snail question

[-TS-Vash]

I just got 100 llyanassa snails and 50 nassarius snails i have a 75 gallon tank. I want to keep some and sell the rest to a pet store the question is how many of the snails do i keep for my tank and what snails are better for my tank?:D

[capncapo]

The illynassa snails will be dead within a year or so unless kept in a temperate water tank.

I would keep maybe 7 of the nassarius and sell the rest.

[rshimek]

Hi,

Well, your tank will likely support about 7 to 10 Nassarius depending upon how and what you feed. capncapo's comments about Illynassa are well taken.

You should learn about the animals BEFORE you order them. There is a lot of information available and that would prevent harvesting of animals such as the Illynassa which will simply die in captivity because of inappropriate conditions.

[-TS-Vash]

ok so ill sell all but 10 of the nassarius and all the llyanssa snails i only paid 30 bucks for them all. thanks.

[-TS-Vash]

http://www.reefland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12357&page=2&pp=20

there is a very nice discussion on this and i think ill try these snails for a while plz look at this for your self if you like. As for the first question i asked here how many i can have if you would plz tell me i would appreciate it thanks.

[greenbean36191]

Despite what these people are saying on that thread, what Dr. Ron is telling you is known empirically, not anecdotally. People will also swear by the great jobs that bumblebee snails and sand sifting stars do in their tanks (they don't do anything good).

These snails are found in cool and temperate waters from Canada to northern FL (and from Canada to California on the west coast). Their southern distribution is limited by temperature. Like many intertidal snails they are well adapted to survive periods of elevated temperature, but they do NOT do well at those temperatures indefinitely. These snails feed on diatoms and infauna and need BOTH to survive. They will also scavenge, but not as readily as true Nassarius. When people say they are great reef snails that means A) they haven't had them long enough to kill them all yet, B) they have no idea what is going on with their sandbed infauna C) they know nothing about these snails in nature.

There have been studies that show that these snails are often found to the exclusion of other scavengers (worms and snails) and that their grazing can actually increase the overall diatom population.

To answer the question of how many of these snails you could have: as many as you want. How many should you have? Ideally none. They aren't appropriate for reef temperatures or tanks with sandbeds, and they can't do anything that other snails like Nassarius can't. Dr. Ron has already addressed how many Nassarius you should get.

[-TS-Vash]

ok i dont care what you think and i will add what i think is ok since all i get is that there bad snails thanks and plz do not post any thing else on here unless you like the snails i have listed here.

[greenbean36191]

People aren't here to feed you the answers you want to hear. If you don't want the truth, don't ask the question. This is not what I think. This is what is known to empirically. You should be able to find these articles at a local library so you don't have to care what I say. These are just articles I found by searching a single journal.

For info on their effects on sandbed life:

Kelaher, Brendan P., Jeffrey S. Levinton, and J. Matthew Hoch. 2003. Foraging by the mud snail, Ilyanassa obsoleta (Say), modulates spatial variation in benthic community structure. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 292: 139-157.

"Snails decreased the annelid abundance by about 50%"
"Overall high densities of snails had a consistent negative effect on annelids from a number of genera (Fig. 7). Seven out of eight of the most common annelids showed decreases in average abundance in response to greater snail densities, which is more that can be expected by chance (Binomial test, P<0.05)."

Hunt, J. H., W. G. Ambrose, Jr. and C. H. Peterson. 1987. Effects of the gastropod, Ilyanassa obsoleta(Say) and the bivalve, Mercenaria mercenaria (L.), on larval settlement and juvenile recruitment of infauna. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 108: 229-240.

"I. obsoleta caused a reduction in abundance of as much as 45%. Surface-dwelling tubiculous polychaetes, gastropods, harpacticoid copepods, and mobile subsurface-dwelling infauna all declined in abundance with increasing I. obsoleta density."

DeWitt, Theodore H., and Jeffrey S. Levinton. 1985. Disturbance, emigration, and refugia: How the mud snail, Ilyanassa obsoleta (Say), affects the habitat distribution of an epifaunal amphipod, Microdeutopus gryllotalpa (Costa). Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 92: 97-113.

"In the presence of the mud snail Ilyanassa obsoleta (Say), the tubicolous amphipod Microdeutopus gryllotalpa (Costa) emigrates to snail-free sediments, as demonstrated in laboratory and field experiments."



Info on heat stress (specifically section 4.1):

Downs, Craig A., et al. 2001. A molecular biomarker system for assessing the health of gastropods (Ilyanassa obsoleta) exposed to natural and anthropogenic stressors. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 259: 189-214.



Info on their diet:

Curtis, Lawrence A., L. E. Hurd. 1979. On the broad nutritional requirements of the mud snail, Ilyanassa (Nassarius) obsoleta (Say), and its polytrophic role in the food web. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 3: 289-297

"...only snails fed the mixed diet exhibited growth during the experiment. These results indicate
that I. o6soleta is an obligate omnivore, requiring both animal and plant food sources in its diet."

[Letmegrow]

I like the snails alot, but would NEVER dream of keeping them or ordering them en masse.
They are not bad snails and no one said they were.
You are acting real brand new, so when you actually care about the life of other creatures and the hobby let us know what you think.
Greenbean and everyone else I am sorry on behalf of -TS-Vash, we should 'pity da fool'.

[rshimek]

TS-Vash,

You should heed what you are being told.

[-TS-Vash]

Look you act like i dont care what happens to my snails you say i need to do my research that means you think im stupid. I did my research and for every thing i saw that said there bad to have i saw 2 more from people on other forums that have had these snails for years with no problem. And i spent a long time reading every thing on them i could for you to say i need to do my research like im a kid buying a cool snail at a pet shop just because it looked cool insults me and my intelligence. I ask a simple question of how many to keep not what did i buy is it ok to have.
As far as what i said about not posting anything about not liking the snail thats because i know what i have researched and i can think for my self thanks for taking the time to look at my thread but it does not matter now i have recived the snails and i have kept 35 so thanks but this discussion is over.

[SaltyNewb]

let us know when they die

They don't live in higher reef temps!

[-TS-Vash]

Sure thing i hope your still around here then since it maybe years LOL.

[-TS-Vash]

Not dead yet actually they do a great job and i see all 35 each night when i turn on the moon lights i even feed them frozen food they hit it like a pack of wolves LOL.

[Cluckr7]

Why would you feed your cleanup crew? Doesn't that take away from their purpose? and add to the nutrient chain instead of removing from it?

how many i can have if you would plz tell me i would appreciate it thanks.

**truthful response**

ok i dont care what you think and i will add what i think is ok since all i get is that there bad snails thanks and plz do not post any thing else on here unless you like the snails i have listed here.

LOL !!

[coralfarm123]

I had 4 or 5 of these snails come with some hermits crabs over a year ago that I ordered. Now I have hundreds of these with no ill effects. They multiply like crazy and the babies have grown to adult sizes. I have tons of pods, shrimps, worms, etc. I am more worried about my growing amphipod population. Maybe these are some kind of different snail, but I don't think so. They are black, dig through the sand, and clean the glass occasionally. I have never witnessed them doing any harm to any other creature in my tank. Also, my tanks stays at a constant 80 degrees.

[coralfarm123]

Maybe mine are vibex snails. Who knows? They came from some guy in Florida.

[-TS-Vash]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/-TS-Vash/mikeandsierasvehiclesandfishies035.jpg


I have had them for months now i do a head count every time they all come out and i still have all the ones i put in there plus 20 new ones. There a great snail its just that some of you have had them and had bad water conditions and they died i have good conditions and there not only doing ok but there accutaly multiplying. Ill have to sell some at this rate.

Cluckr7 maybe i just want to feed them some other foods sometimes. Its my tank so i could do what ever i wanted you know.

[-TS-Vash]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/-TS-Vash/mikeandsierasvehiclesandfishies054.jpg
Here is some more is that what you have coralfarm123?

[Cluckr7]

beautiful tank :P Sorry just thought the thread was funny :P

[SeaSpza]

I have local access to these snails and have tried them before.They will die.The fact that you paid for them is indeed funny.You got ripped IMO.I get them free and still find them no good for reef tanks.They should be left in the wild.Nassarius snails are better and readily available.No one is here to call you stupid and we are all just tring to help you learn that it is important to ask questions before you order 100's of anything.

[-TS-Vash]

Well i only put 35 in the tank and sold the rest to the pet stores around town for $1 each and there all sold out of them and want more so i guess some people can keep there pets alive LOL.

BTW after i kept 35 i made $115 off the rest thats why i got them.

And im a member on 4 forums and on all the treads on these snails there has been a 4 to 5 page fight between people who have had them and loved them and people who say the same as you i know how easy there are to get but if i lived by the ocean all things would be easy to get wouldnt they. Bottom line is there is 1 person who will say there the best to have and they have been alive for years for every other person who says they had them die on them and will never try them again.

[-TS-Vash]

You know no where on here did i ask are they good snails to have because i looked them up and i can think for my self i just asked how many did people think i should keep. But every since i made this thread all i have recived is people who say they will die and i should have look them up first before i got them. Two all the others on here and have email or pm me who say they have had them and like them thats good then you know how good they are and i guess its good you can think for your seft to.

[rshimek]

Hi,

You seem to have real trouble evaluating sources of online advice.

See the comments by greenbean, above and read the references he has cited for you.

[SeaSpza]

Just because they sold them at the store doesnt meen they are going to live.And the fact that you profited off those snails is nothing to brag about.Profiting off species that are doomed to fail is an immoral pratice in this hobby.I collected a few from a local beach(Castle Island) and they lived for about 6 months or so.EVERY other snail I have ever bought is still alive except 1 nerit who got killed for his shell by a hermit.Not a bad track record.My water is perfect and my condions are in great shape.I got periwinkle snails as well and they also died soon after I got them.They are temprate snails and should be left in the wild unless you are going to carter to their needs.Just so you know the local water where they come from is in the 30's right now.Lets just say you are going to need a big chiller.

[SuperNerd]

Here is a nice little link about them. :)

http://www.exoticsguide.org/species_pages/i_obsoleta.html

[masterswimmer]

Keeping something alive in your tank for a few months, that should live for years, is no proof that they are thriving and belong in your tank.

Pet shops routinely sell 'Nemos' to people who put them in goldfish bowls and believe it or not, to people who put them in fresh water because their kid is kicking and screaming. So referencing your pet shop deal is no proof either.

You elected to post your query in a forum hosted and moderated by one of the most well respected aquarists in our hobby for a reason. Why would you elect to totally disregard his recommendations? You say you posed the question, "How many should you keep?", not, "Should I keep them?". Well it seems from the answers you've received, the answer from the good Dr. himself is zero. The remainder of the responses are only meant to clarify the reason zero is the maximum number recommended.

Russ

[MyMonkey]

If I may, I would like to ask a question here as well. Should I keep them? I ordered 50 around 6 months ago. I did research them prior to ordering but I did not find the article posted above or much of the negative aspects. At any rate, should I keep them in the tank or what? Any recommendations regarding this. I can say that they are somwhat predatory. I had a sick fish and they chased him down, latching on. He was doomed I believe but I was suprised by the snails aggressiveness. What could I do with them anyway?

[rshimek]

Hi,

Well, if you already have them, the options seem to be to keep them or kill them. I have gotten them occasionally and inadvertently in live sand. In such situations, I generally just put them in my tank. Some have lived for about a year. Fortunately, one or two of them don't cause any problems. Fifty or so....

You can't return them to nature; doing such with any animal that has been in an aquarium has the potential for an ecological disaster. You can always kill them. Alternatively, if you want them out of your main tank you can put them in your sump or refuge tank instead of the main tank. Here they will scavenge what food they can. If well fed, they produce larvae like clockwork and these will be fed upon once they are up into the tank's water.

I guess the final alternative is to create a small species tank for them. They will do well in a tank of sea water at room temperature. All they need is a layer of sand in the bottom. I have a friend who does neurobiological research on the larvae, and she keeps about 30 in a ten gallon tank on lab bench. Every couple of days she tosses in some fish food to feed them, and every week the tank's water is changed. Under such conditions, they live for years. Probably the potential life span is a couple of decades. If you put about a 3-4 inch layer of sand in the tank, and fluorescent light over it, and then, after the sediments got good and laden with organic material, you could add some temperate sea grass (available from some online vendors), you could have a cheap and relatively interesting Mid-Atlantic sand bottom biotope tank. Such a tank would require very little maintenance compared to a reef tank.

[MyMonkey]

Mid-Atlantic sand bottom biotope tank: Great idea. Thank you. I have posted in my local fish club forum that if anyone wants a few of these come on over. What I have left, I will add to my 10 gallon.

[-TS-Vash]

Well ill tell you what it does not matter i kept 35 and this thread should be long and dead and over i love them i know guys that have had them for years you can do what ever you want to do its not my place to tell you just like its not your place to tell me what to do.

rshimek plz accept apologies I did not see you answered my thread i do value your info and thanks for taking the time to look at my question its just that like i said for every one person i know that says there bad to have i know 2 that say there the best to have im a mamber on 4 forums and this is the same every where most have been closed and deleted over people fighting i didnt want that to happen here i just wanted to get a simple question answered not the same thing i always get every where else.

[cooper9177]

it sounds like this forum is about like the arc, too many politics, not enough fun. That is the hobby, its all about fun and education, and HELPING those who don't know. Not blasting them for asking. We are always there to help. atlanta-smas.org

[thumb]

Can not have been said better cooper9177
I have been reading about these snails for almost a year and for sure these snails are living, breeding and seem to live long happy lives in reef tanks. I have a lot of them and they do better that the snails I have that are reef snails.
I have sent emails to several professors in collages on the east coast who have had many students do major projects with these snails and the one thing they all seem to agree on is how adaptable this snail is.
For that reason and several others most eastern states consider this snail a dangerous invasive pest and find it humorous that any one is worried about its being too warm in the home aquarium.
Yet some well read fellow is always ready to jump on people who enjoy having this snail. If only as many people were concerned about the needless killing of humans going on in the world today.
Sign me a happy Ilyanassa owner.
________________________________________

[capncapo]

That is an amazing coincidence ..... those very same states that have temperate water off their coast huh? Gee, whoda thunk!

[rshimek]

capncapo,

LOL!!! Well said.

As usual, [thanks]

[thumb]

You got me capncapo, as you know most all the states have at least some temperate water off their coast. But these snails are not found or taken off their coasts, they are in swamps, mudflats and inlets where the temps are well above the 82 degree reef tank.
These snails are found in and endure much higher temps and harser conditions than most reef snails.
A constant 82 degrees reef is not found anywhere except a reef tank and is far from the norm for any snail, fish, coral what have you. This environment is used to promote abnormal accelerated growth in the tank, not for humanitarian ( Ron help me with a better word than humanitarian ) reasons. A reef will cool and warm up over 30 degrees during the day. Do any of the big posters tanks come anywhere near that or even try? Then you are stressing the inhabitants.
One of the best uses of the Ilyanassa in the reef tank for me is for food for reef snails. I have over 6 types of reef snails that will only eat the Ilyanassa. My puffers like them too.


Ilyanassa owners UNITE!

[rshimek]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6328810#post6328810 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb

Hi,

You got me capncapo, as you know most all the states have at least some temperate water off their coast. But these snails are not found or taken off their coasts, they are in swamps, mudflats and inlets where the temps are well above the 82 degree reef tank.

They can tolerate warm temperatures for short periods, but are not found regularly in subtropical or tropical waters.

These snails are found in and endure much higher temps and harser conditions than most reef snails.

For short periods, but they do not thrive at such temperatures.

A constant 82 degrees reef is not found anywhere except a reef tank and is far from the norm for any snail, fish, coral what have you.

This is true, see this article (http://www.reefland.com/rho/1105/reefc7.php), but that is not the point. Illynassa normally only see temperatures that high for transitory periods. Their temperature optimum is about 60ºF, although will survive indefinitely at temperatures into the low 70ºF range.

This environment is used to promote abnormal accelerated growth in the tank

No, that is not the case at all; 82º is effectively the average temperature of all of the world's reefs. It is a good normal reef temperature, and not a hot one.

A reef will cool and warm up over 30 degrees during the day.

Many reefs can vary in temperature a lot, but swings of 30º F are found only on high latitude reefs. The averages are listed here (http://www.rshimek.com/reef/tempsal.htm). The average reef world wide swings from about 76ºF to 86ºF annually.

[-TS-Vash]

Like i said for every one that hates the snails i have found 2 or more who love them LOL.

[capncapo]

No one has said anything about hating the snail whatsoever.

To the contrary, unlike you, we care enough for them as to not want to send them to a premature death.

[thumb]

Thank you for your response Doc.
But please let me clarify my statements.

A constant 82 degrees reef is not found anywhere except a reef tank and is far from the norm for any snail, fish, coral what have you.

By this my point is the snails and everything else in the tank are now in very different temps than where they came from. So it seems we now have a new norm.
Please consider at least one example, Red Sea temps can fluctuate 10 degrees in a couple hours with little or no effect on the corals, yet a tank of corals from this same area of the Red Sea where the tank temp is a constant 82 degrees is very often completely wiped out by a increase of a couple degrees over a period of a day or even two. Can the now faster growing coral also be less healthy? This phenomenon seems to decrease at a tank temp of 80 degrees but so does growth.

Next why is the lifespan in the wild used to gauge the norm in the tank? As I have said my Illynassa seem to adapt to a reef tank better and live longer than most reef snails. I have on the average over two dozen different kinds of marine snails to observe but have done no tests to confirm this.

Your 60 degree temperature optimum for the Illynassa is by far the lowest I have seen. 72 degrees is often given and since coral reef average temps start at 65 degrees that is in the ballpark. I know the mangrove swamps I have often found them in Florida are in the 72 degree+ average.

I said 82 degrees is mainly used to promote growth, that is no longer true most have found 84 degrees even better for promoting growth and have kicked it up a notch. Coral tanks are rated on how fast the corals are growing ALWAYS never on how fast the corals are supposed to have grown. Many reef tanks are still at 78-80 degrees the temp recommended 10 years ago.
I read your refs Ron but I do not understand how 82 degrees becomes the average of 76 to 86 degrees. Seems like it is starting to push it. Being on the high end, you lose part of your buffer zone and you need better equipment to maintain oxygen saturation. I feel the only reason to do this is for the added calcification and kicking the whole tank eco system into high gear.

Why am I defending my remarks on Illynassa? I feel this snail has been a major break thru in the marine hobby. I have been able to keep invertebrates that eat only snails as food for the first time. They have to be the easiest to keep, hardest working, cheapest to buy, most written about and a great live food plus you are actually helping the eco system by going and getting them.
Yet just asking about them on reef central gets you blasted ?????????

[Brooks_McClary]

I love all snails. They are some of my favorite critters. Just some I want in my reef and some I don't .

Any opinions on if I want this in my tank? Is it predatory?

P.S. I WILL listen to your advice. lol.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c297/brooksmcclary/snail.jpg

[rshimek]

Hi Brooks,

You have posted this image in one thread. You don't need to double post. I have answered your question in the other thread.

[sihaya]

I love these snails too... that's why it makes me sick to think people are still buying them and forcing them to live in warm water tanks.

I think the problem is still that people don't understand that these snails can live 10-15 years in the wild. So noting the fact that they live 1, 2 or even 3 years in warm water aquariums means nothing. Imagine if aliens came down and took a few humans to be their pets. You'd be horrified if these people-pets only lived 5-10 years with thier alien care-takers. But the aliens might be thinking "wow, look... we kept these earthlings alive for 5 whole years!"

[thumb]

capncapo by your comment that must mean you are not keeping any marine life in a tank or use any live food?
sihaya since keeping just about anything in captivity shortens its life span why do you give money to Reef Central? Do you realize you are promoting a captive reef club?
This thread is on the Illynassarius Obsoleta, does that mean anything to people? Most of the people posting on it do not have any Illynassarius Obsoleta and have never had any.
I have a thread on Illynassarius Obsoleta and same as this one I pointed out I was not looking for input from readers of Illynassarius Obsoleta just people with hands on experience. Just type in Google and up comes thousands of hits on Illynassarius Obsoleta. There is no need for to look for more.
And as far as Dr Ron goes, he does not mind that everyone does not agree with him on everything. Take his comment: you could have a cheap and relatively interesting Mid-Atlantic sand bottom biotope tank. This statement is flat out wrong, first of all there is no such thing as a biotope Mid-Atlantic tank that is only relatively interesting. But that subject belongs in a different thread.

[capncapo]

Thumb,

It seems that no matter how many times Dr. Ron has told you that these snails ARE NOT tropical water snails, you want to disagree. Have you found them in tropical waters?

You claim that they are the "most written about" snail. Do you have any information from a published, peer reviewed author to refute what Dr. Ron is telling you? If so, provide the link and let everyone in on the secret. If not, why keep disagreeing with nothing other than how you "feel" about them?

I wouldn't call someone telling you that they are not tropical animals being blasted. You might get blasted by telling someone who knows a TON more than you do that they are wrong or that they don't know what they are talking about.

You say that you use them for food ..... nothing wrong with that BUT you're not going to keep them for any appreciable length of time therefore, why should you care if they die 15 - 20 years before they would in the wild, right?

You must be in the hobby for reasons other than I. I research every animal that I even think about keeping in my tank. If they aren't 100% suitable, they don't get put in my tank. I rely on experts in the field to give me information concerning my choices and whether they are appropriate for my tank. I try to give the animals everything they need in order to give them the best chance to live as long as they do in the wild. If I can't give it to them, I won't purchase them.

I can't help but feel that you have some stake in these snails being accepted as reef animals. Do you sell them on Ebay?

[sihaya]

I give money to RC so I can use the spellcheck ;) lol

I do have hands on experience with Illynassarius Obsoleta. I ordered them online from Ebay because I, like many people, thought they were "reef snails." Because, after all, that's what the ad says.

But I was an idiot. I didn't do enough research and I wasn't being a smart or ethical consumer. Now a hand full of them are still in my tank a year later and what am I going to do? There's not much I can do except warn others of the lesson I've learned.

And, once again, while I do love Dr Ron, he's not my only source of information. I learned about these snails all by myself. Indeed, I ordered the snails before I even knew of dear Dr. Ron's existence in this world. ;)

Now, there is also another possibility. That is that some of these snails being sold as Illynassarius Obsoleta aren't actually Illynassarius Obsoleta. They could be some other kind of snail from warmer water. This is one of the most frustrating things about this hobby. You can't always be sure of what you have or what you're getting... or where it's from. It really kinds sucks.

[thumb]

capncapo
It seems you have not read my posts I clearly state the reasons for the my statements about Illynassarius Obsoleta .
And again I am speaking from hands on experence with this and many other snails.
I realize you THINK the Illynassarius Obsoleta will die before its time in a reef tank. Name one snail that does not. You say your reef tank meets the needs 100% of all your animals. You are kidding your self.
Yes I will say again I have found them in tropical areas!!!! Will you at least understand this snail is found in swamps and mudflats not out in the water?
What really gets me is while I am collecting these I also collect things like Cassiopea andromeda. Cassiopea andromeda brings out even more self appointed experts than Illynassarius Obsoleta.
Even though I have been raising Cassiopea for years I am told the way I raise them is not possable by people who never even tried to.
That reminds me I ask you again capncapo why are you on this thread?

[thumb]

sihaya
Enjoy your Illynassarius Obsoleta they are not reef snails but will be happy in your reef tank and out last the reef snails. Plus they are a lot of fun to watch always busy.
P.S. How do you work the spell check? I need it.

[capncapo]

"Cassiopea andromeda brings out even more self appointed experts than Illynassarius Obsoleta."

Such as yourself?

You're the one who's kidding themself.

[miztic]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6334164#post6334164 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
capncapo
That reminds me I ask you again capncapo why are you on this thread?

it's a public forum, everyone can post their thoughts. if you don't want people replying to what you post, maybe you should think about not posting your opinions..

[thumb]

capncapo you are soooooooo clever! I can not take it. No I am far from being any kind of expert, just trying to find other people intersted in rasing things that go bump in the swamp. Hey do you still have those mh lights for sale?

[thumb]

miztic
I just think having a topic and trying to go with it is not too much to ask. If you are looking to just throw rocks you know I can not stop you. Lets hear it whats bugging you buddy.

[capncapo]

So just what is it that you expect Dr. Ron to say? That you are right and that he doesnt know what he's talking about?

Don't hold your breath.

You have NOT found these snails in tropical water. You have found them in "swamps and mudflats". I take it that these are saltwater "swamps and mudflats" and as such, the tide comes in and goes out flooding these "swamps and mudflats" with temperate water, right? Not tropical water ......... temperate water.

What temperature do you think the water in these "swamps and mudflats" maintains during the winter months? Reef temperatures?

These snails are adapted to great temperature changes in their environment that can and do meet and possibly even exceed normal reef temperatures BUT they are not adapted to constant reef temperatures.

As far as any MH lights for sale goes, I've never had any for sale.

[miztic]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6334453#post6334453 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
miztic
I just think having a topic and trying to go with it is not too much to ask. If you are looking to just throw rocks you know I can not stop you. Lets hear it whats bugging you buddy.

I didn't see anyone go 'off topic', and if i wanted to throw rocks, I'd be making statements about someone's maturity based on their spelling..

I just thought it was funny that people were getting attacked for posting well meaning honest advice and real science in a public forum..

[sihaya]

Well, I've read several places that they come from colder waters. So I don't expect them to live more than 2-3 years. And if I can find someone with a cooler tank who wants them, I'll give them away. I have no reason to question the authority of my sources (especially since they all seem to say the same thing.)

[thumb]

miztic
spelling? I was the one to point out my bad spelling you can do better than that go man go. And I have pointed out I am speaking from experence not from reading books. My brother and his wife are both marine biologists, they know all the right names, where everthing is from and they have perfect grammer and spelling. But he does not have a clue on how to keep it alive in a tank. The last thing that comes to mind reading your posts is well meaning miztic.

capncapo
Tide? no it does not change the mudflat and mangrove swamp temp much, still hot as all get out in even in the dead of winter. I have not been there in the summer no way crazy hot! but it is good to see you now understand where these guys live. Are you sure about the lights? You were swiching to or away from 400 watts. If not, you got me again dead wrong.
OK who is up next?
As far as data to back up what I am saying I have it, but my organizing of paper work is worse than my grammer or even my spelling and it may be a day or two to get it posted.
Going to bed now but will respond to the next batter in the morning.
I think once you guys loosen up a little some people with experence with these snails will speak up and we can get real.
Cold mangrove swamps! come on capncapo! OK I will bite where can a cold mangrove swamp be found? Have you ever seen any snow in them?

[thumb]

NEW RULE!
I have managed to cull the hecklers to people who support reef central. The new rule is you must also own a copy of Rons book!
I have mine lets see the hands out there!

[capncapo]

Sorry Thumb, never owned or had the desire to own a 400 watt MH.

I didn't realize that there was an area on the east coast with temperate water off its coast that stays that hot during winter. Is that in PA? Care to say just where that would be?

You never did answer my question ........ do you sell these snails?

[gussy]

This thread is funny...

[sihaya]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6334196#post6334196 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb

P.S. How do you work the spell check? I need it.

I don't know why but spell check has disappeared! :(

I guess we'll just have to wait and see about the snails. In 10 years if my snails are still alive I will come back and concede that you were right all along. ;)

[greenbean36191]

Read this paper I cited in the first page of this thread:

Downs, Craig A., et al. 2001. A molecular biomarker system for assessing the health of gastropods (Ilyanassa obsoleta) exposed to natural and anthropogenic stressors. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 259: 189-214.

It explains exactly what you are doing to the snails by keeping them at reef temperatures. It's not a mystery, and you aren't breaking new ground by trying to keep them. There is a reason their range doesn't extend south beyond northern FL or northern Mexico.

coral reef average temps start at 65 degrees that is in the ballpark.
Where are you getting that from? That's not quite the average. That's about 5 degrees from the average yearly minimum.

A constant 82 degrees reef is not found anywhere except a reef tank and is far from the norm for any snail, fish, coral what have you. This environment is used to promote abnormal accelerated growth in the tank, not for humanitarian ( Ron help me with a better word than humanitarian ) reasons.
You're right, it doesn't stay a constant 82 on the reefs. That's the yearly average. That means that on a typical reef, part of the time it's above 82 and part of the time it's below. Lots of people do keep their temperatures in the 80's to promote growth, but it certainly isn't an unnatural or unhealthy temperature as you imply.

I read your refs Ron but I do not understand how 82 degrees becomes the average of 76 to 86 degrees.
Those numbers are not used to calculate the yearly average temperature of 82. They are just used to give you an idea how much things normally vary. Without them, just a yearly average of 82 doesn't mean much. That could mean that the temp stays at a constant 82 year round or that it ranges between 120 degrees and 44 degrees. Both give an average of 82.

Please consider at least one example, Red Sea temps can fluctuate 10 degrees in a couple hours with little or no effect on the corals, yet a tank of corals from this same area of the Red Sea where the tank temp is a constant 82 degrees is very often completely wiped out by a increase of a couple degrees over a period of a day or even two.
There are a few reasons behind this besides keeping the animals at their normal temperatures. 1) overstocking 2) poor oxygenation 3) acclimatization to lower temperatures and more stability. The fluctuation certainly doesn't kill the animals in the wild or in captivity. My tank fluctuates about 6 degrees a day and sometimes as much as 8. I also keep it in the 80's. There has never been a crash or even signs of stress related to the temperature.

[thumb]

greenbean36191
After at least two years of using Reef Central how come you still will not support it?
And again all the rest of you guys HAVE YOU A COPY OF RONS BOOK ? Do you realize how much work and little pay goes in to putting together the data you are using?

[sihaya]

Mike gives more to RC than any other non-team member (well, he and Steven Pro). I'd rather have his time than his $24. And believe it or not, he's a student... he knows all about lots of work for little pay. ;)

And dude, Dr. Ron has practically re-written his whole book and more within these threads.

[greenbean36191]

Do you realize how much work and little pay goes in to putting together the data you are using?
I think I have a pretty good idea. :lol:

[thumb]

Sorry sihaya,
I can not agree, any one who has a reef tank can spare a couple bucks to keep the lights on.
And as for Dr Ron, he has worked a lifetime to put together his data and protect marine life. Yet people have taken his work completely forgranted. Did you know his reef tank sits empty for lack of funds while he works to educate us? Do you really think when Mike uses his materal and maybe sometimes adds something that it makes up for throwing a few dollars his way for a lifes work?
Belive it or not sihaya a lot of the people who make the best things possable for us receive the least pay. A few dollars here and there add up, but you have to start. BUY HIS BOOK and Join Reef Central

[thumb]

greenbean36191

Interests: sea slugs, fast cars, fighter jets, girls, money, soccer, hockey, carnivorous plants

24 bucks Mike You can do it!

[sihaya]

thumb-- I hate to say this, but when your arguements boil down to "you're not paying your RC dues" it's time to throw in the towel.

If you're right about the snails, then you're right... if you're not going to take the word of scientists and researchers, then I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[greenbean36191]

24 bucks Mike You can do it!
I'll give you my wallet and you can pick up the rest.

[thumb]

sihaya
My point is these guys claim not to have the snails in a reef tank because it is a uncaring thing to do and they care. So I say prove you care! Become a member, buy Rons book.
These guys will fight for days to prove they are right, but so far not one will put his money where his mouth is. Does this make any sense to you?

[sihaya]

Well, honestly I don't know who has the book and who doesn't. But Thumb... we have better than Dr. Ron's book here... we have Dr. Ron himself telling you about these snails!

Maybe these snails you're collecting aren't even I.O. Who knows for sure? A lot of these snails look a like.

[thumb]

I know why pay for something you are getting for free?
How about this sihaya, if you buy Rons book I will send you a free T Shirt!!!!
And I promise you having the book is still worth much more than the price.
And no that is not my last offer I really want to get this moving, LOL !

[TippyToeX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6339209#post6339209 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
sihaya
My point is these guys claim not to have the snails in a reef tank because it is a uncaring thing to do and they care. So I say prove you care! Become a member, buy Rons book.
These guys will fight for days to prove they are right, but so far not one will put his money where his mouth is. Does this make any sense to you?

You know, it makes no sense to me at all.

Why does he have to prove anymore that he cares not only for RC but for improving the education of it's membership? I think the only people to question how much he does for RC and the hobby at large are the ones who do not read his many educational and informative posts.

[sihaya]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6339779#post6339779 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
I know why pay for something you are getting for free?
How about this sihaya, if you buy Rons book I will send you a free T Shirt!!!!
And I promise you having the book is still worth much more than the price.
And no that is not my last offer I really want to get this moving, LOL !

Well, I have his book... but if you're giving out free T-shirts... :D

[SuperNerd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6335644#post6335644 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
NEW RULE!
I have managed to cull the hecklers to people who support reef central. The new rule is you must also own a copy of Rons book!
I have mine lets see the hands out there!

::raises hand in excitation:: I own it so I guess I can play too. :D



thumb,

I think you’ve went over to the “bad place.� :lol: There’s really no need to be so confrontational. Most of the people here are trying to help you, as well as the animals, out. :) It appears you enjoy arguing more than discussing the wellbeing of the creatures in your tank and have no trouble posting remarks that ruffle peoples’ feathers… yet seem to struggle significantly not only when it comes to citing your own references and backing up your own claims, but learning from your previous experiences as well. I honestly do not believe many of the other moderators would have been as lenient or patient with your rhetoric or style of communication, the second time around, as Dr. Shimek has been with you so far... :rollface:

[thumb]

-Amy-
Sorry Amy, you lost me. I am saying just buying critter instead of another does not make you better than others. But if you want to show how good and smart you are support Ron and Reef Central as a good start.

[thumb]

OK Supernerd I will bite,
What do you want me to back up Buddie?

[TippyToeX]

I think you lost me too Thumb. I was pointing out that paying RC and buying Dr. Ron's book does not show how good and smart you are. :)

I think they are both fine ideas don't get me wrong. But if they are not done it does not mean they are any less of a reef keeper.

[thumb]

Hey Supernerd ,
You accuse me of lying in front of everyone and then you run away???

[thumb]

Anyone who has Rons book send me your address, I think I have some new marine depot shirts here I can send you. I think this thread is slowing down. Anyone what to talk about Cassiopea???
I can start a new thread! Cassiopea will blow you away it is so fun to watch!! And cheap! Cassiopea is another of our countries pests that people are more than glad to see you haul away.
But do not forget Illynassarius Obsoleta owners unite! Be proud and stand firm with pride!!!!

[thumb]

Hey greenbean36191
My response to that post of yours did not make it to the broard. I had a lot of questions on your very interesting post. But one thing that is bugging me is why do you use your tank with its large fluctuations as a reason to disprove the effect of constant tank temps?
Great post Mike! Sorry my response got lost.

[greenbean36191]

Conventional reefing wisdom says everything in my tank should be dead. The scientific literature says my tank should be fine. My tank is fine.

[thumb]

Wow I like it!
If I was to say that, one word needs moving.
Conventional reefing wisdom says everything in my tank should be dead. The scientific literature says my tank should be dead. My tank is fine.
But I can not keep my baby seahorses alive. I have 15 pair of adults that are fine, but no luck with babies :(

[Telgian]

Tha' Doc 's away, so us kids do...

I dunno, what would the proper particle size be to have 100ml of mud hold together long enough for use as a projectile???

Hmmm...

Wonder if this will make the thread murkier.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/74878Jellyfish-med.jpg

:D

[greenbean36191]

The scientific literature says my tank should be dead.
Why do you say this?

[thumb]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The scientific literature says my tank should be dead.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why do you say this?

Well thats a very long answer Mike, so how using Illynassarius Obsoleta as a case in point?

The scientific literature says Illynassarius Obsoleta will not do well and be dead long before its time.

The scientific literature says tropical snails will do will and live a long happy life in my tank.

But the the opposite is true.

I feel this is because of the logistics involved. The tropical snail for the most part comes from its natural habitat and then goes thru hell and back before it makes it to your tank. In this third world it starts off with the collector getting 50 cents for the fish that will cost 50 -150 dollars in the LFS. Do we need to wonder how much care the snail gets. Its a wonder the 50 dollar fish makes it.

Now we have the Illynassarius Obsoleta that is all collected here in this country. If you go to to places this snail is collected for sale. It is like dumpster diving. This snail is the junk yard dog of snails.This snail is tough as nails and well treated by its American collector. For the most part from the time the collector picks it up on its living conditions are greatly improved.

On top of that in this case scientific literature is being used to give yuppies another reason to pat themselves on the back for their favorite pastime of mass consuming of cheap third world products AND yet another reason to pass judgment on others.

[thumb]

Sorry Mike.
I made a mistake. The third world collector of the 50-150 dollar fish is lucky to get 5 cents for it.

[capncapo]

Thumb,

Unfortunately, no matter how hard you try to convince others that these are wonderful snails, which they very well may be, they are not a tropical species. Period .... end of story.

Now, be smart and give up on it. They are not reef animals.

I wouldn't be saying too much about anyone passing judgement on others until you look in the mirror. You do your share.

[thumb]

capncapo
Where have you been? I missed you Man!
I have a idea, how about we call them a Pest species?

[thumb]

capncapo
One more thought, as you know from reading these threads myself and many others have seen that Illynassarius Obsoleta breeds like crazy in reef tanks. Many of my snails for several generations are not only living in tropical water but they and a few of their generations before them have not ever been in anything but tropical water.
How any generations must they go thru before it is a offical scientific tropical born snail?

[SuperNerd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6340385#post6340385 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
Hey Supernerd ,
You accuse me of lying in front of everyone and then you run away???


thumb, let’s try to remain civil here. You know I’m intimidated by people who can correctly spell more than three words at a time.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6339942#post6339942 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
OK Supernerd I will bite,
What do you want me to back up Buddie?

Once again, there’s no need to be so confrontational.
The majority of the points you make seem like they’re just thrown up into the air and when people question your references you either coincidentally forget to reply to them, get upset and start making comments about your… “Free T-shirt giveaways,� ridicule them for not buying Dr. Shimek’s book or paying for premium membership on RC, or resort to telling them how much you "miss them" in an attempt to get them mad. I never accused you of lying. I said you have difficulty citing your references, backing up your claims, and learning from your past experiences. You obviously did not like reading that and now feel the need to taunt me because you want to get me into some sort of verbal fist fight with you.

Sorry, I have more important things to do with my time than sit on a computer waiting for you to reply to my posts. As I said before it seems all you want to do is argue and make fun of people who care about the wellbeing of the animals they will or will not keep in their tanks. Your arguments have no support, no basis, and in all honesty are simply a waste of time. Don’t bother replying to me again…this will be the last time I waste my energy responding to one of your remarks.

[capncapo]

Thumb,

Birth in tropical water does not make it a tropical animal.

That only happens when the animal naturally occurs in tropical waters. These don't. You can't change that fact.

Their natural range is temperate water. You can't change that fact.

You are fighting a losing battle. You can't change that fact.

[thumb]

capncapo
All I have tried to put accross is they do as good or better in the reef tank. All the places that have been used to prove they are not a tropical snail is not where they naturally occur. Thats why I first pointed out they are a invasive species in those locations.

[thumb]

SuperNerd
You like to start off telling me not to be confrontational, then you start right in being very confrontational. You make statements that are completely false and then run and hide. Nothing you have stated is trure. You think that just because you are more articulate than me that you can intimidate me and make your self look good just by throwing out some well worded falsehoods at me. The thing that really upsets you is after the time you have spent buddying up to Dr Ron he did not shut me down the first time I challenged your false statements. Run away Supernerd it is better than trying to back up your statements.
The truth is Dr Ron,s good hearted atemp to get people to think about their selection of marine animals created a goon squad that has been terrorizing the internet making horrible comments on sellers sites making them look like they are cheating people and/or causing great harm to marine animals.
And all just to pump up their egos. Wake up, putting marine animails in little glass tanks is not doing any of them any good.

[Cluckr7]

Thumb that's pretty arrogant and ignorant to assume that collectors from different countries are inferior to American collectors. Have you actually seen how they collect things or are you just assuming? My friend used to work at a major American shipping company and he told me if he got bored, he and his coworkers would kick the "Fragile" boxes around for fun.

Like I said, it's quite ignorant and very arrogant to think that foreign workers are inferior and less compassionate than American workers.

In another note, I agree with all the others that your argument about not donating to RC is totally irrelavent. Greenbean's opinion is one of the most respected here, and the fact that you donated $24 and he didn't isn't going to sway any opinions.

[capncapo]

OK Thumb, where are they considered to be an invasive species in tropical waters? Provide the link.

[SuperNerd]

Oh thumb,
I said I wouldn’t reply to another one of your remarks… but you’ve set yourself up again…

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6348315#post6348315 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
You like to start off telling me not to be confrontational, then you start right in being very confrontational.

Okay, I’ll be nicer to you. But you should have expected a reaction similar to mine in response to some of the words you chose to include in the statements you made to me earlier. It’s not fair to assume all people will just take your verbal abuse quietly.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6348315#post6348315 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
You make statements that are completely false and then run and hide. Nothing you have stated is trure.

Prove me wrong then please. Quote the statements I have made about you, tell me how they are wrong and LIST EXACTLY WHERE YOU ARE GETTING ALL OF YOUR INFORMATION FROM.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6348315#post6348315 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
You think that just because you are more articulate than me that you can intimidate me and make your self look good just by throwing out some well worded falsehoods at me.

I’m not trying to intimidate you and I never said I was more articulate than you. It is you who is insecure about the way you write and are again sidestepping the real issue about WHERE YOU GET YOUR REFERENCES FROM.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6348315#post6348315 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
The thing that really upsets you is after the time you have spent buddying up to Dr Ron he did not shut me down the first time I challenged your false statements.

Either that or he is on vacation until next Monday and probably hasn’t read much, if any, of this thread since he left on the 21st of December. :) http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=733684
In any event, I was merely pointing out how some of the other moderators would not have favored your style of communication and do not mind that Dr. Shimek has not “shut you down� after challenging my statements.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6348315#post6348315 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
Run away Supernerd it is better than trying to back up your statements.

You keep saying that I’m running away but the fact is that you are the one running away from proving the credibility of the statements you make. My comments were merely an attempt to find truth in yours. You are the one who still finds it difficult to back up what you say WITH REFERENCES instead of angry words.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6348315#post6348315 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
The truth is Dr Ron,s good hearted atemp to get people to think about their selection of marine animals created a goon squad that has been terrorizing the internet making horrible comments on sellers sites making them look like they are cheating people and/or causing great harm to marine animals.

thumb, I’m sure not all the people who are conscientious about the animals they put in their tanks are part of some secret “Dr. Ron terror goon squad.� Please stop sidestepping the issue and TELL ME WHERE YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6348315#post6348315 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thumb
Wake up, putting marine animails in little glass tanks is not doing any of them any good.

Thank you for pointing that out. I was actually on my way to get a baby killer whale until you told me that useful piece of information. :lol:
thumb, most of us already know about the negative impact the marine aquarium trade has on the reefs…again you are sidestepping the real issue I brought up in my previous posts asking WHERE ARE YOU GETTING YOUR INFORMATION FROM?

We can keep going at this but our debate has the potential to truly not only be a waste of energy…but a waste of time and can get us both booted from RC unless you can provide LINKS TO YOUR INFORMATION and we both refrain from further kindergarten tactics of verbal discussion.

I don’t care if I’m wrong and I don’t care if you’re right…all I want to know is where you are getting your information from.

[greenbean36191]

feel this is because of the logistics involved. The tropical snail for the most part comes from its natural habitat and then goes thru hell and back before it makes it to your tank. In this third world it starts off with the collector getting 50 cents for the fish that will cost 50 -150 dollars in the LFS. Do we need to wonder how much care the snail gets. Its a wonder the 50 dollar fish makes it.

Now we have the Illynassarius Obsoleta that is all collected here in this country. If you go to to places this snail is collected for sale. It is like dumpster diving. This snail is the junk yard dog of snails.This snail is tough as nails and well treated by its American collector. For the most part from the time the collector picks it up on its living conditions are greatly improved.
Well that might make sense if either of your claims were warranted. First of all, most of the snails in the hobby aren't tropical. Turbo, "margaritas", some most Astraea, and some Cerith snails are collected on the west coast of the US and in northern Mexico. It's no surprise these snails don't live out their normal life expectancies in our tanks.

And what about the snails in the hobby that really are found at reef temps? Nassarius vibex, nerites, some Astraea, some Cerith, and some Trochus. Any guesses where they come from? Florida. The only snails you're likely to find that came from a third world country are some Trochus, Nassarius distortus, bumblebee snails, and whatever hitchhikes in.

I find it hard to beleive that the collectors on the west coast and FL are treating the snails significantly worse than the guys on the rest of the east coast, especially since I've seen pictures of tanks so full of Ilynassa that the bottom of the tank isn't visible and the snails are literally stacked two deep and I've seen how the snails are shipped with hundreds in a single bag.

[capncapo]

The truth is Dr Ron,s good hearted atemp to get people to think about their selection of marine animals created a goon squad that has been terrorizing the internet making horrible comments on sellers sites making them look like they are cheating people and/or causing great harm to marine animals.


Thats the answer to my question that I've been waiting for. You sell these snails. No wonder you want someone to admit they are wonderful and will do just fine in a reef.

Killing animals for profit. A noble cause.

[-TS-Vash]

See what you get thumb you have to do what they say and kill the snails you have or else your MAD CRAZY!!!!!! lol I guess we have lost our mind and dudes is the poor mans spelling all you can pick on to try and anger him lol i feel so sorry for someone that is that simple LOL. The truth is that every thing that can be found at the pet store was found in the wild and brought to the home and some one said they were crazy to but you know what if your like me and do what you want you get a great pet. And just to keep you all up to date i did a head count and i have 100 now and keep them in my refugium now to. To all of you who can think for your self good luck with your great cheap hardy snails. Greenbean your head must be so big you get stuck in the door way LOL.

[rshimek]

Bullsh.. coefficient exceeded.

Closing this one, too.