Help for a newbie?

[donna4909]

Is there maybe anyone near me that could help me get started, or at least share some info? I've been wanting to set up a nano/pico reef, but I don't really know how to go about it.

I live near Morristown, TN. I've tried asking at the LFS (Fish Fair), but I can't really converse with them. I have a hard time understand foreign accents, and the store owners are Chinese.

Thanks,
Donna

[RCS]

There really is enouhg information out there to fill a book, and a startup thread will necessarily have a LOT of information on it and be excessively long...

Thankfully, some fine folks out there have actually written books that would help! :D Bob Fenner's The Conscientious Marine Aquarist is an excellent place to start, and will really help lay the groundwork for getting into the hobby: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1890087033/qid=1124946477/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-8368418-1648937?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

If you don't happen to have any aquatic experience at all, then Michael Paletta's The New Marine Aquarium might be a better choice: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1890087521/qid=1124946612/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-8368418-1648937?v=glance&s=books

Either one will get you off to the right start, but there's a few words of caution I'll throw in:

1. do NOT cycle/start your tank with damsels. In addition to doing serious damage to the fish, they can be a pain to get out. Since you're planning on doing a small tank, cycling with a small amount of cured live rock would be the best course to take.

2. ask the same question of multiple people before making any decisions. It's always nice to have multiple thoughts ona subject, and there is some bad advice floating around out there. Usually you'll get 3/4 of the people telling you good stuff, and it tends to be right most of the time. There are plenty of good expert forums on RC if you have any doubts.

3. research any purchases before you make them. Will that fish/coral do well in your setup? Will it stay small enough for the tank? What kind of lighting do you need? Research (and asking questions!) can save a lot of time and aggravation down the road.

Also, feel free to come out to any of the club meetings. There's a lot of good people and lots to learn, so it's good to have a support group!

[donna4909]

Well, that's the thing. I have no idea what corals and stuff I want. I guess some softies would be best, since I've been told they're the easiest to care for. Also, I have no idea what would survive in 4 WPG.

I don't want any SW fish yet. I mostly just want some colorful corals and maybe a crab. It is a 2.5 gallon tank, after all.

Also, how does cycling work for SW? Wouldn't the cycle kill the live sand and rock? I know Bio-Spira has a SW formula, but I'm guessing that's pretty useless without fish.

I'll check the local library tomorrow. ;-)

[janasleah]

Donna,

The Knox County library has very few marine aquarium books; maybe the Hamblen County library is better, but....If you can, shop at a Borders or Barnes and Noble, or see if the LFS has any good books. Also, just spend a ton of time surfing on RC, nano-reef.com, wetwebmedia, etc. I regularly visit nano-reef.com, because I have a nano tank and not too many folks do, locally. There is an excellent Beginners Forum, and even a thread for beginners on how to set up, etc.

The cycle may indeed kill some of the life on the LR, but a lot of stuff is pretty tough and will survive or come back. I think the additives are OK, but you really just have to be patient. I gave my tank 5 weeks before I added any critters. Of course, I did have some hitchhikers on the live rock, but they were on their own :lol: .

As you may have read, watts per gallon is a very rough way to figure the appropriate amount of light. I think the tank depth and type of lighting are important to consider. With that said, you might be able to keep mushroom corals, ricordia and zooanthids with low light. I think you're right about no fish; it would be hard to keep a tank that small stable if you had the bioload a fish would add.

I have a 5g nano reef that's been set up for 9 months. I'm still very much a newbie, but so far so good. I have family in Morristown, and try to make the trip up every couple of months, so maybe we could hook up when I'm up that way. Also, I really recommend you come to a meeting; folks are very nice and patient when it comes to answering (possibly) stupid questions.

Hope that helps!
Jan Lester

[Angela Short]

Where near moristown are you located? MY hometown is Rogersville and I lived in Morristown for years! I stoped by fish fair last week and I was appalled at the conditions he was keeping huge show quality fish in!! They are very overpriced on everything saltwater and I agree he is very short and doesn't explain things well on top off poor english. They have great prices on FW and the FW fish all look great but his SW side is awfull. I guess it all boils down to supply and demand for his prices as the next closest one east is in kingsport and west is in knoxville. You will be very limited in such a small tank. Your swings in all the parameters may be more than you should attempt as a newbie. Can you trade the barbs in and put the male betta in the 2.5? I have had a 10, 20, 29, reef and now have a 5 gallon and a 80 and the 5 gallon has proven to be the hardest to keep balanced by far. A 10 is perfect for a 96 watt powerquad from coralife and they are less than $90 on-line. You can keep about anything (in reason) under that. If you are seriouse about getting into SW the 10 is a better choice to learn on, more forgiving. Join ETRC and go to the meets. You will learn a lot and can get tons of frags for pennies to the dollar off retail from members. Well worth the membership fee. I would almost bet a library wouldn't have anything up to date on saltwater but its worth a shot. You are in the right place to start out right and be successful. Asking questions!

[Angela Short]

I have sat in many barns and nobles drinking coffee and reading there selection of SW books for free :) Oh and in the 10 you could add a pretty royal gramma and a nice clown........

[RCS]

You may want to consider something larger, especially for your first marine tank. The water level, and thus salinity, can vary a lot quickly in a smaller tank, and it's harder to keep the parameters in line.

Leather corals are probably your best bet, but you'll want to start with some small frags in a tank that small. Shoot me a PM, I have four different kinds available I can frag out, and I'm sure there's other members in the club as well.

Xenia might be a bit touchy for the tank, especially if the pH tends to drift down quickly.

Crabs are generally poor choices for reef tanks, as just about any crab can truly be a danger. A few small snails and perhaps a shrimp might be a better bet (shrimp can be sensitive to changes in salinity as well though, so proper setup and monitoring is needed). I can also get you a few small cerith snails from my tank if need be.

What type of lighting do you have? The watts per gallon rule can be very misleading, especially in a smaller tank. 4wpg may sound like a lot, but that's only 10w on a 2.5g tank, and hardly any light at all. You may be able to do a few mushrooms. Power compacts would probably be the way to go for a tank that small, and a pair of 9-13w PC lights should be sufficient for some softies. If you've already got a hood, it's easy to retrofit a better lighting setup into it:

http://www.ahsupply.com/twox.htm

[Fishboy42]

Donna, I live in Jefferson City, so I make the trip to Knoxville for meetings too (and for school). I may actually be very close to you depending on where in Morristown you live, since I'm about 200 yards from the Hamblen county line (one way I know this is because when they plow the snow off the streets, they stop about that far from my house!).

I agree with what has been said about tank size. A 10 or 20 would be a good starter size as a small tank, yet it's large enough to be stable. It is difficult to maintain corals in very small reefs, although it can be done.

Angela, I agree with your assessment of the FishFair. Mr. Yip doesn't speak English very well and probably isn't your best resource. I went there last year, probably for the last time. Mr. Yip's son is a friend of mine (perfect english btw), but as far as the store, the saltwater section is irresponsibly run/managed.

If you can make it out to a meeting, there are lots of us that I'm sure would be willing to help and to get you started, even to get you some easy-to-keep frags. I've got all the books mentioned here and several others that may be of help if you wanted to borrow them.

ETRC Website:
http://www.easttnreefclub.com/

[donna4909]

I'm actually in Bulls Gap, if anyone's heard of this tiny little town. *lol* It's about 20 minutes away from Morristown, Rogersville, or Greeneville. We're a bit in the middle of everything.

I could probably take the cherry barbs back, and move the male betta to a different tank.

However, with the 10 gallon tank, lighting is a huge cost factor. I work at Taco Bell, so you can imagine my budget. That's part of the reason I wanted to do the Mini Bow. I think all the lighting it would need is maybe an upgrade to the 20W 50/50 compact bulb.

Even with using a 20w bulb, I'd have to find someone to modify the hood for me since the bulb is longer.

If I did do the 10 gallon tank, what's the cheapest suitable light for easy corals? $90 is just not in my price range. :(

[gflat65]

If you ran two 20W 50/50's, you'd be back to 4wpg. I have a 5 gallon at work with only one 20W and keep zoas, a sarco, mushrooms, and capnella in it. I agree that you should start with a larger tank. Smaller means more sensitivity. I do water changes on the 5 gallon from my 125, so it is a little easier for me to keep the smaller tank in check. Welcome to the addiction;).

[Angela Short]

Some of my best freinds live in Bulls Gap on......Buzards Roost Road. Yes only in a town that small :) I go over there every time I am home. I worked at the old Dairy Dream when the Jink's owened it for ever in the early 90's. Spent a lot of time in the Gap! Small world. As far as tanks go I hate to be discouraging but it is a crazy expensive hobby. I am sure you are finding that out fast by surfing around. I have the 20 watt coralife bulb you are talking about over my 5 and have good results with it. I am actually gonna put another one in. But the bulb is $20 locally so that would go a long way on a better light if you save a while. I had a cheap peice of glass cut at a local glass company for the top so the power quad could sit right on it in my 10. You would be dying to upgrade in no time to a bigger tank anyways ( notice how many times I have :) ) especially when you see all the cool things you can keep. 2.5 gal. you would be very limited and no cute nemo. If you are a young reefer, just guessing from taco bell, people love to help them out with frags to get them started. If you are still wanting to go with the 2.5 we will still help all we can though! What kind of filteration does it have? Is it one of those little deals like wal-mart has which is all built together?

[Fishboy42]

Hah, I know where that is (lived in Greeneville for a short while), unfortunately that means you are quite a haul from west Knoxville.

About lighting. I found a site that sells affordable lighting.

http://www.aquatraders.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=25

It may be the kind of thing where you get what you pay for, but several here on RC have posted positive responses about their power compact lighting. I'm setting up a softie reef and didn't want to break the bank, so I thought I'd experiment and ordered a light from them. I can let you know how it looks and works when I install it if you think you'd order one from them too.

People like to bash the cheap products, but sometimes they work as well as the "name" brands. I've got a 4-year-old JBJ fixture that's still going strong. I thought at first that I had made a mistake in purchasing it, but the corals did/do great. It's not perfect, but it definitely gets the job done.

[Fishboy42]

Wow, everyone posted at once! Hmm, 2.5 is small for a clown, but you could easily keep a little Nemo in a 10 if you wanted, and I can hook you up :D

[easttn]

I have a ton of stuff your welcome to rummage through, tank, lights, pvc, tubes, overflows, lots of stuff. I'm in Jonesborough.

Charles

[Angela Short]

What kind of lights you have Charles? I have a freind wanting a start up light set for softies on a 55.

[easttn]

Dunno, they were inherited when a friend gave me everything he had when he got out 2 years ago. I'll look this w/e.

[donna4909]

I don't know if I fall into the category of young reefer or not, but I'm 20.

Hmm... will a 10 gallon need a sump and skimmer and all that good stuff?

The tank I have is the Mini-Bow 2.5, which comes with the internal whisper filter. I was planning on replacing it with the AquaClear Mini (20), and turning the filter into a refugium.

Also, what's a good price for live rock? It's $6.95 a pound at Fish Fair.

And is this the light I would need for the 10 gallon?

24" 65 watt (http://www.aquatraders.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=132)

Charles, I'll send you a PM. Thanks for the offer!

And thank you to everyone else for being so welcoming and friendly!

[Angela Short]

You wouldn't need to go that crazy with a skimmer and sump, just a gallon water change a week is the way I went. No offence ment by young if any was taken :). OMGosh That is real cheap on that light link you gave. I was talking about a coralife powerquad but this sounds good for the money. The powerquad is 96 watts but I also have a cheap off brand I liked just as well with the seperate antinics for dawn to dusk effect. Orbit I think is the name. I wonder if you could do 2 and get one antic and one 12000k instead of 2 50/50's. That would be sweet. I thought he was higher than that on rock. It can be higher than that around here but about $6 is average.

[donna4909]

No offence taken. :-) I just didn't know what you considered young. ;) Am I young? *lol*

Anyway, the 10 gallon is out of the question for now. I simply cannot afford to light it, buy live rock and sand, etc. I don't have hundreds of dollars at my disposal right now. :(

Maybe I could do a 5.5 gallon? How much lighting would be needed? I can't afford to buy special fixtures, so if 2 of the Coralife 20w 50/50 compacts would work, I could do that.

[RCS]

I work at Taco Bell, so you can imagine my budget.

<-Will gladly help modify for Meximelts. :D

I've heard good and bad things about the AquaTraders stuff...it's off-bran equipment, so not as reliable as some of the better brands out there, but it should do the trick for a while. I'd be a little leery, as I've purchased some similar lighting before, and while the ballasts turned out to be nice (Workhorse 7s), the bulbs...well, between a friend and I, we went through a half-dozen replacement bulb in about a months before we said to heck with it and bought brand-name bulbs.

It shouldn't be hard to modify a 10g strip light with a 32/36w power compact setup: http://www.ahsupply.com/36-55w.htm

The 36w setup is what you'd need. Kit is complete with everything except the bulb for $42.

There's also the 20" Aqualight for under $50 complete: http://cgi.ebay.com/20-AQUALIGHT-SINGLE-LINEAR-STRIP-SALTWATER-NEW_W0QQitemZ7709131967QQcategoryZ46314QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

One thing to keep in mind is that the wpg rule is almost useless on smaller tanks (and really a very poor guideline even on larger tanks). Having a 20w bulb on a 2.5g tank, while it works out to 8wpg, is still not a lot of light however you look at it. Works out to be about the same amount of light due to depth in a 5-10g tank, even though the wpg number goes down quite a bit. And comparing wattage from different types of bulbs can be misleading. 100w of incandescent light is not equal to 100w of FL light is not equal to 100w of metal halide lighting.

[RCS]

Even better: $32+shipping: http://cgi.ebay.com/20-Aqualight-1x28-watt-lamp_W0QQitemZ4331928866QQcategoryZ46314QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Here's the entire link: http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&satitle=aqualight+20%22&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&bs=Search&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search&fgtp=

I've purchased before from the users Aquacave and cleple. Can't go wrong with either.

[Angela Short]

My little coralife just screws in and does a good enouph job for my softies on a tight budget. But mine were $20 each so you are looking at $40. The hood fred mentioned is a better deal IMO. I just gave 3 frags to a 15 year old last meet = young reefer. I guess we all could be concidered "young" as far as starting out as a newbie without much knowledge of salwater though. Enouph said about age, I should have said "young adult" :) Hobbies are a great way to have a feeling of accomplishment among other things. I worked at resturants till I was in my 20's and they don't hardley pay enouph to go drop a ton on a choice colony at a LFS. The fact is if you get seriouse about a proper set-up and do your reasearch like you are doing, club members are always willing to help people out with a mushroom or polyp or two of a zoanthid to help get you started. Some of my favorite things have come from members for a very small price over a LFS. As far as sand, some use regular playsand for $3.50 a bag and some use crushed coral for about $10 a bag. The live sand from most fish stores is nothing more than wet aggronite (SP?) with good bacteria. No critters or nothing are in it so its not worth the money IMO. Just buy dry sand and let your live rock seed it with bacteria to save money.

[RCS]

I use the playsand method, mostly because of cost and the fact I use a lot of live rock.

The live sand generally doesn't have any critters in it per se, but there are all sorts of eggs, cysts and other things just waiting to bust out like in live rock, so it can be a lot more than simply sand, water and bacteria.

Definitely try and make a meeting, I've got tons of frags, I'm sure I can get you a few to start off with.

[gflat65]

You could probably get donations of live sand from people. It doesn't take much for a 5 gallon. Two 20W 50/50's would be more than enough light (unless you were talking sps, clams, etc.). I run a hang on the back Regent filter (similar to a Biowheel 125-small little Walmart filter), a Rio 400 and a heater. A one gallon water change every week or two would do the trick. There would be little need for most additives because you'd have to do regular water changes. As far as filling it with frags, that will be easy, too. Clubs are great for that (not to mention a 5 gallon fills up pretty quick).

[Angela Short]

Thanks for the clear up on the live sand Fred. The kind here looks just like plain 'ol araganight (sp?), just wet. I figured they cultured it in mass quanities and bagged it up. So it comes from the ocean?

[donna4909]

Could I use Estes marine sand? I can get it relatively cheap, and I love the whiteness of it.

Also, when mixing 1 gallon of water for the weekly water change, could I just mix it in the jug with an air pump?

[donna4909]

Oh, and I also did some searching on corals. I think I might be interested in these:

-Green Star Polyps
-Cabbage Leather
-Mushrooms

How much wattage will these need in a 5.5 gallon tank?

[gflat65]

Very little light needed. Under one 20W 50/50, those three will all do fine.

[Angela Short]

:thumbsup:
I mix my one gallon a week in a milk jug with a air stone, works great. I wonder if fish fair has RODI water?

[janasleah]

I haven't ever been to Fish Fair, but if their tanks look rough I'd feel leery of their water. You can get RO water at Wal-Mart for $.39/gallon; that's what I'm doing these days for top-off water. I do get some water from Aquarium for water changes, but I live a lot closer to the store than Bull's Gap! :lol:

Lots of us could give you a bit of live sand, a few pieces of live rock rubble, or some frags ( purple mushrooms, anyone? ;) ). If you're patient, you can start off with some dead rock and play sand, then "innoculate" it w/the live stuff and give it time to grow some critters. That way you wouldn't need a lot of equipment right away, either, since there wouldn't be much demand for light or much bioload to start with. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you start off with just a powerhead? (I did...maybe I was just lucky...).

The 2.5g bowfront does need some mods to the hood to accept anything more than a 10w Coralife 50/50. My daughter has one for a guppy tank (anyone need some GUPPIES? :eek1: ), and the 10w fits fine and is enough for plants; but I tried putting on a Millenium 1000 HOB and the slot for the little Whisper just isn't big enough. I think the Millenium is the narrowest HOB. I just haven't gotten around to borrowing my Dad's dremel to do surgery yet...The 5.5 sounds much easier to deal with, to me.

[RCS]

Most shrooms and leathers will do fine under 20w, but the green star polyps will fare better with more. They're pretty photosynthetic, and most places/people will recommend medium-high lighting for them. All three would do fine under power compacts.

As for life in the sand, I'm sure it will vary by manufactuer, but a quick search indicates the following:

Arag-Alive: collected on sand bars in the Bahamas
Nature's Ocean Bio-Live Sand: from the ocean

I'm sure there are more out there, but straight from the ocean appears to be the popular standard, so there should be some "extras" in addition to the bacteria as well.

[donna4909]

But how would the GSP do under 40 watts? I'm planning on getting 2 of the 20 watt compacts.

I don't really want "extras" in the sand.

I'm afraid I'll get something in there that isn't suitable for the tank. I don't want to kill anything

[RCS]

Highly unlikely you'd get anything that would cause problems. Much more likely to come in on the live rock, but even then it's fairly rare overall. "Extras" in the sand refers more to the beneficial organisms, such as amphipods and copepods, mini brittle-stars and other things that help clean up detritus and keep your sand bed healthy. You can start with mostly play sand or aragonite and add a little bit of live sand to kick it off.

If you're talking about the screw-in type 20w bulbs, remember that they're round as well and half the light is going to be wasted going up. One of the benefits of most good power compact setups is the reflector. You may want to talk to some of the folks who keep GSP under lower-level lighting setups. I keep mine currently under halides, but have had good results with power compacts before as well.

[gflat65]

I've got two different types of GSP's in my 5 gallon at work. I'm only currently running one 20W 50/50 spiral. They are open all the time, so I assume they are happy. They've been in there for about two months, but there hasn't been too much growth. I'm attributing that to the adjustment period;). I have a sarcophyton, several different zoas, a capnella, the GSP's, several different mushrooms, and several different xenia. So far no issues with anyone and lighting. I'm thinking of adding a second bulb, though, so I can test some Elkhorn and monti caps...

[donna4909]

How would this light work?

http://www.aquariumguys.com/12aqualight.html

It's 36 watts total. I'd just have to figure out a way to get a 12" light above a 16" tank...

[gflat65]

That should give you a better light spread than the screw in's. For a quick fix, you can cut some PVC (~1/2" or so) as long as the tank is wide (front to back). Then cut out a notch on either end for it to recess into the tank trim a little. Then the PVC would sit somewhat steadily on top of the trim (but fit down in it a little) and the fixture just sits on top. The biggest potential issue is heat from th lights. If there is decent airflow in the room near the tank, it should be too much if an issue. This can all be done with a hacksaw. If you are at all handy with wood, a quick three sided box with a lid would work to mount the lights in. Then you would have to just remove the whole canopy to get into the tank (not an issue with a tank this size). You can be creative and make a flip top lid, etc., depending on how handy you are. HTH.

[RCS]

You might want to see how much extra length the mountin legs give as well; they may be all you need: http://www.aquariumguys.com/blackaqualight1.html

[gflat65]

Ahh. Then theres that. Looks like you'd gain at least 2" per side, so there you go.

[donna4909]

Well, I've got my 5.5 tank ordered. I just hope it arrives soon. :D I had to have the pet store to special order it, and I'm anxious to get everything started.

I think I'm going to set up the 2.5 MiniBow as well. I have an Aqua-Tech 5-15 filter that fits perfectly on the back. I can toss in some live rock and sand, and let it start cycling. What should I put in the filter? Standard media or something else? I'll probably upgrade the lighting and add a mushroom some time down the road.

Any info on next months meeting yet? I'd love to come, but driving in large towns (like Knoxville) terrifies me. I drove down there to adopt a rat from the Young-Williams animal shelter, and it was a horrible trip. It's a wonder we got back in one piece. O_o