To get some better water... (longish)

[dmorel]

I am thinking I want to do a few water changes with some water that is not tap water (which I have been using for about a year now) I have been testing my water regularly the whole time and I my phosphates have always been pretty high.
I received some advice back when I was getting started to "not worry about it" unless the tank showed symptoms.

While I don't have "many" problems I do notice that the torch I just brought back from brad's (a beautiful frag of todd's green torch) is not extended very far. The flow rate for it is moderate to low and the lighting is excellent (I LOVE those MH's!).
Everything except phosphate is testing very nicely:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: > .10
PH: 8.0 (I know this might be a little low, but it has been steady at 8.0 since day one, I figure better to keep it a tad low and always the same then risk trying to bring it up and fluctuate all over the place)
Calcium: >400
phosphate: a whopping 1.0....

I moved the snapper out the reef about a week ago, so I have been able to cut WAY down on feedings, but I truly believe the issue is with the tap water anyway.
I tried some phosphate absorb product from CB, but no luck, I think I just have too much for something like that to deal with.


Why no ro/do unit you ask?

I rent.
I will find out in the next month or two if we are buying this place or moving... then I can install something.

For now can I just get some bottled water somewhere?
I have read posts that have mentioned people getting water from their lfs, or "water store" do we have any place in the area I might want to look? I want to do a few water changes and make sure I am right about this.

Thanks,
-david

[cperson]

Dave,

I used to use tap water but now use RO/DI. I noticed a difference. Todd and Brad use tap water and have had good results. I have Monroe County water, Brad and Todd have City of Rochester water (better quality?)

I get RO/DI water from Caribbean Forest for $0.50 per gallon. You can but the 6 gallon water jugs they have there or get less expensive ones somewhere else. If you buy the jugs there you get a free first fill-up.

I use about 4 gallons per week for top-off and I do a 3-4 gallon water change every weekend, so my total water cost is about $4.00 per week. I have 3 containers and fill up every 2 weeks, so it's not too inconvenient.

I did a calculation and it would cost me more to buy and maintain (cartridges are expensive!) an RO/DI system with the amount of water I use.

I too have a torch (and frogspawn and polyps) from Brad, got 'em the day after you were there. Mine were open within hours after I put them in my tank. I know I have good water conditions. My phosphates are 0.5ppm or less. I use carbon all the time, which really helps water clarity.

I would try RO/DI and run carbon if you don't already. I don't believe phosphates have any adverse affect except promote algae growth, at least at low levels like below 2 or 3 ppm.

-Craig

[dmorel]

Craig,
thanks for the reply.
I just got a better phosphate test kit, so I should have a more accurate idea of what I have phosphate wise.

The torch looks a lot better today, I tried a few different places in the tank and it seems to be responding well to where it is today, so maybe I was just not correct on where I thought it wanted to be.

I am out in bushnells basin, not sure if this is city water or not.
I also picked up a different type of phosphate sponge from john at marine oasis today, so I will see if that helps.
Everything in my tank seems to be doing pretty well over the long haul.

I will wait a week or so and see how things go and if I don't see any good results, I will try some water from CB.
-david

[Chucker]

Something else to consider...... The cost of RO will vary in the long run depending on whether you rent or own. I happen to rent right now, so my water is free. People who own their home and pay a water bill have to look at a higher long-term cost, as RO rejects 80% of the water you run through it.

This water isn't bad , but it has that kind of connotation since it comes off of the reject line. It actually is pretty good- it has already been run through a prefilter and carbon. The key is find creative ways to collect and reuse the rejected water. I personally use it to refill my Brita and water plants. Other ways to reduce the net waste of RO water can include topping off your pool or hot tub, watering the lawn/garden/trees outside, using the water in a humdifier (for dry homes), cooking pasta, etc.

One last thing to think about- if you buy your water, be sure to check the quality. Many retail outfits are lax about replacing prefilters, carbon, RO membranes, and DI resins. As always, caveat emptor!

[Gary Majchrzak]

dmorel-You have new MH lighting and I think you will find out pretty quick if your current levels of phosphates are acceptable-;)

[drtango]

I used to use a Kold Steril unit (from the polyfilter people) when we had well water--actually worked very well, gives you water on demand. A little pricey though.

Tap water purifier also works, reefs.org has a recharge instruction sheet if you're chemically enabled and brave. Cheap, hooks to your faucet, might give you 50-100 gallons before it exhausts.

I've used a product called PO4 minus, which somehow gets your skimmer to export more phosphate--works incrediby well as advertised. Its imported by the Monolith Marine people and Jason at Premium Aquatics carries it. Might be the cheapest long term option if phosphate is your only concern.

JT

[ReeferMac]

Hey Dave,

I used my RO/DI unit in an apartment, they make faucet adapters. You just need an understanding spouse/SO is all :-)

You're welcome to some of my water if you want. You just have to supply the jugs and transport it yourself :-)

The Halide's will start showing algae if you got problems, just wait and see! The TWP's are expensive... while I never tried refilling them, I usually only got 30 gallons out of one. That's about a week's Top off for me, so needless to say, they didn't last long. The Waste water issue wasn't bad for me either. I was a little nervous, as we just got the house this summer. First water bill came for the past quarter (included the moving of the tanks, watering the **** out of the lawn, and many many water changes (not to mention my 30 gallons of top off a week), and the bill was only $125 I think... wasn't bad at all (though it is an added expense if you're not prepared). I was afraid with all the water I was sending down the sump, that I would have to pay a couple hundred. This Spring I hope to do some creative things with the waste line and make better use of it.

- Mac

[ToddsReef]

Dave,
You can contact big brother (not sure who...maybe the water commission...Playfair knows) and they will be able to tell you what is in your tap-water. I have used tap for about a year without trouble but I definitely wouldn't recommend it until you find out what is in it. Glad to hear you like your halides :)
Todd

[ReeferMac]

There's a webpage with that info somewhere's... no link handy. Do a search of the reefkeeper's mailing list over on topica, and it should come up. Jimmy Chen posted a link 6-9 months ago, and I checked it - shows Monroe county and Roch. City water.

- Mac

[dmorel]

An update if anyone is interested:

With the new lights I am definately seeing a little more algea on the glass, have to get that magnet moving every two days to keep it clean.

My new test kit (a red sea phospahte kit) measured phosphates around .3-.5 it was kind of hard to tell, this is down from 1.0 which my other kit was measuring.
I will be doing a 20 gal water change today, as well as using the new phosphate remover for another week and see what things look like next week.

The torch I mentioned seems to be doing MUCH better.
I am linking in a pic from a few days ago (my cam sucks!!!) you can see it up front looking pretty sad. It was looking WAY better yesterday, seems to be finding its stride now.

http://morelweb.com/2_4_2.jpg

Thanks for the offers for water. I will pick some up at CF if I decide to try using something other then tap for a few weeks, and I do have an "extra" sink I could use if I got a unit myself that was not installed permenatly. So that is an option I guess.

-david

[ToddsReef]

Dave,
If you are only looking to use RO/DI for the short term I have an RO/DI system that you are welcome to borrow (has a connecter that will hook to the kitchen sink). Let me know. BTW, nice pic.
Todd

[Chucker]

dmorel, not sure what size tank you have, but from the pic I'm assuming it's someplace over the 55g range. With that in mind you may want to consider a larger water change than 20g. The la2w of diminishing returns kicks in rapidly on small changes. I'd suggest taking a peek at this article (http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_brightbill_wc.html) for some good info on changes.

[dmorel]

Chucker,
I actually did a change ~35 gals this morning.
The tank is a 90 with a 20g long sump that adds about 12 more gallons.
I changed out 4 5gal buckets and 2 old salt buckets that are more then 5 but I don't know what they are. (Now let's see which one of you guys reports this first because I am sure that one of you knows exactly how much water each bucket holds, for that matter I bet a few of you know that instant ocean buckets hold 4 ounces more water then reef crystals buckets or something like that...)

Anyway, I will check on the phosphate later in the week and see how it's doing using the new seachem phosGuard.

Todd,
thanks for the offer, if the phosphate stays high, I will probably take you up on that, just to see what kind of reduction I can make doing a couple of water changes with "good" water.
In the meantime, I am also going to up my lighting on the sump to try and get the macro algae and mangroves to jump start a little bit, and I am thinking one thing my system could use is a better return pump from the sump, the flow rate right now is very low...
...and I sense the sarcasm in your post when you say nice pic! I will have to take some with the real camera instead of this crappy mavica and scan them in, it actually is a relatively pretty tank (albeit nothing like yours, playfairs, kevins...oh this could go on a while, forget it...)
Ugh, I am rambling again. Sorry.
-david

[ReeferMac]

I'm guessing 10 gallons on the buckets.. Takes about 6-7 trips to the sink to do a water change when I fill the Trash can all the way up.

- Mac

[cperson]

A Reef Crystals bucket holds just over 6 if filled to the top. The typical "5-gallon" or "50 lbs'" bucket, like a joint compound bucket, does hold 5 gallons if you fill it to the rim. Of course you can't move it without spilling, so practically it holds less then 5 gallons.

What I did was mark off 1 through 5 gallon lines on a Reef Crystals bucket to mix water for my water changes. I used a gallon milk container filled to the bottom of the neck (like it is when you get milk from the store). I'm pretty confident this is 128 oz., since it's sold by volume and the bottlers have incentive to fill them accurately. Even if the measurement is off by an ounce it's within a 1% tolerance.

-Craig

[clueless]

hey guys what's going on I just wanted to let you know that if you go to waterdata.com you can look up Monroe county from that page. I personally have been using tap water since the start of my tank and only had one major alage issue.

[Chucker]

FWIW, the direct link to the water quality info for Monroe County can be found here (http://www.mcwa.com/watqlsum.htm) .

Interesting to note that there are no results listed for phosphorus, which is the limiting nutrient in most aquatic systems, and also is usually the number one cause of algae blooms in our tanks. Two other things to consider- most of the compounds that are tested for vary seasonally, and the data listed is still from 2000.

[dmorel]

Craig,
way to be the guy with the answer!


I am now inclined to agree that the tap water is not the major source of phosphate in my system.

I am currently measuring about .2 way down from 1.0 of two weeks ago.

There have been a variety of changes that could have contributed to that reduction:

I am feeding WAY less now that the snapper is moved out to the FO (picked up a little naso yesterday though! what a beautiful fish) I am also using the phosphate reducer in the sump.

I picked up a 2x32 pc light kit for the sump to try and get that algae kicked into gear. I am looking for kevin like growth.
The mangrove is also doing very well.

Got a little more flow going on now that I swapped out the return pump too.

No question that the MH lighting is increasing the algae growth, I have to get that magnet cleaner going every other day right now.
I am hoping this will start to fall off too as the phosphate continues to drop (hopefully to nearly nothing).

I will test some plain ol tap water one of these nights and report what kind of measurement I get from that.

Can't believe I haven't done that by now....

-david

[cperson]

Dave,
I'd be careful about a growth that's Kevin-like. Maybe you should have a physician look at it. Calling Dr. Whitman, Dr. Cashion, Dr. Richardson!!!:eek:

[dmorel]

Originally posted by cperson
Dave,
I'd be careful about a growth that's Kevin-like. Maybe you should have a physician look at it. Calling Dr. Whitman, Dr. Cashion, Dr. Richardson!!!:eek:

I am not sure what kevin did to deserve that slam...
Ah who cares it sure was funny :)

[ReeferMac]

You know for an Irish guy my growth is actually rather impressive...

:eek1:

But seriously, with that Chetomorpha stuff (or whatever it's called), the intensity of light seems to affect it's growth. Ironically enough, super bright light (halides) seems to make it grow long and stringy. Intense Floursecent lighting (VHO's and PC's), that I've seen it grow under, seem to make it nice, tight, and compact. The area that grows underneath my overflow box, and in the lower portions of my refugium, get a similar, tight, spiraled shape... the stuff out in the open however... gets all long and stringy, bubbly too, gives off lots gas (leave that one along, Craig :D), rises to the top of the tank, gets burned by the lights... Then it fills in the area underneath, the crust-like canopy. Very strange to watch. Like it's almost planning the whole orchestration. It defintely doesn't do too well under the really bright, intense lighting, tho.

That being said, I think it will grow great under PC's... I'd get either 7200K lights, or at least one of those "Twin tube" blue and white actinics. It does seem to like the actinic lighting. Todd's got a huge wad of it (last time I was over there), in his small tank, that keeps to a nice, tight bunch.

- Mac

[dmorel]

Originally posted by ReeferMac

That being said, I think it will grow great under PC's... I'd get either 7200K lights, or at least one of those "Twin tube" blue and white actinics. It does seem to like the actinic lighting. Todd's got a huge wad of it (last time I was over there), in his small tank, that keeps to a nice, tight bunch.

- Mac

Of course I got 10K's....

I'll let you know how they work.

See how I am just trying to let the whole *growth* thing die. (oops)

[Gary Majchrzak]

Just thought I'd let you know the Chaetomorpha "brillo pad"algae grows great in my sump with a $7 gro-light from Wegmans...

[dmorel]

I tried using a regular grow light (mine was from home depot, but I bet it was the same one)
and the algea while not wasting away, was not really growing.
My time frame was about two months and it looked about the same as when I put it in there.
So I am going to give the PCs a shot....

-david