PH low... its high C02! Macroalgea?

[platax88]

OK... So here is my water chemistry on my 55:

Alk - 10dkh
Ca - 440 ppm
Nitrate - 0
ph - 7.8 <--------------
Temp - 79
Salinity - 1.024


After doing much research, i think i am having this constant low ph because high C02 levels in the home. (The house is always sealed tight!) I am going to try the air stone test, but i have a feeling that this is the problem.

I know that dosing Kalk will bring up PH, but i am extremely happy with b-ionic and finding the right amounts to keep the tank contant.

Here is my question: I have a refugium, lit 24/7 but not much macroalgea in there. Do you think if i add a massive amount of algea, it will do to consume the C02 and convert to O2?

I know that this can be fixed by opening a window, but living in Florida, the last thing i want to do is let heat into the house and bump up my electric bill.

I have read to try running tubing from outside into my skimmer, but the distance to the nearest window is 15' and i doubt the skimmer will be able to "suck" in air from that far...

Please help!

[SaltyPugs]

You could just dose a PH buffer such as Seachem's Marine Buffer.

[platax88]

I don't think that's a great idea... It will only be a temporary fix and make alk skyrocket... Am I wrong?

[dhoch]

What size is your refugium?

I have found that it takes a pretty large refugium to keep Ph/O2 saturation up. (i.e. same size as tank)

Also what is your Ph swing... The more I understand about Ph before I suggest solutions I want to know what is the Ph swing.

To measure this, measure Ph right before lights on (usually the time of the lowest Ph), then measure right before your first set of lights go out (assuming you have multiple sets of lights i.e. MH & VHO, right before the MH go out... This should be the time of highest Ph)

Understanding the swing will help you understand what is going on.

I don't like to add buffers they are really not a solution to your problem... and not a great fix to Ph problems.

Just FYI the B-Ionic alk can raise Ph as well.

Dave

[collins]

I am having the same problem as you even with a substantial amount of macro algae in my fuge. I am going to start dripping kalk to deplete the CO2.

good luck

[dhoch]

Again... What is the Ph swing... when are you measuring...

Once I understood this on my tank, it really helped solve my Ph issues.

Dave

[copps]

You're right on regarding the buffer platax...

Are you suffering any known side effects of the low pH? I've been in the hobby a long time and always thought that low pH itself was overrated. Check out my system that was featured TOTM here (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/totm/index.htm) . That system was in our old apartment and had the same problem. I just let it be happy, running from as low as 7.7 to 8.1 and you'll see that it was packed with sps. In my opinion low pH is sometimes a side effect of another problem, yet if just due to improper ventilation in the house it's no big deal.

My recommendation if you want to solve it would be to hook up a Nilsen (or kalk) reactor with your topoff. They are low cost and are well worth the money considering your time invested in topping off. You'll also save on B-ionic as kalk is much cheaper. I don't think adding algae will have any significant effect, as I've never noticed a difference. Another option would be to use the slurry method with kalk powder after the lights go off, but this would only cover you for a few hours... Honestly... I wouldn't worry about it... I've used Pinpoint meters for years, and many of the people who think they have a pH of 8 and above don't see the natural swings of their tank... 7.8 is nothing, and that's speaking first hand with years of experience... many people with say it's a problem, yet when asked if they've experienced it firsthand they'll say no... but they've read it:D

[dhoch]

John,

That's interesting... I can't say that I noticed effects of high or low Ph, I do know thought that when I got my swing down to .2 or less that my corals have seen improved growth (it could be due to other factors that happened at the same time... different bulbs, lighting schedule, etc).

Dave

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Macroalgae will help reduce CO2 when lit (but not when dark). It can increase it when it is not lit.

Whether it is enough to solve a problem depends on how severe the excess CO2 problem is to begin with.

This article may help:


Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

from it, here are my comments about acceptable pH ranges:

"What is the Acceptable pH Range for Reef Aquaria?

The acceptable pH range for reef aquaria is an opinion rather than a clearly defined fact, and will certainly vary based on who is providing the opinion. This range may also be quite different from the "optimal" range. Justifying what is optimal, however, is much more problematic than that which is simply acceptable. As a goal, I'd suggest that the pH of natural seawater, about 8.2, is appropriate, but reef aquaria can clearly operate in a wider range of pH values. In my opinion, the pH range from 7.8 to 8.5 is an acceptable range for reef aquaria, with several caveats. These are:

1. That the alkalinity is at least 2.5 meq/L, and preferably higher at the lower end of this pH range. This statement is based partly on the fact that many reef aquaria operate quite effectively in the pH 7.8 to 8.0 range, but that most of the best examples of these types of tanks incorporate calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors that, while tending to lower the pH, keep the carbonate alkalinity fairly high (at or above 3 meq/L.). In this case, any problems associated with calcification at these lower pH values may be offset by the higher alkalinity. Low pH primarily stresses calcifying organisms by making it harder for them to obtain sufficient carbonate to deposit skeletons. Raising the alkalinity mitigates this difficulty for reasons that are detailed later in this article.

2. That the calcium level is at least 400 ppm. Calcification becomes more difficult as the pH is lowered, and it also becomes more difficult as the calcium level is lowered. It would not be desirable to push all of the extremes of pH, alkalinity, and calcium at the same time. So if the pH is on the low side and cannot be easily changed (such as in an aquarium with a CaCO3/CO2 reactor), at least make sure that the calcium level is acceptable (~400-450 ppm). Likewise, one of the problems at higher pH (above 8.2, but getting progressively more problematic with each incremental rise) is the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate, resulting in a drop in calcium and alkalinity, and the clogging of heaters and pump impellers. If the aquarium pH is 8.4 or higher (as often happens in a tank using limewater), then it is especially important that both the calcium and alkalinity levels are suitably maintained (that is, neither too low, inhibiting biological calcification, nor too high, causing excessive abiotic precipitation on equipment). "

[copps]

I will say that swing is important. I've always gone by Calfo's recommendations regarding pH swings and have never seen ill effects... (an instant swing of .2 is acceptable... .4 over the course of a day). If you're swinging from 7.8 to 8.5 you have a problem, but 7.8 to 8.1 or 8.1 to 8.5 I wouldn't worry about. Again I think as long as you know the cause you're okay. Many symptoms that bring down pH also bring down water quality... a sealed house doesn't though...

It was amazing though in that apartment... I'd open the deck door and I could literally see the pH start creeping up on my tanks...

[copps]

Interesting Randy as I just read your response... I guess coincidence that that article was from the same Reefkeeping issue as my low pH system . On top of the unaerated apartment, that system had a cranked calcium reactor, offset somewhat by my kalk reactor... When the kalk reactor needed refilling I would be almost at 7.7 on the low end...

[copps]

DP

[platax88]

I have a feeling that it's definately a C02 issue... We live in a small town house and have two dogs... that run like maniacs all day long!

I will open the windows for a few hours and retest to see if it goes up. If so, I will ventilate the house every two days by leaving the windows open for a few hours... and start dosing kalk instead of b-ionic.

Do you think this sort of ventilation will be enough to keep c02 down?

I'm sure ventilating its a good thing for our health too!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you think this sort of ventilation will be enough to keep c02 down?

It will probably rise back fairly fast when closed up. That's one advantage that those of us in leaky old houses have: no CO2 buildup. :D

[impur]

I also had a low pH for awhile, sometimes down to 7.6 or so. Mostly is was 7.8-8.2. I never saw any negative effects from it and it ran at that level for at least 2 months. Still had great growth in SPS and LPS. I recently setup a kalk drip with a peristaltic pump. Now i have a pH of 8.0-8.4. Everything still looks great and i don't have to dose b-ionic as much. I still have to dose it twice a week tho :(

[dhoch]

impur,

Yeah my peristalic pump is the best purchase I have made... Once I got it dialed in I just replace whatever I am dosing (kalk at night, baking soda/RO/DI during the day).

I also add some turbo calcium water once a day as well.

I think you might consider swtiching from the b-ionic 2 part to the turbo calcium & baking soda regime... It does a great job at suplimenting and is cheaper than b-ionic (I know I was using that for a while).

Dave

[wld1783]

I have low Ph as well (7.8-8.0). I use a large calcium reacor (18Lbs), Kalk reactor and reef builder with turbo calcium just to keep up.

At first I was worried but tested the water with an airstone outside and after a while the Ph went up to 8.2. My low Ph is due to high CO2 in the house. A open window doesn't help.

I could pump more outside air into the system but I already have a huge skimmer and since everything is growing well...Maybe too well I'll just leave things alone.

If its not broke don't fix it

Bill

[impur]

Originally posted by dhoch
impur,

Yeah my peristalic pump is the best purchase I have made... Once I got it dialed in I just replace whatever I am dosing (kalk at night, baking soda/RO/DI during the day).

I also add some turbo calcium water once a day as well.

I think you might consider swtiching from the b-ionic 2 part to the turbo calcium & baking soda regime... It does a great job at suplimenting and is cheaper than b-ionic (I know I was using that for a while).

Dave

One step ahead of ya! I am already using baking soda for alk since i depleted that first. I still have half the bottle of calcium so i'll just finish that off and go with something cheaper. I do agree that the peristaltic pump was a great purchase. Aside from my auto topoff, it has been the best thing i've added to my tank.

Miles

[platax88]

ok... did the air bubble test outside and got a reading of 8.4! Left windows open for a few hours with no change of ph on the main tank. I will start dosing kalk tomorrow. How long do you guys think it will take the kalk to raise from 7.8 to 8.3 +?

Is there a way to automate kalk dosing with my Ro hooked up on a float switch?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Whatever effect the limewater will have will be complete in a couple of days of dosing. :)

Is there a way to automate kalk dosing with my Ro hooked up on a float switch?


I dose automatically from a 44-gallon trash can full of limewater. I use a slow pump and a float switch.

[platax88]

Yes, but how do i know when to replenish kalk in that container, if the ro automatically feeds it with fresh water? I have seen some of these kalk reactors, and i cannot understand at what point they add more kalk? ... Is it possible to add too much kalk, or will the water just saturate to a certain level it can hold?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't have it automatically refill, and don't think that optimal. That would make it more like a big Nilsen reactor, and you'd have to worry about stirring, etc.

[platax88]

Yeah i have done some research on reactors... And i think i can easily make one out of an old Red Sea Berlin Skimmer, and a small pump on a timer, that i am not using... this will be fed by the auto top off RO water.

But my question is still... how do i know when and how much kalk to add to this chamber?

Let me take a moment to thank all you guys for all your help... i was awestruck to see ph of 8.4 with the airstone test!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But my question is still... how do i know when and how much kalk to add to this chamber?

Folks add solid and always keep solids in it. How much depends on the design.

You can monitor the potency of the effluent by conductivity, if you like. :)

[platax88]

So pretty much the potency is not much of a conscern? To much will not raise alk or ca... just stabilize it right? And as for PH... If dripped slowly it will not raise past a safe point.

What about meassuring with a TDS meter?

[impur]

TDS meter is for measuring Total Dissolved Solids in the water. If you use a RO/DI system you should have 0. TDS is a different animal than pH, CO2, alk and calcium.

[platax88]

yeah... i know... just thought there was a way to measure disolved kalk with a dts. stupid question i guess :(

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So pretty much the potency is not much of a conscern?

On the contrary, that is one reason I do not care for Nilsen reactors: many do not maximize the potency (e.g, saturate the effluent).

All such reactors have excess solids in them.

Conductivity is the best way to measure the potency of the effluent. If you have a TDS meter (which is a conductivity meter in disguise)that reads high enough, that is fine, but most do not).

To much will not raise alk or ca... just stabilize it right?

Too much added to the tank will boost pH, but usually is not able to push calcium or alkalinity too high as a variety of processes kick in that bring the values back down (higher coral growth, more abiotic precipitation of CaCO3, etc).

[platax88]

so its save to say that i can add a bunch in the reactor and once i see that its depleting add more?

I read that i can check the ph of the out water and if below 11 i should add more kalk.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I read that i can check the ph of the out water and if below 11 i should add more kalk.

Yes, but by the time the pH drops to 11, you've lost a factor of 32X in potency, or 3% of potency at saturation. A drop of 0.3 pH units is a factor of 2 in potency.

so its save to say that i can add a bunch in the reactor and once i see that its depleting add more?

Yes, although after a while there will be solids there that are no longer calcium hydroxide waiting to dissolve, but other insoluble things.

[platax88]

ok... so i'll add a bunch... and add more as needed. I guess i should give it a cleaning to rid it of the "no good" often.

What should the PH read at max saturation of the kalk?

[impur]

12 i believe.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Saturation at 25 deg C is pH 12.54, but do not rely on normal calibration to accurately measure that. Compare it directly to a saturated solution that you make yourself (say, 1 teaspoon lime in a cup of RO/DI water).

This article has a lot more info on limewater:

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

[platax88]

Can't thank you enough Randy... I'll keep you posted!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Good luck. :)

[platax88]

I have been dripping 1 gallon of kalk for the last two days and my PH has gone up to 8.3!!! My alk is at 10 dkh and Cal at 440 ppm!!!

I see instant improvement in the tank. I did not even know that some of my corals could open so big!

Kalk kicks ***! I can't believe i was scared to use it. This weekend i am making a kalk reactor... estimated cost will be $10!

Also getting a pinpoint PH monitor, so i can get more accurate readings, than matching color tests.

[dhoch]

platax88,

My recomendation... Get a peristalic pump... Yeah its $100 + piece of equipment, but it is so much easier to use than the DIY kalk reactor (and you don't have to worry about setting drip rate, or the end of the dripper (restrictor) comming off and over dosing with kalk))

Dave

[platax88]

Yeah, That i have an auto top-off system that allows flow to the RO filter when the level drops in the sump.

I am plumbing the Reactor in-line with the RO filter. That way i don't worry about dripping at all. Just add more Kalk when needed.

[impur]

Originally posted by dhoch
platax88,

My recomendation... Get a peristalic pump... Yeah its $100 + piece of equipment, but it is so much easier to use than the DIY kalk reactor (and you don't have to worry about setting drip rate, or the end of the dripper (restrictor) comming off and over dosing with kalk))

Dave

$100? I paid 30 bucks for mine, and although i didn't need it, picked up an additional pump set for 10. It is definately the way to go, set it and leave it. Only thing to remember is to make more kalk once its all gone, but you have to do that with a kalk reactor too. Check ebay.

[dhoch]

Dang... WHere id you get yours.

I looked on ebay... and couldn't find a variable one cheaper than $100.

Dave

[platax88]

So my idea of running it off the RO is no good?

Just to recap :)

Float switch opens solenoid valve when level drops, Which lets water pass through the RO into the Kalk reactor and then into sump.

The sump is very small (<10 gal), therefore the float switch drops at a small amount of evap. Think this is good because not too much kalk gets release at one time.

Please advice on this ...

[dhoch]

Having had float switches malfunction in the past... I'm not a big fan of them.


Just my 2 cents.

[impur]

Originally posted by dhoch
Dang... WHere id you get yours.

I looked on ebay... and couldn't find a variable one cheaper than $100.

Dave

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20755&item=4353915584&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

$45 now still a good deal.