Minh

[shilo_1]

FW dipping, possibly with a few drops of lugols, should be the answer.
I got some back in feb, and all it took was a few dips and they were gone....hopefully you will be as lucky ! At least you caught them early !

[thereefgeek]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43056zoo_nudi1.jpg

Sorry to hear about your latest acquisition Minh. Besides the obligitory Flatworm Exit dip that everything entering my tank gets, I dip in Lugol's Solution (10% Potasium Iodide) as well. I usually go double the labeled dosage of 40 drops/gal of tank water (40/half gal.) for 10-15 minutes. Everything from amphipods and worms, to commensal crabs come flying off on that concentration. I don't like fresh water dips for corals for a couple reasons: It's stressful on the animals (except for really short periods, 1 minute or so), and it's too much trouble adjusting the temp and pH of the freshwater to match that of the tank (with short bursts in the microwave and SeaChem buffer). Try the Lugol's first and go right into the Q-tank. Look on the bright side, setting up the Q is a great excuse to do a large water change ;) . Keep your eyes peeled in the next few weeks for the egg strands in the Q and the display. They seem to prefer the undersides of rocks and other places you can't easily get to. Also, don't squash them or even touch the nudibranchs with bare hands. I read of a guy the did that with one and ended up in the Emergency Room with a case of Anaphylactic Shock (http://www.easttnreefclub.com/articles.html). They incorporate the paly toxin from the Zoas they eat into their tissue (don't try eating Zoas at home to protect yourself against predators, it won't work). These little buggers are potentially deadly, so try sucking them up with one of those small pipettes we all have laying around.

[thereefgeek]

You could also let them eat all of your Zoas and eventually they will go away on their own (j.k.). Good luck.

[shilo_1]

Thats not funny, Rich ! lol

[Justin74]

Hopefully its just a different color then the other one cuz it was eating that color of zoa' and not a whole different nudi speci. Ive heard both methods used, and like everything else in this hobby someone always has a bad experience,or no luck with either method. Ive had a sinularia eating nudi before and Lugols did zilch for me. Ive had a capnella get brown jelly, and Lugols did zilch. But its the usually the first thing recommended in a quarantine issue, but doesnt come without a long debate for different uses.
Best way to find out what works, is try and find another one for an experiment. Try the iodine, then try the freshwater(if you have another nudi) see what kills em first or the fastest. Then youd be an expert at telling us what kills zoa eating nudi's ;)
Sorry for your troubles Minh, good luck with everything.

-Justin

[Jus Reefin]

FW dip drops them the fastest IME. When I had them a couple of years ago I tried Iodine and they just bathed in it. I did not try the double does like Rich though

[Reefugee]

Thanks Everyone for your advice. I really appreciate it. I did do a FW dip last night - but did make sure the pH was the same. What should I use to bring the pH up to the same as my tank?

I may still try Rich's method of Lugol solution just to see what happens.

BTW Rich - thanks for the good laugh. I needed it. :D

Minh

[Justin74]

Originally posted by mn95616
What should I use to bring the pH up to the same as my tank?

Minh

Correct me someone if I misunderstood, but thats what the speaker from clamsdirect was mentioning to contradict common perception, he mentioned briefly about FW and that he didnt buff the water to raise ph.That was about clams though, but Id imagine zoa's to be alot tougher seeing how they can be exposed for hours durring low tide.And Im sure theyve been exposed to lots of rain durring these periods of low tide as well,not that Ive witnessed personally but it seems likely.

-Justin

[alexchern75]

thanks for the pictures Rich, those things still scare hell out of me. I had them about a year ago and do not wish them on anyone that like zoas:P

[Reefugee]

I just talked to the person who's zoas I am holding, and he has no clue how he could have gotten them. He hasn't added any new zoas in his tank for a while. He did recently add an anenome, but that shouldn't have introduced the nudis. A FW dip of some of his other zoas did not reveal any nudis. You'd think that if he's had them for awhile, they would have be of plague proportion. :( In talking to him, I remembered that the only thing I have added to my tank recently is two SPS frags from the last MARS meeting - but I seriously doubt they would have introduced the nudis. But once again - the only rock with egg strands was the rock from the fellow reefer. But that could be coincidence. His other rocks appeared clean. I guess I will never know for sure where they came from.

Now that I am over the being p*ssed at myself part, I see this as an early learning experience. Always quarantine / dip anything you put in your tank. Luckily this learning experience happened early on in my new tank so I can easily correct it. :D

Minh

[shilo_1]

FWIW, I was always under the impression that the Lugols was not actually to kill the nudis, but rather worked as an antiseptic for the zoas that had been eaten (ie. it helps heal any flesh that was eaten by the nudis.)

[alexchern75]

here's this from MUCHO REEF, he is the RC zoanthid guru, hes has done a lot of research on preventing and treating nudi probs.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=451720
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=533167

[Reefugee]

Alex - thanks for the link.

I took almost all the zoas out of my main tank, did a freshwater (with a few drops of iodine per cup) dip of all my corals. This time, there were a lot less nudis. The zoas are now in a 10 gallon quarantine tank. I am thinking about doing a daily or every-other-day dip of all my zoas.

Question: Assuming that I don't have any zoas left in my main tank. How long can nudis survive without food? How long does it take for the egg strands to hatch? How long should I leave the zoas in my quarantine tank?

Thanks

Minh

[alexchern75]

I left mine out for 2 months, I played it safe. without food the nudis die pretty fast specially the babies.
my nudis stayed away from my Palithoas.

[TotalKhaos]

yikes Minh That really sucks. Good Luck!

sure are ugly little buggers arent they?

[MUCHO REEF]

Hello mn95616, sorry to hear about your misfortune. I can assure you that nudibranchs can be defeated with diligence and dedication. There are a host of remedies out there and you should choose the one that you are most comfortable with. What I can assure you of is this, you won't eradicate them overnight.

I sold 3 frags to a neighbor last week. I took them to his house and he opened the bag and motioned to place them in his tank. I said, "hey, what are you doing, you should dip them first", his reply to me was" but I know you don't have nudis or anything so why should I dip them", then I said, " dude you should dip each and every zoo before it goes into your tank. I don't care who it comes from, dip it. What if I have a host in my tank that I wasn't aware of which hadn't manifested itself yet". He got the point and proceeded to dip all the frags. My point is this, it is easier to prevent an infestation than it is to eradicate one. Being proactive instead of reactive has saved me hundreds of dollars and it's something I live by.

Iodine clarification. Lugol's will aid in the removal of many unwanted host such as, unwanted parasites and harmful bacteria. It also helps partially consumed zoos to heal. Though, Kent recommends 40 drops per gallon of water, I would never dip my zoos in 40 drops of concentrated Lugol's solution for the recommended 10 to 15. This may be true for stonies and I'm sure many zoo keepers have done the same without any ill affects. I personally would never do it with zoos, there's no need to in my unprofessional opinion. Here's why. If you are dipping a newly arriving zoo colony which has no noticeable signs of a Bacterial infection, ( possible Beggiatoa sp) or a fungus of some sort, then you are only dipping to remove a host predator. The freshwater alone, ( just try it) will cause pods, worm, gall crabs etc. to react as they try to get away so to speak. Setting the PH and temp will only decrease any undue stress on the colony during the dip. Lugol's is a secondary or primary line of eradication and defense. It's also the perfect antiseptic for new arrivals which may have been damaged in transit.

With all due respect to all of the great reefers on this board, Lugol's is not the cure all for every coral that has issues. I am a zoo and shroom nut only for the past 12 years. All I know is this, I have dipped hundreds of colonies and thousands of polyps. It is the miracle cure that has saved the day for me time and time again. I have successfully dipped sick new arrivals and colonies who have suffered at the hands of predation and they have recovered. Lately I have been buying sick or troubled colonies which I know I can save and I get them for little or nothing. I have a crazy combo rock with 40 Soloman Island zoos on it. I paid $ 15 for it and only 2 polyps were open. I cleaned it, dip it, cleaned it off everyday for a week, placed it under a ledge for 2 weeks and then in direct line with high current. I didn't lose a single polyp and the entire colony is in full bloom and stunning to this day.


To be very honest, you can even wipe out a nudi infestation without Lugol's. If you set your PH and temp, dip every single colony every other day and swoosh them violently in an inverted position clockwise to counterclockwise motion, you will see them fly off. Also, make it a habit of flicking your actinics on 3 or 4 hours after dark, you will find them on the glass and out in the open on your zoos. Using a turkey baster, just suck them out. They always seem to gravitate to orange and pink zoos first. They will extract and take on the appearance of the colony they have infested as a means of camouflage. Also look for colonies that are partially retracted, a sure sign of a potential sundial snail or nudi.

Back to the dip, after dipping and before placing them back into your tank, hold the colony near your tank with your actinics on only, it will highlight the white egg sacks which are not affected by the dip in anyway at all. A dedicated set of tweezers will remove them. Target the adults first as they will do the most damage, the juvis are equally important as the grow very fast in a heavily populate zoo tank. Eggs are most often found on the side of longer tentacled zoos and near the top of shorter mat like zoos.

If possible, a Q tine tank is the very best proactive measure after dipping to keep your tank nudi free. I Q tine for 10 to 14 days. I have defeated them at least 5 time in the past, today.......I am nudi free and lovin it.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone else who has commented on this thread. I just wanted to share my experience with them to help and give you some options my friend.

Safe reefing everyone, Mucho

PS, my apologies for the long read, it's a bad habit of typing far too much that I am working on.

[Jus Reefin]

I have used this dip with success many a day. I used to be a Zoanthid freak! I had over 50-60 color morphs min.

[alexchern75]

Wow, that's a keeper. Thanks for the great info Mucho!

[MUCHO REEF]

I didn't mean to barge in the way I did.

Mucho

[Reefugee]

Mucho,

Thanks for the info. Great information!

You're statement

"dude you should dip each and every zoo before it goes into your tank. I don't care who it comes from, dip it. What if I have a host in my tank that I wasn't aware of which hadn't manifested itself yet"

is so true. I am going to start dipping all frags that goes into my tank or move from one tank to another.

Minh

[Justin74]

This will be a great resource now that were coming closer to our swap, great timing and info Mucho, thanks.

-Justin