just installed a velocity t3???????

[mecold]

Ok.. I was using a mag 18 submersed in my sump, but the vibration drove my wife and I nuts. Also it pushed my temp to 84f. This is from a 77f. Now I am using a velocity t3 and no more noise or vibration. I love silence, but now My temp is up to 85.5f.... I am not running any lights right now. My only though is my stand is almost completly solid. The only hole is one that I cut for my power cords in the back. Should I cut a larger opening in the back of the cabinet for ventilation????

Thanks
Paul

[spazz]

you might want to cut 2 holes and install computer fans in them to help cool it down. most stands are fully open in the back alowing the hotter air to escape.

[mecold]

I suspect that my problem is just that. The hot air is trapped in the stand. I am thinking it is time to break out the jigsaw and cut out a nice large rectangle in the back. Any other ideas?

[Tomzpc]

The velocity pumps are the quietest by far but they will add a degree or two to your temp depending upon system size. Fans will help, both blowing across the tank surface and in the stand blowing into the sump. You will probably need to keep an eye on your topoff though since you'll evaporate water faster from the system.

[mecold]

Definatly going to get my jigsaw in a couple of hours. At least now I have mastered the art of draining my sump. So my plan is (1) Cut a large opening in the back of the stand for ventilation, and (2) place a small fan inside the base of stand. The velocity is quiet, from my ears almost silent, but I expected 2-4 degrees not 7-9..

[mecold]

Just finished cutting rge back of my stand, and hanging a clip fan... I hope this works. Tomorrow I will know.

[Bigreefer345]

velocity pumps will add more then a degree or 2 especially if you have a system size under 100-120 gallons. They are like a 160W heater on 24 hours a day

[Tomzpc]

Originally posted by Bigreefer345
velocity pumps will add more then a degree or 2 especially if you have a system size under 100-120 gallons. They are like a 160W heater on 24 hours a day .

My system is under 100 gallons and my T-3 adds between 1 and 2 degrees. Yes, I've checked it.

[thrlride]

The velocity's are known to add temp. The fans should help.

[mecold]

Thanks thrlride.. Your setup was what made me think to cutout the back of my stand. The back piece was only pressboard anyway. As for the fans helping. Between the new hole in my stand and a clip fan, my temo has been steadily dropong since last night. I have an acrylic tank so the temp is taking quite a while to drop, but it is definatly dropping.

[BeanAnimal]

I posted this in another pump thread... but it seems the subject keeps coming up.

Regarding the velocity pumps directly:
THEY ARE NOT LIKE 160 WATT HEATER running all the time. This statement could not be furhter from the truth. The pumps only draw 140 watts from the wall and only a percentage of this is transfered as heat... and only a percentage of that heat makes it into the water. Statements like this are what makes liars out of otherwise honest people. Please don't make statements that get repeated and cause confusion to uninformed people.

Seems like the velocity heat bandwagon keeps rolling along without any good information and statement such as the above perpetuate the mis-information.

Pumps come in 2 basic varieties. INTERNAL and EXTERNAL. Any submerisable pump transfers ALL of it's heat to the water. Lets say yoiu have 2 in-sump pumps that pump 500 GPH. Pump1 draws 100 watts, and pump2 draws 40 watts. It is fairly obvious that pump1 will heat the water more than pump2. This is simply because it is less efficient. In other words the pump wastes more energy in the form of heat. The energy is either transformed into HEAT or WATER MOVEMENT. Now lets place PUMP1 side by side with an external pump that draws 100 watts. Which heats the water more? The answer is again quite obvious. The internal pump transfers all of it's heat to the water. The external transfers only some of the heat to the water.

Now lets look at the EXTERNAL PUMPS in more detail. They either have shafts or MAG DRIVES. Shafted pumps transfer heat to the water through the shaft. The heat comes from the motor windings and bearings. If the volute is mounted to the motor frame, then some heat may also be transfered through the plastic. For the most part, mag pumps incorporate the volute into the motor frame. The heat is transfered because the motor and water are only spereated by a thin sheet of plastic. In either case the frame of the motor or pump is open to the room air. The cooler the room air, the more heat it will remove from the pump, and the less heat the water has a chance to remove.

So lets put this in general terms. ANY INTERNAL PUMP will heat the water more than an external pump of the same wattage/efficiency. Most external direct drive pumps are comparable in their heating of the water. The exception being the larger framed motors that are attached to wet ends with an air gap between the volute and motor frame. These larger motors are almost always fan cooled... AND are use on larger systems. If you tossed one of these on a small 75-100 gallon system, the heat rise would be tremendous.

Lets look at yet another misconception.... "THE T4 HEATS MY WATER 10 degrees (or whatever)"

Is that:
10 degrees above another pump rated at the same flow?
10 degrees above another pump rated at the same current draw?
10 degress above the idle tank with no heater?
Is that 10 degrees in an airconditioned room?
Is that 10 Degress in an 81 degree apartment with 80% humidity?
Is that 10 degress above room temperature water?

Cofused? ALL PUMPS ADD HEAT. You have to be clear what you are comparing before you make a statement like "velocity pumps are known for heating the water"

What I am saying is simple. If your room has high humidity and already high temperatures, then the ambient air can not cool the pump frame. More heat will transfer to the water. If the room is 73 degrees then the pump frame will run cooler and will not heat the water as much. If you replace a 50 watt pump with a 100 watt pump, expect some heat gain.

It seems like a few people post bad information and 100's jump on the band wagon without any real numbers or logic.

REAL WORLD NUMBERS:
MAG 19 145 Watts 1500gph@3'
VEL T3 140 Watts 600gph@3'

The mag is almost twice as efficient but is run internally... therefore it heats the water almost as much as the external pump.

Bean

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by Bigreefer345
velocity pumps will add more then a degree or 2 especially if you have a system size under 100-120 gallons. They are like a 160W heater on 24 hours a day

In case it gets missed above... this nonsense equires a response.

The pump draws 140 watts
The pump converts electricity to mechanical motion. In the process the wasted energy is givin off as heat. Even if the EXTERNAL VELOCITY PUMP were to transfer 100% of the heat to the water, it could only transfer 140 watts. In reality the heat transfer is a small portion of the current draw, but could be easily figure out.

Statements like this get passed along to unknowing people... and next thing you know logic and truth are replaced by the twisted reality of misunderstanding and internet fueled nonsense.

Bean

[mecold]

Wow... That is a response.. Thanks bean. I searched for threads about velocity and heat, but didn't find you post. I think my problem was no airflow. The pump was heating up the air inside the cabinet. Then the cabinet was closed with one very small opening for powercords. All this hot air was just getting stuck inside the cabinet getting hotter and hotter, making the the water warmer and warmer. Now I have airflow, and the tank is steadily getting cooler. Good thing to as I pickup my liverock tomorrow.

[Bigreefer345]

Sorry i was mistaken 140W you got my dirft though. Ive run T4 and T3 pumps. On a 90G with 30G sump. It added over 5 degrees for me and seems like the same with the original poster of the problem. Maybe you guys should read aroudn and see other users problems as well

[thrlride]

I would agree that all pumps can add heat to a tank. If comparing the added heat of external pumps the T3 and T4 are worse offenders than say a iwaki or the like.

Comparing a fan cooled pump to a velocity (water cooled) pump can be night/day though.

Is this wrong?

I don't think it comes down to comparing the wattage of the pumps more so the method the pump uses to handle that heat. One tried to dissipate the heat with air, the other uses water which just so happens to raise the temp of the tank more.

[thrlride]

Originally posted by mecold
Thanks thrlride.. Your setup was what made me think to cutout the back of my stand. The back piece was only pressboard anyway. As for the fans helping. Between the new hole in my stand and a clip fan, my temo has been steadily dropong since last night. I have an acrylic tank so the temp is taking quite a while to drop, but it is definatly dropping.

Thanks mecold! I hope it works out for you! When I cut the back out of my stand it was more for access to the sump and plumbing than cooling in mind. I don't even have a fan on my sump, just two 4" fans in my canopy.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by Bigreefer345
Sorry i was mistaken 140W you got my dirft though. Ive run T4 and T3 pumps. On a 90G with 30G sump. It added over 5 degrees for me and seems like the same with the original poster of the problem. Maybe you guys should read aroudn and see other users problems as well

That is the point exactly...

You claim it added 5 degrees.... but 5 degrees compared to what?? There is no point of reference. 140 watts is what the pump uses... it does not put nearly that much into the water. Also, how many people will read that and regurgitate it as fact?

Just like the original poster had a temp gain. If you look at the 2 pump it is easy to see why. The internal pump was 145 watts and the external 140. However the external is only 1/2 as efficient as the internal. Therefore they both add just about the same amount of heat to the system. If he were to run them both externally , then the mag 18 would run even cooler, it is a more efficient pump. However the T3 will pump at a higher head under more pressure.

Each setup is different and has to be looked at differently. Just saying that T4 add heat is to broad a statement. ALL PUMPS ADD HEAT. There are plenty of pumps that add more heat than the velocities.

I hope this makes sense.

[BeanAnimal]

Yes the methed the pump uses to stay cool will play a role. Just because a pump uses a fan to cool itself does not mean that heat is not transfered to the water.

The power consumption of the pump is very relevant. Use this with the GPM and you can see the overall efficiency. You can then look at how the pump transfers heat to the water. All of these things will tell you how the pump will perform. You also have to decide on noise, size and duty cycle or task.

Regarding the velocity being the worst offender. Compare this pump to others that are as silent and push the same amount of water.

If you lock any of them in a cabinent with low airflow, they will all heat the water according to their power cunsumption. It's almost like submerging them in the sump.

Bean

[thrlride]

I understand your beef.

What are some pumps that push as much water and are silent?

The panworld 50px-x pushes roughly twice the amount of water with the same power consumption as a T1.

Which would add more heat?
The panworld is probably louder since it is fan cooled but heat seems to be the biggest concern with most people.

[BeanAnimal]

I would imagine they are similar in heating factor. The panworld may be slightly less due to a lower operating temperature and the fact that it is a mag drive. Then again, this depends on the room temp compared to the water temp. Also note that the panworld you listed has no pump curve (at least that i can find) So I am curious as to what it does at a comparable head.

Bean

[thrlride]

The panworld I listed is the same as the Iwaki 30RLXT

The iwaki is listed at 960 at 4' head.

What are some pumps that push as much water and are silent?

[BeanAnimal]

The velocity pumps are dead silent. I run a t4 and have to put my hand on it to tell if it is running or not.

I have heard that the sequence pumps are quiet. There have been a few threads lately on the subject.

Lets put it this way. NOT A SINGLE person has ever said their t4 was noisy or they ever saw a t4 they could hear. I have seen dozens of people say "Bah my sequence is load compared to a t4" etc. Use the search function you will find a lot of "Quiet pump threads"

Bean

[thrlride]

I was doing those searches when a supposed little giant pump was claimed to be silent. :) I now use the panworld.

The typical answers you always hear came up with my searches.

I would venture to say that most people switching to a T3 or T4 pump will have a rise in temp just from the popular pumps that most people use. Mag, iwaki, etc.

To say a blanket statement that your temp will rise could be wrong I guess depending on the pump they are switching from but in most cases it seems to be true. The same is said for the magdrive internal pumps.

If you need dead silence you can't beat the velocity pumps though.

[JustOneMoreTank]

I did not get a Velocity pump because of the heat that is released to the tank. The pump is quiet yes... I have seen one working. However the pump cools itself using the tank water!?!?! Yikes! Most reefers that I know are trying to keep their tanks as cool as possible.
Adding a chiller is an option however I have yet to see a chiller that is as silent as the T3 or T4 pump. :)
The Sequence pumps made by MDM are interesting. Use lower watts and are lower RPM. They are very efficient, quiet, and produce lots of gph. I have been told that they add substantially less heat to the water but have not tested this first hand.

[BeanAnimal]

JustOneMoreTank

Most pumps are cooled by their wet ends. No matter if they have a fan or not. Also again, the velocoity pumps contribute heat to the water... BUT SO DOES EVERY INTERNAL PUMP. I think you would be suprised if you ran a test

100 gallon tank of water in a room that is a constant 75 degrees. The test would consist of running each pump for 24 hours starting with the tank at room temperature. The results would be shown with the gph/current draw on one acces and the temp gain of the water body on the other.

The test would be repeated in a room with an ambient temperature of 80 degrees.

I think the results would suprise you. Many of the popular pumps would add a trmendous amount of heat compared to their efficiency.

Bean

[BeanAnimal]

FURTHERMORE: It amazes me how even in this thread people can ignore the facts and the physics and come up with a statement like "I did not get a Velocity pump because of the heat that is released to the tank"

Heat released comapred to what? Compared to a powerhead or compared to another 1200 gph silent pump?

Also: Why do you assume that if you run a t4 you need a chiller? I have a T4 and my heater runs a pretty heavy duty cycle. I will be adding another T4 this week.

Bean

[Bigreefer345]

Bean, why do you keep saying compared to what? compared to anything, its a fact the Velocity series pumps add more heat then any other kind of pump so you can compare it to anything.

More then a powerhead WAYYYYYY MORE, There are no other silent pumps so that comparison is out. More then another external 1200GPH pump YESSSS more then any other 1200GPH pump

The things add heat. Alot of it for 1200GPH worth of flow

[JustOneMoreTank]

I simply meant to discuss the Velocity pump with an open mind. I am anxious to learn why if in fact the pump adds or does not add excess heat to the tank's water. So please dont feel threatened or as if anyone stating a different opinion has ill feelings toward anyone else.

The output of a tested Velocity pump fell well below the mfg rated spec. by someone here on this pump. He ran the pump without backpressure and calculated the gph and was not impressed and ended up returning the pump to MarineDepot I believe.
Also compared to other inline or external pumps I believe that it adds considerably more heat. No I have not run double blind clinical trials to come to this conclusion. Just noticed 2 SW tanks running the pumps and both tanks are running too hot in my opinion.
I really looked in to this because my tank is going in my living room and the wife is not excited about it. I wanted a quiet pump so that she will have less reasons to dislike the tank. I was very very close to getting a Velocity pump. Instead I went with a PanWorld pump that I think is quiet enough and adds less heat to the water. (the PanWorld pump is not water cooled and the Velocity pump is water cooled)
:)

[JustOneMoreTank]

The RC member who has conducted a couple informal flow tests name is RonD. He has run a Velocity T4 and also a Reeflo pump by MDM.

[reefkeeps]

I had a T4 & T3 hooked up to my 275 tank, when I swapped them out with little giant pump (loud as all hell) pumps, the temp dropped drastically.

I swapped them out because my chiller was going on every 15 minute, the chiller blew a fuse while I was at work, by the time I got home the water was over 90 degrees. Now the tank averages about 83 when the chiller is disabled. I say disable because the chiller no longer short cycles so I don't blow fuses anymore. It's rare I hear the chiller even come on.

Also, try this, hook up a T4 to a 5 gallon bucket and run it in for more than 8 hours. The water will be well over 140 degrees, I actually stopped at 8 hours because I felt the bucket getting soft! I can run the little giant pumps for more than a day with no issues.

Personally I hate the lawn mower LG pumps but the T4 (Water cooled pump) is not a viable option either. In Florida if you own a T4 it's quite likely you will need a chiller. That may be very different in Pittsburg.

[JustOneMoreTank]

Wow... a T4 into a 5 gal bucket and 8 hours later that high of a temp!? I am not sure if I believe that!?! Not calling you a liar but wow.
I would like to get my hands on one to test out myself really.

I also agree that submersible pumps add significant heat into peoples systems without them really knowing it. However the Velocity series of pumps adds more heat than any of the other external or inline pumps in my (admittadly) limited experience.

[JustOneMoreTank]

It is interesting to note that some companies who sell pumps will warn buyers of the excess heat that the Velocity pumps generate. For instance:

http://www.reefgeek.com/products/categories/pumps/103153.html
It says " **Please note these pumps are water cooled and consequently they can add heat to your water.** " at the last line of the description of the pump and it is surrounded by astericks.

Most of the other pumps listed at www.ReefGeek.com only make comments such as "minimal heat" and "minimal noise". It is odd that they would have to put a warning on the Velocity pump. Possibly it is because customers have been complaining or returning pumps??? I dont know. :confused: But it is a good possibility.

[Simms142]

It seems to me some people here are in denial. Everyone i have heard of who used a velocity pump said it added a good amount or a lot of heat to the water.

[reefkeeps]

JustOneMoreTan, I was shocked that it could get that high, I called my wife out (dragged) she felt the side of the bucket and said is that going to cause a fire!

[reefkeeps]

LOL I'm not alone! SEE BELOW

gabe3d
Registered Member

Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Elk Grove (Sacramento)
Occupation: Engineer
Posts: 532



quote:Originally posted by SHOmuchFUN
Wow, just looked at the RIO hyperflows...
1600gph for 100 watts on the 26HF, 1350 at 4ft.

That seems like a pretty good little pump... They look fairly cheap though. Does anybody know if heat is a factor with these pumps? I would imagine so.



As i was storing my Rios away i took the action to clean them by running them in a 5 gallon bucket with cold water and vinegar. (half full with 4 cups of vinegar). I ran them for 30 or so minutes. When i opened up the lid i felt a heat wave. I stuck my hand in the bucket and was surprised at the temperature of the water (no wonder they recommend running it submerged). I measured it to be close to 80 celcius. I'm sure on a larger body of water the impact will be much different since the variables are different.

BTW, i did notice that having three of them help me keep my tank, a 125 gallon, temperature in check during the winter with minimal heater. Now that i only have hte Sequence hte heaters are on quite often.

Gabe

Interests: Aquaria, Photography, Computer, Car, Sports, Motorcycle (stolen 11/01/04)

[BeanAnimal]

The reefgeek disclaimer is surely a result of returns from misinformed customers. Secondly I never said the pumps were efficient. I also did not infer that there was no heat gain associated with these pumps. I do however stand by the fact that they get a bad wrap from misinformed people who perpetuate the idea that they are horrible pumps that act like 160 watt heaters. I have a MAG 9.5 that heats my tank almost as much as the T4 (1 degree difference).

I would also agree that if your home has a high ambient temperature then the T4 (or any pump that is not an external mag drive with a fan) my pose a problem. If the heat is not removed from the external pump by air, then the water must do it. This means that a pump in the bottom of your stand is likely going to cause heat problems.

The pumps have a place in our hobby.... it is called silence. WIth any choice of pumps there is a trade off. Mag drives dont do well as pressure pumps... direct drive pumps have wear parts and transfer heat. Fans casue noise and the lack of fans causes heat buildup.

I play with pumps of all kinds... from our little hobby pumps to large pumps that are capable of 1000GPM at 5000PSI. I am not defending my choice of pump either. If somebody could find a more efficient pump that runs this quiet... sign me up. I don't like the 140 watts a single bit.

Bean

[mecold]

I have to agree with beananimal on the haet released from pumps issue. The velocity t3 I purchased was to replace my mag18.. Two reasons here. First, Mag18 was way to much flow for sump and ears. Second, my mag18 was loud when run submerged and sitting on a mouse pad. That thing really shook up my setup with vibrations and could quite literally be heard through the whole house. On a side not my temp with no pump was 76-77 and with mag18 and nothing else 83.5 and slowly rising. I bought the velocity for the express fact it was silent and vibration free. I understood it could raise temps 2-3 degrees, but was not prepaired for heat as I should have been. My temps are still falling now and are down to almost 83.5... I can say I am very happy with my purchase of a velocity, as are my wife and cats. I am considering buying a backup pump to use when cleaning the velocity or for just whatever, and the panworld is what I think I will buy.

[Bigreefer345]

hey bean do you manufacture or sell these pumps? your certainly selling them pretty hard

[HippieSmell]

Originally posted by Bigreefer345
hey bean do you manufacture or sell these pumps? your certainly selling them pretty hard

You beat me to it :lol:

[BeanAnimal]

No I own an IT consulting company and have worked in the coal mines for 15 years. I could care less what pump you or anybody buys. I just hate to see bad information passed like it is fact. I also like to help people here and provide factual information to those who need it.

This thread is a perfect example. "Well I know people who have had their tanks jump 3000 degrees with so and so pump"

No wonder retailers like reefgeek have to place a disclaimer on their page. Ininformed joe public buys a new tank and a t4 to go with it. His tank goes up 2 degrees and he looks on RC to find out why. He gets misinformed and then returns the pump to the retailer and says it sucks cus the people at RC said so. He then buys a MAG 18 that will heat the water just as much! Yet when somebody tries to explain the real reason... 50 poeple start chanting "t4s are the worst heat offenders in the business" "I had one that rasied my 120 11 degrees" " they are like 160 watt heaters that are on all the time" Its all exagerated nonsense that does a diservice to the confused reefkeeper, the reatailer and the manufacturer.

Bean

[BeanAnimal]

BTW
dropped a mag 9.5 in a 5 gallon bucket at midnight. By 6 this morning the water was 93 degrees. Anybody want to venture what the mag 12 or 18 would do?

[thrlride]

What's funny is that if you look up the mags everyone says they add considerably more heat as well.

I understand the gripe with people saying it is like a 160 watt heater, that's not really true.

Compared to any of the other external pumps it does add more heat, that statement isn't false. I can agree they all add heat though, the velocity just adds more due to it's silent design.

[reefkeeps]

so Bean do you ever sleep?

[Bigreefer345]

The fact that you say reefgeek put a disclaimer on for uninformed customers proves the point. The customer buys the pump expecting a normal amoutn of heat and they return it when the tank gets too hot.

I have PERSONALLY run a T3 and a T4 at seperate times. Amazingly silent pumps but they did add ALOT of heat.

93 degrees and 140-160 degrees is a huge differecce by the way

[reefkeeps]

HUGE <Stirring the pot>

[xrunner1234]

[i]However the pump cools itself using the tank water!?!?! Yikes! Most reefers that I know are trying to keep their tanks as cool as possible. .... I have been told that they add substantially less heat to the water but have not tested this first hand. [/B]

Mine runs super hot on the far side meaning that there is poor thermal contact to the tank water. This is what one wants.

[BeanAnimal]

Bigreefer you miss the point. Reefgeek likely put up the disclaimer because well meaning folks like yourself spread misinformation about the t4 pumps. Your logic is circular and you refuse to understand the facts or the issue here. I am not trying to troll or be rude but you just don't get it.

People seem to be using malformed logic to perpetuate a mistruth or exageration about this product. In return the vendor of the product has more than the normal amount of returns because uninformed end users think that the [t4] is adding more heat than pump x. You ask "compared to what" but you refuse to see that you have to compare the pump to something to determine if it adds more heat.

Lets repeat this one more time with simpler logic.

An external pump depends on the room to remove heat from the pump frame. Depending on the room temperature, this may be efficient or inefficient. If the t4 is couped up inside a stand, the water will remove a larger share of the heat than if the pump is in an airconditioned open space.

The fan on some models of pumps helps to remove heat better in an enclosed space because it forces air to circulate through the cabinent.

Internal pumps add EVERY SINGLE BIT of the heat they generate into the tank. There is no comparison here. The issue become efficiency. Or heat emited per gallon of water pumped.

Regarding external pumps, there are very few silent pumps that will push this much water. There are even fewer pumps that will do so silently against a modest head pressure.

Furthermore, I ran my t4 in 4.5 gallons of water for over 4 hours before I left town yesterday and put the mag 9.5 on my return (In the sump). The heater did not come on any more frequently than it does with the t4 running. This is not scientific as I did not log the heater with software or a stopwatch. I will do so as soon as I get a chance. I would also note that the water in the bucket did not reach 93 degrees in that time. The highest temperature recorded was 91 degrees and seemed to be stable. The ambient room temperature is about 73 degrees. The T4 runs very hot to the touch (as do all motors). I have run 3hp pumps on full bypass (recirculation) for extened times and not attained a temperature of 160 degrees.

I think that this topic is closed until somebody does repeatable tests on a number of pumps under a number of common operating parameters.

Bean

BTW I never sleep...

[JustOneMoreTank]

Bean... I hope that you are not staying awake at night because you are worried that your tank may overheat! :eek1:

[BeanAnimal]

I own a business that takes a lot of my time. I used to work in the mining industry consulting and installing some very specialized products... I still do this from time to time when my services are needed. I also have 14 billion hobbies. I stay up late at nite because I have to much on my mind... not because my T4 is boiling my tank water :)

[JustOneMoreTank]

I hope that you know that I am just kidding. ;)
All kidding aside. I do agree that a submersible pump will transfer any heat that is generated by the pump into the water that it is sitting in. It is false to assume that a 100watt submersible pump of brand X generates an equal amount of heat to a 100watt external pump of brand Y. Each and every pump wastes some electricity consumed and produces some heat.
It is my belief/opinion that the Velocity pump is producing more heat (per unit gph) than other pumps be they external or submersible.
A gentleman (that goes by the name RonD here on RC I think) ran an interesting test of the output of two different pumps. One of which was the VelocityT4 and I cannot remember the other pump... maybe a Sequence pump. He determined that the gph rating was way overstated on the Velocity pump. Instead of the published 1200 gph he calculated it to be only 850gph. This is the link
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=611957
So the pump may not be performing like you think that it is and it is hot. Hmmmm....

[JustOneMoreTank]

Bean I am just kidding with you... :) But I do think that this is an interesting topic. I am really close to buying one of these pumps just to test it out! I want to see how hot it really gets the water and what the output really is. I have to go eat dinner. Will check back a bit later.
:)

[BeanAnimal]

I have not calculated the true output of the T4. It is a lot more than the mag 9.5 I tried first. It is also a lot quieter. The output could very well be less than the specs say. The output is more than enough for my return/sump.

Bean

[thrlride]

The person that switched from a mag 18 to a velocity noticed a jump of a degree.

Name some pumps that add more heat than the velocity, gph being close to equal. Even the mag18 added less heat in the beginning example.

[reefkeeps]

JustOneMoreTank - I'll sell you a T4, I'm getting a Panworld

[JustOneMoreTank]

Reefkeeps... how much you want for it? I got $10 plus will pay up to $15 for shipping. :D
I have a PanWorld as my return as well. Great pump.

[thrlride]

I'm in good company then! Using a panworld myself.

You only hear the fan on mine and it is almost silent. The ambient sounds of a house are louder than my fan is. Much quieter than my PC. It's about as loud as my laptop.

I can't think of any reason why someone would need anything quieter. Heck, my submerged maxi jets and SEIOS are much louder than my panworld.

[mecold]

Which model panworld are you all using? I may very well have to consider one for a spare/replacement pump.

[reefkeeps]

Wow $10, the resell on rough, come on man it's perfect if you want to heat a bath tub!

[BeanAnimal]

reefkeeps do you have another? I am interested if the price is right.

[thrlride]

I have the panworld 50x-x model. I wish I would have bought one more powerful. I run my return on it as well as my calcium reactor.

[reefkeeps]

Yes I have an extra T3 & T4, looking to switch to Panworld pumps.

[gitsumpottery]

Just to add some more fuel to the fire...

I was against pumps that added so much heat to my tank, so I put off running a Velocity for a while. I ran other fan cooled pumps like you have mentioned and the difference in noise factor is night and day!

I currently have a 40 gallon (yes a 40), and I run a T4 and a T2 24/7. Heat problems? Well I don't use a heater, I run a temp controller with fans to keep the heat from rising too much. Yes my heat could get a little high with the pumps, but with 2 fans (one on tank and other in sump), I don't have to worry about one fan stalling.

Basically, this talk about how much heat is added to a tank with a Velocity doesn't really matter. I run a 40 with two velocities, and dual 175's and 190w of VHO's, my tank runs between 80 and 81 degrees.

Zac

[thrlride]

gitsumpottery, what temp do you keep the room it is in?

[gitsumpottery]

I keep the room temp at 74, that is the only problem as I had an A/C thermostat malfunction and the room got to 90 degrees one day. My tank got to about 89, but I just shut one of the pumps off for the day and added another fan, and the temp stabilized around 81 again. The tank with the temp controller can handle about 78-79 degrees, after that I would just rather shut off some equipment to keep it cool.

This is in a living room in a small apartment so I always keep the temp low. We are hooked up to two huge A/C units (I live in a B&B), so we rarely have any problems with the A/C, but I know to shut off a pump if it malfunctions. When I move back to MN, I will have the tank in a basement, so I for sure run Velocities as they are good pumps.

I might add that any tank running halides, etc. will reach a very high temp if the room gets too hot, especially with smaller tanks. Temp control is a tricky thing with these tanks.

Zac

[JustOneMoreTank]

Mecold... I run the PanWorld 50px-x as well.

reefkeeps... so the pump for $10 or do you need me to bump it up to $15 plus another $15 extra to help you cover shipping for the T4?

[thrlride]

My 90 will hover around 81 with two 250 watt DE halides and the panworld pump. It was around 83 until I removed a SEIO powerhead. With the tank already near the 'peak' temp I chose the panworld as I didn't want to raise it anymore. I keep the ambient temp in the room at 74 and I have two 4" fans in the canopy blowing at all times.

[HippieSmell]

I have a Panworld 100px-x and I wish it were more quiet (how do you keep it quiet by the way?). I changed the plumbing from 1 inch to an 1.5 inches and it only adds about 1 degree to my tank (down from around 2 degrees with 1 inch plumbing) but it isn't any more quiet.

[Codeman00]

I have 2 PanWorld pumps on my 75 gallon...a 100PX for the sump return (inside the stand)and a 100PX-X for the closed loop (behind the stand). Both add a 3 degrees or so to my tank..thats about it. Imagine having 2 of these if you think one is loud! And right next to my living room too. The fans both have about the same frequency, so I swear they are much louder because of it.

I called http://soundproofingamerica.com/ for a free consultation. They suggested I order some 1/2" thick mass dense foam they call AmericaMat which I did. They gave me some advice which I had to adapt to aquarium use (cant cover everything like they would like) I systematically took the loudest sound first and worked on it. I wrapped the pipes and it absolutely killed the water drain sound. I built a wooden open box to cover my closed loop pump with (lined it with AmericaMat), then put a 4 x 5 sheet of it on the wall behind the stand to kill the reflective noise, and then lined the thin part of the stand doors with it. The sound was cut down a ton!! Just wrapping the pipes made a considerable difference..the next big thing was lining the wall, then the door lining, then the box..but all of it together really cut the sound down a lot. I still have a few more pieces to place that cut the sound down even more..but I dont want to cut off flow to the fan just to keep the sound down. I'm testing some temperature changes first.

To use this stuff, try to cut the sound off at the source if possible. Sound travels linearly..so you can leave air gaps in your pump box and still kill the sound if you do it right. I only have a half box..just to shield the sound from the direction of the living room.

A 4'x9' sheet cost me $108 shipped..but it was well worth it. (you can order less if needed)

[gitsumpottery]

thrlride,
my fans only run about half the time, so you can see that the pumps aren't that hot...

We both use halides and keep the ambient room temp at the same (74), so you can't knock velocities that much :)

Running two fans constantly must mean that you are above that peak temperature already anyway... ;)

My halides add no heat to my tank since I have such an open canopy. I designed it that way, and I have no problems with temp differences.

Zac

[gitsumpottery]

codeman,
for 110 dollars, it seems like an unnecessary expense if you can quiet it down with the velocity pumps we are talking about. this has turned into a knock the velocity pump thread and rave about panworlds, but i disagree and you can't complain about them if you don't use them.

velocities are good pumps, panworlds are good pumps. My second choice for a pump would be a panworld.

I haven't heard any problems about velocities if the person knew about the heat before they bought the pump. You make allowances to use what you want.

We both win :)

Zac

[Codeman00]

gitsumpottery... I was just trying to help. Hippiesmell asked how he could get his Panworld quieter and I was just answering his question. The soundproofing stuff came after the fact...I had no idea the drains and pump fans were that loud...and it was too late to pick new pumps. Thanks for pointing out that I wasted a lot of money after the fact. I know that but was worried about velocity temp issues (a chiller was a bigger concern).

[gitsumpottery]

sorry codeman, not trying to be pushy... hard day at work :)

Anyway, I just like to back up the velocity pumps since I own three and use two of them (back up third). I like to help people that are looking into them understand that they aren't as bad as what people say they are.

If you look at thrlride's post after mine, you can see that he runs his tank at the same temp and ambient room temp, but he runs two fans 24/7. I only run my fans for about 12 hours a day, and my tank stays at 81.

Won't be rude again.... (slaps hand) I'll play nice.


Zac

[thrlride]

To note though, my canopy is almost sealed and I run my fans 24/7 to keep evaporation up so I can keep adding kalk at a higher rate. :)