starting a reef aquarium store?

[227]

Hi, I would like to start a internet store that sells everything you need for your reef in my basement. My basement is about 1700sq. ft., and would like to use 9/10th of it as a growing area and the rest for supplies and a small office. My plan is to keep it simple and cheap affordable prices to help new commers to the hobbie. I wanted to sell my own liverock so I though about www.hirocks.com to keep my rock under the $2-3lb. range. I have heard some good and some bad things about them. Any body with experience? Also with the rock I entend to sell I want to have hardy frags growing on the rock, so even if it's very bulky you still can't beat the price with live corals on it! I also plan to breed clowns and some saltwater mollies. Do you think I'm on the right track? What about moisture? I love my hardwood floors! Would a dehumidfier work to keep the humidity from becoming damaging? Their will be lots of tanks. thanks

[slipknottin]

You will not make any money with such a plan. Figure it will cost you slightly more than a dollar a pound or so for the hirocks. You will need to buy a considerable amount of real live rock to seed the tanks, and you need to give the dead rock at least a couple years to mature and become totally populated. The lighting, filtration, pumps, water changes, etc will cost you a good amount of money each year. And you want to add frags to the rock as well? If your doing this more as a hobby then you could have a lot of fun, and perhaps make a few bucks, but dont expect it to pay itself off. Wont happen on the pricing and scale you are proposing.

As far as breeding fish is concerned, you can do alright, make perhaps a couple hundred a year or so if your really dedicated to breeding them. And that means 10+ tanks dedicated solely to breeding each individual species of fish. That means daily, if not hourly feeding of fry, conditioning of the parents, water changes, etc. And I would not consider selling the fish direct to the public. I would supply retail stores instead.

[227]

It is more of a hobby thing to help confused reefers, and not really all about profit. I just want mewcomers to have what I didn't. Now what about humidity?

[slipknottin]

How many tanks (how many gallons) do you want to have in your basement?

I would advise first using vapor barrier throughout the room, then having a dehumidfier, or an air exchanger, or even better, both.

[227]

About 3000g, mostly for rock.

[outy]

where you live and the climate there will have more too do with humidity. removal is easy depending on where the dry air will come in and the possibly damp air exhausted.

as far as your floors go you will need some kind of protection for weight reasons as well as spills.

[BradL.]

Sounds like a lot of hard work and $$. Good luck and post some pics

[Jiddy]

If you want to sell LR for around $3, you could go onto Ebay and buy it for $289 for 100lbs shipped to your door.

[Junix]

where are you located?

i dont know the cost of the shipment but maybe i can supply the LR. im from the philippines

[kbmdale]

Originally posted by slipknottin
you need to give the dead rock at least a couple years to mature and become totally populated.

Not true...a couple of months is all it takes.

[227]

I live in Ohio, do you think I can build a greenhouse outside to grow coral and live rocks?

[Burgman]

Hi,

There already a guy in Ohio(Medina) doing just that, he built a greenhouse and has set up several big rubbermaid tubs. He was saying that there was too much light from what I can remember.
He has put a lot of effort into his project. Check out his web site at www.tidalgardens.com. I don't know how he is doing but it's taken a lot of work to get this far.

Dave

[Poolrad]

tidalgardens went about it the wrong way. They should of read "Book of Coral Propagation" before setting up their plans. They made some big mistakes that will be very costly in maintenance and ongoing usage.

Example the rubbermade tubs are not very conductive for temperature transfer in a lighted greenhouse. Usually overheating due to the fact that they are dark colored in nature meaning more electricity to run the cooling fan system (more $). Also the black walls do not let in the light naturally and reflect back as needed. Also the filtration system is setup akwardly with the middle sumps. Not a cost effective way to run the independent systems. Also the RCSD is cool, but not really economically sound when you consider the electricity and moving parts. They should of continued with the air inductive mechanism to provide conflicting currents through the already setup airlift system.

Seems like the cultering part of that greenhouse was an after thought, and it appears mostly intended for plants. So seems like an experiment..

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by kbmdale
Not true...a couple of months is all it takes.

Thats all it takes for the outside to colonize. It takes at least a year for it to be fully active and for me to consider it 'live rock'. Otherwise its dead with with a couple inhabitants stowed away.

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Poolrad
Also the RCSD is cool, but not really economically sound when you consider the electricity and moving parts. They should of continued with the air inductive mechanism to provide conflicting currents through the already setup airlift system.

RCSD's have no moving parts or electricity. They rely entirely on air.

And rubbermaid stock tanks have been used for years in marine and freshwater aquaculture with great success. He may be better off with a black tank, if he has more trouble heating than cooling the greenhouse. And light coming in through the sides doesnt contribute a whole lot anyways.

[Poolrad]

Originally posted by slipknottin
RCSD's have no moving parts or electricity. They rely entirely on air.

And rubbermaid stock tanks have been used for years in marine and freshwater aquaculture with great success. He may be better off with a black tank, if he has more trouble heating than cooling the greenhouse. And light coming in through the sides doesnt contribute a whole lot anyways.

Yep you are right on the RCSD's, however if he has a problem heating in a greenhouse then something is wrong. You should never have this problem, not even in the dead of winter.. Worst case scenario you use gas heat exchangers to provide supplemental heat in the dead of winter, but even then it really isn't used as much. With the greenhouse affect it can be 0 outside, and still 100 inside.

Light reflection is very important in coral growth, by limiting yourself to only direct input from above and no side light transfer or reflection you are heavily slowing your growth potential. A simple light meter could demonstrate the drastic difference with this setup. Rubbermade stock tanks may have been used for years, but that is because they are cheap for initial setup. What most places don't take into effect is the loss of profits to increased maintenance and the reduce growth potential by the inhibited light transfer. It's a simple equation of what appears cheaper on paper at start-up won out versus the long term benefits...

[Burgman]

Hi Poolrad,

How many greenhouses have you put together that are successful at raising corals?

Dave

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Poolrad
You should never have this problem, not even in the dead of winter.. Worst case scenario you use gas heat exchangers to provide supplemental heat in the dead of winter, but even then it really isn't used as much. With the greenhouse affect it can be 0 outside, and still 100 inside.
Depends on what the greenhouse is made of. If your just using a couple layers of that thin plastic sheeting, then you will need to be running a gas heater quite often in winter, depending on location. Rigid plastics will do much better, but plastic sheeting only costs a couple hundred bucks or so, rigid stuff is in the tens of thousands. Calfo was spending $400 a month on heating costs in his greenhouse during winter, and that was back before energy got extremely expensive.

Light reflection is very important in coral growth, by limiting yourself to only direct input from above and no side light transfer or reflection you are heavily slowing your growth potential.

And I strongly disagree that that is true. Corals in a relatively shallow vessel (24" or less) will get nearly all their light through the top, and very little through the sides. In fact, most coral greenhouses use some form or plywood, poly, fiberglass, or other material that is not clear. It is a rarity to have a greenhouse with glass/acrylic aquariums

[Subrafta]

What part of Ohio?

Check out Tropicorium (www.tropicorium.com, in Michigan off I-75 on the way to Detroit) and Marine Solutions (www.marinesolutionsinc.com) for greenhouses in / near Ohio. Tropicorium was just featured in Coral Magazine a couple months back, so it is possible...

With Premium Aquatics in Indy and Phishy Business in Columbus selling very good live rock for $3-6 / lb. you may be better off raising hardy frags than trying to grow homebrew live rock, and acting as a niche wholesaler might be even better. By the time they find out about the local basement shops most hobbiests have already made their first round of mistakes.

www.justcoral.com is a great example of a small shop with a fairly limited selection that still has a lot to offer, especially for beginners.

Best of luck,

John

p.s. If you don't already have Anthony Calfo's Coral Propagation then buy, beg, borrow or swipe a copy ASAP. Also, post your ideas in his "All things salty" expert forum on RC.

[Poolrad]

Originally posted by Burgman
Hi Poolrad,

How many greenhouses have you put together that are successful at raising corals?

Dave

In the process of my first one, you seem to have a condescending attitude in that post :)

There are many ways to set them up, however profits vary widely depending upon the initial time taken to research and properly plan. The one posted above seemed to get put together quickly without a lot of thought or care about factors deemed crucial in the business today. I'm sure it works, but that doesn't mean it is working to it's fullest potential. Let alone best profit.

[Poolrad]

Originally posted by slipknottin
Depends on what the greenhouse is made of. If your just using a couple layers of that thin plastic sheeting, then you will need to be running a gas heater quite often in winter, depending on location. Rigid plastics will do much better, but plastic sheeting only costs a couple hundred bucks or so, rigid stuff is in the tens of thousands. Calfo was spending $400 a month on heating costs in his greenhouse during winter, and that was back before energy got extremely expensive.



And I strongly disagree that that is true. Corals in a relatively shallow vessel (24" or less) will get nearly all their light through the top, and very little through the sides. In fact, most coral greenhouses use some form or plywood, poly, fiberglass, or other material that is not clear. It is a rarity to have a greenhouse with glass/acrylic aquariums

If you read Calfo more you will see he recommends to use rigid plastics for your greenhouse setup, this can run up to the tens of thousands (pricing here in CT for the setup I'm researching is $8900 roughly). But if you plan to keep this location for over 5 years and you are further north then it will pay for itself in the long run through reduced electrical bills and less maintenance.

As for the 2nd point you are correct it is a rarity to see glass aquariums (maybe not as rare for acrylic) but be aware that a majority of the setups in use today have white or reflective materials on the walls or BB (depending upon filtration setup) to gain the additional light. Rubbermade walls/bottom are black and non reflective so there is a major loss of light.

[slipknottin]

I agree. I think far too many people plan such operations based entirely on what theyve learned in the hobby (need x size tank for this, need x amount of light for that), but dont take into consideration the business aspect of it. A solid business plan is a must for anyone who wants to make money, or even break even in aquaculture. But that being said, a solid plan can lead to making a considerable profit. Ive been planning a greenhouse setup for over 3 years now, and Im not really any closer to having anything solid than I was when I started. But if your going to make mistakes, now is the time to do it. On paper, where it doesnt cost anything.

That being said, Im not so critical of tidal gardens, I believe they have a decent setup, and they may be able to make a small profit out of it. It will take them quite some time to recoup the cost of that greenhouse though. And it does not seem that they are utilizing floor space very effectively. However, over time that may change. That quality greehouse will last at least 20 years however, so its a good investment for colder climates.

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Poolrad If you read Calfo more you will see he recommends to use rigid plastics for your greenhouse setup, this can run up to the tens of thousands (pricing here in CT for the setup I'm researching is $8900 roughly). But if you plan to keep this location for over 5 years and you are further north then it will pay for itself in the long run through reduced electrical bills and less maintenance.
He doesnt recommend the use of rigid plastics. It depends entirely on the application. Long term setup in a colder climate would be better suited by rigids, but short term setups or warmer climate and plastic sheeting is fine.


Rubbermade walls/bottom are black and non reflective so there is a major loss of light.

And potentially a major gain in heat, which may be as important in some areas. Cover the bottom with sand, then the only loss of light is on the sides... Which dont contribute a whole lot in most cases.

[Poolrad]

Black rubbermade also increases the heat as well since it is a black plastic non reflective surface. It just absorbs the suns energy and heats up the container. Seriously 3 year now and you haven't moved forward? Have you started a business plan on it and done some initial costing? It just takes some serious time crunching numbers, putting the plans on paper, and getting a feel for your direction...

Yep sand can help on the bottom, if you go that route. Seems a lot of farmers are moving towards independent sand beds that are chained into the water supply. This independent sand bed is usually kept in darkness and heavily aerated. It's an interesting concept..

[slipknottin]

Im still in school, business and marine bio major. Its more a matter of securing the capitol for it, and having the time and effort neccessary to make it successful. In any case, I dont imagine staying in CT for any length of time once Im done with school, so I would almost rather put it off until I find a place that I can stay long term.

I do have a general plan of the size of greenhouse, how to heat/cool, filtration/supplementation, type of greenhouse, and what I want to farm. Its just a matter of putting it altogether.

[Burgman]

Hi 227,

My point is if you want realistic advice talk with the people that have already been there, done that. Good sources of information would be Tidal Gardens and Tropicorium(Dick Perrin) in Michigan. These folks have experience with greenhouses and all the situations that go with them. Learn from them so you don't repeat their mistakes. There are a lot of "opinions" on this board but go with the people that have the experience.

Dave

[slipknottin]

With that being said, perhaps it should be said, that 227 isnt even considering a greenhouse. He is only putting in a large fish room. Alot of people here have had that experience.

I personally have bred/reared and sold fish to aquarium stores, and have done the same with coral. As have many on these forums.

[Jiddy]

I just traded a mean lunar wrasse to my LFS

[227]

Thanks slipknottin, I am not considering a greenhouse at all. I guess I will buy a couple of books on coral propagation and go from their. It also may not be the best idea to grow my own liverock because like someone already said earlier that you can get it for the same price off ebay. I am not looking for a huge profit off of any business I start, just enough to setup more tanks to experiment with and to help add more knowledge to this hoddy to stop future mistakes. By the way, do you think putting together cheap nano kits will help make a small profit? Thanks for all the Help!

[rhenie]

Good luck in your venture to start and mantain your own business. I takes a huge amount of risk to be willing to invest even just the time and effort and research to begin the process of building your business plan.

I hope you end up with a fabulous plan and a fullfilling business venture.

Best of Luck!

Rhenie