My "Rescued" Moorish Idol Is Developing Ich. What Do I Do? Need help fast!

[Reef Maniac]

Some of you may know I just rescued a Moorish Idol. I knew the breed was difficult to keep. But I had to save her from her previous home.

I just noticed what appears to be ich. (tiny white spots, about 10-20 of them.

I never had a fish with ich before, so I really don't know the process. I did a search through the forums, and didn't find nothing about a Moorish Idol w/ ich.

I currently have a Q-tank plumbed to my system. Should I put her in there? If so, then what?

I do have a pair of cleaner shrimp but she doesn't go near them. Should I get a cleaner wrasse? I had a cleaner wrasse, but my six-line beat it up. What do I do? Will the other fish get it?

I heard something about garlic??? What kind? minced?

Please Help!

[FMarini]

Hi:
NO stress here.
There are two real time tested methods to eliminate ich. Copper based medicine(cupramine is the best) and hyposalinity. Hyposalinity has recieved a tremendous amount of press here. Please do a search for hyposalinity, also a search in the fish disease section will also yeild more help.

Since you have a Qtank (hopefully you can isolate it from the main system). You can treat in this tank
frank

[Chemist]

Never had a Moorish Idol, but Ich is Ich..................

Definitely get the fish into the Q-tank! I found that UV sterilization is remarkably effective on a Q-tank in combination with copper treatment. After two weeks or so, all signs of ich should be gone. When you say the q-tank is plumbed into your system, you don't mean that the water is shared between the tanks, do you? If so, you will want to create an isolated water system for the q-tank.

Chemist

[Reef Maniac]

Yes, I can close the Q-tank off to the system. I set it up so that I could easily drain it (into house plumbing) or drain to sump. And refill with display tank water.

P.S. Moderators: Can you move this to fish desiese and treatment forum? ( I forgot we had that one) Thanks!

[cal3v]

Just have to add that if your fish has ich, there is definately ich in your water now. Moving it might just induce more stress.

[Reef Maniac]

Oh thats lovely news calv3. :( So what do I do? :confused:

[naesco]

Because you have been monitoring the Moorish Idol you are lucky to see the ich early.
If the MI is eating feed it and all the other fish in your tank dry foods (nori, plankton, flake) soaked in garlic extract. Put some food aside, drop some garlic extract on it and let it soak in for 20 minutes or so. Feed often and only garlic soaked food. The idea
here is to concentrate as much garlic in the fish as possible.
The ich will disappear in 3 days but continue.
Do this for a couple of weeks.
Treat your sailfin as well.
If the MI will not eat the garlic soaked food remove it to the QT and treat with your preferred chemical. I have had success with Greenex. I have had no success with copper but some claim it works too.
Under no circumstances should you put any chemical into your main tank.
I know your are very aggitated but understand that any drastic action will stress not only the MI, Sailfin but other fish in your tank.
I would not return the MI to the main tank either. Sorry.

[Reef Maniac]

Naesco: The MI is not in the Q-tank, The sailfin is.
The MI is in the display tank. Do I switch the two?

[cal3v]

Didn't mean to break it to you like that, reefmaniac. One note on hyposalinity: if you remove the fish, treat it, and put it back in the main tank if it gets stressed again it will catch the ich again. Same goes with meds. So, I also suggest the garlic treatment.

[naesco]

Yes I would put the MI in the QT and the Sailfin back in the Main tank. Feed both tanks only garlic soaked food.
If you do not have garlic extract on hand tonight use garlic cloves.
Squish the juice out and soak the dried food.
You can even use the tiny garlic pieces which the fish will eat but try to avoid getting it on coral as it may irritate some of them.
Oh yes it is unflavoured garlic extract you are looking for not garlic oil.

[naesco]

You have mail.

[organicreefer]

some advocate using garlic.......i dont know,it might not hurt the fish.......:p
ime most any fish that is eating and in decent health can lick a case of ich....on their own
provided hes not under the constant stress of being bullied,all you really need to do is make the fish as "comfortable" as possible...keep the temp at around 80 or a little over ,but more importantly ,KEEP IT STABLE!......and wasnt it in the old nyquil commercial, where the fat guy with the deli sandwich goes.."what you wanna do is feed a cold";) :crazy1:lol

but seriously ,feed ALOT small amounts often of food soaked in selcon and any other vitamin supplements you may use...
when i have a fish come down with ich i try to feed a few times a day and do alot of small water changes.i also like to use mechanical filtration during this procces to prevent any fouling from over feeding.
jme/o:)

[Reef Maniac]

OK, I just went to the grocery store (actually 2) To get the garlic extract. The employees kinda looked at me weird buying garlic juice at 1:00 in the morning. :rolleyes: But anyways, I got it (well I think this is it...)
http://www.rmgconstruction.com/garlic.jpg

1. Is this the right stuff?
2. How much do I use per feeding?
3. Do I soak the nori in it to?
4. How often should I feed?


The Ingredients read:
"Water extract of fresh garlic cloves, Citric acid, Guar gum, less than 0.1% potassium sorbate added as preservative and sodium bisulfite."

[cal3v]

Just take a container, and soak any food you feed in the juice, although I am not sure if that is the right juice. Feed often and in small amounts.

[naesco]

Is this the stuff?
No, you want garlic extract (without water added) which you can buy in a health food store. (it is concentrated).
How much to use?
Without adding water use a dropper to completely soak (20 minutes) the dried food, nori or dried shrimp with the extract in a small container. Use just enough garlic extract to get the dried food completely wet.
How often to feed?
Feed just garlic soaked food much more than you normally do as the idea is to get as much garlic in the fish as possible.

[The Perfect Pet]

Not sure if that will be o.k. to use. It could be more like barlic oil.
Isn't guar gum a sugar? Might not want to use that?
Kent makes a liquid garlic extract, and Aquarium Eco-systems also makes a garlic extract.
I faithefully use the Kent product at work on all of our tanks several times a week, just as a preventative. I also just started using it at home because I have a show-off powder blue tang who can't seem to kick the ich. I will post again if I notice a significant change in his condition since adding the garlic extract.

[Circa]

Reef Maniac don't give up I know your trying everything you can to have success with the MI, and if you keep it up you are bound too.

:cool:

[Ironreef]

AS FM said the only proven cure is hypo and copper . garlic can help but I belive if the fish is stressing garlic won't do a thing. i would remove the fish into a qtank try the garlic if you wish there. It may work in the main also but it could spread to your other fish. even if it is in the system the othrer fish if healthy can rid it on its own. I've seen a few reefers lose there fish with only using garlic. Its not absolute or the best IMO/IME. But in my case it has worked for slight out breaks but never for full blow case.

[TerryB]

You really need to read a thread that is on the reef message board right now titled "Hyposalinity...I am scared." You will save yourself a lot of grief and trouble if you read the entire thread carefully. It is long and agrumentative, but there is a lot of vaulable, pertinent info in it that you need right now.
Terry B

[Marty M]

Hey RM,
It may not be fun but it's gonna be ok. You probably caught it in time. Copper will be very difficult to use because of your corals and not having a cycled treatment tank. Hyposalinity is the only other "cure"for ICH. Something you said in a previous post concerns me now. You said the Sailfin was gilling really fast. What is going on with him now? How is EVERY fish behaving and breathing now? Which fish are affected so far? Are the spots on the Idol the only sign of illness in your whole system? What I am hoping, is that an isolated outbreak of ich is the only problem you have. If it is, you have the option of a full hyposalinity cure wich may affect none or some of your inverts, or a trial of reduced salinity and garlic. Reduced salinity and garlic will help but it is not a cure. Many of us have reported minor outbreaks that went away on its own or with the help of these two treatments, especially if only one fish is affected. I wouldn't delay if there is a mass outbreak though, in which case only a full course of hyposalinity is a cure. The garlic can only help.

Another serious concern is that they might also be infected with oodinium which is often confused with ich. Oodinium is fast and deadly and only treated with copper. If many of the fish are in distress, even without any visible spots then you have to consider it. Hypo won't help that at all. Get up early and assess the situation if they are already sleeping. It probably isn't the case but if you miss it they will all die without quick treatment.

I would say your best case scenario is that reduced salinity along with garlic gets your Idol better and keeps the others healthy. I'd say this outbreak should delay returning your Sailfin for at least several weeks. The stress on the Idol too soon will cause a relapse.
Scenario #2 is that you do the full hypo treatment for a month. Move any inverts that become overly stressed, in with your Sailfin, along with lots of live rock and caulerpa. Take the Qtank off line and maintain the salinity at the lowest level they will tolerate. If the Sailfin has, or starts to show, symptoms he'll have to go back to the main tank for the full treatment and hope for the best with your Idol.

The worst case is that they have oodinium. You will have to treat with copper outside of your main tank. You will need a bio filter though and the only option I can see is to sacrifice your refugium substrate and some more sand from the main tank. It's definitely not ideal and even risky if there are too many worms and such that die off. All you want is the denitrifying bacteria. Another option is to persuade a LFS or aquarists to sell you a large quantity of bioballs from one of their trickle towers. They have to be transported quickly and in water.
drop a line if you have questions
Marty

[Marty M]

Wow, I started writing this book before Ironreef and TerryB posted. I was thinking the same thing as Ironreef about isolating the obiously infected Idol. It wouldn't be the best thing for the Idol but it would be a lot easier on everyone else if they haven't been exposed yet. That's the thing. You don't know that. It's also possible your fairly new Naso brought it in and hasn't shown symptoms yet, or you have missed them until now. If the Idol brought it in, it's probably a little too late for that strategy. Even if none of the cysts have detached yet, they would when you tried to net her. In a best case scenario, one guaranteed plus of Ironreefs idea is that you could dip the Idol to remove the visible cysts and treat the wounds. You still need a biofilter for the Idol if you take the Q off line. I think the additional stress is risky.

[gfish]

.

[npaden]

For those who are saying that garlic is not a proven method of dealing with ich, I feel that it has some strong anectdotal evidence and some scientific evidence as well.

Here is an excellent article by Horge on the subject:
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html

FWIW, Nathan

Good luck with the fish RM - I've used garlic extract about 2 years ago for my only ich outbreak and it was gone in a couple days.

[acrophoria]

JUST MY .02c trying to catch a fish will stress it out more than it already is,I like to feed 3 to 4 times a day if fish has ich,when are your fish most happy?when they are eating probbaly.stay away from the tank you stress him as well.is your purply still bothering the mi?:( wish you luck

[maroun.c]

Reef Maniac,
it is true garlic has had some success, it worked for me many times....
The only difference here is that you are deeling with one of the most sensitive yet gorgeous fish. IMO i wouldn't risk testing garlic which still has lots to proove about effectiveness and dosages....
it sure can relieve the fish but with a MI i would be looking for the perfect cure.
I purchased a MI long ago when i was new in the hobby and no one taught me better(so no flaming please), 2-3 days after it ate and everything went normal for a week then it had 2-3 spots I decided to feed it well and watch, on the following day it was so covered with spots that i coulden't see the colours one day after it was dead. This is not a tang that gets ich every day and can live with it and sometimes makes it on his own.
Take my word try to get a separate Q tank treat with hyposalinity or copper i'd personally go with hyposalinity for I don't know if MI can tolerate copper i would try to keep the display tank fishless for 4-6 weeks. Also i would take the sailfin to another Q tank (other than that's of the MI) and keep him there for the same period of time. This way if any of the fish or hopefully both make it back they'll be getting back to a healthy tank. I'm assuming you have no other fish than these 2.
Wish you all the luck for it's really one of the most beautiful fish. Keep us posted on what you did and it's outcome.
Maroun

[organicreefer]

also fwiw,some guy on howard stern said garlic would prevent anthrax:rolleyes: :p :D

[Reef Maniac]

Update: I just fed the tank with garlic soaked Brine and mysis. And everyone ate it, including the MI and the sailfin.

I really want to try to cure the MI in the main tank because if I take her out and put her in the Q-tank, I would have to re-introduce her to the display tank. And then everything would start all over again!

I will take her out as my last option. I hope the garlic treatment will work. She is eating it. But I'm using frozen brine, and garlic "juice". I'm going to my LFS, and LHFS (local health food store) ;) right now, to get the right garlic extract. What kind of food should I get? Dry Brine shrimp?

Thanks Everyone! You guys are great!

[Reef Maniac]

Oh, by the way. Feel free to call me (email me for my #). I would love to talk rather than type! -Roye-mail (rmginc@cox.net)

[naesco]

I am really happy your MI is eating the garlic soaked food..
If you can get it to eat dry food as opposed to frozen it is better because the dry will absorb more of the garlic extract than food that is already moist.
Feed all fish including the sailfin as much as you can

[Reef Maniac]

I know I need dry food. What kind? Brine?

[Reef Maniac]

Hey, While I'm out at the LFS, should I pick up a few cleaner wrasse's?

[Marty M]

If they are eating Seaweed Selects or nori , it works well. I moisten it with tank water for a minute to soften it. Then drain it and add the garlic. Wait a few minutes and you are ready to feed some of it. Prepare enough for a full day so the garlic can really soak in.

[Reef Maniac]

OK, Is this the stuff? It was $25.00 at health store. It is Kyolic aged Garlic Extract.
http://www.rmgconstruction.com/garlicex.jpg

[naesco]

No do not buy a cleaner wrasse. Their chance of survival in our tanks is very poor. They are best left in the ocean to do their good job.
Consider instead a school of cleaner gobies but never add them to a tank that you are medicating. (garlic OK)
You can purchase freeze dried plankton, krill or brine which will absorb the garlic extract much better.

The Kyolic stuff is the right stuff. Twenty five bucks, eh!
They must have know you are a reefer.
:)
Keep us informed on the ich and the Moorish Idol's condition.

[Ironreef]

The garlic may work. Hope it does but ime I've seen alot of fish not recover with just garlic treatments personally= ppl I know ,one fish I had(lost) to not be convinced it will help with a full blown out break. I've had fish for along time never ever experienced bad outbreaks of ick untill a few mo ago. I had my first fish lost to ick and garlic didn't do a thing for me. I should have removed the fish and did proper treatment. JMO/ JME. Not saying it won't work but IMo if you don't see any results in the next 2-3 days i would remove the fish

[naesco]

Ironreef I would recommend 3-5 days. Two days will not be enough unless you pour the stuff down its throat.
I was surprised to see the bottle of garlic juice available instead of the garlic extract.
What was the garlic product you used and how did you use it?
At what stage did you commence using it?
If a fish were quite involved with ich I would recommend the QT treatment for that fish and garlic treatment for the balance of fish in the tank.
I am anxious to see what success reef maniac has here as he caught the ich early.
He has an outstanding tank. It would be a shame to have to take it apart to scoop out the fish and place them in a small QT for a month. Let's all cross our fingers.:( I know it works on tangs. I hope it works on the MI and the other fish in his tank.

[Ironreef]

5 day garlic treatment . i would also like to see how effective

[Reef Maniac]

Whoops, sorry naesco, I bought a cleaner wrasse :rolleyes: I put him in the tank, and within 30 seconds he started to pick the parasites off the MI! It was amazing! But my 6-line started to chase him around. I was keeping them separate as the CW was cleaning the MI and the tangs. It was like they were inviting him!
I had to leave for a few hours, I just got back and the CW is nowhere to be found :( That didn't last too long :(

Cleaner gobies huh? A school of 'em?

P.S. All the fish are eating the garlic soaked foods!

[naesco]

OK he has a six line wrasse.
Has anybody had any experience in keep cleaner gobies with six line wrasse?

[Chemist]

I haven't seen it recommended here (besides by myself earlier in te thread), but I would recommend using a UV sterilizer on your tank if you choose not to use a q-tank. It will kill the waterborne form of ich and oodinium. You will also lose some of the waterborne 'critters' in your tank, but there will be plenty of these in your rock and substrate to replenish the population after treatment.

I would recommend two weeks with the sterilizer on 24hrs/day followed by one week with it on 12hrs/day, then 12hrs/day every other day, etc. until you phase out its use. This will give your fish a chance to build their strength and reduce the population of parasites so that the fish can fight the remaining parasites themselves.

And use the garlic!

Chemist

[normano]

Hey guys, how come it has to be garlic concentrate? Is it not so effective just using a natural garlic clove and using the juice from it? I just read a whole heap of different opinions in one go on this thread and I'm a little confused as some people use natural garlic too. :D

[lobmanone]

For what it's worth, I have always had worse luck trying to medicate a tank than treating the fish well and crossing my fingers. Copper scares me. My own opinion is that a reef tank has "natural medicinal quality" and you should just keep it stable. Don't laugh, but I had a friend keep a Moorish Idle for a very very long time feeding the thing chopped up earthworm. It was fat and sassy, and very happy. Best of luck.....I've never had the courage to try one, but it's one of my favorite fish.

Shane

[Reef Maniac]

UV Sterilizer?
Will that help? I will get one, if it will help. I will try everything to keep this guy alive, AND in the display tank! Anyone second the UV Sterilizer?

If so, what kind? how big?

[naesco]

Normao there is nothing wrong with garlic extract crushed from a fresh clove. It does get a little messy and smelly though. Do it if you don't have the extract but the extract is very convenient.

[Reef Maniac]

Read This! (http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=AQUAUV-25WT&Category_Code=UV)

This sounds like what I need.

[normano]

Thanks naesco, when the time comes that my fish do get ich, I'll get the garlic out!!

[organicreefer]

five bucks says RM'S cleaner wrasse turns up and lives a long happy life ...any takers????:p

[Reef Maniac]

I just got off the phone with Naesco, and he brought up a good point: "Are we sure it is ich?" Hmmmm... How do I know for sure?

[Ironreef]

IMO your gonna end up spending alot for a uv that won't cure the fish. UV aren't very effective= the water needs to pass through them. You need a large one for a high kill. The parasites remain on the fish then they drop onto the substrate. Sure a good large uv will kill ick but it's gonna kill pods,kill phytoplankton all the good stuff you have or add. UV are good gfor a fo but imo I wouldn't want one in a reef. if it's doing what its suppose to then its killing all kinds of good bugs also. if it isn't then its porbally not killing the ick. I doubt it will do a thing for the idol. neon gobies do act as cleaner but cost $$ the wrasse probally will do the same to them? Cleaner shrimp if you get 2 they do a good job of cleaning. 2 cuz 1 maybe shy. 2 has always worked for me. But still you are gonna spend alot of $$ when putting it in a qtank doing hypo garlic also if you wish would be the better more sure way. Still even if the garlic is gonna work its still gonna take a few more days to see.

[Ironreef]

the cleaner wrasse 5 bucks. The 6line won't have it. IME they are mean fish to smaller ones . the cleaner eats the same foods but.... ick well if it's not the garlic won't work hypo maynot either then you may need to medicate it. Not worth the stress trying to save a fish. I've save fish but qtanked them. they still died IME. I shouldn't have tried to save them cuz a few weeks later the lfs got another and someone else bought it. mean cycle. I don't shop those places anymore

[Reef Maniac]

So, get a UV? Don't get a UV? :confused:
I could possibly borrow a UV From my LFS...?
Give it a few days to see if the garlic works?

I'm so confused! :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[naesco]

Organic reefer
He has a huge anenome.
The cleaner wrasse was breakfast.:eek:

[Marty M]

You can't go wrong reducing salinity a bit also. If the garlic isn't adequate you'll have to do it anyway. Even a partial reduction will affect a percentage of the parasites. It also gives the fish a little relief. If you are not going to go for the full hypo treatment, give them every advantage you can. None of these things is a cure, but garlic helps, uv helps, low stress environment helps, good nutrition helps, parasite pickers help, and reduced salinity helps. I would take it down as far as it's tolerated. Go all the way if nothing is bothered. Are any other fish affected yet? If any of them are having trouble breathing, it might not be ich.

[TerryB]

Did you ever read the detailed thread on ich that I suggested? This thread really belongs on the disease message board where the reef central disease experts Bill and Frank will comment. I can tell you that the advice you are getting here is not going to save the MI. I just hope you don't take my comments lightly because I know as much about treating fish disease as anyone you are likely to talk to on the internet. Not bragging here just a fact. I am telling you this so you take a serious look at what I said to you in my previous post. I just want to see a positive outcome and I think you are headed the wrong direction.
Terry B

[Marty M]

A uv is only going to help. If you have the bucks it's a nice item for the first aid kit. It won't do irreparable damage if you use it short term. Any cysts that mature on the fish and fall off, are going to turn into thousands. A uv is going to kill a portion of them, just like a bug zapper for your backyard. Garlic seems to repel them. They don't attach in as great a number and many, but not all, will fall off prematurely. They should fall off within hours of eating garlic. "Reduced" salinity interrupts the life cycle of a percentage of them. Hyposalinity interrupts the life cycle of 100% of them.

[Ironreef]

why i say uv aren't very effective. Seems all the years I've been on the bboard most or alot of ppl who seem to have ick problems do have uv. This is another reson why ppl think ick may always be in the system. which it may if you have fish thats a different debate. Buy the uv do all the stuff imo the idol needs to be qtanked. JMO I would read the hypo thread.

[organicreefer]

alright maybe i should read his stock list first...quite a list too....bets off:p

[Reef Maniac]

I was thinking I should lower the salinity. How will I know when it is too low? How low is acceptable?

[naesco]

Terri B
I was a little taken back by your post.
You have gone on record on a number of occasions as supporting the proper use of the garlic treatment for MILD cases of ich.
Assuming we are dealing with ich, have you now changed your mind?
Please explain this to me.
If your previous statements that garlic could work in mild cases of ich, is not the better course for our friend to try this first rather than immediately tear down his beautiful tank to remove his fish and place them in his small QT for one month?
If we do not see improvement in 3 to 5 days can we not than take this drastic step which you are proposing?
I am concerned about this very tender Moorish Idol species which I have no experience with other than understanding its fragility.
I am concerned that it may not survive period. Are you not concerned that subjecting a MI with hyposalinity or chemical treatment with copper may simply be too much for this species?
Is not the wisest course to wait a few days to see if the garlic will work as you have previously suggested in this instance?
Please understand I am not here to debate you but to give the best possible advice to another reefer

[maroun.c]

i've been doing lots of reading on garlic and as i said in my previous post i came to trust it and used it with some success but that was to relieve relatively strong fish from ich induced by some stress.. however lets not forget this is a MI one of the most precious fish. lots of persons tear down their tanks to remove a damsel. It could be a pain to tear the tank down but you can take the advantage and do a major cleanup or redecorate(should have studied marketing)
Garlic mostly work to make your fish invisible to the parasite however the parasite is not killed and it will live and reinfect all of your fish at the slighteset break in their immune system. garlic can sure work for prevention as one feeding per week but to erradicate a problem you should be able to assume that all the fish have taken daily enough doses to be invisible for the parasite and that for a long period to have the parasite die of lack of host. I always had ick problems and used to treat each fish alone in the Q tank and no wonder the fish always got ich once back in the tank. i was checking out my records and realised that the only few months that my fish really did great was after i did hyposalinity in the display tank and i mean 1.009 which you can't do as you have inverts so what's left is to take all fish to Q tanks and treat them for 6 weeks in hyposalinity. i believe you'll only get ich again after you introduce it with a new fish which you won't quarantine.
Also if you decide to tear up the tank you should take all the fish to Q tanks and do hypo for them because they were subjected to the disease if you don't do that while reintroduction of the MI it will be stressed of course and will be an easy target to ich.
Take terry's advice he's been a great help to me before he might sound too sure of himself but believe me he knows what he's doing so do Bill and Frank on the diseases forum so why don't you ask their advice?
There sure is more than one way that can work but once again why not do the most reliable and tested methods which have become a routine especially for rare fish?

[BradJohnson]

Reefmaniac I wish you the best of luck but if it doesn't get better fast or if you see it getting worse, I think your best bet is quarantining it asap (not plumbed to the system) and treating with copper.

[dendronepthya]

five bucks says RM'S cleaner wrasse turns up and lives a long happy life ...any takers????

alright maybe i should read his stock list first...quite a list too....bets off

Darn, that was going to be easy money...

[Reef Maniac]

Feb. 12th Update: 11:00 am est.

The number of spots on the MI are about the same, but they seem to be more concentrated on the fins now rather than the body . (just a few on the body 5-10)
She is eating the garlic soaked food very well. As are the other fish.
I lowered the SG from 1.023 to 1.021 I will lower it some more later on...
I placed PVC Tubes all over the tank to confuse the other fish (so they wont harass the MI. (seems to work very well)
I ordered a 36 watt CSL pc UV Sterilizer. It should be here by thu or fri. (what gph pump should I use on that?)

http://www.rmgconstruction.com/moorishidol.jpg

http://www.rmgconstruction.com/pvctank.jpg

[TerryB]

Naesco,
I have never considered feeding the fish garlic to be the best choice for treating ich. However, since it takes the completion of multiple life cycles before ich usually becomes fatal I have “submitted� to the idea that people are going to try the easy way rather than the best way. Garlic does seem to help in some cases, but I do not consider it to be a reliable cure. The number of people reporting failure with garlic is too high and from my own experiences I consider it to be more of a stop-gap than a real cure. Since most fish can withstand more than one life cycle of ich before it becomes life threatening it is OK (but not preferable) to try garlic with a light infection. Using garlic is really the only alternate treatment that I see any value in. With a MI we are talking a different matter.
Morish Idols appear to be extremely sensitive to stress, and ich causes stress. It is my opinion that this fish is one of the least resistant of species and most likely to succumb to infection and death. They also appear to be terribly prone to secondary bacterial infection and multi-focal depigmentation caused by a Cryptocaryon irritans infection. To put it plainly, you cannot afford to take a chance on “iffy: treatments. This includes but is not limited to UV lights, cleaner fish or shrimp, so-called reef safe treatments, garlic, etc. Hyposalinity does not appear to stress this fish and since any effective treatment requires that ALL EXPOSED FISH be removed for treatment from the reef it must be moved along with ALL OTHER EXPOSED FISH to another tank for treatment.
Hyposalinity is by far the best treatment and the least stressful (well maybe garlic is less stressful but I doubt it). Manipulating the salinity downward is a tool commonly used by fisheries to help saltwater fish recover from the stress of capture, transport and handling. BTW, please do NOT use a net on this fish. Chase it into a plastic container or bag. Try not to remove the fish from the water at all during transfer.
I sincerely hope that the owner of this fish keeps a quarantine tank cycled and running at all times. They could use a large rubbermaid garbage can as a quarantine, but if the tank is not cycled they are going to have to make large water changes every day. Just one more in the long list of reasons to have a quarantine tank. (they are not optional for the conscientious marine aquarist). BTW, I didn’t take your questions as challenging me or debating. I saw them as motivated by a genuine concern for a fellow aquarist and especially the animals. People sometimes question by approach because I believe it is important to be blunt and direct when advising another on a life or death issue for the animal. Sometimes you can’t dance around being afraid that you will step on someone’s toes. Personally, if it takes them not liking me in order to save the animal then so be it.
I guess it doesn't matter anyway because the MI owner is not listening to my warnings.
Terry B

[maroun.c]

BTW, please do NOT use a net on this fish. Chase it into a plastic container or bag. Try not to remove the fish from the water at all during transfer.

Terry I know the use of nets is not desired on the fish but is there anything specific for the MI to specifically not net it and not to take it out of the water while transport?

[TerryB]

Netting is a practice that commonly causes injury to the eyes, skin, scales and fins of all fish. I wish people would throw their nets out and use other ways to catch fish. Removing a fish from water causes them undue stress and effects the blood chemistry. These things are true of all fish and they are especially important when handling a delicate fish that does not tolerate stress well such as the Morish Idol.
Terry B

[Reef Maniac]

I don't want to get my hopes up, or speak prematurely, but I do believe she is getting better. Well actually, she never was acting sick, but yesterday I counted roughly 25-30 white spots on her. Today, I can only count 8-9 white spots. She is still eating the garlic soaked foods very well (what a pigfish!) :) Keep your fingers crossed for me guys!

I should recieve my UV Sterilizer tomorrow.

I haven't lowered the SG anymore of the fear of hurting my sps's. It is currently at 1.020

[TerryB]

Reef maniac,
I wish you well but I should tell you that the spots on the fish would have fallen off if you did absolutley nothing. You see this is all part of the natural life cycle of the parasite. It must fall off the fish before it can reproduce. This means it may be back worse than ever in a few days. I hope this doesn't happen but I have seen it a hundred times.
Good luck,
Terry B

[Reef Maniac]

Well thats good news. NOT! :(
Will the UV help?

[BrianD]

I am way out of my league here, but I would think the fish would have to pass through the UV before it would affect the parasites on the moorish idol, and all that would get you was baked idol.

Wouldn't the UV only help (somewhat) in keeping the parasites from spreading? I don't know how it would help a currently infected fish.

But, again, I am out of my league :)

Brian

[naesco]

Sorry Brian D
As the tank water passes through the UV, the swimming stage of the parasite is killed.
The problem is good stuff is also killed and that is why reefers do not recommend UV. In the situation you have here where you want to kill ich IMO it is OK for a period of time.
TerriB is correct. After a few days the ich on the fish fall off. That is why you must continue the garlic treatment. What we are looking for here is an improvement. If after five days the ich does not return, worse than ever, we have made progress and the treatment continues.
If the ich returns worse than ever as TerriB suggests, you must decide what next course of action you will take.
We are all hopefully that taking apart your tank will not be necessary to do the chemical or low salinity ordeal.
Good Luck and keep us advised of the progress and keep feeding lots.
Brian D is it possible to put this tread back in the main forum as the options for ich are well presented, there are over 700 hits and reefers will be made aware of the options whether they have ich at this time or not.
I emailed Billsreef requesting this but did not receive a reply.
Thank you

[TerryB]

Reef Maniac,
Now you want to know if I think a UV will help! You haven't taken my advice so far. I already asked if you read the long thread called "Hyposalinity...I am Scared." You did not answer me.
Terry B

[Reef Maniac]

TerryB: Yes I did read the entire thread, and it sounds very promissing, which will probably be the road I take if the garlic and UV don't work. I am really trying to avoid taking the entire reef apart (over 60 corals 200+lbs live rock) Since I caught it early. And I'm trying to learn.

P.S. Sorry I didn't answer you. I did read the thread.

[Bomber]

I ordered a 36 watt CSL pc UV Sterilizer. It should be here by thu or fri. (what gph pump should I use on that?)

Call the manf of the UV directly and ask them for the recommended flow rate to kill parasites (not algae or bacteria, the flow rate for parasites will be much less). Take any clean one gal container and time how long it takes to fill, from that you can adjust your flow rate from the pump with a ball valve. Do not exceed the flow rate or you'll just be giving them a tan.
You'll have the best results if you can turn your tank volume over 4-5 times per hour. For you that would be a flow rate (again to kill parasites) of aprox 600gph+

[naesco]

TerriB
How do you feel about advising Reef Maniac to increase the temperature.
I understand that warmer temperatures increase the speed with which the ich multiplies.
If the garlic will work with UV the 'final cycle' will be over quicker?
Any comments.
What in your opinion is the lowest salinity level possible in the main tank without affecting corals or inverts.
Have any studies been done on the short or long term effects of hysalinity on fish especially on delicate fish like the MI? The reason I ask as in reading a few threads fish blindness and other serious eye realted problems were evident. These conditions may have preexisted or related to a non-ich problem.
Thank you

[BrianD]

Hi Naesco

I moved it here because Terry requested it, and now you want me to move it back :)

As for the UV, like I said I am out of my league. I have never lost a fish to disease, so luckily I haven't had to research this stuff too much :D

I am curious, though. I understand the UV kills the parasite in the free swimming stage. If the free swimming parasites have already gotten to the fish, wouldn't it be too late for the UV to help that fish?

Again, believe me when I say I am not arguing the point, just trying to understand.

BTW, I would be glad to move the thread if those involved in it would like me to.

Brian

[Reef Maniac]

You guys are getting me worried. Do you think I am trying to delay the inevitable? Has this been done before?

Naesco: You had ich before right? And treated it with garlic?

BrianD: You have a good point there. I wish I could keep a cleaner wrasse in there! That would take the spots off the fish.
As far as moving this thread, I did recieve alot more different advice, from alot more people. Which gave me more options and opinions, so I'm for moving it back as well. (and maybe it will show more people to "leave well enough alone".) I am sure learning a valuble lesson here.

[naesco]

Yes, Reef Maniac, I have successfully treated tangs using the garlic extract method. I have also read many threads of reefers who have been successful. If your ich (have you confirmed it) was advanced I would recommend you to go another route.
I have not treated a MI, although IMO, gut only, a MI which is very fragile will have a better chance of making it with a garlic food additive as opposed to chemical treatment or severe salinity reduction. You will have to make that choice if your tank ich problem increases.

BrianD As I understand it, when one of reef maniacs, ich matures and falls off to produces young, mama and her babies will get zapped as they go through the UV. Whether UV kills all the ich I do not know but it will kill enough of them to keep the ich under control and give time to the fish time to get healthy.

Brian this thread is excellent for the main board because it is an excellent discussion of the ich options.
Good for reefers who do not presently have a problem and have no reason to go to the sick fish forum, but will now if they get a problem in the future. Obviously, I would like to see you and Bills reef contibute your expertise.

TerryB is well known in supporting the salinity treatment which no doubt will work but requires taking a tank apart. TerryB also supports the garlic method where there is a mild infection. If the garlic is not successful, I would encourage and have encouraged ReefManiac to choose another option. By the weekend we will know.

Understandably reef maniac is looking for as much personal experience a possible and it got over 700 hits there and has kind of died here. I understand Reefmaniac would like to see it there as well but you are the BOSS.
Thank you:)

[BrianD]

OK, I will move the thread back.

Call it the yo-yo thread :)

Brian

[maroun.c]

After all ain't ich a disease and doesn't it belong to the disease forum can't we take it back here (I mean the disease forum) one more time??? Keep it wherever you want this is a good thread and we'll follow it no matter where it goes.
Terry thanks for the info about netting the fish.
Reefmaniac glad to see you have some improvement, and hope the MI will be used to your tank so not stressed by the move any more so that it can deal on it's own with the ich when it comes back that is if it does.
Can you give us an update on what you are feeding and how much garlic and how many times you are now feeding.

[Reef Maniac]

There are no more spots on the MI at all!
I just hooked up the UV sterilizer. (it was recommended to use a 950gph pump. I think thats a bit much for parasites, so I put a 400gph pump on it. Should be ok, right?
The tank itself is fair (a few LPS's are shribbled) Could be the lower SG...
I have been feeding 4-5 times daily with brine, mysis, flake, and nori. Soaked in about a teaspoon of Garlic Extract for about 3 hours.

[naesco]

If no spots are evident on the MI and on any other fish it appears that we are heading the right direction but it is not over yet. Continue the garlic feeding.
Would you please summarize the following.
Date MI put in your tank?
Date ich first noticed?
Date garlic EXTRACT first fed?

TerriB
If ich is present in the water but cannot or does not attach to the fish, how long can it live?
If a few ich are present in the water, can fish 'deal with it' or is it certain that they will multiply and come back visibly again?
Would you recommend slowly increasing the salinity to his normal level at this time? When?

Thanks

[slojmn]

Just remember the life cycle of ICH, it drops off the fish and reproduces in the tank then the new little suckers go out to find a host. During this time your fish may look like the ICH is completely gone. I hope all is well. I really hope your Idol is going to be okay, just prepare yourself in case it pops back up in the next 24-48 hours. I fought ICH in my 120g reef for 6 weeks before I finally gave up and went the hyposalinity route. The fish with the ICH would look ICH free from time to time only to show up with it the next day worse. I tried garlic as well. No luck, but I do think the garlic helped in that no fish died from the ICH in all those 6 weeks, but they would have if I had not gone the hypo route.
Again good luck and I don't mean to rain on your parade just want you to be prepared that it might not be gone.

[naesco]

slojmn
You are absolutely right.
Do you know the answers I asked in my previous post?
How long does the little suckers live if they do not or cannot attach to a fish?

[Reef Maniac]

slojm: I realize it is not gone. But since it is not on the fish, and in the water. Wont the UV get the rest? And yes, I am preparing for the worst.

Naesco: I don't have specific dates, but I can say I bought the fish about 10 days ago, I noticed the ich about 4 days later. I started garlic soaked foods the next day.

Where's TerryB?

Wondering, What if I did nothing at all to aid the ich parasite? Would all my fish eventually die? And my corals? (total system crash?) Just trying to understand this diesiese a little better. Is ich that dangerous?

[cal3v]

Ich only affects fish. All inverts, including corals, shrimp, crabs, starfish, etc. are immune to catching it. While a UV filter will kill the ich, it will also kill anything else suspended in water, such as micro plankton, algae, etc, whatever passes through the filter. IF you feed your fish the garlic food as a preventitiv, I believe in six months or something all ich will ahve died naturally because of no host.

[naesco]

1. 10 days ago reef maniac placed a ich infected Moorish Idol in his main tank.

2. Four days later upon noticing the ich reef maniac started a garlic extract (not juice or oil) treatment.

3. Seven days later reef maniac confirmed no visible ich on fish.

CONCLUSION TO DATE (10 DAYS)

"The garlic extract treatment slows or stops the ich infestation and allows the reefer the time necessary to prepare for chemical and other ich treaments"

I understand that reefmaniac is DEFINITELY not out of the woods yet, but is the above conclusion a fair comment to date? If so, that is of importance to reefers because it give us time to prepare, and the fish some breathing room.

Please let us know your comments. Thank you

[maroun.c]

Naesco, while you could be totally right, I just have 2 comments:
-After taking my tang alone for treatments to my Q tank each time I got him back he always got ich again which shows that the ich was always still in the tank even if not showing on the fish however the amount of time was 10-30 days each time.
- Finally when i decided it was time for my tang to make it on its own I always kept him in the display. He started to have some spots one day which decreased or even disappeared the other day. I always fed garlic when i saw spots for 5 days then once per week for prevention. My tang ended by having a very severe rash I rushed him to the Q tank to start Hypoposalinity with all other fish some in the display and some in the Q tank however my tang lost his vision before i could go down with the salinity most probably due to secondary infection. I don't want to put any one's hopes down here but IMO and IME i would say taken the fact that no more spots are visible reefmaniac should continue to feed garlic however at the first sign of spots i think it would really be time for hyposalinity for all his fish.
This is only my opinion and hope he won't be needing it in the future. However it htink it would be really good for reef maniac to prepare a Q tank, not necessarily for this fish, however it'll be important to quarantine his new additions from now on before adding them to the tank for 2 reasons:
-New fish might bring new diseases and his tank now contains a MI so he should avoid all errors.
-New fish will be stressed and would be easy targets to ich if it still exists in his tank which could could initiate an outbreak.
Hoping the MI has made it and good luck with this fabulous fish.
Maroun

[Reef Maniac]

If I took all the fish out. and put them in a q-tank, and treated them all with hyposalinity. I would have to first;
Take all my corals out (60) and Live rock (200lbs) to catch the fish.
Set up a HUGE Q-tank. Whats good.... hmmm 18 fish, 125 gal?
Run Massive filtration.
Put all my live rock and corals back in display (probably lose a few)
And then wait for how long? 1,2,3 months, til the ich dies... Then return fish to tank?

There has got to be an easier way!!!

How about Just letting the ich kill the fish and then get new ones? j/k

C'mon guys what else can I do?

[asmujica]

I am new at this, and the guy at the lfs recomended melafix

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
Tropical Fish Medications...
MelaFixâ„¢

TO get rid of itch from a fish I have, it has dissapeared completely and if that didn't work I was going to add greenex. As I hear it, the melafix is reef safe. Maybe that can help a bit.....

HOpe your fish gets better, your tank is awesome!

[naesco]

IMO Greenex is the best bet to treat an serious ich infestation on fish. Treat in your QT (no carbon filtration). Much better than any form of copper IMO. But I would not consider it for the main tank with coral and inverts.
If you choose to use the Greenex chemical method, follow the directions, keep the lights off on the days you are using it and in addition place an air diffuser in the QT to keep the tank oxygenated.

[asmujica]

But the melafix helps to cure the wounds that where left by the parasites that where on the fish right?

[naesco]

I am sorry I have never used Melafix so I cannot comment. However, I would not consider putting any chemical treatment in a tank with coral and inverts.

[cal3v]

Yo reefmaniac, just leave the fish be. If they don't get stressed by anything, they should not catch it again before the 6 months is up. If you are worried about it recurring, get a pair of cleaner shrimp. These will take care of any ich on the tangs or other fish. So basically, just let everything run it's course now. No hyposalinity, you will have to take all inverts and lr out or they will die, it's more trouble than it's worth now that your fish are pest free appearance wise. Oh, just so you don't forget, for the thir time, let it be.

[31-2c]

Just stick with feeding Garlic juice every day.

Nobody likes to lose a fish, but losing 1 MI is better than losing several things due to major stress in the tank trying to remove stuff.

If it isnt a major infestation, the Garlic will work wonders.

David

(I'm sure glad everyone is spending there time arguing over who knows more. Everyone wants to be an expert.)

In my opinion -- Don't add any chemicals in your tank.
Don't change your water.
Don't stress everything more by removing stuff
Don't stress everything more by adding PVC.


Your MI will recover nicely on Garlic treatment. You caught it early. It sounds like he is eating like a pig, so this isn't bothering him too much.

Keep up the garlic, and quit worrying so much.

Spending a ton of money on extra equipment, or dealing with a ton of stress trying to quaritine will only leave you with more sick fish, and extra useless equipment taking up too much room.

I am not claiming to be an expert. This is just common sense.

[asmujica]

How is the MI doing?

[Reef Maniac]

All the fish are doing well right now. The spots have not come back. I'm continuing the garlic, and UV. My sailfin is still in my QT. She is doing fine in there, but it is small (10gal). I would like to return her back in the main tank very soon. The reason I took her out was that she was picking on the MI.

[acrophoria]

hope everythings goin good,maybe you mihgt not want to itro your sailfin back as it may cause the mi to stress again,i would rather have a mi than a sailfin anyway.:)

[Reef Maniac]

OK, I will leave her in there for now, since she is diong ok. But The sailfin is a red sea, and she is my favorite!

I also just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for their concern, their advice, and their time! Thanks! I really appreciate it. I don't know what I would have done without you all! :)

[naesco]

TerriB
I was hoping you might answer my previous post a you are an expert on ich.
Considering that the ich is not presently visible on any fish, but may be in the tank water, how long will the swimming form of ich in the water survive if it cannot attach to a fish?
Is it correct to say that if ich cannot attach to a fish it WILL die.
This is important because it gives us some idea as to how long to continue the garlic treatment which so far is successful.
I have personally been successful but did not record how many days I treated the ich with garlic extract.
Any other experts out there who can assist us with the answer?

ReefManiac
Thank you for keeping us advised of your success.
Please continue to post often with the status and any observations and advice.
Hopefully we will have an answer to the 'length of treatment' soon.

[slojmn]

naesco, from what I read in my own research the ICH will stay at sub-clinical levels. This means it is there in the tank hosting on the fish with no physical sign to our own eyes, but the fish have it. They are not bothered by it until something comes along and stresses them out thus lowering their immune system, maybe a new addition, a heat spike, a change in water params, whatever. This is what happened to me, fish fine for over a year till the oxygen depletion nightmare one night and then BAM ICH everywhere. According to Terry B. The longest the ICH parasite lasted in scientific setting without a host was 72 days. I plan on leaving my reef fish free for 7-8 weeks. I had ICH one other time years ago and I remember using the Greenex stuff in my reef:( , thanks to lfs advice. I only lost one fish and the ICH has never returned to that tank(over 5 years), at least to my eye. It is probably there at sub-clinical levels, who knows though.

[naesco]

slojmn
Thank you for your advice.
I realize that there is no scientific evidence but am interested in your thoughts on this.
In reefmaniac's MI do you think the ich in subclinical form is still present on the fish? Obviously, in the water right?
If the tank (probably the MI addition stress) is now or soon to be stabilized, do you think the fish can contend with the ich? In other words if the stressor is removed be it water conditions, an aggressive fish or whatever, are the fish than able to contend with the ich and keep it subclinical?
The safest bet for reefmaniac would be to continue the garlic treatment for 72 days, correct? My recollection on my experience with ich on my tangs was that I only treated with garlic extract for about 30 days but maybe the tangs still have it at a subclinical level.
Last question:
I recall reading somewhere that one can speed up the ich cycle by increasing the temperatures a couple of degrees. If this is the case one might be able to reduce the 72 days waiting period. Any comments?
Thank you

[slojmn]

naesco, I also read that increased temp will speed up the life cycle of the ICH parasite, not sure what advantage this is in a reef tank. I think in a hyposalinity suituation you can get the ICH to drop off the fish sooner to do their reproductive gig with the higher temp, thus providing some relief to the fish. Once off the fish the ICH will die as it is unable to reproduce due to the low salinity of 1.009-1.010. That is how the ICH parasite dies off in a quarantine situation in Hyposalinity conditions. At least that is what I gleaned from the hours of reading about this darn pest.

It seems that the MI has been free of ICH to the naked eye for a while now, not sure of the timelines, but I would guess it is still in the system but the fish must be handling it. Not sure what will happen if ReefManiac re-introduces the tang. The MI is still alive, this is a good thing. The UV is probably getting some of the free floating parasites but not all. I would continue to do what he is doing until things turn bad. I waited 6 weeks with ICH never really leaving the fish. I could see it on one of the 3 fish that were infected at all times. Interestingly, the other 6 fish never showed signs of it. Things were turning ugly for me though. Two of the fish were starting to go downhill so I went with the drastic measure of setting up hyposalinity and tearing down my reef to get the last two fish out. Unfortuantely I lost the three fish who originally had the ICH to a nitrite and ammonia spike in quarantine even though I tried seeding it with sponges from different tanks that had bacteria build up. All the other fish are fine and are still in quarantine under hyposalinity. I wont know if this works until I return them to the main tank. It has been 3 weeks, I have another 4-5 weeks to go

[naesco]

As you pointed out you lost some fish in the hypo salinity transfer.
The MI is a very very delicate species and I don't see it surviving all of that.
If the Moorish Idol stops eating its dead.
I think reef maniac should continue with the garlic treatment for the 72 day period so as not to risk a reinfection by stopping too early. Have you read about an adverse effects of feeding a fish garlic for that length of time?
On the other hand, if ich resurfaces with a vengence, as TerryB has advised, reef maniac should go through the whole taking the tank apart hypo salinity regimen. At least the garlic bought him time to prepare for that setup.
Lets all hope it isn't needed, eh.

[slojmn]

I agree, let's hope it isn't needed. The fish that died did so due to the ammonia/nitrite problem inthe quarantine. Clearly I was at fault and have learned a great deal about ICH and quarantine set ups. if one sets up the quarantine tank and lets it cycle or only adds a few fish with a sponge that has been in the main tank for at least 2 weeks the problems I had would not occur. I stuck 8 fish into the 30g quarantine and then fed to heavy, this caused the spike. Prior to the spike all fish were doing really well in the quarantine. I did not find it difficult for the fish at all. They established their hiding spots and were eating within hours of the change. The other quarantine with a few fish in it has done just fine. He may want to set up the quarantine and get it all ready just in case. If you use the water from the tank there won't be any shock of a change for the fish. As you said though, let's hope he does not need it as the MI is such a delicate fish. I wish Reef Maniac all the luck in the world.
One other thing, I will quarantine all new fish before they go into my main reef, thus lowering my chances of introducing a parasite to the main tank. I know it is not bullet proof but it will afford me less chances of something funky coming in to the tank.

[naesco]

slowjmn
Your mistake is the same mistake everyone makes. Faced with ich we panic and throw all our fish into a small QT tank which we have just set up. It seems we always notice the ich at around 11pm, right?
At the very minimum, at this point, it is shown that if we all keep a bottle of garlic extract (not oil or juice) in our refridgerator, it will buy us the time necessary to set up a proper QT and avoid problems like missing equipment (heater), brand new water, off temperatures etc.
But for the fact that we are dealing with a Moorish Idol, I would have confidence that the garlic will assist the fish to fight the ich. We are very much in a waiting game here but everything is going in the right direction to date.
If Reef Maniac can keep that Moorish Idol alive for 72 days, he will sure have accomplished something. Wouldn't it be neat if we stumbled across the missing food necessary to keep Morrish Idol successfully in our tanks; Garlic Extract:) :) :)

[TerryB]

Naesco,
The free swimming stage only survives about 24 hours if it doesn’t find a host. Actually, after 12 hours the chances that the free swimming stage will successfully attach to a host reduce rapidly. However, its not the free swimming infective stage that you should be worried about. The tomont stage remains attached to the rock, glass, etc., for several days to weeks. The life cycle is normally completed in under two weeks but there are several variables. To make a long story short, it is normal for the spots to disappear only to reappear several days (or longer) later. I recommend continuing the garlic treatment for 30 days minimum if that is the route that you continue to follow. As far as Reef maniac having continued success that is premature. Its nice that the spots are gone right now but that proves nothing. As I said before the spots would have disappeared if he did NOTHING. Now it is a waiting game to see of the spots come back. Until they have been gone for more than a week I wouldn’t start to breathe any easier.
Terry B

[TerryB]

naesco

You are drawing some false conclusions here. First, slojmn did not say he had fish die from hyposalinity treatment. What he did say is that they died from ammonia /nitrite poisoning. Secondly, you are assuming that garlic is somehow buying time. I don’t see where you are getting that. Garlic will either control the infection or it will not. I am hoping like everyone else that the garlic works but I am hesitant to trust it because it is not consistent enough. The third thing that I believe you are jumping to conclusions on is you seem to think that hyposalinity is stressful, what do you base that on?
It sure would be a lot simpler if people just kept a cycled quarantine running and used it on all new fish BEFORE putting them in the display. This entire mess could have easily been avoided.
Terry B

[naesco]

Thank you for answering the questions.
Maybe I should clarify somethings.
1. I have never used the hyposalinity method.
2. Hyposalinity did not kill slojmn's fish, nitrites did when the QT was set up for her hysalinity treatment.
3. IMO, the reality is that most reefers do not have a QT ready and waiting. Terry in the past if I did nothing with ich when first noticed on one fish, within days that fish and others were covered with ich. Since using garlic the ich went in the other direction. The fish cleared itself of ich and others did not 'catch' it.
Thus, garlic IMO buys the time necessary to properly set up a QT etcetera.
4. I have never kept nor will I keep Moorish Idols because they are almost impossible to keep. IMO the stress of the transfer to Reef Maniac's tank brought on ick. IMO the additional transfer to a small QT with all of the other fish together with the reduction of salinity will be very stressful to the Moorish Idol.
5. Based on your recommendation, I think that the best course of action is for Reef Maniac to continue the present treatment with garlic until there are indications to the contrary. Do you agreee?
Thank you

[TerryB]

Naesco,
You are drawing a false conclusion about garlic buying time because ich is not transmitted from fish to fish. It is transmitted from tomonts that hatch in the tank and not directly from one fish to another so other fish not having spots really has nothing to do with it.
No amount of stress can cause ich unless the parasite is present in the system. Stress does not cause ich it only makes fish more susceptible. Perfectly healthy and unstressed fish can get ich. Hyposalinity is not stressful unless of course you do not take the time to acclimate the fish to the change.
I have a problem placing convenience over the life of an animal. The most effective treatment would be to have been to treat all the fish in quarantine. A simple plastic garbage can works well. They certainly don’t need a 125-gallon tank for quarantine. I believe the most effective treatment should always be used and that convenience to the hobbyist is a low priority. I have had to catch all of the fish out of a reef and move them for treatment myself. Yes, it is a pain but it is the hobbyist’s own fault if they don’t quarantine first. The problem with giving garlic a chance first is that Moorish Idols die more quickly from ich than other fish. If the garlic doesn’t work (keeping my fingers crossed) the parasite will be back worse than ever. By the time we see if the garlic is going to work in this case it will probably be too late for using hyposalinity. I just hope that the spots don’t come back multiplied in a few days because if it does the MI may be dead quickly. I don’t see this as a situation that you can always fall back on hyposalinity if the garlic doesn’t do the trick.. Besides all that, if you use garlic you may not get rid of the pest meaning it will raise its ugly head again in a few weeks or months. This is true even if the Moorish Idol seems to be cured. Now that the he has gone this far with the garlic treatment I will just hope for the best. Garlic does seem to work sometimes, I will just hope this is one of those times.
Terry B

[slojmn]

Hey guys, no "he" here. I'm a "she":D :D :D :D

Good discussion going here. I think this is an important issue for others to follow and learn from. I for one will not add any fish to my system without quarantine first. But what about inverts, corals, and live rock. How do you quarantine these items? They can also bring in ICH.

[asmujica]

Would the 48 hour cycle be good enought to start a quarantine tank in emergencies?

[rtebb]

RM...Is this the tank that you have the MI in?

http://www.rmgconstruction.com/reef.htm

[Reef Maniac]

Rtebb: Yes it is, Why do you ask?

[rtebb]

It's beautiful! I hope that you can keep everything under control with the UV...

Things still going good? :thumbsup:

rt

[naesco]

Terry
why would trying to see if the garlic extract treatment is successful in treating the tank with the Moorish Idol in it, in any affect a subsequent attempt to treat it in a QT or garbage pail?
If the ich returns, the reefer now has a fully functioning QT which he can now use to treat with either the hyposalinity or chemical method.
By' buying time' I mean the garlic extract keeps the ich 'in check' until the reefer has a chance to gather the equipment necessary and set up a proper QT.
Please comment. Thank you

Asmusica, I do not understand your question. Please give us a few details?

Rtebb, now you see why it would be really tough to tear the tank apart to remove the fish for the QT. I understand ReefManiac trying the garlic method, right!

Reef Maniac, how come I am asking all the questions?

Thank you

[asmujica]

Ok, Lets suppose that you have a 20 galon aquarium lying in the closet and all of the sudden you have a sick fish. The 48 hour safe cycle from tropical science would be enough to emergency cycle the tank so you can put the sick fish in there?

Of course, you would also place a heater and stuff..

[TerryB]

Hi Naesco

The reason that postponing hypo salinity may be detrimental to the fish is that upon completion of the next cycle of ich there may be a tenfold increase in the number of parasites. This makes treatment more difficult and the likelihood of survival is greatly diminished. Like I said before, Moorish Idols don’t handle ich well. A significant increase in the number of infective parasites could easily “do the fish in� before hypo salinity can help. Each wound caused by the parasite is easily invaded by secondary bacterial infection complicating matters further. I feel that it is the responsibility of each aquarist to quarantine their animals and to use the best possible treatment if their fish do become ill. I am not against using garlic as an aid, but I have certainly seen it fail a number of times as a treatment for ich. On the other hand, hyposalinity absolutely works (of course there is always the possibility that someone may treat for ich after misdiagnosing the problem). I understand that a lot of people do feel that garlic has helped them with a light infection which is great. This is not an ideal situation since there wasn’t a quarantine tank cycled and running so it makes things much more difficult. There is no doubt that garlic is the easier way. However, like other things in life, the easy way is rarely the best way. I can’t really venture a guess as to the likelihood that garlic will work in this case, but I am thinking its 50/50. Compare that to a success rate in the high 90 percentile with hyposalinity and you will begin to understand my concern.
Terry B

[naesco]

Terry B
Thank you for your informative answer.
All things being equal it would be better to go with the methodology which has the highest possibility of success.
My concern is with the Moorish Idol. If we took all the fish out and placed it in a reasonably large QT, I would think that it would have a tough time making it through the transfer and high fish density let alone the hyposalinity. (is there some stress involved with it?)
I checked the previous posts. Ich was first seen on the fish 7 days ago and garlic treatment commenced 6 days ago. So, we are past the free swimming stage.
Is there anything he could do to minimize the trophant stage. I was thinking of cleaning the glass and mildly stirring the top of the sand to free up some of them which hopefully might make their way into the inlet of his UV.
Or should he keep his hands out of the tank?

[TerryB]

I would keep my hands out of the tank and be preparred with another plan in case the garlic doesn't control the infection. BTW, reducing the salinity is commonly used by fisheries to help relieve the stress of transport, handling and capture. I understand a great deal about all aspects of stress in fish. The greatest stressor that this fish is facing is the pathogen itself. You can also reduce the stress of tranfer greatly by not using a net and not removing the fish from water during the move.
Terry B

[31-2c]

I am absolutely disgusted that anyone would recommend tearing down this tank and chasing that poor MI around to put him in a QT tank!!

Ich will always be present in EVERY tank.

I know someone who had a set up for 3 years. He had not done anything with it for 2 years. No additions or anything. Perfect water quality.

One day his heater broke in his sump. Caused major stress in tank. Low and behold, ICH. Never had ich before!

Tearing this tank apart to chase down the MI would only endanger every fish in the tank.

Just leave this poor fish alone. Keep up with the Garlic Feeding.


It is people like some of you that make others believe this hobby is too difficult to start.

REEFMANIAC: I praise you in trying to save this wonderful fish. To take a chance on a fish you knew was extremely difficult to keep shows just how much you care about this hobby. Keep up the good work, and good luck!

David

[TerryB]

Well David,
If you are "absolutely disgusted" by anyone that would suggest using standard protocol maybe you need to do a little research and increase your knowledge of fish disease, treatments and stress. Your statement that “ Ich will always be present in EVERY tank.� has been proven wrong in scientific trials. This is common knowledge at fisheries. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t change a thing. "It is people like some of you that make others believe this hobby is too difficult" by spouting fallacies in a matter of life or death. This is what leads to the death of many animals not sound advice in the area of fish disease, treatment and general fish health management. If you want to take a shot at me maybe you should check to see if you even have a small percentage of the knowledge that I have on the subject first.
Terry B

Reefmaniac,
We all wish you and your fish the best. Although taking a fish that should be kept in the ocean from a retailer (if that is what you did) only encourages them to purchase more of them, your intensions are not in question. I think we all understand what you are trying to do. The debate here is not about you. The debate isn’t really about whether garlic is a good treatment or not. To me it is about playing the percentages. Garlic may work for you and all this will turn out fine. I just felt another way had a higher likelihood of success. The last thing I want to see happen is for the ich to come back and overwhelm the fish. Its way too early to know how this will turn out but if I can help then I will.
Best wishes,
Terry B

[maroun.c]

Just have a few comments about the previous few posts:
- i don't think quaratining is stressful if you have a cycled Q tank with some hiding places. also i would rather stress the fish with 2 transfers in 6 weeks period (from lfs to Q tank then from Q tank to display tank) then doing a potential 3 transfers with all additional stress (lfs to display then tearing down the tank and stressing the new fish- then to Q tank then if the fish makes it to the display ). if you add to that the stress you put on your existing fish and the risk of disease a new fish may bring. Mind you those are old fish which had made it through the toughest part (transfer, introduction and acclimatation)
- I believe that the only thing that gives you time for the Q tank to cycle (although i believe the Q tank should always be ready and cycled for your fish don't give you advanced notice when they want to get sick) is the hyposalinity by itself:
By doing hyposalinity you are changing around 55-60% of the tanks water over a period of 2-3 days i would go a bit slower with going down till like 4-5 days and this will lessen the spikes and give the tank 4-5 days more to cycle. 5 days could not be enough but that is really all you get. I believe that if ich is severe enough to kill the fish garlic won't give you 5 days.
Also i would even do a freshwater dip(however that is too stressing to the fish) to relieve it bit if i see it won't last for 5 days. Also for faster treatment you could try copper which will give effects in 2-3 days then do major water changes to get it out then do hyposalinity.
One more thing my MI and all the ones i've seen in tanks never took a hide out and swam most of the day in open water in the tank so they are frightened by each movement in the room... that's an additional reason for them to be fragile.
All of the above is only IMO any corrections are welcome (that's not the case for any flame).
This is a very informative thread hope many person learn a lot of it and let's hope it will have a happy ending.
Maroun

[31-2c]

SOUND ADVICE?!?!

You think telling someone to tear apart a healthy and happy tank is sound advice?

What are you going to suggest next? Maybe he should just stick the fish with a sharp knife? That would take care of the problem too!

Maybe he should completely shut down the tank, shut off all the circulation, and let the tank drop to about 40 degrees. That would take care of it too!

I have never heard anything so ridiculous!



"fish don't give you advanced notice when they want to get sick"

EXACTLY! Even if he had put this fish in QT for 3 months, there would still be the chance that it would get ich in the main display tank anyways!

David:mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

[slojmn]

Tearing apart a healthy and happy reef is one thing but tearing apart an ICH infested and healthy? reef is another thing. I was able to easily net most of my fish. I ended up having to take apart the reef for the last two fish, It was stressful to then net them and place thm in quarantine, but that stress seemed to be relieved in only a few hours when they returned to their normal habits. The whole process of tearing apart and re-building my reef took 3 hours for two people, not a huge deal but somewhat of a bummer. Both fish adjusted as well as can be expected. My mandarin has been sulking for the most part but he is scooting around the quarantine tank. I know quarantine for a mandarin is not great anyways but my guy should be fine and he will be happy when he returns to his home.
31-2c, it seems like you have something personal here, pretty intense flame throwing going on. I don't recall anyone suggesting shutting down the system or letting the temp drop. It seems that if Reef Maniac is able to treat the fish with garlic and all goes well then so be it. I believe the advice was that the sure fire way of getting rid of the ICH would be to quarantine all fish for the recommended period under hyposalinity. Reef Maniac is going to decide what to do as his MI dictates. If the ICH gets really bad the quarantine may be the only hope to save the fish and any others that may get infected. I tried the garlic route for 6 weeks, no luck, the ICH just got worse so I had to make the decision to go the quarantine route. So be it, this is a very informational thread and many things can be learned from threads like this. If you have a differing opinion then suggest it in a mature matter. Heck, take on the other suggestions if need be, just do so in a mature manner then we can all learn. Flame throwing just gets nasty and turns people off from the board. Just my 2 cents, not worth much... I know:)

[Ironreef]

Same here. I did the garlic thing for a few weeks it went away came back and my fish died. But i belive the addition on another tang= 2 tangs they both fought both got ick= stress? the one died after it came back. The other tang recovered and has no signs of ick.= garlic didn't work wish I would have got my tang out an either traded it ,and at least saved it with hypo or even garlic in the qtank. I've never loss a fish before to ick. My first ever. I've keept fish since the late 80's . Never lost them then with midevil tecnics but they were damsels

[TerryB]

David,
You make catching the fish out to be much more stressful to the fish and inverts than is realistic. The live rock and inverts go right back into the tank as soon as the fish are caught. Nobody said to tear down the tank, only to very temporarily remove as much live rock and inverts as necessary to catch the fish. The live rock and inverts go right back into the tank. The LR and inverts made it though capture and transport, this is only a small fraction as much stress. Yes, it is a lot of trouble and it will probably take a couple of hours. That is the sort of mess that you get for failure to quarantine. I have done this to my own reef twice over the years and I did not loose a single invert or fish. It was 100% successful and everything survived and was healthy. I have also helped several other people go through the process. You are the only one that is being ridiculous and saying things that nobody suggested. Quarantine eliminates the vast majority of instances with ich in the display. A great majority of people would never have ich in their display if they just quarantined all their fish BEFORE they go in the display.
If you think my advice is ridiculous then you should tell some aquatic medicine specialist and straighten them out? How about I put you in touch with the leading aquatic medicine specialist in the US? I know him and I am sure he would appreciate your straightening him out. They must be teaching it all wrong. Just how many scientific journals have you read about Cryptocaryon irritans and stress in fish?
Terry B

[seacrazy]

Let me just throw something out there to think about on the contraversy about garlic. I've just finshed reading some scientific studies on why garlic helps with ich. I've been recently fighting my first case of Ich as well. Garlic has been working for me. Maybe why garlic sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, is for the same reason why treatments for canser sometimes work and sometimes don't. No fish is exacly the same just as no human is exaclty the same. For that reason, treatments may work on some fish and not on others. Just because kimotherapy doesent cure every canser patient dosn't mean that it shouln't be used, or that it's not reliable. Just because garlic doesn't work on every fish doesn't mean is not a sussesful treatment. Alot of the cures for diseases that we have were found along time ago. At that time we really didn't have the scientific knowledge or knowhow to prove why they worked. They were proven sussesful by trial and error, and then relied on by trust. This is where we are at in the marine enviroment. We know very little about what makes the oceans work the way they do. The oceans are still new to us so for a while we will have to step back in time and resort to trial and error rather than relying on what the computer models are telling us. Alot of the oceans and disease treatments my never be scientificly explained. That's hard to digest for us because as humans we like to know exacly why things happen. People try to get a scientific theory on things to ease there mind even if the theory may not be correct. Everything on this Earth was not ment to be explained and alot of things never will be. Just look at how the World started, there is probably a 1000 theorys out there on how it happened when all you have to do is open the good book and and read, and you know what happened. But, people can't fathem that because people have a start and a finish, so they think everything has to have one. If everything could be figured out my man than God wouldn't be a very Great God would he? Most of the diseases we have found cures for are diseases man has created. That's why we have a hard time finding exact cures for for marine fish, because these diseases are natural diseases that have been around since before humans were made. What I say is you have to find what works for you. Once you find it, stick with it. Personally, the garlic has worked well for me. Throught the reading I've done on this site and others it seems to me that about 80% of people who have used Garlic say that if it did not totally cure there ich problem, it atleast helped substansually. There's about 20% of people that say it doesn't work, or didn't work for them. Out of that 20%, about have of those have never used it , but since it hasn't been scientifically proven reliable, won't use it and discurage others from using it as well.:idea: :idea:

[maroun.c]

Seacrazy while you are totally right in every word you said just try to get what we pointed at: garlic have prooved many times to be effective i agree. However garlic still has a lot to prove before being accepted as a routine(min and max dose, how many feedings per day, long term effects on a reef...) guess everybody agrees.
I reasonnably think that we can do these trials at least as a start on hardier fish and frankly not on a MI which is very delicate. and that really is the point.


31-2c: why don't we keep a minimum of respect and reason at this, i'll just ask you a few questions to which i would appreciate if you could give me some direct answers:
do you or don't you agree on the followings:
Quarantining is a necessity for new additions.
Quarantining is sometimes a necessity for established fish showing some signs of disease?
If you disagree on theses issues i'll understand your reaction, however if you agree on that and with a little elaboration you'll come to believe that what was suggested was at least worth considering and reefmaniac would have at least benefitted from the advice of preparing a Q tank which he might need in a few days or if he's lucky and i really hope it when he'll be adding some new fish.
Do you really think that all people that had to tear up their tanks to save the rest of the fish were doing big mistakes. no body is telling reefmaniac to tear his tank up especially after the spots have disappeared from fish. however if he had done that he would have known in 6 weeks that his tank is ich free now he'll be worried for about 3-4 months wether ich is still there or not.
As to your reply on fish not giving prior notice to getting sick well there are many reasons that could necessitate quarantining other than ich. You could wake up tomorrow and find that one of your fish have bumped it's eye in a rock and that it's getting infected wouldn't you thank god that your Q tank is runing and simply catch that fish which is half blind so no need to tear the tank up and take it to the Q tank and have it healed in 3-4 days with antibiotics?
you could say this is merely imagination but it has previously hapened to me.
As to the additional costs of a Q tank well believe me it won't cost more than 60 USD which all of us refers agree that it's a small price compared to all the money we throw in our tanks.
Maroun.

[Reef Maniac]

WOW, I apologize greatly. I did not know this thread was still going, I got no e-mail notification. Sorry. I was actually getting worried that everyone gave up on me.

The MI is doing fine still, a few specs at night, (about 5-6) and morning he's clean. I think my cleaner shrimps are responsible for that.
My purple tang is about the same.
Other fish, no apparent infestation.
My Naso Tang now has it the worst. (about 30-40 spots).

MouronC: You say a Q-tank is about $60.00 to set up? What does a q-tank consist of?

I'm continuing garlic treatment, (feeding 3-4 times a day) and I'm going to hook up another UV sterilizer (that I'm borrowing)

I am not going to tear down my tank! If you saw it in person, you would understand why. I think I can trap the fish if I decide to quarantine.

[31-2c]

Maroun

No I do not believe in putting fish into QT for any reason.

The main thing everyone is trying to accomplish in an aquarium is to make it as natural as possible. This is why the use of Live Rock and Live Sand is so highly recommended. A person can achieve good results using all types of mechanical filters, but it isn't recommended.

It is my personal opinion that putting a fish through all the added stress of moving it several times is cruel. If you have a good stable system, you should not need to worry about new additions. Just leave the fish alone and let it heal.

The idea of bagging up a fish from an LFS or MO company and putting it into QT for several weeks (long enough for it to get comfortable with its new surroundings) just to take it back out and move it into another environment is a perfect example of cruel and unusual punishment

David

[TerryB]

Reef Maniac,
Do I understand you correctly that the ich has now spread to a couple of other fish? If you have been treating with garlic for 10 days or more the spots should be disappearing if the treatment was working. The fact that new spots are appearing is proof enough that the parasite is continuing its life cycle unimpaired by the garlic treatment. It is normal for the most susceptible fish to show spots first (examples: Moorish Idol and Tangs). As the population of parasites continues to multiply the other fish in the tank will also become visibly infected. It usually takes more than one completed life cycle before there is mortality. I don’t mean to be discouraging but your update one the situation only serves to make me all the more concerned. You can set up an inexpensive quarantine by using a large plastic garbage can (big enough to treat ALL the fish), a heater, some PVC pipe and something to supply the biological filtration. I hope you have been seeding a biowheel or sponge filter (powered by an airpump) or two so you will have some biological filtration for your Qtank.
Good luck and keep us up to date,
Terry B

[Reef Maniac]

OK, Now there are no spots on the Naso, or any of the other fish.
It seems to come and go, I'm thinking my cleaner shrimps are helping out alot. As I said before, I am not going to tear down my tank and upset the stability of it, to remove all the fish (about 18) so I need advice on what other measures I can take while everything remains in the display tank. Thanks!

[TerryB]

Reef Maniac,
OK, so if I understand your motivation correctly you are willing to sacrifice the fish if necessary in order to avoid the inconvenience of catching the fish and moving them to quarantine. I do not agree with your attitude, but I hope you will learn to quarantine and avoid situations like this in the future. Since you are not willing to use the most effective treatments all that is left is an assortment of hit and miss methods. None of these methods is consistently effective. However, I will still offer the best advice I can under the restrictions given.
Freshwater or formalin dips will rid the fish of a percentage of attached parasites. I am guessing that dips are out of the question since you will not be catching the fish. It seem obvious by now that the garlic is not working as well as we hoped. That leaves us pretty limited in choices and you should probably use some combination of treatments.
A UV light is limited in effectiveness and you need a powerful one with a slow flow rate. Cleaner fish and shrimp are also pretty limited. Garlic can help but I am not so sure it is going to in your case. You could add Kick Ich to the mix, but I am not sure how it will react with a UV light. Kick Ich can cause adverse reactions in some fish IME. Maybe you will get lucky by combining them all.
Terry B

[cal3v]

You can't do much more. Just don't do anything to stress the fish.

[31-2c]

Hey RM

Dont let terry discourage you. Just keep up the treatments you are using. It sounds as if everything is going well. Some people just don't like the hear that there are easier ways than they use.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted

David

[naesco]

It is good news to see that your Moorish Idol is free of ich and that your Naso is free of ich as well. Both these fish are ich magnets.
However, continue just as diligently (4 or 5) good-sized feedings a day) with the garlic extract (not juice) treatment as you have.

IME it is normal for the ich to resurface a bit. This is because of the initial 100 or so that first attached to your MI, many thousands of tomonts were produced and some would make their way back on a fish.

The fact that they almost fell off the fish as soon as they attached is not the work of the cleaner shrimp although they certainly help.
IMO your fish have now 'garlic in them'. When an ich trys to attach they are 'poisoned' for lack of a better word and fall off.
I think they will than die because they miss the fish host part of their cycle.

It is wise to take TerriB advice an prepare a QT. It is a backup for your beautiful fish.

You can choose between the hyposalinity backup or the chemical one. I have no experience with hyposalinity and would defer to TerriB's advice.

IME if you choose the chemical treatment backup choose Greenex as the chemical. Follow the directions carefully. Keep the lights off in the QT on the days you medicate and do not use carbon filtration.

IME copper treatments are totally ineffective and speaking of metals, Canada won the gold medal in hockey.

[TerryB]

Naesco said:
"IME it is normal for the ich to resurface a bit. This is because of the initial 100 or so that first attached to your MI, many thousands of tomonts were produced and some would make their way back on a fish."
I can tell you for a fact that this is not how hyposalinity or copper work. If the spots leave and then come back it means that the treatment is not working. The copper would either be too low or the salinity too high. Treatments for ich work by interupting the life cycle of the parasite and since the spots are coming and going it is obvious that the life cycle is not being interupted. Perhaps garlic doesn't work in this way, but it is natural for the spots to come and go even if you do not treat with anything at all. The problem if you don't interupt the life cycle the population of parasites just keeps increasing. If the spots stay gone for more than a week then you may be making some progress.
Good luck,
Terry B

[Bomber]

RM

It would serve no purpose to keep repeating the solid advice that Terry keeps giving you but maybe if you hear it from enough people, it will start to make sense.

>so I need advice on what other measures I can take while everything remains in the display tank.<

Problem with a "reef tank" is the inverts. Parasites are inverts too. Anything that will aggressively effect the parasites will effect all inverts. Another major thing to consider, any attack by one single parasite will weaken the host animal leaving them open to attacks by other parasites and disease. It's not uncommon at all for a fish to initially be weakened by "ick" only to succumb to another parasite/disease, considering that "ick" in itself is not that big of a problem.

>A UV light is limited in effectiveness and you need a powerful one with a slow flow rate. <

Actually what you need is a UV powerful enough to have a fast flow rate. Didn't we establish that you have aprox 150gal in your system. Since you're not just treating the tank but the entire volume of water. That's where the swimming/floating stage of the parasite will be.
Ideally, you need a UV powerful enough to turn over your system volume 4 - 5 times an hour. That would be a UV rated to "kill ick in saltwater" at a flow rate of aprox 600-750 gal per hour. Keep in mind that most manfs rate their UV's flow rate to kill algae in fresh water, a much easier kill. That dwell time will have no effect on saltwater ick.

HTH
Jerel

[TerryB]

Jerel is right, I should have said the correct flow rate. The exposure time does need to be long enough in the tube and at a high enough strength to kill the parasites. Even then many of the newly hatched theronts can find a host without ever swimming through the UV. In smaller tanks the problem is more likely to be that the flow rate is too fast. This is not as easy to do with a 150 gal tank.
Terry B

[maroun.c]

31-2c:
No I do not believe in putting fish into QT for any reason.
Now i understand your reaction, and you can't imagine how wrong you are.

Reefmaniac:
I kept my hyppo tang without tearing up my tank to do hyposalinity and the result was that my tang which is much hardier than the MI is now blind from secondary infection and will be like that till the day he dies, add the sorrow of causing a fish to loose its eyesight to the inconvenience of having to manually feed it every day. How much more do you think your MI will tolerate those spots even if a few?
Believe me just prepare the Q tank and have it cycle if not for this fish at least for new additions or for new diseases.
What's good about this is that this fish is still alive so may be it's immunity is growing and will take things over soon however i learnt not to fully rely on this.
As to the costs of a Q tank I live in Lebanon and I don't know how much things cost where you live. one more thing you have a great looking tank and you don't know what a Q tank consists of, that's really weird.
Wish you luck.
Maroun

[Reef Maniac]

I never had a Q-tank, so I don't know.
Do I need live rock in it?

[maroun.c]

You could use them to cycle it then remove them for if you treat with copper you'll kill the critters on them. I don't keep LR in my Q tank just a few rocks and sometimes some argil cups for teh fish to hide in and feel secure. All there is in my Q tank is a sand bed, airstone, DIY skimmer that i turn off when treating, heater, millenium wet dry filter, and some hiding places. Most din't put a sand bed in because it will absorb medications. My Q tank never cycled without one so i prefer to have some dosing unacuracies then have fish die from ammonia spikes.
One thing to remember if you're going to do Hyposalinity you have to do it to all of your fish so be sure you have a well cycled tank or you'll loose them all in a day. as for new additions a 10 g tank will be enough. Mine is a 10 G i managed to treat 3-4 fish in many times, however frequent water changes and water testing should be made.

[maroun.c]

naesco:The fact that they almost fell off the fish as soon as they attached is not the work of the cleaner shrimp although they certainly help. IMO your fish have now 'garlic in them'. When an ich trys to attach they are 'poisoned' for lack of a better word and fall off.
What makes you sure that it isn't ich appearing on the fish then disappear to reappear in bigger amount later.
Ain't garlic supposed to make the fish invisible to the parasite so that it does not attach to it from the beginning to fall off after?
doesn't that mean that it has lived in the inner of the fish to appear after on the outside?
I could be wrong and these could be old spots which were in the fish and appeared and then fell of.
sometimes i see spots appearing even after a week or two in hyposalinity, but you sound so sure that these spots appearing and falling are 'good news' so could you please explain that?
Maroun

[naesco]

MarounC

The answer to the questions you ask is 'I don't know the answer'
I am guided by the description that reefmaniac gives as the Moorish Idol is not in my tank.
IME with ich, the ich attaches for a number of days. It clears and than comes back with even more ich. If not treated immediately at this point the fish will die within a couple of days.
Yet, at this point 14 days into treatment with garlic this has not happened. Why?
IMO, there is something in the garlic that either kills the ich or interferes with its cycle so that it dies or possibly even goes dormant to reoccur at another stressful event.
So when the spots are on the fish in the morning and are off by the afternoon, I deduced that the ich could not or did not want to 'continue with the 'fish host' stage of the ich cycle.
The 'good news' that I refer to is that I am delighted that an ich infested Moorish Idol is alive and well for two weeks. This is an extremely delicate fish that would not survive a chemical treatment. I have no experience with hyposalinity although my gut tells me the Moorish Idol would probably stop eating again and die in a hyposalinity environment. (Just my opinion).
Understand MarounC that we are far from successful at this point.
I am encouraged to date based on what ReefManiac has reported and based on my personal experience using garlic extract to treat mild forms of ich.

[Frisco]

I am one of the people that has been very informal/irresponsible about quarantining, always telling myself that tossing the fish into the main tank was the lowest stress thing that I could do, but thankfully I have finally gotten into the habit of quarantining fish and realized that a quarantine tank, if properly setup, is really a lower stress environment for new fish and IME practically guarantees that the fish will start eating and adapt to its new home. IMO quarantining a fish is not stressful if you setup the tank right. Having paid the price in the past, I have to say that it can be very risky to put a fish into the tank straight away because you might not see that there's a problem.

It seems like many retailers keep all of their fish in hyposaline water, because almost every single fish I've gotten in the last year or so has come in relatively low salinity bag water, typically 1.016 or 1.017 compared to corals from the same vendors which are in the 1.026-1.030 range. So if my experience is representative of a larger trend, it really begs us to house newly aquired fish in special tanks maintained at similar conditions and allow them to acclimate slowly to the conditions of the main tank. IMO it is much easier and better for the fish to do a fairly quick q-tank salinity change to match the bag water than changing the bag water to match the main tank, especially when talking about a difference of nearly 0.01 SGU and a fish that's been living inside holding tanks and plastic bags for what could be several weeks and probably not being fed well.

I just use one of my many ~32 gallon rubbermaid tubs as my quarantine tank. I have never maintained this tank on an ongoing basis, instead I just do a 30 gallon water change on the tank, take a couple extra rocks from my sump and transfer them to the quarantine tank, and move my skimmer and UV off of the out of the main tank temporarily. I have a spare heater, a couple small pumps, and a bunch of spare PVC parts that I use. With about an hour or two of setup work, I have a quarantine tank. I tend to do fairly big water changes, always using the main tank water, sometimes up to 50-75% per day if needed to make sure that the water stays relatively clean and medicate only if I have to.

But I am starting to think/realize that quarantine by itself is really not enough, because you can still have parasites lingering that are not visible and do not surface until some time later. One of the tangs in my tank is a perfect example - I quarantined when I got it about a year ago it but never proactively medicated it in any way (I don't recall receiving it in hyposaline water or treating it at all) and after I added it to my tank it developed signs of ich. I tried garlic and didn't try to catch it and treat it properly, and although it seemed to help clear the ich up, the fish has also has intermittant signs of some other sub-dermal worm-like parasite. I feel that if I had just treated the fish with hyposalinity and whatever other appropriate, benign treatments were necessary before adding it to the tank, I wouldn't have exposed my tank and other fish to these parasites. Thankfully, I still have the ability to catch and treat the tang and am going to do so shortly.

I think you'll have success if you try to catch your fish with a DIY fish trap. I have had an almost 100% success rate catching fish using an acrylic tube with a hinged trap door that I made for about $4. I just left it in the tank for a day to allow the fish to get used to it and then baited it. Although it took a while for the fish to realize what was going on, once they realized that there was food inside, they all went right in to feed. The only fish that I don't recall entering the trap were green chromis, but my tangs and other fish were in and out if it so often that I could have caught some of them dozens of times per hour. I was shocked to see how easy it was and am surprised that more people don't use these types of approaches.

Good luck with your fish :)

[maroun.c]

Frisco:
I tend to think about quarantining of new fish this way:
- most new fish are under stress and don't eat the first days.
- quarantining gives the fish the chance to get used to new food without competition.
-although small the Q tank offers a safe environmentif there is a hiding place.
- lighting can be dimmed.
- Q tank can be covered so teh fish won't be stressed by persons going inside the room or by a pet going around teh aquarium.
- no established fish to pick on the new arriver and chase it if it comes to its territory. The fish wil go through that when introduced to the tank but that would better be after the cumulative stress it's been into has subsided.
-also if the fish is in 1.016 water going up to 1023 in 1-2 hrs acclimatation could result in a shock to teh fish however inthe Q tank the density can be taken down to match that of the bag then in a few days when the fish is established you can go up with salinity.
- If the fish develops some disease you can medicate promptly and with no aditional stress to the sick fish and to the fish inside the tank.
- if the fish does no eat, itamine drops can be put in the relatively small volum to help the fish but when in a 100G tank you have to empty a bottle of vitamins in the tank every day.
-add to all that the risk of introducing disease to established fish
As to the advantages of direct introduction:
-bigger tank.
-better water conditions
-no risk of ammonia or nitrates.

this is all my own opinion,I guess the majority of us agree that quaratining is necessary and those who don't should give an equal amount of arguments, however this is beyond the purpose of this thread and that we should concentrate on what Reefmaniac should do.
Reefmaniac can you post a good close up pic of the spots on the fish.
Maroun.

[TerryB]

It has been more than a week since we have heard an update on the Morrish Idol and the ich infection. How about bringing us up to date?
Terry B

[Reef Maniac]

Well everything seems to be leveled off. All of the fish seem healthy, There are a few spots here and there, but no infestations. I'm continuing the garlic soaked food 2-3 times daily. My poor red sea sailfin is still in "time out" but seems to be doing quite well. So all in all, everything seems the same. Thanks for your concern! -Roy

[naesco]

That is really good news Reef Maniac. Keep up the treatments. Try one more feeding and keep us advised.

TerriB
It has been one month and the ich is under control. What I mean by this is that the ich is not out of control which would certainly have been the case without the garlic extract treatment.

Terry the reality is that 99% of reefers do not have a QT ready to go to accommodate all their fish in the event of an ich outbreak.
Many do not even have a QT at all.
Would you agree with the following statement which can be incorporated in the reefcentral ich treatment protocol.

"" Garlic extract treatment has been shown to buy sufficient time for the reefer to set up a proper QT to allow for the treatment of ich by hyposalinity or chemical means"
Your comments please?

IMO at the present time, reefers with ich tanks are rushing the QT setup to the detriment of the fish. The QT water parameters are not right. Fish which will not survive in a QT like mandarin are been thrown in. Fish are dying waiting for the reefer to setup the QT.
It is too early to confirm that treatment with garlic extract in this instance is 100% successful although personally I am impressed that an ultra-finicky fish like the Moorish Idol has survived the ich to date.
Does anyone else have any comments on the proposed protocol?

[Bomber]

It has been one month and the ich is under control. What I mean by this is that the ich is not out of control which would certainly have been the case without the garlic extract treatment.

RM,
You still running UV? :D

[Reef Maniac]

Yes, I am still running the UV. I actually got another one on loan from my LFS. I haven't hooked it up yet, do you think I should? It's a small one.

[naesco]

Do it reefmaniac.
Everything helps and UV polishes the water

[TerryB]

Naesco,
It hasn’t been quite a month yet since I believe he started the garlic on Feb. 12th. When he started this I said that the garlic had about a 50% chance of helping, but what do you credit with helping when he is also using a UV and I think cleaners to help as well. The problem is that the parasite is still at work as evidenced by the fact that the fish are still getting the white spots. I eluded to the problem that he may just be putting off the inevitable of eventually having to use a proven treatment or continuing to fight a long term battle that could seriously flare in the future. If the treatment was really effective there would be no more spots by now. This is sort of how a UV light helps at best. A UV light will not get rid of all the parasites, but when used correctly it will kill some of the free floating state (but not all of it).
It is unfortunate that there are a large number of aquatists that do not quarantine. This is the reason that disease boards like this have so much traffic. IMO, this is an irresponsible approach to keeping marine fish. I cannot agree with your premise “Garlic extract treatment has been shown to buy sufficient time for the reefer to set up a proper QT to allow for the treatment of ich by hyposalinity or chemical means.� Garlic is simply not reliable enough as many have attested that it simply didn’t work for them. Maybe at some point in the future garlic will be more effective when some sort of dosage and treatment regime has been standardized. For now people are using different types of garlic at different doses, dosing more or less frequently and varying greatly in the duration of therapy. As I have said before, I don’t think that garlic hurts anything and it often seems to help. Unfortunately, it has not yet shown to be a consistently reliable cure.
If aquarists carefully observe each specimen on a daily basis there is no reason for ich to get out of control before a corrective action is taken. It has been established that is generally takes the completion of multiple life cycle before the fish experience mortalities. I also recommend that people keep a quarantine tank available for ready use. This mean either keeping a cycled tank up and running or at least having a source of biological filtration available for an emergency set-up.
Terry B

[Bomber]

do you think I should? It's a small one.

Si Senor

What's the wattage and brand?

[Reef Maniac]

Bomber, I don't even know. It's a 15 watter though. (very small)

On the other hand, The fish are still doing good. But, my LPS's are dying. I kinda noticed my hammer wasn't opening much anymore about a week ago. Now, it's dying. And my frogspawn isn't opening now, and also my torch. You think its the UV?

[Ironreef]

can't tell you if it's the uv but how much garlic? Maybe it's both? Dunno but I used garlic,uv before never affected my corals. But I had a small uv and didn't use garlic over 2 weeks. If your using large amounts of garlic it maybe affecting the corals? Dunno but seems thats the only different thing?? You do??

[Bomber]

You think its the UV?

Well no. Unless! Did you notice a large difference in water clarity? If you did, you might need to back off on your lighting and start reacclimating them, just like when you put in new bulbs.

If the input and output hoses on the 15w are compatible with the one you have running now. I'd hook it up in series with it. If not, I don't think I'd fool with it.

Jerel

[naesco]

UV will polish the water. Try target feeding the coral affected.
The other change to yur tank is that you have added a Moorish Idol. Have you observed it nipping or 'near your coral?
I would check the water conditions and do a small water change.

[Ironreef]

yeah thats funny the fish your trying to save maybe nipping at your lsp. Not funny really IRONIC I should say. But LSP nipping is pretty common with fish. Even if you don't see it

[Marty M]

I have seen corals react negatively to garlic. One of my four Turbinaria didn't open for a week while feeding a lot of garlic. I also lost one branch of a Torch coral and another branch isn't looking too good. I don't know if a piece of garlic may have settled on them, if it was just garlic in the water, or just a coincidence. My skimmer production was affected too. Whatever the cause, I will contiue to use garlic periodically or when neccessary.

[TerryB]

Are you pouring garlic juice into the tank or just soaking the food? Are you using garlic extract or garlic oil?
Terry B

[Alice]

Phew! I just made it through this thread. I hope the MI owner now knows how to set up a QT if it becomes necessary.

I have a question if I may?

I'm learning here (thanks for all the good info!) but isn't copper also mostly effective against the free swimming stage of the parasite? Or if the parasites are attached lightly to the fish, not deeply embedded in the fish's scales or gills? I had the understanding that copper ions are too big to penetrate the cyst stage of the parasite's life cycle.

Thanks,

Alice

[TerryB]

Copper is only effective against the theront or free-swimming stage.
Terry B

[Marty M]

TerryB,
At first I was using Polaner Crushed Garlic from the grocery, added to food, as I have in the past. The pieces are too fine for most of my fish now because they have grown so much. When they were smaller they would devour all the garlic pieces as well as the soaked food. This time it all scattered and may have settled and irritated some coral. Or it's just a coincidence. I switched to Kyolic Garlic Extract and also fed some Polaner Chopped Garlic, which is the best bite size for most of them now. Curiously, only the one fish in each tank that had a touch of ich would eat the chopped garlic. In fact they both seemed to prefer it to their usual prepared foods. They really devoured the chopped, but none of the others were interested this time. A few days after stopping the garlic feeding the Turbinaria looked much better. It has always been very sensitive to any changes in the system. The torch however has always looked good till now. I recently fragged four branches and it grew four new branches within a month. I can't decide if I should break up the colony now since noticing the failing branch and the dead one.

[TerryB]

It sounds like the trouble was from adding garlic directly to the tank. I only use the liquid garlic extract to soak the foods.
Terry B

[Marty M]

That's what I think too. The crushed went uneaten and remained in the tank. The chopped was all eaten on the spot. No more ich though.

[Reef Maniac]

It appears all of the ich is gone. I havent seen it on any fish in over two weeks. I stopped the garlic treatment about 2 weeks ago, And I just removed the UV sterilizer. All of the fish survived, and appear to be very healthy, including the Moorish Idol. I did however lose all of my LPS's. I dont know what caused that.

And my poor Red Sea Sailfin is still in my 8 gallon Q-tank (plumbed to main system)
I want to put her back in soon, but I am afraid the ich will return. What do you guys think?

[Bomber]

I just removed the UV sterilizer

but I am afraid the ich will return

Roy, is there any reason for not just turning the UV back on?

Jerel

[naesco]

Congratulations on beating the ich.
Do you think the UV caused the LPS death? the cleaner water burnt them? Garlic falling on them. Any observations?
Terry B: have you heard of garlic causing any problems to LPS. News to me.
Reef Maniac
The Moorish Idol IMO will not survive for any length of time. Perhaps the tang has cooled off and when you introduce him to a dark main tank in the evening, he might settle down. If not, the Moorish Idol has got to go. Sorry

[TerryB]

Reef Manic,
That is good news. Keep a close eye on the fish for the next couple of months. You may have gotten rid of the ich or just reduced it to a subclinical level (which is not immediately threatening). I hope you will quarantine all of your fish after this. Be careful the next time that you add a new fish. The parasite may still be in the tank. Fish that have been challenged with ich have a little more resistance to it so it could show up again the next time that you add a new fish that does not have this additional resistance.
I know some people that have reefs run a UV all the time. IMO, this is not good for the plankton that you want to encourage to grow. However, I have my doubts that the UV is the reason that you lost your LPS. Adding garlic to the water or leaving pieces of garlic in the tank can irritate corals. What kind of lighting do you have? How many watts per gallon? What is your photoperiod? Did you loose any SPS?
Terry B

[Marty M]

Reef Maniac,
How big is the sailfin in the 8 gallon?
How is it handling the close quarters?
Is it calm, or agitated?
Where does the Idol stand in the fish heirarchy of the main tank now?
How does the Idol behave?
Can the Sailfin see what is going on in the main tank?
Moorish Idols can be a little domineering. It might become the boss of the tank if not for the Tang. But it doesn't have the Tang defenses or even a Butterfly's dorsal defenses. It's all posturing. The longer you wait for the Idol to become more confident the better. The ich is still there waiting for the fish to stress.

[Reef Maniac]

Bomber: Other than it hanging in front of the tank, no.

Naesco: I don't think the uv killed them. And I used garlic extract, so no "pieces" of garlic fell on them. Not to mention, I stopped using garlic over two weeks ago, and the lps's are still dying off. Could it be the MI? I havent noticed him nipping on them, but I dont watch at night either...

TerryB: Yes, I will quaranteen all fish from no on! I will probably never add another fish anyways! (except the sailfin) I realize that the parasite is still in the tank.
Lighting consists of: 1 400w MH, 2 175w MH, 2 160w Actinic VHO, 3 96w actinic PC. (about 9 watts per gallon)
roughly combined; 13hrs on 11hrs off.
I did lose 1 sps. ( a small one)

Marty M: The Sailfin is mid size I guess. Kinda big, (smaller than the MI) She seems to be doing fine in there. She always gets excited when its feeding time. (she's adjusted well) But I hate seeing her in there...
The Idol is getting along fine with everyone else. I dont see any domineering over any of the fish. Everyone seems kinda equal. Thats why I am very leary about reintroducing the sailfin.
No, The sailfin cannot see the main tank or vice versa.


Thanks Guys!

I was thinking of putting the sailfin back in the tank using some sort of cage or barrier for a while, to see how they react.
Or trying some sort of diversion, like a bunch of cut PVC pipes to confuse the regular fish, while the sailfin readjusts. What do you all think? -Roy

[Bomber]

I was thinking of putting the sailfin back in the tank using some sort of cage or barrier for a while, to see how they react.

Roy, great idea, it's called a "Howdy Cage". We use them all the time to introduce fish together. It's a plastic box, tall enough to sit on the bottom and have the top out of the water. I'm sure you can make one out of plexi.
Leave the fish in there until there are no signs of aggression.
Good thing about it, if it has a relapse and gets ick again, he's all ready caught!

HTH
Jerel

[naesco]

I thought about it and came to the conclusion it is probably the Moorish Idol that is nipping at the coral.
Take a really good look at the ones remaining. You might want to consider buying a LPS and observe it daily for any damage as they appear to be its target.

[Marty M]

Excellent idea guys! I think I'll build one with mesh sides for any new fish. A bad introduction is hard to overcome. Before reading this I was going to suggest letting the Sailfin gorge on her favorite foods till she doesn't want to eat anymore. Drop her back into the main tank and feed immediately. She will probably be a little stressed from being stuffed and will kick back while the other fish go about their business. She won't be as territorial about feeding time because she won't want any of the food. This time she will be the intruder not the Idol.