reducing phosphate with skimmer

[3f_p@L]

i've heard that phosphste can be reduced by dripping the kalkwasser in to the airline on downdraft skimmer. its effectiveness is hundred times than using rowaphos, etc.
is it true?

can do it using needle wheel skimmer?

[SeanT]

Originally posted by 3f_p@L
its effectiveness is hundred times than using rowaphos, etc.
is it true?

Not even close, in regards to the ROWAphos.

To be honest I am skeptical on exactly how much kalkwasser helps to lower phosphates in general.

I believe I read in the chemistry forum that kalkwasser may precipitate calcium phosphate but only in the generalized area it is being introduced at.

hth,
Sean

[3f_p@L]

u mean by dripping kalkwasser in high flow area to make calcium phosphate precipitation?

[SeanT]

No, I mean that in the area kalkwasser is dripped may show a reduction in phosphate.

Basically, kalkwasser is NOT an effective means of phosphate control.

Sean

[spamin76]

It will reduce it to a certain extent - via a chemical reaction and precipitate, but it is not as efficient as a phosphate remover which can deplete phosphate extremely rapidly(sometimes too rapidly)

[SeanT]

Originally posted by spamin76
sometimes too rapidly)
Hi Spamin,
Could you elaborate on this please?
Thanks,
Sean

[SPS Addiction]

what is the best way to remove phosphates?

[dirtyreefer]

Originally posted by spamin76
but it is not as efficient as a phosphate remover which can deplete phosphate extremely rapidly(sometimes too rapidly)

I think what he meant was products like ROWA and Phosban can reduce PO4 so rapidly that it may shock your corals. I had this when I used too much of it and TN'd a couple of my corals. Too much of anything isn't a good thing though :)

[SeanT]

I remember these discussions from the SPS forum and I still beleive it was not the reduction of PO4 that caused people to have STN.

Rapid reduction of PO4 to a coral is akin to taking someone out of a smokehouse and into the fresh air.
An extremely low PO4 environment is where SPS live and have evolved into, I don't see how giving it back to them could harm anything.

However, I do believe it may have been the alkalinity fluctuations caused by a too large of an implementation of these products at once which could have done the damamge.

All in all it is very curious.

[dirtyreefer]

Originally posted by SeanT
Rapid reduction of PO4 to a coral is akin to taking someone out of a smokehouse and into the fresh air.

That is a good analogy, however I see this more as a ROWA "withdrawl".

If you take a person that's been smoking for 40 years, and then make him quit cold turkey, there will be a shock, no matter what. Shock all at once normally isn't a good thing, and I sorta see the same thing happening when you suck out all the PO4 from a tank.

This is just my theory so in no way am I a qualified phrenologist :D or chemist in that matter.

[SeanT]

DO NOT MOCK PHRENOLOGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D

The flaw I see in your analogy is whereas nicotine is addicting...are phosphates?

[3f_p@L]

so, is there another way to reduce phosphate besides using FBF, RO/DI water?

talking about FBF, which one is the best media for removing phosphate in your opinion?
Rowa?
Aquaphos?
Phosban?
Phosvec?
Tunze Phosphates absorber?
Azoo phosphates absorber

[3f_p@L]

one more.. if kalkwasser is not an effective way to reduce phosphates , so how to precipitate calcium phosphate effectively (in order to reduce phosphate)?

[SeanT]

The absolute best way to keep po4 levels down is to design your system that way and to practice good husbandry techniques.

"Cooking" your rock, big skimmer, good flow, not overfeeding, good cleanup crew, regular basting or powerheading your rocks, regular water changes etc. will give you the results you are seeking.

I like ROWA, Tunze silphos and phosban mix personally.

hth,
Sean

[3f_p@L]

sorry, silly question again , what d u mean about "cooking your rock"?

maybe curing my rock?

[smoknreefrs]

Originally posted by socal1
what is the best way to remove phosphates? Through away your sand and go BB

[3f_p@L]

Originally posted by smoknreefrs
Through away your sand and go BB


u mean that sand bed is the main source of phosphate?:confused:
i don't think so

[onthefly]

I always thought one of the biggest issues with Rowa was the Iron component that it can leech causing iron toxicity, not the rapid withdrawl of PO4.

How to reduce your PO4?.......Sean T said it best.....adjust your feeding habits and husbandry. You know how much PO4 is in frozen fish food?

I don't keep fish in my reefs.....and have never seen PO4 in those tanks, yet my FOWLR is chaulked full of PO4.

Bottomline, a skimmer cannot remove PO4

[SeanT]

Originally posted by 3f_p@L
sorry, silly question again , what d u mean about "cooking your rock"?

maybe curing my rock?
No such thing as a legitimate, silly question.
Rock cooking is natural biological working for YOU.

Rock Cooking. (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=485572)

Whether you have a DSB, SSB, or a Barebottom tank rock cooking WILL work for you.

hth,
Sean

[dirtyreefer]

Originally posted by SeanT
The flaw I see in your analogy is whereas nicotine is addicting...are phosphates?

Aren't nutrients in the water column considered "food" for the algae which feeds the coral? I'm not sure if that's true or not, but wouldn't removing PO4 down to absolutely nothing be sort of starving the coral which is also shocking?

[SeanT]

No, it would starve out a lot of, but not all of, the zoox though.
Which is beneficial and can help to "un-brown" the coral.

Remember we are talking about miniscual amounts.

NSW has approx. less than 0.005 ppm Phosphate, whereas the Reef Aquaria Recommendation is < 0.03 ppm Phosphate.

The "recommended" difference between the two is SIX TIMES higher than NSW.

Most reefers are hard pressed to even come close to the recommended level.
And have no real chance of reaching the actual NSW levels.

You are in NO danger of starving your SPS of po4.

Sean

[3f_p@L]

thanx guys, always something new to learn!

[dirtyreefer]

Can't argue with a phrenologist :D

Thanks SeanT.

[3f_p@L]

Originally posted by onthefly

I don't keep fish in my reefs.....and have never seen PO4 in those tanks, yet my FOWLR is chaulked full of PO4.

Bottomline, a skimmer cannot remove PO4


but, i've seen many reef tank with a lot of fish while their phosphates level near zero/undetectable.... and they use professional skimmer... and many people said that skimmer can also reduce phosphate... :confused: :confused:

[SeanT]

Quite welcome.
I freely admit that though I am a Marine Phrenologist in general, I specialize in Acroporidae. :)

[SeanT]

Originally posted by 3f_p@L
and they use professional skimmer... and many people said that skimmer can also reduce phosphate... :confused: :confused:
Of course a skimmer can reduce phosphates...by removing them. :)

[3f_p@L]

Thanx Sean T.... u definitely gave me clear answers!!:thumbsup: may i have ur brain to keep my tank for making them always be in a good condition :D ?? (kidding)

[SeanT]

Sure. :)

[onthefly]

A PO4 (just like NO3) is a water soluble molecule that is very hydrophilic....so a skimmer can't remove them at all.....That being said, if the PO4 is in the form of a phospholipid or phosphoprotein, then your in buisness. But our test kits test iPO4, or inorganic PO4 which is regular old PO4. So, if you have PO4 readings.....skim away, they're not going anywhere!!!

The other issue was CaPO4. If the PO4 is precipitated as a particle, then there is the possibility for it to be removed by skimming if you wet skim.

So, skimmer can remove the precursors to, but not the PO4 itself.

[drock59]

3f_p@L

"u mean that sand bed is the main source of phosphate?
i don't think so"


I think so. If you do not a have a "properly" set up sand bed, it can be a major reservoir for phosphate.

Am I missing something here?

[3f_p@L]

If you do not a have a "properly" set up sand bed, it can be a major reservoir for phosphate

if you have a properly sand bed set up, why do you have to go bare bottom?




skimmer can remove the precursors to, but not the PO4 itself
at least it can reduce the level of phosphates in our tank:D

[onthefly]

Basically,

Hypothetically, if you have, say 1ppm PO4....then you install a big, bad arse Euroreef skimmer......and 1 month later you have undetecable PO4. Did the skimmer reduce your PO4? Not really, it kept more from entering the system, while normal PO4 metabolism (by algae, bacteria, corals, etc.) actually reduced the PO4 to undetecable levels.

[drock59]

i went BB because i thought it would be fun to try something new when i started my new tank. Not becuase of any issue with my sandbed.

[Masterofnonsense]

Originally posted by onthefly
Basically,

Hypothetically, if you have, say 1ppm PO4....then you install a big, bad arse Euroreef skimmer......and 1 month later you have undetecable PO4. Did the skimmer reduce your PO4? Not really, it kept more from entering the system, while normal PO4 metabolism (by algae, bacteria, corals, etc.) actually reduced the PO4 to undetecable levels.

True a skimmer can't skim phosphate by itself, but it can skim phyto and bacteria. :) If the items containing phospate are removed by the skimmer, then yes the skimmer did reduce current levels of phosphate.

[onthefly]

Exactly what it said :)

[3f_p@L]

:D thanx again guys!:D i love a clear answer like you gave to me:D