What Makes a GREAT LFS?

[Phishy]

I think it was last year or maybe a year before that, this forum had a thread on "What makes a great LFS?". I have not been able to find that thread so I pose the question again so that new members can also comment on the topic. What would you imagine to be the best LFS? Any ideas? Do you prefer a retail store front or the basement type store?
Phishy

PS..I HOPE TO SEE YOU ALL AT THIS SATURDAYS CORA MEETING WITH MIKE PALETTA.

[clavery]

I appreciate it most when my LSF tells me NOT to buy something - either because I don't really need it or it's not compatible with my tank or the fish isn't eating - whatever the case may be, I appreciate his honesty and he now has my loyalty and most of my business.

I do order from on-line vendors (we've been pleased with our purchases from you) but I prefer to purchase fish locally so I can take them back, if necessary.

[cadams]

back to the lounge you!

but I agree, knowledge 1st and foremost. Which goes hand in hand with quality.

....although i've been guilty of ignoring both if the price is right :)

[Bcollins111900]

I will be there on Sat, dying to see what the lord frag prices are going to be, lol. For a good LFS to be great in IMO it needs to have great customer service, without customers there is no store. The LFS needs to have knowledgable employees who sell you what you need, not what they want you to buy so they can make a profit. I find myself helping alot of people at numerous LFS because there employees are not as knowledgable. Great Prices and quality tend to have a big factor on what LFS I go to. I don't mind to pay a little more for quality. Last but not least a smile on someones face to show appreciation that they do care and not specificly in this business to make a killer profit like most LFS. As far as basement or store front, store front would see alot more business but the basement thing gives you a more one on one interaction with the customers.

[Andrew]

I say a lfs that knows what they are doing and keeps their tanks and store in good shape. A good lfs also should have a good system and fair prices.

[jjjimmy]

To me it is rather simple.

1. Quality.
2. Customer service.
3. Educated and knowledgeable staff.
4. Have faith in your product to stand behind it.

This is not just for a LFS but business in general. Very few businesses have all of these qualities but the ones that do can charge more and still have a loyal customer base.

JMO.

Jimmy

[Bcollins111900]

Oh forgot to mention earlier, dollar a polyp Acan Lords.... J/K!

[icu2]

They need not sell you something that you don't need and get you hyped up. Then you buy it and you find out that not only do you not need/can't use the product, but they overcharged you a few $. That happened to me once on an Aqualine Buschke CO2 valve. Was not pleased with that experience. So, BE HONEST!! DON'T PRICE GOUGE!! An LFS that makes their money and pay expenses but take a lil less profit will get more repeat business and end up making more money (at least from me anyways).

My .02

[prance1520]

Hey Phishy,
I think the only real problem I have with a basement store is that you are going to someones house and might feel a bit intrusive. Many times I feel the urge to go to a LFS and browse for an hour and maybe pick up a SPS frag for $20 or so, but it is hard to do around here. If someone were to have a retail store with large shallow SPS growout tanks like yours, I would be in there much more making smaller random purchases. Instead now, if I want a coral, I would have to wait till I want 5 corals to make it worth while to ship or wait till a Saturday and ask you for a walk in.

At the same time, I understand that this drives up costs a great amount to be open 50+ hours a week, having an actual store front to pay rent on, employing others, etc. I do believe though that I and many of the other CORA memebers would be willing to pay an extra $5 a frag and $15 a colony to have the convience to browse and choose.

And of course, I would want a LFS to be honest about the products (Aquaculted, how long they've been in, eating, etc). Not saying that any of the LFS don't do this already, just saying that it is always important to remember that these are animals and they can die without proper care.

Columbus really could use a nice high end LFS. When I go back to Indianapolis (where my girlfriend is from), I go to a pet shop called Uncle Bills (I hear its a chain around there) and they have a large shallow frag tank with some nice SPS with a 1000 watt halide over it. I go there almost every time I go back with her, and have randomly bought $150+ ($60 SPS colonies, $15-20 SPS frags) worth of things there on multiple occassions just because I got excited while browsing. The store is nothing special, and its nothing complex enough that almost everyone in CORA couldn't keep going, its just the fact that there is nothing like that around here.

I'm not sure if your asking for a specific reason:spin2:, but if you are it would be nice to have a place to browse, even if it was a basement and it was open for a couple hours a day (2 or 3 hours a night after normal working hours?). I'll be tagging along here.

Hope that helps, I'll see you Sat.

Matt

[miketay89]

I like good conversation, I don't go to lfs much but there is one in Athens that I drive to every other month, just because I have gotten to know the owner so well and we will talk sometimes for hours, plus he gives me a good discount,... that helps too. He does not have the most elaborate setups, nor the most inventory, but he does have great advice and years of knowledge.

[VoidRaven]

Friendly, honest folks with fair prices and willing to do whatever to help you out. This is why I frequent North Coast Aquatics up here by me (sorry Phishy...just a little to far for me to drive to you...but I always check out your goods at the swaps!). Rick is an awesome guy, has never steered me wrong, has even (more or less) refused to sell me something because it would not be a fit for my reef and explained to me the reasons why. Heading to his shop, which is an extension built on his house so it's like a store but not quite, is like going to hang out at a friend's house...I end up spending a hour or so chatting about reef stuff, work stuff, neighborhood stuff, etc.....only difference is that I don't hand my friends my credit card at the end of the visit and ring up $100 or more in purchases :D

What makes a great LFS? A place where you look forward to visiting; is warm, friendly, and inviting; the people are knowledgeable and willing to educate; the prices are fair; and they stand behind everything they sell 100%

[daveisrael]

I'd have to say I like the store front or open hours type place better. Even if it means less personal attention. Sometimes I'll stop in a LFS just to look at stuff and end up buying something cause I liked it, not because I went there to specifically buy something. I very rarely go to a LFS to buy a specific coral or even fish for that matter. I don't have a problem with the basement type setup (yours is incredible by the way Phishy), but I would feel bad if didn't buy something at that type of place. So the only time I go to a place like that is if I specifically have $ to spend on corals or fish (which is almost never in my case). More often than not I find myself spending money that I shouldn't on something that I "had to have" after seeing it.

Besides if I make an appointment to go to a LFS to specifically buy something it gives my wife a chance to say "no" while if I just pop by a place and come home with something I can always say: "Sorry honey, there is no return policy on corals......or........it really won't cost anything in the long run cause I'm to grow it out and sell frags".

[Phishy]

All of these comments are appreciated, thank you! I have always pondered the idea of opening an LFS for Phishy Business but always seem to back away from it. It is a huge investment for what appears to be a little return. Hobbyists seem to always think that the LFS owners make a lot of money. Most do not from the research I have done. It is a 12 hour + a day job 365 days a year. When I read some of your ideas and from my own experiences with customers of what makes a great LFS a common element seems to always appear about “Fair Prices� of inventory. I want to share with all of you my experience from the business side of it.

In order to have rare and unusual stock and a diversity of animals, at the same time keeping prices low……well it is just impossible to do so to make a living at it. You think you will make it up in volume? No, this hobby is just not that big and there is a lot of competition. Why you ask is it impossible to keep prices low? Well I guess it depends on what your definition of low is but I always get a lot of request that make me wonder if some hobbyist know what livestock cost.

In order to get a large number of rare items and the best specimens of even common items vendors have to pay a premium. I am not talking about a LFS or a basement shop that has a couple of Acanthastrea lords or a few Blastomussa Wellsi once a month, but 10-40 of each and every other type of coral out there with the best colors. To be able to bring in this type of QUALITY/DIVERSITY, a LFS can easily spend 5,000-10,000 in just livestock a week. Then pay for shipping of the inventory, box charges and after that start losing money on DOAs. After paying for the inventory you now have to house these wonderful animals. Electricity, water, RO units, pumps, salt, lighting, etc…..you all know about that. The list of expenses goes on and on like with most businesses………….. . I am not trying to preach to the choir just setting the tone. Remember in order for a GREAT LFS to keep up the quality and diversity week after week they must continue to order from their suppliers in large amounts to have priority with them.

I am curious to hear your opinions. What do you consider to be fair prices knowing that there is a large expense to care for these animals?


Thank you,
Phishy

[porky]

Phishy, I think your prices are fair, like anything else folks are always gonna want to pay the least and get the most...
And for the record I like the basement type set up best, honestly I miss rummaging thru the old Rubbermaid over in Hilliard...
The one element that I think makes a LFS truly GREAT is how they care for the animals they keep. Are tanks sufficiently lit (my primary complaint with a couple of retail outlets) is there enought flow for corals that need it are the tanks clean and are the animals generally healthy. Nothing bums me out more than to go into a LFS and see a hammer or froggy with half the heads dead or dying simply because it's under a strip light or getting pounded with a powerhead...
I think that because we are talking about one the worlds most precious natural resources they deserve to be treated with a level of care and dignity that goes beyond making a buck. I think if you are in the business of selling marine ornamentals you have a special obligation to make sure these animals are given the best care possible while in your possession.
Never stop caring about the animals and to me you'll always have a truly GREAT LFS.

[daveisrael]

I'd have to say that to me, the prices I've seen at your place are more than fair. "Fair prices" to me is a very relative term though. I personally can only think of one LFS around Columbus that I consider to have unfair prices, and I think most of us know where that it is. I don't mind paying more $ as long as the quality is good.

In order to have a store (and make a living at it), I'm sure your prices will have to raise and that would be ok for me. Plus if you had store you could also have a lot of other "dry" type goods with a higher mark up that may help out a little. I'm sure most of us order dry goods online and pay more than a high mark up in shipping. As an example......last week I bought a $5 tube of weld-on and a $1 acrylic pre-cut circle from a web site (total of $6 worth of goods). I then proceeded to pay $6 for shipping, waited 3 days, and had to drive to the west side UPS distributor to pick it up after I missed the UPS guy! If there was a place around here (which now I found out there is...duh!) that sold the weld-on for $10-$15 I would have gladly paid that much for it. There are a lot of stores that sell large ticket items close to cost and then mark up smaller (cheaper) related items at a %300 mark up to make up the difference. I'm not saying you should do that.......just a thought.

[jjjimmy]

Originally posted by Phishy
All of these comments are appreciated, thank you! I have always pondered the idea of opening an LFS for Phishy Business but always seem to back away from it. It is a huge investment for what appears to be a little return. Hobbyists seem to always think that the LFS owners make a lot of money. Most do not from the research I have done. It is a 12 hour + a day job 365 days a year. When I read some of your ideas and from my own experiences with customers of what makes a great LFS a common element seems to always appear about “Fair Prices� of inventory. I want to share with all of you my experience from the business side of it.

In order to have rare and unusual stock and a diversity of animals, at the same time keeping prices low……well it is just impossible to do so to make a living at it. You think you will make it up in volume? No, this hobby is just not that big and there is a lot of competition. Why you ask is it impossible to keep prices low? Well I guess it depends on what your definition of low is but I always get a lot of request that make me wonder if some hobbyist know what livestock cost.

In order to get a large number of rare items and the best specimens of even common items vendors have to pay a premium. I am not talking about a LFS or a basement shop that has a couple of Acanthastrea lords or a few Blastomussa Wellsi once a month, but 10-40 of each and every other type of coral out there with the best colors. To be able to bring in this type of QUALITY/DIVERSITY, a LFS can easily spend 5,000-10,000 in just livestock a week. Then pay for shipping of the inventory, box charges and after that start losing money on DOAs. After paying for the inventory you now have to house these wonderful animals. Electricity, water, RO units, pumps, salt, lighting, etc…..you all know about that. The list of expenses goes on and on like with most businesses………….. . I am not trying to preach to the choir just setting the tone. Remember in order for a GREAT LFS to keep up the quality and diversity week after week they must continue to order from their suppliers in large amounts to have priority with them.

I am curious to hear your opinions. What do you consider to be fair prices knowing that there is a large expense to care for these animals?


Thank you,
Phishy

I may be opening up a can of worms here, but, those who constantly **** and moan about prices are the ones who want what they realistically can not afford or they can not afford the hobby at all. There are a lot of people who have to answer to or lie to "the wife" or "my parents" for buying a piece of livestock.

Those of us that can afford to be in this hobby (and maybe I am just speaking for myself here) won't squabble over an extra $10 - $20 for quality and customer service.

It is always the ones who can't play that yell not fair.

BTW, I thought this was about a good LFS, not a cheap one.

[daveisrael]

There are a lot of people who have to answer to or lie to "the wife" or "my parents" for buying a piece of livestock.

I'd have to answer to the wife whether I spent $1 or $1000. It's not the money to her........it's the principle of spending X # of dollars on my "fish tank".

[miaminemo]

Whats makes a great LFS?

1) Low prices on quality products
2) Sales
3) Free water testing
4) Cute sales girls

i guess # 4 is only in my dreams .. phisyhy already has the top 2 in my mind..

[prance1520]

Hey Phishy,
I don't think any, or many people would gripe about your prices even if they were raised a little to accomodate the price of a retail store. I'll work with some general numbers that are easy to compare to give an example for myself.

I'd say that 80% of my purchases, if not more, are of aquacultured corals. I think they are less risky, reliable, etc. So lets just use ORA corals because they are wide spread and easily comparable. I really have no idea how much ORA sells them for, but I know that you can order some of the nicer ORA frags from MidWest Reefs for about $40 a frag. My problem with that is I don't know what light they are under there and what their chemistry is like. I would easily pay you$60 - $75 dollars for that frag because:
1. I don't have to pay for shipping.
2. I can see my actual frag.
3. Its a 5 minute trip back to the tank instead of a day in a bag of water.
3. I can see exactly what light you are using. It would also be great if you could post your chemistry as well (your Ca, dKH, pH) so that I know exactly how many parameters are changing on that coral, and how stressed it would be.

To be honest, I bet I'd even pay more. Would it be price gouging? Maybe a little, but I might still pay it if I know the coral is growing well, won't bleach, won't die because of stress, and will look the same as it did when I bought it. And if ORA charges you $20 for that frag (which I would be suprised if it was that high), you still make $55 on it. I would think that was a good profit, but I don't know, I've never owned a business. I don't think that I would ever pay over $80 for a wild caught colony, no matter how cool it is, or over $20 for a wild caught frag, but thats just me. I know a lot of other people who don't have problems buying wild caughts.

As for dry goods, I'm not sure what you would do (you obviously have more experience in this than me), but I would leave the high end, large products to the places like premium aquatics. Do you really want to have to store a bunch of skimmer boxes and make $5 or $10 off them to stay competitive with premium? I wouldn't. What I would do though is carry things that people don't want to mail order for that aren't big investments. I just paid $17 for premium to send me 10 packs of pH calibration fluid which cost .99 a piece, and paid $7 to ship. I would have easily paid you $20 ($2 a pack) to have them last night. The list of things like that can go on too: test kits, phyto and fertilizer, powerheads, food, tubing, acrlyic (those nylon screws to use for DIY projects), bulbs, meds, kalk.

You don't need a big elaborate store. I think the size of your basement is fine. I'm just with daveisreal when he says that I would feel funny going to your house to browse and not buy anything. I would want a place where I could go look, some days buy stuff and some days not. But if we had a place like that, I doubt I'd ever mail order a coral or a fish again.

Hope this helps, I'm sure this is a tough decision.

Matt

[copernicus321]

Is it really fair to compare the store to the basement? In a basement type setup, the overhead is not nearly as high as the store. Is the basement zoned for retail business? Does the basement type store pay workers comp? How many employees does the basement store have? A retail store has to either pay rent for retail space or pay a mortgage. A retail store also may have more employees. (I am sure this is not always the case.}
So when pricing is a topic, these things should be kept in mind when comparing the two. The reason I personally like a store is I can return any purchase. I do not have to pay shipping. I do not have to make an appointment. And hours of operation are clearly displayed as a courtesy to myself. They allow me to know I am always welcome. I also know I can count on them in an emergency (i.e. Impellers, silicone etc.) Just my 2 cents

[thebrian]

When I was just up in Canada to see the girlfriend, I stopped by the 2 LFS in the area, just to see what they were like. The first one I stopped by was a pretty small store called the Oakville Reef Gallery. Their physical size was small, but they really maximized their space. In the middle of their store, they must have had a 4'x10' tank partitioned into like 10 sections, all with live coral of various types. They had this one monster clam that must have been over a foot in size, and had blue spots on it (not sure what kind it was). Around the sides of the store, they had all of their fish holding tanks. All they had was reef related stuff, which I thought was great. They had a limited section of drygoods on one wall of the store. Walking into this LFS was kind of like walking into my dream LFS. The only gripe I would have with it is no prices were posted anywhere for any of the livestock.

The funny thing is, I started talking to the owner, and told him where I was from, and he was telling me how there are so many better LFS's in the Midwest. He mentioned Tropicorum in MI and a few others up in the Northern Ohio area. After going there, I started to wonder why we don't have anything like this here, as we are in a larger city, and the costs are probably lower here.

The other funny part is this store was only like 50 feet away from my other stop - one of Canada's chain LFS, Big Al's. I don't know how well the Oakville Reef Gallery was doing business wise, but it must have been doing decent, as they were in the process of setting up a new display tank in the front of the store when I came in, which was easily around 200 gallons. It was interesting to me how they were so close to a chain, and seemed to be doing pretty well.

Even Big Al's was great compared to our LFS. It could have done without the drygoods, although I'm sure they sell a lot of it. Also, they had a huge freshwater section that I didn't really care for, but they did have some nice stuff. They had massive display tanks (although they were fish only). The had a FW Cichlid tank that was easily over 1000 gallons, and on the opposite side had the same tank, except is was SW fish only. In the middle they had a 5,000 gallon cylinder Fish Only/Shark Tank. After gawking at the display tanks for a while I browsed through their Saltwater/Reef Section. Their corals were decent (nothing special though), and they had a large selection. The also had a huge selection of SW fish, although the prices seemed a bit high. In the end, the shark tank was cool, but the small LFS was much better, more personal, and had a better selection in my opinion. While they were setting up a display tank while I was there, and they had a few other smaller displays, they really maximized their space for livestock and other things they could sell. I could have easily spent another 2 hours there, in that small store (whole store was probably like 15' x 45') where, I had nothing else I really wanted to look at in Big Al's besides their displays (and they had more livestock than most of our LFS).

I know this post has a lot of useless crap in it, but take this out of it: Maximize Your Space, post prices, even if they are negotiable, and stock colorful, healthy livestock for sale. Don't worry about drygoods so much, unless you really think you can make money on them. Anyone that's into reefing pretty much knows you can get better deals online for drygoods, so it would be harder to sell them unless you can come close to online prices with them.

I really wish we had some similiar store to the Oakville Reef Gallery in Columbus. I know it would probably be hard for one to get started, as you would have much more overhead costs, but I think it could do pretty well. If you opened up an LFS here Serdar, it would honestly probably hurt some of the other LFS's saltwater/marine sections, as everyone would eventually learn about you, and probably give you their business, due to the better livestock health, quality and quantity.

As it is right now, many reefers in Columbus don't even know about you (although you seem to spread via word of mouth pretty quick). I've asked different employees at different Jacks that personally keep reefs and work the reef sections of their stores if they have heard of Phishy Business, and none of them had even heard of you. To me, the retail presence and simply being listed in a local phone book would probably bring you in much more local business, as I'm sure that those people in the hobby that don't know about you would know about you, and I'm sure you would continue your mail order business. What I don't know is if the increased costs would be too much. Somehow though, even the crappy pet stores like Menagerie Pet Shop by the OSU campus stay in business, so I think a high quality one would have no problem.

Wow...I really rambled for a while here.
~Brian

[Norm R]

I didn't read all of the above but the characteristics of a great LFS for me are (in no particular order)-

Customer Service
Price
Selection
Availability

To me, customer service is far too frequently overlooked in retail in general, not just at the LFS. I see this as a huge opportunity for someone operating a LFS because they can set themselves apart from the competition, with little additional cost. Even if there is no competition, good customer service is a base requirement for me. Without it, I rarely go back.

Price – this is an expensive hobby so for me personally, price is also critical. I shop price on virtually everything I purchase, including corals. Sometimes there is not a good comparison available and I just have to decide if the price is right for me. I have to admit it is hard to understand the wide variability in pricing both online and at the LFS. I expect the LFS to be somewhat higher due to the overhead (and conversely expect online to be cheaper, due to the lower overhead) but I never quite understand the big swings between online vendors or comparing one LFS to another. One thing I really dislike is buyer’s remorse, buying something then seeing it for a much lower price elsewhere and wishing I hadn’t bought it. Obviously some of this goes out the window when that one-of-a-kind, killer coral comes along…

Selection – I think a great LFS has a good mix of common fish/corals and the more unique. I buy corals based on whether I like them or not (and health, price, etc.), not necessarily based on their uniqueness relative to availability. So, it’s important to me for a LFS to have a good mix of basics and the unusual.

Availability – I love to just show up and browse when it’s convenient or I’m in the area. Columbus is pretty thin on that option right now, IMO.


For me, if any of these 4 areas goes out of skew, I typically don’t go back if I have a choice. Unfortunately, in this hobby I think it’s pretty hard to find the perfect balance of the above, but I believe it is possible and that it would be extremely successful.

[Buckeye ME]

I agree with everyone on the browsing aspect. Even if I don't buy anything, I love to look around any time I can. But browsing usually does lead to small purchases, and makes me return when it is time for big purchases. Appearance definitely matters as well.

I know most here have a disdain for the noted expensive store in town, but I love looking around in that place. IMO it has hands down the most impressive displays in Columbus, and most of the FW stuff seems reasonably priced. No idea why there is such a discrepancy in SW though.

[copernicus321]

Thebrian
You have some good points. It would be no problem to open a store like that. I see you are currently unemployed, why not open one yourself?

[thebrian]

Originally posted by copernicus321
Thebrian
You have some good points. It would be no problem to open a store like that. I see you are currently unemployed, why not open one yourself?

I don't have the capital or experience to do so. I've only been in reefing for like 10 months now, and I just graduated from college. I don't have the knowledge or experience to do so, much less the money.

~Brian

[beerguy]

Jason - please go grind your axe elsewhere.

[prance1520]

So are you still considering it Phishy? I will admit that I have gotten a little excited over this thread. It could be like the good old days when I used to hang out at the comic shop, but now we could all hang out at the LFS. Did I just make myself seem like an even bigger dork?

[Phishy]

prance1520,
It is under consideration, we will see.;) Please keep the ideas and comments coming!
Thanks again,
Phishy

[bluehippotang]

Serdar

Is Phishy Business the only thing that you do for a living? Or do you have another means of income? Your business should be very time consuming and leaving you little time for yourself.

Realistically would you still be able to provide the same quality products, service, and prices if you opened a retail store? You would need to hire good employees, because with a business like that you can't do everything yourself.

You also seem to be at every frag swap within a couple of hundred miles on your weekends.

[enitnelaVeyaF]

Speaking of high overhead when you open a store... I found out how much AA pays a month for rent.
Can you guess what it is?

You won't believe it.

[C. irritans]

$10,000?

yeah right, that's a crap load, isnt it? LOL.

[xdusty6920]

i'd say the most important things to me is first selection and secondly price. im not too picky on price but some places go overboard and i feel like a fool buying anything at those prices. but most importantly is selection. too many lfs have the same old same old corals in all the time. its not unusual to see everything almost identical in all the tanks when you return weeks later. im not really motivated to go when that is the case. if there were a lfs that constantly got new stuff in, i dont think id be the only one who would stop in often to see what kinda new goodys are in.

[thebrian]

Originally posted by C. irritans
$10,000?

I think you're still a bit low. They're in a major shopping center next to Old Navy. Also, they have all this water in there, which could potentially damage property. And their store is huge. I'm thinking they're paying along the lines of $25,000+/month.

~Brian

[Norm R]

$10,000-$25,000 + labor + utilities + insurance = $100 yellow tang. :eek1:

[Teddy Ballgame]

Originally posted by Phishy
All of these comments are appreciated, thank you! I have always pondered the idea of opening an LFS for Phishy Business but always seem to back away from it. It is a huge investment for what appears to be a little return. Hobbyists seem to always think that the LFS owners make a lot of money. Most do not from the research I have done. It is a 12 hour + a day job 365 days a year. When I read some of your ideas and from my own experiences with customers of what makes a great LFS a common element seems to always appear about “Fair Prices� of inventory. I want to share with all of you my experience from the business side of it.

In order to have rare and unusual stock and a diversity of animals, at the same time keeping prices low……well it is just impossible to do so to make a living at it. You think you will make it up in volume? No, this hobby is just not that big and there is a lot of competition. Why you ask is it impossible to keep prices low? Well I guess it depends on what your definition of low is but I always get a lot of request that make me wonder if some hobbyist know what livestock cost.

In order to get a large number of rare items and the best specimens of even common items vendors have to pay a premium. I am not talking about a LFS or a basement shop that has a couple of Acanthastrea lords or a few Blastomussa Wellsi once a month, but 10-40 of each and every other type of coral out there with the best colors. To be able to bring in this type of QUALITY/DIVERSITY, a LFS can easily spend 5,000-10,000 in just livestock a week. Then pay for shipping of the inventory, box charges and after that start losing money on DOAs. After paying for the inventory you now have to house these wonderful animals. Electricity, water, RO units, pumps, salt, lighting, etc…..you all know about that. The list of expenses goes on and on like with most businesses………….. . I am not trying to preach to the choir just setting the tone. Remember in order for a GREAT LFS to keep up the quality and diversity week after week they must continue to order from their suppliers in large amounts to have priority with them.

I am curious to hear your opinions. What do you consider to be fair prices knowing that there is a large expense to care for these animals?


Thank you,
Phishy

Serdar,

Business always boils down to money. If it's not worth opening up a store, don't do it. Keep it in your basement and that way you can keep costs as low as possible. For customers, all the great customer service and knowledge is worthless if the price isn't right. We all appreciate everything you do for CORA, but would hate to see you lose your mind and passion for reefs over a struggling business venture! Good luck with your decision.

[WmTasker]

I agree with everything that people have been posting. I also am a big person on cleanliness. I love stores that have quality products, quality employees, and CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN.

[prance1520]

Fish stores the size of AA are rediculous. I even think Byerly's is large. Maybe not large, but a lot of space is used by the FW which Serdar would not deal with (I assume). Opening a store larger than Byerly's, is in my mind, a big mistake. Secondly, AA is on Sawmill Rd. a super large shopping mecca. Reef stores have a "cult following" in that reefers will search out stores no matter where they are. Honestly, how many people stop by a fish store and say "Yeah, lets drop $5000 on a reef tank?" if they just stopped in to browse. Opening a store in Grandview, clintenville, or other less commercial areas would definately take the rent way down.

There is a reason that AA is a poorly run fish store, and I don't think because the people there are THAT uninformed about the hobby. I think its a bad business plan. If you cater to the full fledged hobbiest, they will search you out and find you, even at hour+ drives away. If your regular customer is an uninformed mom buying her daughter a mini-bow so she can keep a nemo, then I guess you need to make up for paying your $25000 a month in rent somehow, and thats what AA does.

Comparing the rent that AA pays to what a better reef business owner like Serdar would pay is unfair.

[geo]

I can't see a LFS making it here unless they deal in freshwater. Our small group of saltwater people will not support a store. There are many people who keep marine tanks who do not visit on line sites, but everybody in the Columbus area with a slat water tank is not going to spend every nickel that goes into their tank(s) at one store. If a guy (serdar :) ) is going to do most of his business on line and use those funds to support a salt water only store front wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. If the focus on a store is going to be marine, I would be happy seeing somebody work out of an office/warehouse space and be kind enough to let locals walk in on the weekends.

[sammie]

I agree with Geo and that the true reefer dosen't care about where a store is located or if its 'cute'' or not. What they want is high quality livestock at a reasonable price. Phishy your prices have seemed to come down in the last 6 months and I have purchased more from you because of that and your quality is as always excellent. I think you have learned what a "sale" can do for you.
We had an aquarium shop back in the 1980's and people are not lying, it's tough to make a large profit unless you handle freshwater and to do that you need a storefront.
Phishy the only think I could sugest to you as you have the quality and healthy livestock and your prices have got better all you need to do is set up some type of set day and time that people can depend on you being there. Reefers will work their life around the time you want to be avaliable. I believe Gerbers in Dayton started having retail hrs on the weekend and look at their hrs. for retail now. Almost daily...
Bill

[Buckeye ME]

I do like the "warehouse" idea. Even if it was only one day a week, a storefront would go a long ways, but like people said it's hard to pay that retail space with saltwater only.

[enitnelaVeyaF]

I was just saying its no wonder they sell yellow tang for $100 when their rent is in the $20,000's. I don;t know why everyone complains about the prices there, it makes sense to me that they HAVE TO sell stuff for that much.

Terrible idea on the owner's part and now he's seeing the ill effects. Can't keep anyone besides the 10% of the population happy and thats when you, the customer, sees a decline in informative employees. I wouldn't work there unless they paid me $10 an hour, and what kind of retail store does that? The less people get paid, the less educated the staff.

I agree that the place is too large. I think Phishy should definitely think twice about getting commercial land, though I think at this point the legalities of it all may push him to get out of the basement and into a storefront. Unless he's got really understanding neighbors, lol.

Maybe's he's out of the basement already, I don't keep up on it... but 20 people buying good out of someone's house may be crossing the line of residental areas vs business areas. And we all know rent in a residence is much less than a retail storefront. He's going to have to raise his prices, expecially if he doesnt sell anything but live marine coral. Freshwater sales help fish stores even out making money. Some places sell FW just to get people in to look or say they have a FW section. That may be a good idea if he's "coming out".

[prance1520]

I agree completely about the expense of a storefront. I'm still not sure what to think about Columbus not being able to support a marine only store. For every 1 of us in CORA, there are at least 10 others that have marine tanks that just don't know about RC and still shop at AA. I know 5. My cousins, a co-workers husband (who just bought a skimmer at AA and made me cringe), etc etc. I am trying to help them out now, but they go back to AA because its all they know.

I guess I shouldn't say storefront when I talk about this subject. Geo is right when he says a guy working out of his office or a warehouse would definately suffice. I think very few people stop in fish stores and decide that they are going to get into such an expensive hobby. Like I said, people with tanks seek out great stores, and many would seek out a warehouse too. Word of mouth is a much better advertister than a storefront in this hobby.

Its not the building he's in that matters. It doesn't need to be fancy or in a high traffic area. The problem is, I can't recommend my co-worker's husband to go see phishy to see what well kept corals look like or a real equiptment (GEO products, MH's, etc) are because they say "I can't walk into some guys house I don't know." How about a warehouse thats open from 6-9 every evening after business hours and 12-5 on sat. Something like that would encourage me to browse more, and would be more inviting to new hobbiests who don't know Serdar well enough to walk into his basement.

[Thurge]

Most important thing to me is a knowledgable staff that isn't affraid to tell me that I shouldn't do/purchase something. Nothing peaves me more than to overhear/talk with an LFS person and later come to find out that they could have saved a headache by correcting something.
Second is variety. I don't necessarly mean that you have a hundred different species of coral and 200 of fish at all times; but that if I go shopping of the first of this month I am not going to see essentially the same stuff I saw the first of last month and the first of the month before that. Every shop tends to reflect the prefferences of the owner but that may not cater to the prefferences to all of its customers. If you just got in a boat load of SPS this month then next month look at stocking more LPS of softies.
After that is a mash of a clean store, reasonable prices (I realize I can't expect to pay the same thing in a store that I do online strate from the Wholesaler's tank. I look at the difference as Paying for your knowledge ), and most importantly open hours.

Without open hours you are missing out on ALL the impulse buys. I'm like the rest, I may be "looking" to purchase the proverbal 10 astrae snails but that doesn't mean I only plan on walking out with just 10 snails, there for I don't deal with appointment only shops. I would gladly hold my shopping trips to coencide with a First Rate shop's limited hours, so I could shop their first rate selection without being a bother if nothing catches my eye and all I end up leavign with are the snails I origionally intended to purchase (Yea like THAT happes often).

Ps I was thrilled when you held an open hours weekend. I litterally drove from Cleveland round trip JUST to check your shop out, and see what all of CORA was always talking about.
Just could you do it on Sunday next time, as I work from Midnight to 10 on Saturday morning, and a 4hour round trip + acclimation is almost too much. :D

[cward]

Actually prance1520 is right. I know 5 people that have saltwater tanks and only buy locally, has no idea what RC is and is not interested in joining CORA. One of the guy's has had a saltwater tank for about 10 years now.
There are a lot of people out there, you just have to find them.

[NEEDMONEYFORMORESALT]

Everyone has to admit though, price does have a huge impact. If a quality fish place like Phishys has a coral for 50 bucks and say Jacks has the same one for 25, then knowledge, customer service or any other takes a back door and the one at Jacks sells quickly. A few might disagree but must everyone else will or otherwise Walmarts wouldn't be in business.

[CaveManNOhio]

Everyone has to admit though, price does have a huge impact. If a quality fish place like Phishys has a coral for 50 bucks and say Jacks has the same one for 25, then knowledge, customer service or any other takes a back door and the one at Jacks sells quickly. A few might disagree but must everyone else will or otherwise Walmarts wouldn't be in business.

I would be one of the ones to disagree with going to Jacks for the same item at a cheaper price. I would rather pay the higher price from a high quality store. I'm guessing that the higher priced place is getting better specimens and their systems are going to be better. The reason the other place can sell cheaper in most cases is due to cutting corners. Especially when you are talking about some thing that is rare and not a bulk item. IMO

[pastelball]

One reason some stores may sell cheaper is they are a chain. they buy enough to supply 10 stores than just one. Most suppliers will give a better discount. So they can afford to cut prices a bit.

[prance1520]

From what I have seen, Jacks is fine for fish. The big difference between phishy's and jacks is phishy can keep corals alive and grow them, and jacks just tries real hard not to kill them before they sell. Most of phishy's stuff grows so he can sell frags from it. This goes back to one of the things I said at the beginning of this thread. You can buy discount corals at Jack's for $25 and have a 50% survival rate, and I'll buy the $50 one from phishy and not lose any, and we'll both come out the same. But I hate killing things. I'll stick with phishy's. The walmarts of the world have their place, but its not in living creatures.

CaveMan is right. When was the last time you saw a pink milli, acan, or a blue tort at Jacks. You'll see me at Phishy's, but to each his own.

[tye_c]

On the Idea of a store not selling freshwater and still surviving, this can happen. Dan at Saltycritter moved from a basement only store to a retail store, and still does not sell freshwater. I think his prices went up a little to cover overhead but its worth it for the convience. He carries a lot of dry goods and does onlines sales to help with the increased overhead. I enjoy his place more now that I can go and browse without the pressure of buying. Even though there was not pressure from the store, I felt I needed to buy something being that I was invading his house.
Just my 2 cents.

Tye

[enitnelaVeyaF]

There arent enough marine aquarists that keep sps in columbus to substain more than a couple stores. point blank. other locations outside ohio can offer a wider selection becasue there are simply more possible customers. Thats why 90% of all stores in columbus are FW. the vast amount of clientel hasnt 'moved up' to saltwater.
Phishy's is nice for the small niche of people that can come by once a week that want to buy something. If he opens a store not every customer will buy and not every tank will be pristine when employees will have to do other activities, like helping customers, ringing out customers, and the like.
I say go for it, but all he;s going to be doing is giving advice 80% of the time and selling once 20%. Thats what retail is all about, shopping around.

[xdusty6920]

lol id be happy if serdar would just set up some open house hours a day or 2 a week. that would make it things alot better. having to match his schedule to mine and then finding somthing ill deffinently buy is difficult. serdar is doing things very well i think. he runs an intimate environment were you can personally ask him about his corals, instead of flagging down a 16 year old lfs worker. everything is well kept and he's very knowledgable about what he has, when he got it, etc. if he were to open a retail store, he has alot more on his plate. hed have to hire more employees get more systems, move more corals in. combine all that and you loose everything that makes phishy business great.

[efroggies]

I agree with almost everything that has been said so far. The one thing that I do disagree with is what needmoremoneyforsalt said. I check out the corals at Jack's at least every other week when I am there getting something else. I have never seen a low priced coral at Jack's (nothing under $30) and I ahve never been tempted to but any of thier corals because as prance1520 said the look like they are struggling to just stay alive. I have gone in there and seen the degradation of a coral over just a few weeks time. I have also heard some of thier sales personnel give some ridiculous advice as to setting up a tank.

I would love to go to Phishy's more, but I am a implusive buyer and having to remember to call and set up an appointment is just against my nature. I have been there during the open hours events and since I didn't have to make an appointment I felt less like I was invading someones home.