Question on color

[pok3mas7er]

For those of you out there that know how seahorse pigmentatino works I have a question for you. I was wondering if it was possible to change the colors of seahorses over time. Similar to how they have been specifically bred to obtain bright colors at OR. I would like to try this with dwarfs though. I had a theory that I would like feedback on.

The theory is that seahorses tend to change colors to blend with their surroundings as a defense mechanism. The idea is to breed the dwarfs in a tank that is completely one color. Like everything is red. The theory is that over generations the slight changes would produce a bright red color, or whatever color the background. If this is done while adding a color stimulant like spirulina or a similar substance to brighten coral colors. Would this work or not?

[jcatblum]

Sounds like it would work to me, I plan on trying it with my eructus fry (whenever my pair start courting) I am going to try some with all orange and some with red. So how long have you been keeping dwarfs? I am really wanting to try some. I just want to make sure I have the regular seahorses down first.

[pok3mas7er]

I've had the dwarfs for approx 4 months now. I would have shipped out some of the current batch of fry but if you haven't read on another thread there was a HUGE catastrophe when i left for the weekend. Feeding wasn't done correctly and there were gammarus all over the tank. One of which was devouring an adult. Everything seems to be in order now though. PM me and i can let you know more about the dwarfs.

[Seahorsewisprer]

Pok, seahorses have an internal chromosphere thing. If they don't have the right chromospheres, they can't make the color. They get these from their diet. If they have the ability, then they wil color.

I just ORs Vibrance so I'll let you know if that is just theory!

[rkl303]

The only problem with testing out your theory pokemon is that you might have a problem with imbreeding if you are not keeping a sufficient sized population with the same setting. I'd love to see it done though

[indoreefer]

Once I get my setup going I will try this experiment as well. The chromospheres you are talking about, do you know what food they are in and anything about them.

[Samala]

If seahorse color does not have a genetic basis - such as if it were based almost entirely on their surrounding environment or the ability of their chromospheres to absorb pigments from their food - then how does OR line breed to produce the color in their horses that we see? Are they just happenstance?

If we cant breed for color maybe we could breed for pattern, like those marbled fun SH OR sometimes has. Or the erectus I see with stars and stripes and tails with slight lines.

>Sarah

[pok3mas7er]

RKL, yeah I was thinking about that as well. What could be done with that though is if i have enough different color strains going I can borrow some from a similar color. Like take a few reds and mix them with the oranges.

Aero, I was also thinking about that diet. I've been looking around for things that will enhance color. I know that spirulina plays a big part. Some of the LFS people have said to try adding substances that you add to fine filter food when feeding corals to brighten their color. I haven't gotten that much into biology because i've spent so long in the graphic design field because that's what i've always wanted to do but can't stand it anymore so that's why i'm just now getting started into biology and later marine biology

Samala, can you kind of repeat that in an easier to understand manner. It's not that I am dumb I am on a lot of meds right now because of all the dental work being done. And i'm trying to stay on top of this thread but I have wisdom teeth removed tomorrow so i'll be flying high.

Anyone else who is trying out this theory please let me know your findings.

[rkl303]

Ah pain killers...share the wealth =D

[indoreefer]

If seahorses are anything like frogfish, they change for their environment, but for OR to have such vivid colors, there must be a gene related to thier color. Sounds like punet square time.
lol

[leheath]

I think there must be some genetic basis for seahorse colour, otherwise the OR horses could change colour if you don't feed them what they are feeding them. Has anyone heard of this happening? Perhaps the genetic basis relates to which chromoshperes the horse is capable of absorbing from its diet? Thus each seahorse could be a limited variety of colours based on which chromoshperes it can absorb from its food and its actual colour is determined by its environment and the available food(s)?

Just a thought..... :)

[pok3mas7er]

Well from what I remember in biology classes and from just random tangents of learning. Seahorses are similar to chameleon's. Both are slow and don't have a whole lot of natural defense mechanisms like oozing toxins and what not. So they have to rely on their ability to match surroundings and stay very still. This is why the theory existed. Because the difference between a chameleon and a seahorse is the range of which the seahorse can change colors. Chameleon's can go from a bright green to a dark brown in a matter of seconds. (these are the only colors i've witnessed) There has to be some breeding similar to what I am thinking with extremely enriched substances because, leheath, your right. If you stopped feeding their food they would just lose their color. If that were the case I'm sure OR would go out of business from irrate customers for paying that much for colorful seahorses that lose their color.

Well hopefully this topic continues. I will check back on it in a few days as this is the last post before the teeth get removed. I wonder if it would be easier to be a fish and not have this junk done.

[Seahorsewisprer]

Ok, here is a quote from Pete Giwojna, author and OR Rep:


"Seahorses are truly the chameleons of the sea with a propensity for changing color in response to a wide range of environmental factors, hormonal influences, and behavioral interactions. I like to say the seahorse's amazing ability to change color would literally turn a chameleon green with envy, for our aquatic equines can express a wide range of colors.

Seahorses accomplish color changes through the contraction or expansion of pigment cells known as chromatophores. Each chromatophore is a contractile cell or vesicle containing liquid pigment and capable of changing its form or size, thus causing changes of color in the skin of the animals that possess them. The chromatophores may be under nervous control and able to change very rapidly or under hormonal control and able to change only relatively slowly.

In seahorses, the chromatophores are branched (dendritic) cells, within which the color pigment can be moved. When a chromatophore contracts, all of its pigment is concentrated in one small spot in the center of the cell, resulting in the loss of color in the fish. When a chromatophore expands, the pigment spreads throughout the entire cell to all its branches, resulting in bright color.

Different types of chromatophores contain different pigments such as melanin (black), xanthin (yellow), lipochrome (orange), erythrin (red) and so on. The different types of chromatophores are named according to the type of pigment they contain (e.g., melanophores, erythrophores and xanthophores). These specialized pigment cells are usually stacked upon each other or clustered in groups. Hippocampus is typically endowed with 3 or 4 different types of chromatophores, and all other colors are derived from these 3 or 4 basic pigments. The exact color the seahorse displays at any given time therefore depends on the concentration of these pigment cells, how close the cells are to the surface of the skin, and which chromatophores are expanded or contracted at the moment.

For example, seahorses have no blue pigment cells, but the color blue can be approximated nonetheless. A low concentration of melanin (black pigment) deep in the dermal layer gives the skin of the fish a bluish cast. Achieving a blue tint in this way while simultaneously expanding xanthophores (yellow pigment cells) produces shades of green, and maintaining a bluish background color while opening erythrophores (red pigment cells) yields shades of purple and violet. Likewise, a seahorse that has no orange pigment cells can still assume a bright orange coloration by simultaneously expanding its xanthophores (yellow pigment cells) and erythrophores (red pigment cells) to the fullest. The exact shade of orange it becomes and its brightness is determined by the proportion of yellow to red cells it opens, how fully they are expanded, and how close to the skin’s surface they are. Obviously, a seahorse that is black has all its melanophores expanded and a seahorse that is white has ALL of its chromatophores contracted so that all the wavelengths of visible light are reflected back to the observer, and so on.

In seahorses, melanophores are the most common of these pigment cell types. They contain the pigment melanin, which gives most seahorses their typical black or dark brown coloration. Essentially melanin absorbs the entire visible light spectrum and looks black because no light is reflected back to the observer. When a melanophore is open and fully expanded, the melanin it contains is dispersed throughout the cell, and when all the melanophores are opened at once, melanin is distributed evenly across the surface of skin, rendering the seahorse black. Seahorses typically respond to stress by expanding their melanophores and darkening this way.

The different types of pigment cells seahorses possess varies from species to species. Hence, not all seahorses have the same palette of colors at their disposal. Some seahorses can never turn red because they lack erythrophores; red is simply not in their wardrobe. In general, tropical seahorses tend to have brighter colors in their repertoire than temperate species. And deep-water seahorses often have more red and orange pigment cells than other seahorses. In order words, different seahorse species have different coloration due to the differential proliferation of chromatophore cell types.

Colorful Ocean Riders, for example, are not homozygous recessives nor or they mutations that are unable to manufacture certain pigments altogether. But they do exhibit differential proliferation of chromatophores and this gives each type a predisposition to display certain colors. Mustangs have a preponderance of melanophores, for instance, and tend to be dark (earth tones) or cryptically colored most of the time. But 'stangs also have bright pigment cells and they can brighten up when the occasion calls for it, such as during courtship or when competing for mates.

I own a pair of these spirited steeds myself, and have watched them go through a number of color phases from month to month. One has settled on gray-green as its base coloration for the moment, and the other ranges between rust, burnt umber, and orange, but always with contrasting beige bands. Last season, the male adopted a rich ochre yellow as his everyday attire (still with the same beige bands, though), while the female displayed a dark purplish ensemble with definite greenish highlights. When courting, they consistently brighten to a pearly white and a creamy yellow respectively. They make a handsome couple, and I find my Mustangs to be very attractive specimens in all their guises.

Sunbursts, on the other hand, are equipped with a full range of chromatophores and can display a wide range of colors, but they are predisposed towards the sunset colors (yellow, gold, peach and orange) when conditions are to their liking. However, they have a complete complement of melanophores in addition to their bright pigment cells and are able to change their coloration to reflect changing circumstances and conditions.

The hobbyist should also be aware that there are any number of environmental conditions that can affect the coloration of seahorses, often by affecting the ability of chromatophores to contract and expand. These include the following factors:

Stress -- seahorses often respond to stress by darkening.

Emotional state -- when excited, seahorses typically brighten in coloration, reflecting a state of high arousal.

Competion for mates -- dominant individuals brighten; subordinate seahorses darken in submission.

Poor water quality -- high levels of nitrogenous wastes (e.g., ammonia, nitrite or nitrate) can cause chromatophores to contract and colors to fade.

O2/CO2 -- low oxygen levels (or high CO2 levels) can cause colorful seahorses to fade and they will blanch when subjected to hypoxic conditions.

Background colors -- seahorses will often change color in order to blend in with their immediate surroundings.

Medications -- some antibiotics and malachite-green-based remedies negatively affect color.

Tankmates -- seahorses may change their base coloration to blend in with the rest of the herd or to match their mate (or a potential partner).

Temperature -- chromatophores tend to contract at high temperatures, causing colors to fade; cooler temps can make pigment cells expand, keeping colors bright.

Disease -- skin infections (bacterial, fungal, or parasitic) can cause localized loss of pigmentation or discoloration of the affected areas.

Diet -- seahorses cannot synthesize the pigments used in their chromatophores. It is therefore important to enrich their food with pigments such as carotenoids in a form that’s easy for them to absorb. If color additives are not provided, the chromatophores will gradually lose their pigments and the seahorse’s color can fade. Vibrance, for example, is exceptionally rich in Vitamins A and C as well as natural carotenoids, which are not found in Mysis relicta. This is important because the carotenoids are a class of yellow to red pigments, which include the carotenes and the xanthophylls. Like all cells, individual pigment cells have a limited life expectancy in the body and must be regularly renewed. Marine organisms cannot synthesize carotenoids, so if they do receive adequate amounts in their diet, they will have difficulty replenishing their red and yellow pigments. This means that the colors of bright yellow, orange, and red seahorses will gradually fade over time if their daily diet is lacking in carotenoids. So don’t neglect the enrichment step in your daily feeding regimen! If seahorses are fed a strict diet of Mysis relicta without additional enrichment, they may begin to develop dietary deficiencies over time, and both their health and coloration will eventually suffer.


Happy Trails!
Pete Giwojna"

[Samala]

Cool.. so looks like Leheath and I were on the right track. From Pete's notes (thanks for posting Aero!) it seems that environmental factors (diet, stress, habitat surroundings) have much more of an influence on color than genetic expression.

As Pete noted, some of the SH lines show a preference for having more of one type of chromosphere (red, yellow, black, etc) and they pass on this to their offspring it seems. So, this is the only part of color we can breed for - being predisposed to having more of one kind of chromosphere and, thus, a certain 'normal' range of color. So, instead of breeding for a color, we'll be breeding for a chromosphere.

I must say, the types of cells governing these color changes remind me distinctly of the cephalopods.. really interesting. Oh, and this is a lot more complicated than normal land horses' coat color genetics. At least with that you are working with only a few alleles! Silly environmental influence makes this SH color topic a little muddy. :)

>Sarah

[pok3mas7er]

Ok, so that would kind of make my theory correct to a certain extent. Provided the seahorse has the right chromosphere to change to that color. For if given perfect water conditions the only things effecting color would be competition for mating, background color, and food enrichment. I actually think i need to lower the temperature in the tank as well since i've read all over that when the temps are cooler they tend to mate more often. And that would help with the color factor too because the chromospheres would expand. I got used to keeping the water on the higher end of the ok temp spectrum because it usually helps with keeping fish healthier and happier. Depending on region of course. Thank you Aero for doing all the back work. Oh RKL sure. We could set up something, hehe, I'm not taking any painkillers yet for the wisdom teeth. Little swelling but nothing too major.