Using regular sea salt from the grocery store?

[wadu]

hi i was just wondering, can you use regular "sea salt" from the grocery stores for a saltwater aquarium. If it is just sea salt with no additives, it should be ok right? It is from the sea hehehe.

[bertoni]

[welcome]

That won't work at all. When salt is made, a lot of the dissolved ions combine into non-soluble forms, like calcium carbonate. This precipitate won't redissolve.

This thread has pointers to a lot of good starter info:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166836

[wadu]

is there any articles regarding this subject focusing on how "pure sea salt" is made and why it is not suitable to fish keeping? Is your answer based on experience?

[geekreef_05]

Im gonna side with bertoni and re-instate that this wont work. Salt mixes at your LFS are 'engineered' products. They contain many ingrediants that are benificial to the home aquarium. This includes trace elements, balanced pH/calc/alk as well as many other things.

Keep in mind the following as well:
- water quality is priority No. 1 in this hobby
- grocery store sea salt may have come from any ocean or sea on the planet. If we take salt from the middle of the ocean and attempt to use it in a reef environment the result will most likely be lacking at best. I would specially worry about the corals and their growth.
- this hobby has been active for many years...if basic sea salt was all you needed, then everyone would be using it.

happy reefin'

[LTJGAlex]

Dude:

I third that opinion. Totally impossible and highly inadvisable.

[WaterKeeper]

Using salt made from evaporating ocean water was of course tried in the early days of trying to maintain saltwater fish. It seemed logical until losses in such tanks indicated something was missing. These are the various buffers that control alkalinity and pH. Some of the first artificial salts, then called Synthetic Ocean Water (SOW), were formulated for the use in public aquariums. They used evaporated seawater but added various buffers back into the mix. As more knowledge was obtained on the composition and required nutrients of ocean water our present day Artificial Sea Waters evolved. Choose a good salt mix, reconstituted with RO/DI water, and your chance of success in this hobby will greatly increase.

[wadu]

feedback are greatly appreciated. trying to learn more and more to see the big picture. it would be great to know the composition of the stuff we use to understand better what the important stuff really are. like the air we breath, oxygen is the only important element we care about right, yet there the atmosphere is made up of so many impurities that we could actually nix out. as for the missing components, we could readily just add it on when needed like calcium is for the corals, we are already adding that stuff in with the calcium reactors and such so why do we need it in our salt mixes when seawater is only composed of 1.16 percent of it.

[michaeldaly]

You could use Sea Water if your sure it's clean

[spidey07]

Originally posted by wadu
feedback are greatly appreciated. trying to learn more and more to see the big picture. it would be great to know the composition of the stuff we use to understand better what the important stuff really are. like the air we breath, oxygen is the only important element we care about right, yet there the atmosphere is made up of so many impurities that we could actually nix out. as for the missing components, we could readily just add it on when needed like calcium is for the corals, we are already adding that stuff in with the calcium reactors and such so why do we need it in our salt mixes when seawater is only composed of 1.16 percent of it.

Sorry to go off path, but all life on earth would stop without those other elements (nitrogen, C02)

Similar to the table salt - doesn't have the elements required to sustain a "mini ocean"

[bertoni]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

That article has some information on various water parameters. It would be possible in theory to use plain salt (whether "sea salt" or any non-iodized salt) and add supplements as needed to make a good synthetic seawater mix, but as hobbyists we don't have economical access to the chemicals to do so. Also, the synthetic salts are design with various tradeoffs, etc, to get the elements reasonable balanced and yet have the mix actually dissolve properly. That's fairly knowledge-intensive, although doable.

[Zoalander]

here's a differant idea. Would you use Instant Ocean Salt to cook with or put on your eggs in the morning?

[angelces]

Originally posted by Vetter1980
here's a differant idea. Would you use Instant Ocean Salt to cook with or put on your eggs in the morning?

maybe as part of a phbalanced breakfast. :lol:

[wadu]

man some replies here are way off. bertoni's got the idea but that instant ocean for eggs reply....i was getting into the composition of sea water where the main elements are sodium chloride about 86%, sulfate 8%, magnesium 3.69%, calcium 1.16%, potassium 1.10%

The sodium chloride is what makes up 98% of "pure sea salt", it also contains the other elements. so why can't we use it is my question.

what i'm trying to say is, we are already using additives to make the tanks abundant of what the corals and inverts actually need, calcium by our reactors and kalkwassers etc,etc. The fish should be okay with the right specific gravity as long as there is enough oxygen in the water, so why can't we start with the right specific gravity, clean water, and then add on the other essential stuff by way of additives.

[wastememphis]

they just told you why you cant, read the thread he linked. i just googled this link:

link 1 (http://spikesworld.spike-jamie.com/science/ecology/c241-01-salt-water-aquarium.html)

link 2 (http://boeing_dude.tripod.com/id62.htm)

[Shooter7]

To me, the whole topic is rather deep for a newbie forum, and could possibly be misleading to someone new reading it. Would probably get better responses bouncing it off someone like Calfo, or better yet, Randy over in the reef chemistry forum.

[wadu]

here is the summary:

Summary

Chemical issues in reef aquaria are often daunting to aquarists. There are many chemical parameters that aquarists monitor, some of which are critical for success, and some of which are much less important. Of those critical for success, only calcium and alkalinity require regular supplementation in all reef aquaria, although the others in Table 1 may require monitoring. Successfully keeping the parameters in Table 1 at appropriate levels should go a long way toward allowing aquarists to more fully enjoy their aquaria while at the same time ensuring that the inhabitants are well cared for.

There are many chemical parameters that aquarists monitor, some of which are critical for success, and some of which are much less important. Of those critical for success, only calcium and alkalinity require regular supplementation

like i said, not all composition are critical. we do Calcium and alkalinity already by way of additives.

[wastememphis]

" Or, we can make our own, by using the following ingredients: For every three gallons of fresh water, use 10 1/2 ounces pure table salt, 1 1/2 ounces magnesium chloride, 1 ounce Epsom salts, and 1/2 ounce plaster of paris. It seems safer, to me, to buy the mixture at the pet store. For example, the recipe says "pure table salt," and that it (and the other salts) can be of a "technical" grade. The table salt we buy to use on our tables is not "pure." It has stuff in it to make it easy to pour, some has iodine added, some has preservative added. I don't know if "technical grade" salts have additives or not. Pure sea salt would make more sense
to me."

[Shooter7]

Not everyone does additives though, particularly some with nano tanks. On my 10gal, I use water changes only to maintain my water parameters and it does well this way. I'd hate to have to try and perfectly balance a bunch of additives in a tank of water that small. One little goof up and *boom*, there goes your tank.

[wadu]

waste memphis' link1 support my theory. link 2 does not oppose it.

[wastememphis]

I dont know how accurate that makeshift list for salt is, so i would never try it.

Link 2 was actually using saltwater to treat freshwater fish.

[wadu]

Originally posted by Shooter7
Not everyone does additives though, particularly some with nano tanks. On my 10gal, I use water changes only to maintain my water parameters and it does well this way. I'd hate to have to try and perfectly balance a bunch of additives in a tank of water that small. One little goof up and *boom*, there goes your tank.

i guess this applies more to the bigger aquariums. to those keeping nano tanks, i guess the cost doesn't make much difference. but for those who uses salt quite a bit could take this into consideration.

[jgoodrich71]

The problem is that there is a solid solution series as the water is evaporated. Different chemicals will "fall out of solution". Once those chemicals go from ionic to a solid, there is no way to get them to dissolve again. When they form a solid, they combine chemically to form a mineral that will not dissolve back into their respective ions. (Trying to explain short answer but leaving thing out.)

[wadu]

here is what i'll do. i will develop a tank from scratch using sea salt to make my initial water. i will slowly add on kalkwasser to make up for the calcium/hydroxide for alkalinity. carbonates can be obtained from the food, same gravity will be used 1.023 with the following equipment:

70 gallons
4 x 55 w PC for lights
jebo 182 for skimmer
802 powerheads for circulation

let us not come to any conclusion unless we try it for ourselves. That is all i'm going to do, nothing fancy just the kalkwasser additive.

if my theory is correct, we do not need sulfate, potassium or magnesium in our tanks as these are going to be kept at a minimum.

[wadu]

Originally posted by jgoodrich71
The problem is that there is a solid solution series as the water is evaporated. Different chemicals will "fall out of solution". Once those chemicals go from ionic to a solid, there is no way to get them to dissolve again. When they form a solid, they combine chemically to form a mineral that will not dissolve back into their respective ions. (Trying to explain short answer but leaving thing out.)

so why do we buy salt mixes which are in solid form. doesn't this contradict your reply?

[greenbean36191]

if my theory is correct, we do not need sulfate, potassium or magnesium in our tanks as these are going to be kept at a minimum.
You do need those things and most other minor components of seawater, you just don't need them in levels that neccessitate additives. For example magnesium is particularly important for calcification.

so why do we buy salt mixes which are in solid form. doesn't this contradict your reply?
It doesn't contradict anything. The dry salt mixes are made from dry ingredients mixed together. They are not evaporated sea salt. The formation of the precipitates only happens in concentrated seawater solutions.

Some salt mixes do use evaporated sea salt as a base, but they have to add other ingredients besides calcium and carbonates. Unless you can get the ingredients in bulk it's cheaper to use pre made salt mix.

[wadu]

magnesium will be present except be kept at a minimum. what i meant was the other three components will be kept at a minimum ie no maintenance for them will occur.

Magnesium will be helpful maintaining ph as it bonds to calcium carbonate crystals but other than that it should not be critical for the growth of the animals.

[Steven Pro]

If you really want to make your own salt, it can be done. Steve Spotte published an ingredient list many years ago, although that basic formulation has been refined by the various manufacturers over the decades. That said, it is really not a great idea. It is not cost effective as you can't buy the ingredients in bulk. Secondly, you won't make a homogenous mix, so whatever amount of dry salt you prepare must be mixed all at once.

[WaterKeeper]

I agree Steve; back in my early days of marine husbandry, somewhere between the building of the pyramids and the drafting of the Magna Carta, I made my own SOW (Synthetic Ocean Water) using a recipe from Standard Methods for the Examination of Water and Wastewater as the base formula. Even with access to a lab the chemicals for adding all the trace elements were very costly. Also, I was always chasing pH as my buffering left something to be desired.

Today's ASW's have evolved with time and pretty much cover all the bases in maintain one's tank. It is really poor economy to try to duplicate them using table (ocean) salt and suppling additives.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that one could make their own salt and it would likely be far more expensive than commercial salts, and a lot of work.

When I said in an article that one need mostly only worry about calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity, that was because other things in the mixes do not get depleted, not that they aren't necessary for marine organisms. I expect that if you significantly perturbed things like sulfate and potassium, some organisms will be unhappy. What those would be I do not know, but I'd consider that a research project, rather than ordinary reefkeeping.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
When I said in an article that one need mostly only worry about calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity, that was because other things in the mixes do not get depleted, not that they aren't necessary for marine organisms. I expect that if you significantly perturbed things like sulfate and potassium, some organisms will be unhappy. What those would be I do not know, but I'd consider that a research project, rather than ordinary reefkeeping. There are salts like that available from the manufacturers. They call them lobster mixes. They only worry about the major ions and leave out lots of things. But, they are only for use in lobster tanks at restaurants, where the lobsters are not fed nor do they move around a lot. It is meant to keep them healthy enough to be killed and eaten, but not meant for long-term maintenance or growth.

[goby1]

There is a mix out there that contains everything but NaCl. You buy the NaCl locally to save on shipping. This is a great idea, although I haven't seen reviews of this product. Bulk NaCl of a grade good enough for our hobby shouldn't be too expensive.

I think a good idea would be to find a way to separate the NaCl from spent tank water, and then use this product. It's a shame to waste that much NaCl every water change, as that's what salt mixes mostly are.

G1

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by goby1
There is a mix out there that contains everything but NaCl. You buy the NaCl locally to save on shipping. This is a great idea, although I haven't seen reviews of this product. Bulk NaCl of a grade good enough for our hobby shouldn't be too expensive. Fritz made/makes a product like this, but it was/is mostly marketed to public aquariums.

[inwall75]

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/1559/cid/392

[cduran02]

Just as a note, Aquaticeco.com sells a salt mix that has all the ingredients of artificial sea water except sodium chloride. When mixing it you need to add pure table salt (without iodine, or any else). Its done to reduce cost of shipping since NaCl is pretty dense and adds a lot of the weight.

[WaterKeeper]

It is fairly hard to find table salts that don't contain aluminum salts to prevent caking. You'd have to do some looking around to find an additive free salt.

[Steven Pro]

I don't know if the Aquatic Eco-Systems concentrated salt mix is like this, but the Fritz stuff required that you mix all 400 gallons of it at a time. It was not a homogenous blend, so the entire container had to be used all at once. Hence, not too many people besides public aquariums used it because not too many hobbyists have a need or the container for 400 gallons of salt water at a time.

[Paul B]

In the early days of salt water fish there was only one brand of comercially available salt. Sometimes I would add regular sea salt to the regular salt mix in an emergency if I could not get the "real" artificial salt. ( I know thats wierd) Of course it was only for an emergency and it was for fish only. I never had a problem. I doubt that you could keep fish for very long with just sea salt but I don't think I ever tried so I cant swear to it.
Paul

[goby1]

It's not that the NaCl is dense, but that it comprises the vast majority of the salt mix. G1