another auto top off question / safe backup plan

[jthnhale]

my auto top off is now a 20 gallon reservoir with a rio pump, hooked to a double float device from autotopoff.com. It works great but I'm tired of having to fill the reservoir, my tank uses 2.5-3 gallons a day.
I'd like to hook the RO line directly to the sump. this scares me though.
If I hooked double solenoid's to the float switch I have, then used a kent float valve at the end of the RO input in the sump, would this work? could I fine tune the kent float valve and autotopoff system to work together?
By the way I have a pressure storage tank for the RO/DI water so the RO filter would not be constantly running on and off. It only fills when the tank is half full.

I would also be happy if I could hook the RO line to the reservoir, anything to free me from constantly making RO water and lugging it over to my tank.

thanks

[NOLACLS]

I would like to hear these ideas too :D

[Acroholic]

Hey guys, I'm kinda taggin on this thread also. I have made an auto top off system that will pump water from my RO/DI unit directly to my top off water holding tank. I am using the kent float switch to do this. On the contrary to you though, I WANT my RO/DI unit to cycle frequently to keep from any stale water sitting in my RO/DI unit.
Then from a float switch in my sump, when needed, a dosing pump will pump pure water from my holding tank through my KalkReactor to my sump.

[cali_reef]

jthnhale

Do you want to eliminate the reservoir or do you mean to automate filling of the reservoir?

You can eliminate the reservoir since you have a pressure storage tank that will reduce the quick on-off cycling of the RO, however, do you feel comfortable filling your tank with a unlimited supply of RO water if one component of the auto top-off failed or you have a leak in your tank plumbing while you are away for a few days?

I have a 35 gallon reservoir drum for my 600 gallon system and the max evaporation rate is about 7 gallons a day in the winter. I some what automated the filling of this reservoir by using one float switch at the top of the drum and replaced the lower float switch in the dual float latching circuit with a momentary push button switch. The drum will start filling when I push the button and only if the upper float switch is close due to an empty or partially empty drum, the filling will stop once the drum is full. With this reservoir, the max amount of fresh water I can introduce into the system is 35 gallons and won’t change my salinity much in an event of a failure in the system.

[jthnhale]

hey cali,

well I'd rather not flood my tank, or the neighbor's below me ;)
I thought the combo of the two tandem solenoids leading to the kent float valve was a good combo. the dual float switch controls the solenoids opening, and as a fail safe if both solenoids ever stick open the kent float switch would prevent the sump from overflowing.
that's three layers of redundancy. I know anything can happen, but could this system fail?

the other option like you said is to have a autotop off in the reservoir, with a latching dual float set up. I'm trying to figure out which is the system that will let me sleep while away on vacation, and save me the trouble of filling. since I'm in an apartment I don't have the room for a large storage container. the reservoir has been sitting in front of the tank, that's getting old now.

[cali_reef]

Originally posted by jthnhale
hey cali,

well I'd rather not flood my tank, or the neighbor's below me ;)
I thought the combo of the two tandem solenoids leading to the kent float valve was a good combo. the dual float switch controls the solenoids opening, and as a fail safe if both solenoids ever stick open the kent float switch would prevent the sump from overflowing.
that's three layers of redundancy. I know anything can happen, but could this system fail?


Your top off system may not fail, but what if your return pump line or the tank drain line develops a leak? Your top off will continue to fill your tank with fresh water until you get home. In my case, the pump will run dry at some point and the tank will be partially filled but the salinity won't have changed much from the 35 gallons of RO water.

[NOLACLS]

Originally posted by jthnhale
hey cali,

well I'd rather not flood my tank, or the neighbor's below me ;)
I thought the combo of the two tandem solenoids leading to the kent float valve was a good combo. the dual float switch controls the solenoids opening, and as a fail safe if both solenoids ever stick open the kent float switch would prevent the sump from overflowing.
that's three layers of redundancy. I know anything can happen, but could this system fail?

the other option like you said is to have a autotop off in the reservoir, with a latching dual float set up. I'm trying to figure out which is the system that will let me sleep while away on vacation, and save me the trouble of filling. since I'm in an apartment I don't have the room for a large storage container. the reservoir has been sitting in front of the tank, that's getting old now.

Thats what I was thinking about...a couple backups. Fact is...if they all fail...your tank will not look so hot with to much fresh water in it. I really really really really hate having to top off stuff all the time. Either the tank or the drum with topoff water in it. But if you want to be 100% safe thats the only way.

Where do you get a pressurized container for the ro water?

My other problem is I think my RO storage will have to be outside...getting hot or cold with the weather. You think with only adding a few gallons of too hot or too cold of water would do any harm? Or do I have to heat and cool the topoff to 78ish too?

[jthnhale]

Originally posted by cali_reef
Your top off system may not fail, but what if your return pump line or the tank drain line develops a leak? Your top off will continue to fill your tank with fresh water until you get home. In my case, the pump will run dry at some point and the tank will be partially filled but the salinity won't have changed much from the 35 gallons of RO water.

my drain lines I'm not worried about, the return chamber is right under the drain bulkheads.
If the return line leaks then there are bigger problems aside from the tank.
I would be screwed. I doubt I could ever set up a tank in my apartment again, but I don't want to think of that. If I thought the return line could leak I'd take the tank down today. I know what your saying, I've just got to have a little faith that at least that would never happen. so far so good.

[jthnhale]

Originally posted by NOLACLS
Thats what I was thinking about...a couple backups. Fact is...if they all fail...your tank will not look so hot with to much fresh water in it. I really really really really hate having to top off stuff all the time. Either the tank or the drum with topoff water in it. But if you want to be 100% safe thats the only way.

Where do you get a pressurized container for the ro water?

My other problem is I think my RO storage will have to be outside...getting hot or cold with the weather. You think with only adding a few gallons of too hot or too cold of water would do any harm? Or do I have to heat and cool the topoff to 78ish too?

these guys are not the cheapest, but this is one place for tanks (http://www.waterfiltersonline.com/tanks.asp)

as long as the water does not freeze you should be fine.
do you ever get below freezing?
it should not effect the temp at all.

[NOLACLS]

Originally posted by jthnhale

do you ever get below freezing?


http://tinypic.com/641cmx below freezing whats that!!

Down here in south Louisiana freezing is when it stays in the low 40s for a few days! Really tho it might get close...or dip into the high 20's for an hour or two a handful of winter nights.

[jthnhale]

yeah i didn't think so.

what do you think your going to do for the top off?
I'm so over having to have a bucket next to the sink all the time,
and then having to lug it over to the tank. my girlfriend really hates doing this
when she has to take care of the tank if I'm gone.

[manderx]

when i had my RO jacked directly to my sump via float switch, i put another solenoid on my RO with a timer so it could only make so much water in a day. as a safetly backup, and it also made it so it didn't cycle on and off (which kills your DI). i also tried 2 solenoids in-line with a single float switch, but for some reason they weren't reliable with both on the same circuit. so i ran only one of them on the float. never had a problem, but have since switched to a dosing pump.

[cali_reef]

Originally posted by jthnhale
my drain lines I'm not worried about, the return chamber is right under the drain bulkheads.
If the return line leaks then there are bigger problems aside from the tank.
I would be screwed. I doubt I could ever set up a tank in my apartment again, but I don't want to think of that. If I thought the return line could leak I'd take the tank down today. I know what your saying, I've just got to have a little faith that at least that would never happen. so far so good.

This exactly my point, with a continues flow of fresh water entering the system with a leaking return line, you can have a bigger flood than the volume of your tank. Right now you have a max of 30 gallons on the floor (assuming 20 gallon full of the top off water and maybe 10 gallons of tank water) vs. 50GPD RO (or what ever your RO/DI produces) unit X the number of days before the fire department shut the water main to the building off.

Can you stash a 10 gallon tank for top off? that should last about three days in the winter and a lot longer in the summer months. You just have to press a button to fill it every few days.

NOLACLS, check out waterairice.com, I bought a RO bladder tank to use with my refrigerator for $30.

I had the same top-off set up in Los Angeles and the outdoor temp does affect the water temp in the storage tank, but you are only putting a small amount of water in your sump each time it didn’t make any difference to the reef tank temp.

[jthnhale]

If I found the right shaped container I could store a larger volume.
It's hard trying to hide the top off container, it has to be pretty far from the tank, which then means trying to hide the feed line :(

I have an office right above the tank I could put a large container in, but then can I run the ro feed up about 12' and then back down to the tank?
yikes that would be a lot of plumbing to deal with.

[cali_reef]

Originally posted by jthnhale
If I found the right shaped container I could store a larger volume.
It's hard trying to hide the top off container, it has to be pretty far from the tank, which then means trying to hide the feed line :(

I have an office right above the tank I could put a large container in, but then can I run the ro feed up about 12' and then back down to the tank?
yikes that would be a lot of plumbing to deal with.

Jonathan, I use 1/4 inch poly lines, you can get them at HD in 25' length and they are very flexible and easy to hide. The city water pressure after the RO\DI should still be good enough to push the water up one more floor; I am doing the same feeding my refrigerator with all my RO/DI units in the basement. Coming back down is easy, gravity will do all the work for you.

[cali_reef]

Originally posted by jthnhale
If I found the right shaped container I could store a larger volume.


IMO You don't want a reservoir larger than the 10% of your total system volume, that will dilute your tank water too much if the float switch or the solenoid valve fails.

Can you get your tank caretaker to push a button when the reservoir is below a certain level?

[NOLACLS]

Cali reef I like your idea of hitting a button to fill the reservoir if I dont directly link it....

You have any pics of your setup?

[jthnhale]

for some reason the pressure in my kitchen where the ro is hooked to is low, it's high everywhere else in the apt, which is annoying.
I'm going to get a permeate pump, and a booster pump to help the filter along.
I guess is won't be hard for it to go up one more floor, then down.

Hitting one button sounds like a good compromise, I'm a little fuzzy how you hook up the push button, how does it start and keep the water flowing?

[cali_reef]

Here are wiring diagrams for the latching circuit:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/14095relay_wiring.gif
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/14095Relay_schematic.gif

And the thread:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=280291

Replace the lower float switch with a momentary push button switch for use in top-water container to manual start the filling, water will shut off once filled.

NOLACLS, No pictures of the switch box and I don't think a picture will help much. Read the thread above, it has everything you need to know.

[justin-branam]

im about to somewhat automate mine as well. i am going to run a line from my RODI holding tank to my refill bucket. i will be putting a ball valve in-line. then have the line running to a float switch in my refill bucket. i can open the ball valve to refill my bucket. then come back a little later to shut it off. you can put the ball valve in an easily accessable location to make refills easy. kind of like the previous mention puch switch method, but im to cheap to do that. a ball valve will work just fine for me.

[jthnhale]

schematics make my head hurt,
thanks for the info.
the ball valve/float valve is a good option for the electrically inept, like myself. :D

[NOLACLS]

Thanks cali...I will have a look at that thread!

[jthnhale]

well my topoff failed halfway yesterday. I say halfway because the top shut off switch worked and saved the day.
I moved the top off aparatus about 15" to make room for a resevoir in the sump.
at some point in the afternoon the bottom float STUCK and pumped about a third of the container into the sump.
what would cause it to do this? I had cleaned it just the other week, and there was nothing stuck inside it. :furious:

[cali_reef]

Those reed type switches is not the most reliable.

Redundancy is your friend in reef automation…

[jthnhale]

well I'm going to have to try the dual floats again, I'm not sure how else to get the water from the reservoir into the sump.
I'm thinking of the gravity reservoir system like Jeff Brigg's did, but that might take me a while to set up.

[BeanAnimal]

lets look at this from a reliability standpoint.

If you rely on a single float, it may fail. If you double the number of floats (2) for the same switch. The chances of failure are about the same but you cut in half the chance of disaster due to a single failre.

Many of you argue that hte number of components increases the complexity and therefore the failure rate. To an extent this is true. BUT if properly designed, the addition of redundant components can almost elimiates the chances of catastrophic failure.

I would use 2 floats for each "level" These could be in series or hooked to to seperate logic relays (latches) that are wired in series.

I would also add conditonal floats for high and low sump levels that would act as failsafes in the event that the latching circuits failed. 6 float switches and a few relays is enough to build a fairly robust system. The addition of a mechanical float valve at the high water mark is an added failsafe to prevent disaster of all else fails.

You can use a similar system for your resevoir. A timed latch can be used to prevent multiple resevoir cycles without user intervention.



Bean

[jthnhale]

Hi Bean,
thanks for the advice,

I read that engineer's like to build three levels of redundancy into equipment that is critical. My RO and sump are not going to save any lives, but they would make life miserable if they failed.

would you consider the following a "robust" system.
a reservoir fed from the RO/DI {edit}presure holding tank directly, first a double float switch with a latching mechanism for filling the reservoir when the bottom float is activated. connected to two solenoids in line which lead to a mechanical float valve in the reservoir.

to move the water into the sump, a double float switch in the sump as I mentioned before hooked to a pump in the reservoir which feeds the sump via a line ending in another mechanical float switch.