Algae, Cyano, & Phosphates??

[jkapit]

Here is my setup and my routine. Any insight into a fix would be appreciated.

Equipment and Livestock:

Tank - 180G Reef
Fish - 4" Majestic Angel, 3" lawnmower blenny, 5" Yellow Tang, Royal Gramma, Mandarin, Coral Beauty, Maroon Clown
Corals - Mushroom, Cat's eye, Finger, Torch, Disk, Octopus corals
Clean up crew - 10 Turbo Snails, 3 red hermits

40-Watt Ultraviolet Light
Spectrapure RO-DI makeup water, 60 GPD RO cartridge, .5 micron sediment and carbon prefilter, two SilicaFree DI cartridges plus two SilicaBuster™ Mixed-Bed DI cartridges.
Salt - Oceanic
150lbs of live rock
1000 GPH Iwaki return pump feed into two sea swirls
2 Tunze 6000 on multicontroler pulsing at about 60% of max and 30% at night

Lighting:
600Watts Power compact, 400 watts 6700 - 10-hour photoperiod, 200 watts actinic 12 hour photo period
One side of the tank gets indirect sunlight in the morning

My routine:

I run 1.5L of carbon(assorted brands) changed weekly
1 Pack of phosban changed every 3 months when green diatoms appear on the front glass
Filter sock replaced twice a week
15 gallon water changed twice a week
Feed either small amount of Frozen Mysis or flake food every evening
Feed a little Nori 3 times a week
Five drops of Kent coral food(Chroma Max?) two or 3 times per week.
ETSS 800 downdraft skimmer cleaned weekly and produces on average 3 cups of dark skimmate per week.

Once a month I blow detritus from the live rock

Readings:

Phosphate - .2ppm
Nitrate - 0, Never Higher
Nitrite - 0, Never Higher
Amonia - 0, Never Higher
Calc - 350
PH - 8.1-8.2, Use Sea-chem Marine Buffer to maintain - 2 teaspoons every day or two.


The problem:
My livestock is doing well, but with all the water changes I'm doing I still have two problems:

1) I have a totally green(Medium green colored) covered back glass wall instead of coralline algae. It is green but not hairy. I am not sure if it is green hair algae groomed by the snails and blenny or green diatoms that just won't disappear. It's definitely not cyano. The weird thing is that the overflow walls are acrylic and they only have coralline algae on them.

2)Have a fair amount of CYANO on my sand as well as a number of the live rock pieces. I just started to siphon this stuff off the sand and rock since it is becoming a problem for the corals, but it is pretty thick and doesn't always want to detach.

3)Rocks have some green algae/film, could be cyano on them, but not sure.

To cure this with out having to scrape the back wall or siphon the cyano I did the following:


1)Run the skimmer wet to help it remove as much as stuff possible. It removes anywhere between 3 and 9 cups a week, but now I guess the water has very low nutrients and is routinely produces 3 cups a week.

2)Change 1L of carbon twice a week

3)Change to Tropic Marine - Helped a little over oceanic, but then I had trouble maintaining calc and PH levels. Changed back to Oceanic

4)Recently Change my light bulbs

5)Just put in new RO filters and DI filters

6)Just put in chemi-pure instead of my normal carbon

7)Put Tunze on full blast 24/7 but blew off some flesh from one of my corals so I turned it down to 30% and 60% wave pulse and 30% at night. It's hard for me to believe I don't have enough flow, but some of the red cyano was turning brown, but I felt like I was killing my corals with such high flow.

The only thing I have not tried is using ozone but I am not sure if I have a nutrient problem or phosphate problem or what. The water I use is from an underground well which has very high phosphates. My tap water has over 3PPM, but has zero based on my Salifert Test Kit after the RO-DI. The other weird thing is that my red sea test kit shows .2PPM after the RO-DI system. I am assuming the salifert kit is more accurate, but I don't really know.


Any help would be appreciated; I am running out of ideas.


THanks

[mogulski]

the 6700K lights could lead to algae buildup plus the fact that one side of your tank sits in direct sunlight. maybe try to cut your "white light" photo period down to eight hours. when those bulbs live out their effective life switch up to 10K's.
with the tunzes and recirc pump, how nmany times does your tank turn over per hour?
even with lots of turnover sometimes water circulation misses the hard to reach spots and algae is created. also, clean up critters seems light
somehow nutrients are entering your system, even though you run phosban

[CitCat21]

Salt - Oceanic
How long have you been using oceanic i've read horror stories of algae problems occuring after a year of prolonged use.

What is your alkalinity?

i agree that a higher spectrum bulb would help.

I'm thinking Dino's on the sand aand rock because Cyano does not hold together well and dino's do.

I also agree with the cleanup crew being light.

Your calcium seems low and if it's balanced your alkalinity would be low which would allow the dinos to grow they are intollerent of high alkalinity and PH.

I'm also betting the growth on the back is a different color of coraline. the overflow would get more light than the back of the tank so it should be a more purple color. In lower light you get greens, oranges , and reds.

I know i jumped areound a bit but i HTH

[bond007069]

Any sunlight hitting the tank?

[jkapit]

'the 6700K lights could lead to algae buildup plus the fact that one side of your tank sits in direct sunlight. maybe try to cut your "white light" photo period down to eight hours. when those bulbs live out their effective life switch up to 10K's.

>Thanks for the feedback, unfortunately I just replaced my white lights which had dual 10K's/6.7K bulbs and went with just the 6700's this week for $120 bucks. I actually had this problem licked about 9 months ago for a two month period and had the 6700's in then, but when it was time to change those bulbs since they were 12months old I went with the 10K/6.7K dual bulbs. My theory on the new choice although not scientific was since I licked the problem previously with 6.7K bulbs I can hopefuly fix it again.

'with the tunzes and recirc pump, how nmany times does your tank turn over per hour?'

>I calculate the tunze are about 900GPH and the main pump is 950GPH and the tank is a 175, it would be 10X

[bond007069]

i had a bad problem with green hair algea. My PO4 was zero. So i added polyfilter, bordered up sunlight window, changed MH bulbs, added kalk drip, increase my pH, cut back lighting by 1 hour, added two fans to get a 1-2 degrees cooler, suctioned the crap out.

Now my tank is great
:bounce1: :bounce1: :bounce2: :bounce2: :bounce3: :bounce3: :beer:

For now

[isom]

sounds like you have some sort of problem with nutrients or phosphates, something to feed the algae. solving this will get rid of most of your algae growth. i finally got hair algae under control when i started dripping kalk.... the kalk binds with the phosphates and renders them useless to the algae. hair algae was completely gone in less than a month. do you use kalk??

also, you definitely need to bulk up your cleanup crew. 10 snails are not even close to adequate for a 180 gallon tank. ive got almost 30 snails in a 30 gallon. you could have 100's of snails! this will not solve your algae problem, but it may help keep things under control once you get the main problem solved.

[CitCat21]

a Little more flow shouldn't hurt

I have 2 ph for a total of 405Gph
an HOB at 150gph
and the pump for my skimmer is rated at 660 gph

that's all on a 40gallon

[jkapit]

Salt - Oceanic
How long have you been using oceanic i've read horror stories of algae problems occuring after a year of prolonged use.

>I set up my tank using Reef Crystals but had issues maintaining PH and calc. When I would put BIONIC in daily my sand was clumping up and I had this algae/cyano problem as well. When I switch to Oceanic and a more rigourous water change and cleaning schedule my tank became perfect. That was from last November until January.

The algae came back and I read on the forum that many people were having problems with Oceanic so I tried Tropic marine. I wound up having the same PH and Low Calc issues with TM that I had with Reef Crystals so I went back to Oceanic. The algae problem did not go away with TM, it might have been slightly less but that was about it. That was after three buckets of water changes.

What is your alkalinity?

>I use the Hagen Test kit and I always get confused on degrees of hardness, etc. but my reading come out to around 8 or 9 which I mutliply by 10 to give me between 80 or 90 Meq/L(I think this is the measurement they use). It idealy is supposed to be around 120 based on the booklet. However when I use my test strips it says my alkalinity is within range.

i agree that a higher spectrum bulb would help.

I'm thinking Dino's on the sand aand rock because Cyano does not hold together well and dino's do.

>Can dino's be deep scarlet red? The stuff comes off the sand easy and it is jelly like but doesn't just detach without using some force from the end of the tube to remove it from the rock.

I also agree with the cleanup crew being light.

Your calcium seems low and if it's balanced your alkalinity would be low which would allow the dinos to grow they are intollerent of high alkalinity and PH.

I'm also betting the growth on the back is a different color of coraline. the overflow would get more light than the back of the tank so it should be a more purple color. In lower light you get greens, oranges , and reds.

>You could be right because I do have some orange coverage on my rocks down low in the back, but the back wall is getting very strong lighting. I am going to take the canopy off and scrape it a little bit to see what the texture is.

Another thing is I had a small bullet goby in the tank but he wound up not getting enough to eat so I gave him to a friend, I'm not sure what ever this growth is but it does not seem edible.

[jkapit]

Any sunlight hitting the tank?

>Yes some in the morning for a couple hours but not directly. I was goind to put some cardboard up to shade the tank from it and see if that would help.

[jkapit]

sounds like you have some sort of problem with nutrients or phosphates, something to feed the algae. solving this will get rid of most of your algae growth. i finally got hair algae under control when i started dripping kalk.... the kalk binds with the phosphates and renders them useless to the algae. hair algae was completely gone in less than a month. do you use kalk??

>No, I may try this. Thanks

also, you definitely need to bulk up your cleanup crew. 10 snails are not even close to adequate for a 180 gallon tank. ive got almost 30 snails in a 30 gallon. you could have 100's of snails! this will not solve your algae problem, but it may help keep things under control once you get the main problem solved.

>Well I have 10 large Turbos. I have hudreds of tiny snails 1/4" that come out later in the day/early evening all over the rocks and glass. The thing is, is that when the Snails eat along the back wall they don't remove the green stuff that is on the back wall. When I originally was dealing with algea it looked like 1/2 long turf and the snails would pick it from the glass clean and all that was left was the pink corraline algae. That does not happen now.

[CitCat21]

>I use the Hagen Test kit and I always get confused on degrees of hardness, etc. but my reading come out to around 8 or 9 which I mutliply by 10 to give me between 80 or 90 Meq/L(I think this is the measurement they use). It idealy is supposed to be around 120 based on the booklet. However when I use my test strips it says my alkalinity is within range.

I would have to say that it is a little on the low side. I use test strips as a guideline but always trust a real test kit more.

>Can dino's be deep scarlet red? The stuff comes off the sand easy and it is jelly like but doesn't just detach without using some force from the end of the tube to remove it from the rock.

Dino's can be anywhere from light brown to red to crimson to black so yes they can be scarlet red. Its squishy and gross feeling sounds right.

So a higher alk and if you slowly raise your ph up to 8.4-8.6 they should go away.

The trouble with determing the difference between Dino and Cyano is their similarties.

[jkapit]

Thanks Citcat21,

So a higher alk and if you slowly raise your ph up to 8.4-8.6 they should go away.

>How should I raise this, by dripping calc or could I use Seachem Marine Buffer?

[CitCat21]

I would use a buffer to do this kalk is much better for maintaining levels that adjusting them.

[xinumaster]

Check this thread on how they fixed their cyno.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=500934&highlight=cyno

I use to have cyno all over my tank and even on my acrylic and rocks until I dose my 90g with Erythromyacin and in one day all the cyno were gone.

But I continue to dose it for 4 days. 4 tabs on the 1st day, 3 on 2nd, 2 on 3rd and 1 on 4th day. It has been 4 weeks now and I don't see it coming back and my sand is crystal clear.

[bond007069]

"It'll be back again once that Erythromycin works its way out of your system. There's a product that you can buy (Red Slime Remover) that is basically just Erythro. powder...and it works fine short-term...but unless you find out exactly why you have the nutrient problem that you do to cause the bloom in the first place, the cyano will be back with a vengeance. And while the cyano is gone, what is consuming those other nutrients? I'd watch out for other algae blooms as well as deteriorating water conditions."

Read it throught yet it may work but you still have a problem

[MrPike]

You need to get the phosphate levels down, they are mico algae's best friend.

-Wet skimming - Cup a day
-Refugium - macro algae harvesting
-Drip kalk
-Run phosban (this may or may not get rid of organic phosphates, which we cannot test for easily)

To actually eat the algae thats growing in your tank id get a longspine urchin, mine eats hair algae, diatoms, cyano, excellent scavenger imho.

Good luck =)

[kevensquint]

I find it strange that you have cyano or dino's with a 40 watt U.V on there. Are you sure the flow through it is slow enough to kill that stuff? Also it may be dirty or the bulb too old. I got rid of my dino's with 30% weekly water changes over a month, even though your tests show no nitrates or phos, they may be there and the dino's are using them up as fast as they are produced.( fish food, fish poop etc..) Lose the phosban it may release aluminum in the water, iron oxide hydroxide is a better choice, macro's in a sump or fuge is the best choice.P.S I think the green on your glass is green coraline, if you change the spectrum of your lights, you'll probably also encourage a different kind of coraline. It did for me.

[jkapit]

kevensquint


Thanks for the reply.

I think I'm OK with the flow rate on the UV since I split the 950 GPH return between the Chiller and UV so it gets 475GPH which is inline with the the manufacture's guidlines. They recommend a max of 967GPH for use as a sterilizer and I have it slowed down to almost half that. The UV bulb is replace yearly and my quartz sleeve is clean.

I am using Power Compacts, the green algae which I'm starting to beleive may be green corraline algae. I have the choice of 6700 or 10K. Is there some other light choice that is better?

I think you are thinking that I am using phosguard. I stopped using that because I would get hard green algae on my front and side glass which I thought were diatoms but I don't really know. When I switched to Phosban after I scrapped them off, they did not reappear until the phosban was exhausted after around 3 months or so. It could be whatever is on the back glass is the same thing I just never scraped it off.

I have about 4" by 13" free area in my sump to put Macro Algae. DO you think that is enough room to make a difference. Also, what type of light would you recommend to grow the macro and would you run the light 24/7?


Thanks

[CitCat21]

Originally posted by kevensquint
I find it strange that you have cyano or dino's with a 40 watt U.V on there. Are you sure the flow through it is slow enough to kill that stuff? Also it may be dirty or the bulb too old. I got rid of my dino's with 30% weekly water changes over a month, even though your tests show no nitrates or phos, they may be there and the dino's are using them up as fast as they are produced.( fish food, fish poop etc..) Lose the phosban it may release aluminum in the water, iron oxide hydroxide is a better choice, macro's in a sump or fuge is the best choice.P.S I think the green on your glass is green coraline, if you change the spectrum of your lights, you'll probably also encourage a different kind of coraline. It did for me.

Actually Phosban and Rawophos are iron based it's phosguard that is aluminum based

[moumda]

Macro would help. Very wide variety of light for macro but generaly the brighter the better. I use Kalk for all my make-up water and I have almost no green algea and lots of coraline. I would not use an antibiotic in my tank to get rid of cyno because I believe it would kill all the benifical bacteria and my problems would be amplified. IMO, kalk for makeup, nutient export, and water changes will get you where you want to go. BTW- chateo is my algea of choice.

[jkapit]

Thanks everyone for their feedback. It's been very helpful.

A little bit of an update.

1)I scraped some of the green algae from the back glass and although I don't have a microscope I think this is actually green coralline algae. I scrapped most of it off and I am interested to see what grows back, pink or green. I have brand new lights so I'm hoping pink since it looks better.

2)I found a source of phosphates entering the tank. I have well water which has very high phosphates and I weekly wash my filter bags in the washing machine with bleach. I tested some RO-DI water and had 0 phosphates then I dripped a cup of RO-DI water through the filter bag and got a reading of .03 ppm. Then I soaked the end of the filter bag in the water for a few minutes and tested it. It tested .1ppm.

3)After doing some more research, the slime on my rocks is definitely not cyano. It is either dyno or diatoms. It starts off brownish then turns more red. Right now, I just am siphoning it off and hopefully as my phosphates go down it will disappear.

That being said I now have to figure out how to wash these filter bags with out using the washing machine. Any ideas are welcome.

I am going to work on the phosphate issue now. My next move is probably putting macro in the sump.

Thanks agiain

[CitCat21]

If you raise your PH to 8.6 the dinos will fade fairly quickly and keep up with the manual removal.

i have never washed a filter bag other than rinsing it off. Maybe replacing them is an option i think some of the cheaper ones are less than a dollar.