Who uses Supreme Mag-Drive?

[superswimmer]

Who uses these pumps? What are the pros and cons? Which would be the best choice for me for a closed loop on a 46gall bow planned to house a moderate number of easy to keep sps.

[jimdogg187]

These are very popular pumps. I use a mag 7 and a 9.5.The factory reccomendation is to NOT run these pumps externally; however, some choose to do so with mixed results. I have not tried it so I cannot comment on how well they work for a closed loop.

[sylaak]

I have mine plumbed to run externally. We'll see how it works when I get the tank full of water this weekend. If it sucks, I'm going to be annoyed. I'll have to fiddle with stuff to get my Iwaki in the space.

[Entropy]

Originally posted by jimdogg187
The factory reccomendation is to NOT run these pumps externally

I could not find this on the Danner website, only on the Marine Depot sit, so I am not sure if this is a true statement. Either way it has been done, but I prefer internal.

As far as how big, it will depend on how much flow you want to achieve but I would say a Mag 7 would be a good choice. 500gph would give you an additional 15x turnover combined with whatever you already have.

[lvreefer]

I have used these for years as return pumps and also for skimmers. They are very reliable. However I have only ran them submerged.

[jimdogg187]

Originally posted by Entropy
I could not find this on the Danner website, only on the Marine Depot sit, so I am not sure if this is a true statement. Either way it has been done, but I prefer internal.

As far as how big, it will depend on how much flow you want to achieve but I would say a Mag 7 would be a good choice. 500gph would give you an additional 15x turnover combined with whatever you already have.

My mistake. Entropy is correct. I also found this information on MD's website. However, now that I look at my 9.5's instruction manual, it states the pump may be run externally. So, Mag Drives are suitable for external use. The only problems I have seen with them being run externally is salt creep on a Mag 7. HTH. Sorry about the misinformation.

Jim

[tgreene]

Here's my Mag-12 & Mag-18...

http://www.great-river.com/pix/reef/cabinet-3.jpg

[superswimmer]

What about heat?
My tank is around 79-80degrees. I have heard they will heat up my water quite a bit.

[tgreene]

They are are the warm side, which is another reason to run them externally... The difference from internal to external can easily be 3-4 degrees.

[Quinster]

I run 3 MAG 18's all external with no problems...1 was new and 2 were used when I got them in Nov., and no problems. I am also using a MAG 250 on my calcium reactor without a drip.

[BeanAnimal]

All internal pumps will heat the water. If a pump draws 100 watts, the heat has to go someplace. If the pump is in the tank, where do you think the heat goes?

I read thread after thread about this pump or that pump heating the water....All the while people neglet to mention that ALL internal pumps heat the water, and most externals do as well. ANy external pump with a shaft will heat the water more than an external mad drive. Any pump with a wet end attached directly to the motor frame will heat the water more than a pump with a spaced-off wet end.

Mags have also got a bad rap for leaking when setup outside the sump. This was true for one of the models due to the way the seals were positioned and the torque on the faceplate screws. It also seems to be a prevelant after people remove and replace the front cover (for cleaning). The remedy is to simply take your time and make sure you form a good seal.

My LFS (not saying they are expers at all) has several external mags running on their coral display. I know these things have been in that stand for YEARS. I look under there all the time and I know they have never been cleaned or changed, just by the dust and clutter that is around them. No salt creep, no leaks.

ALL of that said... I have read wonderful things about the ehiem pumps and will be trying one of those and getting rid of my mag 9.5. I simply heard the ehiems are quieter.

Bean

[BeanAnimal]

Let me add another point to this heating issue.

If you have 2 pumps that are both rated at 500gph@4ft head but pump #1 consumes 100 watts and pump #2 only consumes 50 watts and you place both of these pumps in identicel sumps; which pump will heat the water more? Isn't the answer obvious? The pump that is more efficient will introduce less heat into the water. In other words more energy is being converted into water movement and not heat.

Bean

[superswimmer]

Thanks alot. Now i don't have a drilled tank and everthing is all set up for a few years, I'm just looking to get a lot more flow for sps and to keep stuff off my liverock. Could i drill without empyting the whole tank? Or will the suction primer in my loop cause me to lose gph? Idk.. is this too much troubel should i just get a 3030 Tunze? or watever the smallest non controlable one is? Money is a issue.

[BeanAnimal]

If money is an issue then the tunze is out of the question
if space is an ussue then the tunze is out of the question
if the possible loss of your sump is not worth the trouble, then drain it before drilling. The HOB type of loop will lose a bit of flow due to the extra piping and head/suction pressures. However if it is your only reasonable choice then....

Sound like you already have all of your anwswers. You just need to weigh them.

[superswimmer]

:) Thanks

[angelfishlover]

I run a mag 9.5 for my 80 gallon reef and it works fine. I have no temp. problems when running internally.

[RustySnail]

Why would Danner reccommend not using their product in an external application? Dont they all have threaded fittings? If it were a cooling issue then they would not place threads on the inlet/outlet. I am running a Mag 18 on closed loop; it's whisper quiet; much quieter than an Iwaki WMD-40. Great circulation or skimmer pump IMHO...

If you have 2 pumps that are both rated at 500gph@4ft head but pump #1 consumes 100 watts and pump #2 only consumes 50 watts and you place both of these pumps in identicel sumps...

Hmm I think you would be hard pressed to find a submersible powerhead that draws 1/2 the power of a Mag (with equivalent flow properties). There is a significant amount of loss in any powerhead to heat; some are a little better than others but not by 2x.

In other words more energy is being converted into water movement and not heat.

Water movement is also "heat". It may not seem so, but moving water has kinetic energy; and as the water slows/settles due to viscous friction forces it becomes warmer. If it's agitating the surface you willl get evaporative cooling; which will tend to reduce this effect, but in an A/B comparison of pumps moving 500gph they both will add approx the same amount of energy/heat.

[Daemonfly]

With external setups, they can develop a small leak around the o-ring, although it doesn't happen too often at all. In most cases, I beleive this to be user-error if they open the pump up for anything and aren't too carefull reassembling.

I use either a Mag3 or Mag5(can't remember) in my watercooled computer and it's been running fine for ~3 years, being started at least 1-2 times a day (I don't leave PC on).

[tekknoschtev]

Well, we have a Mag 24, and while I am a fan of it, it is a tad bit on the noisy side. It, alone, doesnt add a significant amount of heat (in sump) to our 150's system. We're still setting it up, and switching to a Mag 9.5 for noise, and size issues. The 24 is WAYYYYYYY to much flow for our overflow. I love it though, because with some 1.5" flexible hosing - for pools and the like - it can suck my sump dry in about 10 seconds.

I agree with what others are saying about heat, everything can and will add heat to the water, some just moreso with others. Ours added maybe 1-2 degrees to the water, at best, however, we have it t-ed off with a ball valve on the t so we dont put back pressure on it to slow the flow back to the tank down; some just use a ball valve right off the out flow, and that will cause it to run warmer.

So other than the noise on the larger pumps, I am a big fan of the mag drives.

[BeanAnimal]

Rusty I think you missed the entire point.... I mean the entire point.

Firstly the numbers are imaginary...They were used to illustrate a concept. Secondly, it does not matter if water movement is energy (you actually go a step further top illustrate MY point). If both pumps pump the same amount of water but one draws more current, it is less efficient. The less efficient pump creates more heat. It is absurd to beleive that any pump that pushed 500 gph will add the same amount of heat. The question is the efficiency of the pump, not simply how much water it moves.

The heat introduced to the water in the form of kinetic energy may be the same for both pumps. The heat introduced from friction and the motor windings will differ. AGAIN this corrolates directly to the efficiency of the pumps in question. I can build you a pump that draws 900 watts and only pumps 500 gallons. The kinetic energy (in theory) input to the system would be the same as the 50 and 100 watt pump. However the direct heat input from conduction/convection would be tremendous. Drop that puppy in the sump and watch the water boil.

Lets put this another way. Take a series of 1728 rpm shaed pole motors.

1/3 HP
1 HP
5 HP

Put the same wet end on each pump. A wet end that the smallest can turn with full cpacity. Each subsuquently larger motor will be less efficient and create more heat to move the same amount of water.

As an mechanical engineer I would surely think you understand this simple concept.


Bean

[RustySnail]

As an mechanical engineer I would surely think you understand this simple concept.

Please, let's keep the personal attacks out of it. I am a Mech E; and I took the Thermo/Fluids classes where all of the Calculus was aimed at "energy in = energy out". Lets not start splitting hairs. My comment regarding your statements were just to say that you cant be "hypothetical" about these issues (usually). It was not meant to make you angry; just wanted to keep this discussion "real".

I dont think you are going to put the same wet-end on a 1/3HP as a 1HP or 5HP; the pump/impellers are usually specific to the application. I was looking at two submersible pumps specific to the question at-hand; the Mag 9.5 vs. the Eheim 1262. These pumps have roughly the same flow properties; but the Eheim is much more efficient. It's rated to draw 28 watts while the Mag is 93 watts. So your first example is more correct than I thought; the only caveat is that you are going to pay 2.5x more (~$160) for the Eheim pump. That's way more than I would want to pay for a pump that only moves 900 gph. If you encounter heat issues related to the amount energy input by the pumps; certainly it might be worth investing in a more efficient pump like the Eheim; otherwise it's just a matter of overall energy conservation (and if it's worth paying more for the pump that is most energy efficient).

[BeanAnimal]

It was not a personal attcak in any way... .my comments were a simple observation made in reference to the contecxt of your post and field of expertise. My intnent was only to illustrate that less efficient internal pumps contribute more energy in the form of heat.

Regarding the wet ends of real world pumps: Yes they would likely have different wet ends but the principle point was illustrated. You might note that many times the same wet end will be used on several motor sizes. The larger motors actually move more water more efficiently because the let less water "slip" in the volute. You pay for the larger motor and the same wet end to pump more water under load.

I also agree that the efficiency is not the only deciding factor. I am rather sure that a much more efficienct pump could be created at a somewhat more substantial cost, but who would buy a $400+ pump that claims to use 10 watts at 900 gpm... it would be dud in the market against pumps that cost $100 at 1/4 the efficiency.

In my case silence is the deciding factor. Others may opt for the cheaper pump that heats the water more. Some of these people may end up having to pruchse a chiller to offset the heat problem, others will not.

I just traded my 9.5 for a skimmer and will be pruchasing an eheim to run my refugium. I have been told that the eheim pumps are much quieter than the mag pumps.

[gpodio]

I'm running a Mag 7 in my sump/fuge, can't say how much it is contributing to heating the water, but I can certainly say it vibrates a heck of a lot more than the Eheim pump I had before it. I've tried changing impellers but no luck, that's my only complaint. I have 4 others in use in tanks and the pond, they are very relyable but all vibrate quite a bit, I hope to change the one in the sump with an Eheim soon as it's in the living room and has rubber mouse pads wrapped around it to keep it quiet. Never tried them external myself.

Giancarlo

[Zoom]

Originally posted by RustySnail
Please, let's keep the personal attacks out of it. I am a Mech E; and I took the Thermo/Fluids classes where all of the Calculus was aimed at "energy in = energy out". Lets not start splitting hairs. My comment regarding your statements were just to say that you cant be "hypothetical" about these issues (usually). It was not meant to make you angry; just wanted to keep this discussion "real".

I dont think you are going to put the same wet-end on a 1/3HP as a 1HP or 5HP; the pump/impellers are usually specific to the application. I was looking at two submersible pumps specific to the question at-hand; the Mag 9.5 vs. the Eheim 1262. These pumps have roughly the same flow properties; but the Eheim is much more efficient. It's rated to draw 28 watts while the Mag is 93 watts. So your first example is more correct than I thought; the only caveat is that you are going to pay 2.5x more (~$160) for the Eheim pump. That's way more than I would want to pay for a pump that only moves 900 gph. If you encounter heat issues related to the amount energy input by the pumps; certainly it might be worth investing in a more efficient pump like the Eheim; otherwise it's just a matter of overall energy conservation (and if it's worth paying more for the pump that is most energy efficient).
I have the 1262 Ehiem pump and is rated for 80W .

Specifications: for the Ehiem pumps


Model # Pump

#1046 79 gph 5W
#1048 158 gph 10W
#1250 317 gph 28W
#1260 635 gph 65W
#1262 900 gph 80W

[kbmdale]

I got a mag 7 as my return pump. I have no complaints. I had to plumb it with a peice of flex hose on each side of the pump to keep the noise down (the flex dampens the vibration the pump has) but other than that good pump.

[Zoom]

I have four Mags i don't like them any more, my new Ehiem pump is quieter and use last electricity.

[RustySnail]

Originally posted by Zoom
I have the 1262 Ehiem pump and is rated for 80W
#1262 900 gph 80W

That makes much more sense; ThatFishPlace has it incorrectly spec'd at 28w :rolleyes:

As I had stated before; the efficiency of the aquarium powerheads are somewhat similar (which is what I suspected in the beginning).

I think mag-drives get a bad rap for being noisy/innefficient. IME they run quieter than the Iwaki externals; and the 9.5 is not that much more efficent than the eheim 1262 (as it turns out). Thanks for posting this Zoom. I dont know if I could justify the cost for an Eheim unless the tank were somewhere where noise would be a big bother (like in a bedroom).

JMHO/FWIW...

[golfish]

I've used 5 different Mag pumps over the years..I ran a mag 3 and mag 5 on two diff ca reactors (externally) These pumps worked flawless and needed cleaning maybe once a year, if that. The internal Mag pumps I ran (2x12's and a 7) needed to be cleaned twice a month and even then they sometimes failed to restart when the power was cut.

[Zoom]

I have one in my large tank with a reactor (internal) never a problem.
The ones I have in the 90G tank that I use calcium supplement always stops and make noise if I don't clean them every month.

[BeanAnimal]

I just ordered a an eheim to replace a mag 9.5. I will let you guys know what the difference in sound level is. The 9.5 was definatly noisy compared to the T4

Bean

[topperhutch]

I run a mag 12 on my 90, externally. I have not had any problems over the past year. I think mine has actually been on the quiet side.

[Fatboy]

I have always heard good comments about the Mag pumps and I'm actually on the process of replacing my Iwaki 40 for one of them (I'm going ti run it internally).

I still don't know if I will go with the 18 or the 24, but I would appreciate if you guys could give me recommendations about the drain sizes for these pumps. I want to put an overflow in the center of my tank, but I don't what diameter of Durso Pipe should I use for each pump. Would it be possible to run a Mag 24 with only one 2" Durso Pipe. What about the Mag 18.

All your comments will be highly appreciated.

[tekknoschtev]

I assume your tank is drilled, ours isnt... We built the "$15 PVC Overflow" (search for plans here) but it has essentially 2 1.5" drains going into a single 2" drain to the sump, and it can handle the Mag 24 at full blast at ~6 feet of head which is ~1600gph.