LFS support - where do you draw the line?

[rsteagall]

Just curious and a question to the masses... Where do you draw the line when buying stuff from the LFS?

I've bought a couple of "gotta have it now" things from the LFS and realized the extra money I was spending. The last thing I tried to buy from the LFS was a 96w 10k daylight. They wanted ~$60+tax for it. I got the same light from hellolights.com for $29.95 (under $40 when all said and done). I mean... WOW. MH are also about the same story.... $125 at the lfs and like $65 at hellolights.com. Its more than just lights too.

I totally understand supporting the LFS, but when #1 (you) get spanked with a 200% profit margin one must always consider alternatives. I don't know about pet stores and realize their profit margins may need to be more on certain things, but I know that most retail business can survive fine on a 25%-30% profit margin. I worked at a mom and pop computer store for about 5 years and that was our margin on custom builds.

Anyone else have similar experiences?

[musicman]

The other thing about the critter vs online stores is the markup THEY have to pay from distributors. (sometimes more than one for the same product) The larger online stores can buy direct from the mfg because of their quantities, whereas the critter and the like have to go through distributors. I have worked at a mom & pop guitar shop which kind of has the same purchasing problems, so I know what they go through. Places like musicians' friend (huge instrument e-tailer) can buy and then SELL some things cheaper than Corner Music (my old store) could even buy them for.

Now I'm a manufacturer's rep and distributor of high end home theater equipment. It's a different business than fish, but the economic principles behind them are the same. I deal with some chains that buy millions of dollars of product a year, and also small single stores that buy 20 receivers a year. The chain can get a unit at say $200 where the independent has to pay $235 for it. The costs are justified from a business stand-point, but it still doesn't always seem fair.

It all comes down to convenience, service, and support. What do you want to pay for?

[Nashvegas]

I also relive this dilemma everytime I stop by AC or Fins or Emerald Bay. I try to practice using the internet for big purchases..like skimmers, pumps, etc. I mostly use LFS for water refills and if I see an unusual rock or piece of coral that I like.

[loyalty]

most of that mark up is going to the cost they have to eat to have livestock on display. i try to buy local when i can to support the lfs, but somethings (like bulbs) i'm always gonna get online

[foggy54]

Service, What is it worth, I went to a lfs in Nashville looking for a part for a vital piece of equipment. The shop keeper didn't have the part I needed so they pulled a unopened unit from the shelf and took it apart and sold me the part that I needed and ordered a part for their equipment. I didn't expect that kind of service but I really did appreciate it then and still do today.

[waynesworld]

Well one thing I will chime in is that if you run a LFS and mark your store up only 30% you might as well stay on the side of the street and beg for money because you will make more at that. A store that retails has to have a larger profit margin because of inventory cost and turnover and in the case of the LFS they do pay a distributor, have die off, and the online places do not in most cases. I do not buy all things at the LFS of course like the rock I just ordered but when possible I do try to keep them in the loop as it is nice to be able to go ask a ? and get help or to test water. Also like I found out with a power strip that I have now that will probably take more $ to send back rater then if I brought it at AC or EB they would stand behind there stuff. By the way I love the Prem membershipo on RC love the spell checker.

[rsteagall]

So far I can agree with all of you. I think we're all under agreeance that the more specialized the equipment the larger the profit margin anything is. I see pretty much all of you buy your bulbs somewhere else and specialized equipment too.

I gladly bough my CPR from AC knowinglying paying much more than online, but I did get some other valuable help from them and that was well worth the extra. Thats also where I bought my Oceanic 58 gal 6 years ago. I had to skip the lightbulb though. Funny thing is when I was inquiring about the MH bulb, one of the workers saw my face and whispered "you should get this online." I guess its all circumstantial.

On a side note, what time on Tuesdays does AC get shipments in?

[SexiShrimp]

I have gotten all my large equip or rare corals from my lfs...I just ask them to order them for me. It costs less and I get good quality and excellent service.
:)

[EvilMel]

Well to be honest, I don't buy that much from LFS or online, mostly because I don't really need alot of stuff. With that said, there is nothing better than being able to observe that a fish is healthy and eating before buying it. I really appreciate the LFS for that (not that I have bought any fish in FOREVER).

I usually think a mark up of 2x is basically normal, but when it gets to be more than that I just feel kinda offended. Granted, I don't know anything about running a LFS and all their worries about what costs what, but at that point it just seems ridiculous to me.

[fishdoc11]

I really enjoy visiting my local lfs's and talking shop etc.... I ocasionally take in frags for credit and this makes the ammount I purchase increase a little. I have allways bought fish at the lfs for the reason Mel stated. But as Mel also stated after you have been in the hobby a while you run out of room for fish:) I also buy food/perishables and things that I need immediately or when I need just a couple of things I go to one to the lfs. Things that are heavy like salt and gravel typically come out close the same price as online.

As has been stated bulbs and lighting in general are much cheaper online. Also harder to get corals are usually easier to get online(but not necessarily cheaper) but some can be ordered at the lfs. If you just want one or two and the lfs can get them that's usually the better option. RO/DI units and parts are cheaper online as well as other larger ticket items like chillers, skimmers etc......The down side to ordering these things online is that if you have problems service takes a few days if you have to ship the item back etc.....

In short I buy at an lfs when I know it is too my advantage and I try to buy there sometimes when it's not:)

Chris

[rcmike]

I get most of my more expensive stuff online because of the huge markup and also because the LFS's around here don't carry some of the better skimmers, calcium reactors, lighting and such. I did get my Aqua C skimmer at the Critter though and it was just about the same price as online. I almost always buy my livestock locally because you can see it and know what condition it is in. I have only ordered livestock on a few occasions and the only reason was because what I wanted wasn't available locally.

[aquaman67]

Well,

Another point to add insult to injury is our lovely State sales tax.

Not only do you pay 200% more then you get to pay 9.5 % sales tax.

Online you don't pay sales tax, although I think you are supposed to claim it to the State and pay up. I'm sure milllions roll in from that.

Although the sales tax is often off-set by shipping cost, places like Marine Depot offer free shipping on orders over $175.

Will I spend another $100 to keep from paying shipping?

Darn skippy I will.

I get their catalog (just got the new one) and start my list of the lastest "must haves".

I have bought all my livestock locally which is probably why I have nothing cool. I can find a clam in Clarksville. Been looking for 2 months.

I think I'm going to Kermit's Reef the 18th.

[fishdoc11]

Ebay has lots of nice clams in right now.

[c_stowers]

What all do they have in right now as far as clams? I'm looking for one and would like to get it locally.

[reewik]

I just like to fish shop, be it the LFS, Online, Fishdoc11's tank (LOL) or where ever the hobby leads me. What would we do without the LFS's is the question. We all have to use them for different things I am sure. They provide us, as a club, ways to meet people and add to the maddness we call MTRC. We could all be in the hobby without the LFS, but why? I have on many occasions bought something that they got in that I could just not live without. As stated you can see the fish eat first. I could go on and on.. But it is late and I will not.

[fishdoc11]

Ebay has several nice croceas in...and some gigas.

[reewik]

Man I may be able to fit in one more... LOL

[SRA4031]

That is what I tried to do is offer god pricing, and of course it took alot of research. Most of the LFS orders from Southeast Pets, or Aquarium Life Support, which is expensive, and for the most part, the supplier is charging retail to the LFS. What I was charging my customers is what other LFS was paying. I ordered my lights for instance from the same supplier Hellolights bought from. If more people gave me the chance, and help me grow I would have been able to offer more items at online pricing.

Bottom line is if the LFS wants to compete with online, they need to put forth the effort to find the suppliers with the lower prices. I could actually buy from my supplier, sell to AC and EB what they are paying from their suppliers and make good money. Livestock is high mark up, but they have to account for high die off, but as before, I did not order from the same suppliers.

I say if they want you to buy from them instead of ordering online, make them work for it. If they will order from the right suppliers, they can drop prices, not as low as we like, but low enough for us to buy from them. Who knows, maybe someone will buy out my remaining stock, and I will clue them in on some good suppliers. LOL

[jfolley67]

I have learned quite a bit so far in the last 3 months in this hobby. At first I purchased EVERYTHING at my lfs only to feel almost betrayed when everyone online told me that I got ripped off. I felt miserable that I could have started this high end hobby with just a few more bucks in my own pocket. This was my fault though for not researching equipment online before purchase also. I am definitely for supporting the lfs. If they are not here then the convenience of an emergency run for something quick is not available. HOWEVER, I feel that this is a free country enough that if they did look around, they could purchase equipment at least from cheaper suppliers. I might be wrong, I have never been on that side of the counter. Seems to me that there are TONS of suppliers out there and because of this fact, there has to be some kind of price competitionSo far I have purchased most of my larger items here local but definitely the latest equipment has been all online. I do purchase my livestock locally KNOWING that I am spending more than online, but honestly I would rather spend a little more because I can see my fish and I don't have to be concerned about its shipping time. :rolleyes:

[waynesworld]

I sure hope everyone is paying taxes on the stuff they get shipped in as that is what is going to pay for me to set up my 240

[fishdoc11]

jfolley67,
Don't feel bad. I bought everything for my first reef setup at an lfs. Come to think of it I bought everything for my marine and freshwater setups for years and years from lfs's.
Chris

[theop]

This is really a universal problem, especailly when it comes to specialty hobbies. I deal with the same issues with biking and with my coin collecting.

Things are usually going to be cheaper online, but price isn't the only factor to consider. I think the LFS and smaller local stores in general need support. This applies too when considering the LFS vs. PetSmart or SuperPets. Otherwise, these small stores will eventually fold and all we'll be left with locally is big impersonal mega-stores with only morons to answer our questions.

There is a limit though. For example, I don't feel that AQ's prices are competative at all when it comes to pumps, lights, and other semi-expensive accessories.

I don't mind spending 10-30% more locally for stuff, especially when you consider the convience, ability to exchange/return, tech support, advice, etc. However twice the price or more is hard to stomach. If it's true that there is so much markup from supplies/distributors at the LFS, then they should start buying thier stuff online themselves.

[just dave]

Interesting thread.


theop ,I think this should go with your signature quote.:p

http://www.mcdonaldsboulder.com/itemImg/5-lrg.jpg

[danieljames]

lol. I think its a give and take. I've called Sean numerous times to get prices on things. He's always straight forward in telling me "you would probably be better getting it online", if he cannot get close to the price. Would i spend an extra $50 for a lighting fixture from Emerald Bay? You bet i would. Would Sean or anyone from EB expect me to spend an extra $150 for something? I doubt it. Factoring in how a place run by people like EB has, should really be considered. Of course all this is considering your lfs can even get the stuff you want....lol

Saving money online from a stranger: $100

Emergency help when my tank seams fail and my lfs says "bring your stuff by...i have room for them": Priceless

[logman17]

I bought all of my major purchases for my new tank online. Lights, skimmer, sump, pumps, UV, etc... It's not that I don't want to support the LFS's; it was only the fact that none of them have the equipment I wanted.

Sure they could order the stuff for me, but isn't that the same as me buying online, but without the sales tax?

I definately believe in supporting mt LFS's, and I have the receipts (a ton of them) to prove it. I think, like a lot of you above said, it's better to purchase equipment online.

I definately enjoy going to AC on Tuesdays (on my way now) and looking @ the new stuff and talking with both of the Chris'. They are knowledgeable and I enjoy thier spin on a lot of things.

[jfolley67]

You guys make a great point...no I am done beating myself over the head with what I spent at some moments.....but hey...who hasn't been there?? I do agree and always wondered why theh lfs guys don't try to buy some things online to resell...just curious. I love that I can run in and check out the new stuff that comes in. I would also be willing to pay a bit more for convenience on equipment but asking for double the price is just too extreme and really not fair. When I started my tank, I was going to just increase the size of my freshwater. I have never had a saltwater tank until 3 months ago. I had TONS of questions before I found forums online and asked TONS of questions and still do sometimes at the LFS. I find depending on their mood that day what answers I receive so always check out their answers against others opinions. This is not to be rude but to be more informed. What I want to know from all of you ......the first 6 months you had your tank....how much did you worry about stuff going wrong.....on a scale of 1-10.....1 being not often...and 10 being constantly.....just curious.....what kinds of things did you worry about?????...gosh I should start a new thread for this!!! Don't mean to take over this thread, so if I get an answer or two I will start a new thread....:rollface:

[reewik]

I still worry something may go wrong. It is hard to say when that will pass.

[gflat65]

I think you're in for life;).

[fishdoc11]

I'm going out of town next week and I'm worried sick:)

[theop]

Originally posted by reewik
I still worry something may go wrong. It is hard to say when that will pass.

Obsession: A recurrent unwanted thought, image or impulse that's distressing and comes to mind despite efforts to suppress or ignore it. :)

[aquaman67]

I was at a 10 for over a year. I was always checking this and that.

I've settled down some now, but I think that some people are just more prone to being excitable. Others are just laid back. To me, being worried about something shows you care or it's important to you.

As for the LFS advice, never take advice from anyone who has a financial stake in the outcome of that advice.

That's how people end up with SeaClone Skimmers.