Is anyone successful keeping seahorses at 80 degrees?

[Dag]

I want to plumb the seahorse tank to my main system, which is kept at 80 degrees.

[pledosophy]

Not a good idea buddy. 80 degrees is to hot for seahorses.

[Dag]

I understand that's the accepted opinion. My question was whether anyone was successful keeping them at 80 degrees.

[Debbie4924]

Even if you could be successful they would be miserable and that is just not fair to them.

[luv2diy]

what about 78? is that too high?

[rkl303]

I think you coul turn down the temp in your main tank and your reef would be fine. My tank is at 75 or 73 and everything is kickin well, in fact I got some new color one one of my corals.

[BermudaBabe011]

You can keep them at 80 if need be but I would not go any higher.

[luvabunny]

Not to be a kick in anyone's pants here but.....

My 5 WC reidi are quite comfortable in my 55 gal tank which stays between 78-80 year round. It has been home to my oldest horse for almost 4 years. They produce fry regularly every 19 days or so, so I assume they are happy, healthy, and content.

[PeteGiwojna]

Dear Dag:

Yes, sir, seahorses can be kept at 80°F if you stick with equatorial species that normally experience temperatures in that range in the wild. At those temps, however, you will need to avoid subtropical species and limit yourself to truly tropical seahorses from the equatorial zones.

For a tank like yours, I would recommend obtaining some high-quality, captive-bred Hippocampus ingens from equatorial stock. For example, Carol Cozzi-Schmarris is very familiar with H. ingens from her days culturing High Health shrimp in the tropics, which extend from 7º to 23ºN and 7º to 23ºS. Here's what Carol has to say about the temperature requirements of H. ingens:

<quote> "The Pacific Sea horse (Hippocampus ingens) is a very beautiful and majestic seahorse indeed! Lets take a look at the natural home ranges of the seahorses and the corresponding ocean temperatures from which they come. This will help you to see that this sea horse is a truly tropical and highly social species!

Their geographic range extends from the coastal waters as far North as San Diego during El Nino years and as far South as the Galapagos and northern Peru. Peru is slightly south of the equator where as the Galapagos and Ecuador straddle the equator!! The ocean temperature here averages from 80F to 82F! The H. ingens' range then extends from here up the coast along the Pacific side passing by the Western coast of Columbia (approximately 1-7 degrees latitude), Panama (approximately 7 degrees latitude), Costa Rica (approximately 8-10 degrees latitude), Nicaragua (approximately 10 degrees latitude), El Salvador (approximately 10 degrees latitude), Honduras (approximately 10 degrees latitude) and Guatemala (approximately 14-15 degrees latitude). This whole area has some of the warmest ocean waters on the planet. Warm equatorial currents flow here all year around with the average ocean coastal temperatures being between 82F and 84F and increasing to as high as 90F during the summer (our winter)!! All very hot places with bathtub like ocean temperatures.

This is the main range of this species with coastal waters also being a very, very rich nursery area for Penaeid Shrimp larvae! In fact, the H. ingens (like many sea horses around the world) is a bycatch brought up by local fisherman trawling for shrimp in mostly small wooden pongas (canoe-like boats) but also in larger commercial trawlers. At one time these sea horses were so plentiful and so easy to collect that millions of H ingens were heavily harvested annually for the Chinese medicine market. Now, of course there just are not that many left.

The range now extends into Mexico with a latitude between15-20 degrees. These coastal areas are more familiar to most North Amercians from the large tourism industry. The waters here are still very warm most of the year but do start to cool during the winter with typical ranges being from 72F to 80F. Now we reach Baja California and San Diego (30-32 degrees latitude) where H. ingens has been occasionally seen during the El Nino years. Normally the average temperature of San Diego is a chilling range of 55° F to 65° F (13° C-18.5° C) with the warmer temperatures lasting a few brief months in August and September.

During El Nino years the warmer currents that originate off equatorial Ecuador push further north than normal bringing the high temp up to as high as 72° F to 75° F (22° C-24° C)!! This happens on the average once every 4 years. It is during these brief moments that the Pacific Sea Horse has been seen in southern California. There may even have been and occasional sighting further North but this is not their typical home range...

... These Gigante sea horses are true tropical dwellers! Not only do they like it warm but they have big appetites and they are very social!! You will see beautiful tropical colors and a truly happy and active sea horse if you can keep them in herds and at temperatures from 75° F to 80° F (24° C-26.5° C)!! There is no need for a chiller, that is for sure!! Aloha, Carol" <end quote>

In short, equatorial species such as Hippocampus ingens should do fine at 80°F. Other tropical and subtropical species, however, would be much better off at lower temperatures. In general, in terms of water temperature, seahorses do much better when maintained toward the lower end of their comfort zone rather than toward the upper limit of their heat tolerance. This provides a better margin for error and helps guard against heat stress and temperature spikes during those summertime heat waves.

Heat stress is especially debilitating and dangerous for seahorses due to a number of reasons (Olin Feuerbacher, pers. com.). For one thing, elevated temperatures can have a very detrimental effect on the immune system of fishes. This is because many of the enzymes and proteins involved in their immune response are extremely temperature sensitive (Olin Feuerbacher, pers. com.). Some of these protective enzymes can be denatured and inactivated by an increase of just a few degrees in water temperature (Olin Feuerbacher, pers. com.). So when seahorses are kept at temperatures above their comfort zone, their immune system is compromised and they are unable to fend off diseases they would normally shrug off.

At the same time heat stress is weakening the seahorse's immune response, the elevated temperatures are increasing the growth rate of microbes and making disease organisms all the more deadly. Research indicates that temperature plays a major role in the regulation of virulence genes (Olin Feuerbacher, pers. com.). As the temperature increases, virulence genes are switched on, so microorganisms that are completely harmless at cooler temperatures suddenly become pathogenic once the water warms up past a certain point. Thus both the population and virulence of the pathogens are dramatically increased at higher temperatures (Olin Feuerbacher, pers. com.).

This is true of Columnaris and certain types of Vibrio. At cool temperatures these bacteria are relatively harmless, but at elevated temperatures they become highly contagious, virulent pathogens that kill quickly.

In short, it's doubly important to keep seahorses at the proper temperature. Because of the reasons mentioned above and the fact that water holds less and less dissolved oxygen as it warms up, seahorses generally tolerate temps at the lower end of their preferred range much better than they handle temperatures at the upper limit of their range.

Best wishes with all your fishes, Dag!

Happy Trails!
Pete Giwojna, Ocean Rider Tech Support

[Dag]

Thanks, Pete. There's nothing like experience.

Now where can I can find these hippocampus ingens?

[Juan-Carlos]

Oh my God! Pete your alive!! Oh man Its been forever!! Havent heard from Alisa in ages also! How you been bud! my e-mail is jcreef@bellsouth.net

Sorry to hijack the thread Dag ;) Just havent heard from Pete in ages!!

-Jc

[Seahorsewisprer]

Sea-nemesis?

[Juan-Carlos]

Yep

[PeteGiwojna]

Originally posted by Dag
Thanks, Pete. There's nothing like experience.

Now where can I can find these hippocampus ingens? Dear Dag:

Under the CITES agreement, it's still legal to import seahorses larger than 4 inches, so it's possible that you still may be able to find wild Hippocampus ingens, perhaps through LA marine fish importers or wholesalers. But I implore you to avoid wild-caught seahorses for all the obvious reasons. Suffice it to say that attempting to keep wild ingens will cut down your chances for success considerably.

However, two captive bred strains of H. ingens are now being raised -- a Mexican strain (Eliezer Zúñiga) and a Hawaiian strain (Ocean Rider). Of these two strains of cultured H. ingens, the multigenerational ingens from Hawaii are best suited for an aquarium with water temperatures of 80°F. This is because the H. ingens raised in Hawaii are from equatorial stock obtained throughout the heart of the species range (Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, Panamá, etc.), whereas the Mexican strain of ingens are obviously from the higher latitudes of its range and therefore do not tolerate high temperatures as well. For example, the Mexican strain of H. ingens stops breeding when the water temperature reaches 80° Fahrenheit or above, and may suffer fatal heat stress at water temperatures of 84°-86 ° F. (Eliezer Zúñiga, pers. comm.). The strain of ingens raised in Hawaii is genetically equipped to adjust to 80° temperatures much better, and have the added benefit of coming from a high-health aquaculture facility, meaning they are certified to be free of pathogens and parasites.

Ocean Rider markets their strain of multigenerational, captive-bred-and-raised Hippocampus ingens under the name of Gigantes because of their great maximum size when fully grown. Here is some additional information on H. ingens to give you a better idea of what they're like as aquarium specimens, Dag:

Hippocampus ingens are true giants among the seahorses. They can reach a length of 36 cm or more than 14 inches when fully grown, making them the world's largest seahorses, rivaled only by the biggest examples of H. abdominalis. The prehensile tail of a large adult has a powerful grip like an anaconda, and they can exert enough pressure to leave you counting your fingers afterwards when they squeeze down.

But despite their great size and power, these gentle giants are not at all the brutes you might imagine. They are close relatives of the Brazilian seahorse (H. reidi), and share their slender profile and graceful proportions (Abbott 2003). Imagine a seahorse with the same sleek silhouette as reidi, but which reaches twice their size, and you will have a pretty good picture of what H. ingens is like (Abbott 2003). They are stately steeds, built like thoroughbred racehorses, which carry their size very well. The crowning touch for the King of all the seahorses is a tall, backward-swept, five-pointed coronet, which adds to their majestic appearance (Abbott 2003). They have very prominent eye spines but are otherwise relatively smooth bodied with small blunt spines.

The Hawaiian strain of captive-bred ingens is a bright golden yellow, often further adorned with a lacy latticework of vivid purple-to-lavender lines. The farm-raised specimens are extremely social and don't form permanent pair bonds, whereas their wild counterparts are believed to be monogamous (Giwojna, Jun. 2002). The captive-bred giants are extremely aggressive eaters in comparison to wild-caught H. ingens, and take enriched frozen Mysis as their staple diet (Giwojna, Jun. 2002). When offered live foods, they are active hunters that prefer to chase down their prey rather than waiting for it to come to them (Eliezer Zúñiga, pers. comm.).

It may be helpful for the hobbyist to think of H. ingens as a giant version of the Brazilian seahorse (H. reidi), to which it is closely related. Hippocampus ingens is the only seahorse in the eastern Pacific, and it is closer genetically to the Atlantic H. reidi than any of its western Pacific counterparts (Dames, 2000). In fact, the two are believed to have diverged from a single ancestral species as a result of the formation of the Isthmus of Panama three million years ago (Lourie et al 1999).

The two species are very similar in their behavior and aquarium requirements, and both follow the same reproductive strategy, delivering huge broods of very small fry after a short two-week gestation period that must undergo a prolonged pelagic period of further development amidst the lipid-rich planktonic soup. Like H. reidi, H. ingens is believed to be monogamous in the wild, pairing up for the length of the breeding season at least (Dames, 2000). It is not known if the Pacific Giant forms permanent pair bonds, however, since they disperse and spend winters in the open ocean (Dames, 2000).

Males mature at a length of just over 2 inches (5.4 cm) in the wild (Groves and Lavenberg 1997), but this is a slow growing species and captive-bred H. ingens typically don't mature until the age of 10-12 months (Gomezjurado 1988). The breeding season for H. ingens is restricted by water temperature, but not by the onset of cold weather, as in temperate seahorses; rather, it is rising water temperatures in the heat of summer that ends the breeding season for this tropical species (Eliezer Zúñiga, pers. comm.). The Mexican population of H. ingens begins breeding in late September when the water temperatures decreases below 81°F (27°C), and keep breeding until late May when the water temperatures increase above 80°F again (Eliezer Zúñiga, pers. comm.).

Pair-bonded Pacific seahorses produce large broods of 400 or more fry. The pelagic fry are small (6-8mm) and have proportionally larger dorsal fins than the adults to aid them during their free-swimming pelagic phase, which typically lasts 1-2 months (Gomezjurado 1988) but may persist for 3-4 months in some cases (Eliezer Zúñiga, pers. comm.).

As you can imagine, Dag, Hippocampus ingens is very challenging to raise because the newborns are very small and undergo a very prolonged pelagic phase. To put this in better perspective, H. reidi fry are notoriously difficult to rear for those same reasons, but ingens fry are even tinier than newborn reidi and go through a considerably longer pelagic period as well. The Pacific Giant is also a very slow growing species (most of the greater seahorses reach sexual maturity around the age of six months, but H. ingens typically doesn't mature until 10-12 months of age).

Ocean Rider is working on their next-generation of captive-bred H. ingens (Gigantes) right now, and expects their next crop of these giants to hit the market around Christmas time, so that would be a good time for you to set up the seahorse tank you're planning, Dag.

Best wishes with all your fishes, Dag!

Happy Trails!
Pete Giwojna

[PeteGiwojna]

Originally posted by Juan-Carlos
Oh my God! Pete your alive!! Oh man Its been forever!! Havent heard from Alisa in ages also! How you been bud! my e-mail is jcreef@bellsouth.net

Sorry to hijack the thread Dag ;) Just havent heard from Pete in ages!!

-Jc Howdy, JC!

Yep, still alive and kicking! For a long while now I've been too busy to visit the various seahorse discussion groups much, but now that my new book is finished I hope to have more time to participate in these forums.

I'm doing just fine, keeping busy with my writing as always. I do the monthly Horse Forum columns for FAMA with Carol Cozzi-Schmarr right now and also provide Tech support for
Ocean Rider, time permitting.

It's been a while since I spoke with Alisa either. I'll have to give her a call and see how she's doing (the last time I heard from Ali her computer was down again).

How are things going with you, JC? Are you still collecting your own specimens from those pristine Florida waters (lucky dog!)?

Best wishes with all your fishes, JC!

Happy Trails!
Pete Giwojna

[Seahorsewisprer]

A new book? Does that mean you'll be making the local fish club circuit? SLC is not too far from Hawaii...except for that big ocean....

[NONNA58]

Book? Did you say new book? I am interested. I am sure it is about seahorses right? Please tell me where I can find it. Btw, I have two OR hippocampus erectus for 4 months now that are doing great. My temp stays at about 79-80 all the time. The female is a bit more active then the male but I believe that may be normal for males or so I am being told this by OR.
Sue

[MCsaxmaster]

I'm curious which species folks are normally keeping, as it was my impression that primarily tropical species were available? Are folks actually getting subtropical/temperate sea horses on a regular basis? The species I see the most of are by far H. kuda and H. reidi, both tropical/subtropical species. For any tropical species, I would think 80 F is a reasonable target. In fact, for H. kuda 80 F might be the low end of normal ("winter") throughout much of their range. For tropical H. reidi I don't see that it would make much sense to go below 78 F, or 75 F at the very lowest (again, "winter").

I guess what I'm getting at is that I find it very odd, and fairly nonsensical, to recommend that 80 deg. is too hot without reference to species. In my area, it seems that strictly tropical sea horses are available, hence 80 F would be very appropriate, and I question whether most folks are keeping subtropical/temperate sea horses. It just doesn't make any sense to me to recommend such an unnaturally low temperature range, then.

Last thought: my buddy has been breeding H. kuda for the last year and a half on a small scale. He's been reasonabley successful (I'd say he was on par with most breeders--then he talked to the folks at Shedd extensively, and now he has much, much better success). He maintains his tanks around 80-82 I believe.

Best,

Chris

[DanU]

The temperature issue is interesting. I routinely find both erectus and zosterae in the wild in the high 80's and low 90's. Yet I would bet they would not survive in a closed system at the same temperatures.

Yesterday I was out and recorded erectus in 2 feet of water at 88 degrees and zosterae in just over 2 feet at 87 degrees. This was in the grass flats as the tide was going out. the time before I was out I recorded both erectus and zosterae at 92 degrees. This was at dead low tide when the water is the hottest.

The highest temperature I have seen is 96 degrees and the seahorses seemed to be fine.

I find from personal experience, that the erectus and zosterae do best in the mid 70's and lower in aquaria. Overall, we have less health issues at the lower temperatures.

Dan

[MCsaxmaster]

Hmmmm. I've gotta wonder what might be causing this then. I don't think I'd advocate keeping most species in the upper 80's, but the low and mid 70's is so chilly compared to what most of them see in nature. I would say that, if tropical species do indeed to poorly in a more natural temp. range (say 78-84), we must be doing something very wrong in terms of husbandry, though I haven't the foggiest idea as to what.

Thanks very much for sharing Dan.

Best,

Chris

[MCsaxmaster]

p.s. Maybe O2???

[DanU]

but the low and mid 70's is so chilly compared to what most of them see in nature.
Actually in the winter months the water temps here drop into the 60's and sometimes lower for short periods.

I don't know what the difference is within the species, if there is one, but erectus are also found much further north and in much cooler waters. It is not uncommon for lobster or crab fishermen to find them hitched to their lines or traps. I know of one location in Massachusetts where erectus are found, the peak temperature in summer is about 68 degrees for a very short period of time.

Dan

[MCsaxmaster]

Yes, you're absolutely correct. I meant for the tropical species/populations. My original question I suppose was about origins: most of the sea horses we see around here are tropical in origin, and I have a feeling that most of the seahorses in captivity are as well. If someone were keeping a seahorse from a temperate area, I would expect the temp. regime to be quite different than for a tropical species. In fact, for a temperate seahorse, I would think seasonal variation could prove beneficial, within a normal temp. cycle. For tropical species I think this is not so critical, but perhaps not a bad idea:

Maybe like this--Jan-March at 78, April 79, May at 80, June at 81, July at 82, Aug. at 83, Sept. at 82, Oct. at 81, Nov. at 80, Dec. at 79. Probably not a bad idea, but probably not necessary either. As you point out, the extreme shallows tend to vary in temp. quite a bit anyway.

Best,

Chris

[Debbie4924]

I raise Capensis seahorses which is a temperate species. My temps do vary by season. During the winter months my tanks are at about 66 to 68 degrees and during the summer months they creep up to about 75 degrees. They seem to do real well with this situation.

[Liisa]

I'm going to add just my experience & what works with the
seahorses that I raise.
I now have some 2 month old "erectus" that are 6th. generation
captive bred.
I do believe that H. erectus can withstand some of the
extremes that have been mentioned previously.
HOWEVER, I agree that Pete Giwojna is correct in stating that
they are more comfortable on the lower range versus the upper.
I also think that where a particular seahorse is raised or comes
from, plays a key role in their preference, high health & longivity.

My experience is with H. erectus, and after 6 generations, my
erectus do best in water temps of 72*-74*.
They can tolerate elevated temperatures for a short duration,
however, extended periods between 76*-78*, is very stressful
on them.
Their appetites diminish, they stop producing & this summer I had
my "first" case of air in the pouch of a male.
I burped him, cranked up the air conditioner which dropped the
water back down to their customary summer temp of 72*-74*.

Whenever I sell an H. erectus, I make sure that the buyer is able
to keep them at that temperature.
The only time they call me with a problem is when they decide to
keep them at higher temps (as in connecting to a reef system), or
during the summer if they don't have air conditioning or a chiller.
Freezing 2 liter bottles of water (even a gallon jug, depending on size of tank) will help to bring the temps down.
Most of these calls consist of "tail infections", "Gas Bubble Disease" if left unchecked, "Vibrio", refusing to eat & then just plain going down hill.

I have a diver friend here in San Diego who sees colonies of H. erectus all the time. Last week he called to say he just spotted some seahorses that were double in size of the usual
horses.
I'm assuming these are "ingens".
San Diego waters are anything but tropical except for El Nino
years & even then, they don't approach tropical.

So, my advise is to do your homework as to what species you want to keep, then find a breeder who raises them at those temps.
DanU's seahorses are raised at a higher temp then mine, and therefore are able to withstand them better.
It stands to reason as DanU's stock is raised in Florida & mine
are raised in San Diego, Calif.

Liisa:

[pledosophy]

Liisa darling, my new best friend.:D

Would you mind terribly telling me where in San Diego your friend sees these seahorse colonies.:)

I live in O.C. and would love to drive down and see seahorses in there natural habitat. Would make my year. Really. Just to look, not disturb or collect.

Funny I have never seen you around, but it doesn't look like your around that much, I thought I knew all the local seahorse people.

Hope to see you more often.

Kevin

[NONNA58]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Liisa


My experience is with H. erectus, and after 6 generations, my
erectus do best in water temps of 72*-74*.
They can tolerate elevated temperatures for a short duration,
however, extended periods between 76*-78*, is very stressful
on them.


Okay, So why is OR stating that their erectus like the temperature at 79 degrees. Check out the website.


:confused:

[DanU]

I find from personal experience, that the erectus and zosterae do best in the mid 70's and lower in aquaria. Overall, we have less health issues at the lower temperatures.

We have kept the horses (and we have a bunch) in both ranges . We have found the above to be true. Most folks who have kept horses for any extended period of time have found the same.

Can you keep horses in the upper ranges? Yes! But statistically, you will have more health issues.

Dan

[MCsaxmaster]

I really have to wonder why folks are having problems at these higher temps? H. kuda definitely comes from the tropics, and the ones in captivity are probably mostly from the Philippines (very warm). H. reidi is tropical and subtropical, but most of the ones in captivity are from the tropics (e.g. Brazil). H. zosterae is the same. H. erectus ventures more into temperate waters, but my guess is that most are from the tropics/subtropics.

If they don't do well at a normal, natural temp. range, obviously we're doing something wrong.

Chris

p.s. I double checked with my buddy--he keeps his H. kuda at 80-82--never below 78--and has had very good success breeding. He's also spoken extensively with the folks at Shedd.