NSW?? Any comments?

[puckbs]

What do you guys think about that natural sea water in a bucket that they are selling now? Any considerable perks or dangers? Curious to see what you guys think but also, if there are any useful links out there that you know of, would be greatly appreciated. :rollface:

Hope everyone is enjoying the weather! Finally!

[NYSharkLady]

At MACNA last year the guy that "produces" it was there. He set up a really cute tank (looked like a giant gum ball machine) and it had all sorts of sea anemones and gorgs and clowns in it. He said that he just set it up that day with his NSW. They all looked great! I was also thinking of trying this and keeping it in the house for emergency situations (like when I go away and for some reason hubby needs to do a water change and I don't trust him mixing salt water. ;) ).
Anyone have any experiance with it? I am also interested in hearing what everyone has to say.

[LCGoldman]

Just out of curiousity, how much are they charging for that natural sea water in a bucket that they are selling now?

[fishome25]

I think the stuff is great for nano tanks, but far from economical for the average tank. I sell plenty to the "lazier" people at my job.

[billsreef]

It works, but why use imported NSW when you can do like Joe at Atlantis and use the local stuff ;)

[cali_reef]

Bill,

How do you filter the local stuff before using it?

I am thinking about hauling a few 5 gallon jugs to the beach in the summer.

[Spracklcat]

FWIW, for anyone who lives near Stony Brook, there is an Artesian well there with a pipe spitting out crystal clear water--of course it is "unsalted", but when I used it in my tank I never had better looking livestock. Even better than the RO I use now. I tested it--no copper, phosphates, nitrates/nitrites/ammonia, just a bit of calcium. And it tastes great too.

Christine

[Jcohen9999]

Originally posted by billsreef
It works, but why use imported NSW when you can do like Joe at Atlantis and use the local stuff ;)


Speaking of the local stuff...I have thought about this more and more (and even bent Tom D's ear on it a few times):

What do you all think about using local water from say 10 miles (or 20 or 30) offshore as occasional supplemental water change water? I can't remember the source but I know there is at least one author that mentions that he has used local NSW for years and saw great benefits. And as you mentioned, Bill, Atlantis uses local water too (but do they use it in the reef tank?). What about the prospect of dragging a plankton net out there?


So let's hear it...Who's up for a boat ride with a big bunch of 5 gallon buckets?


Jeff

[cali_reef]

Jeff, Joe had said during his presentation they get the water right from the shore line, not off shore.

I know alot of people using NSW in Los Angeles since you can buy it pretty cheap. Most of their tank looks great.

[olemos]

I know that most reefers in Portugal and Brazil collect water from the Atlantic and most claim to have better results with NSW,
Brazil is tropical but Portugal is at about the same latitude as New York and the water temperature is very close, I don’t know how pollutants would compare to our waters, they also have one of the biggest aquariums in the world that collects water off the Atlantic,this aquarium is located on the water next to a big city.

I believe that when we use DI water we take most of the bad stuff out but at the same time we also take all the good and when we throw the salt mix in, there is going to be a few thing missing that coral enjoy in there natural habitat.

It is like grama’s home cooking , many try to copy it but granny has that secret ingredient and nothing puts a smile on your face like the original.

[Neurotech]

I have been using exclusively nsw from the sound since setting my tank up this time. I have been hauling buckets from a creek in Wading River (yes, right by the old nuclear power plant) ((GASP)), timing it to the incoming, but not yet high tide. Everything seems very happy. It was amarine biologist suggested it to me, and he has been doing it for years. He tested the water himslef on some high-fallutin equipment and swears by it. So far so good. Seems to me like it makes sense. It was scary at first.

[billsreef]

I used to lug buckets of NSW from the East End all the time. Only used the artificial mixes in a pinch if the weather was bad and I really needed to do a water change. Always had good luck with it, in fact I think things did better with NSW than with IO mix. I only coarse filtered with some filter floss and a homemade bleach bottle funnel. Only reason I stopped doing it was a back injury that makes lugging multiple pails of SW up the beach too dificult to be worthwile. I am thinking of picking up a power inverter for the truck and some food grade plastic barrels and pumping water. I'm thinking it'd be better to go back to NSW and certainly cheaper when running several hundred gallons of tanks ;)

[billsreef]

Originally posted by cali_reef
Jeff, Joe had said during his presentation they get the water right from the shore line, not off shore.


Yup, they have tank truck and get it from Shinnecock inlet. No real need to go offshore, however a boat trip still sounds like fun :D

[Neurotech]

We live on a friggin island and pay money to make artificial sw? I think one thing that you need to do to make it practical is to find water that is deep enough. It is difficult to get water from a sloping beach, so a banked inlet is a good idea. I tie a rope on my bucket handle and toss it out. When I pull it back in, I top off from a pitcher. I do have to add salt to get it to proper levels for my tank.

[fishome25]

Bill thats exactly what I did last summer. I have 55 gallon pickle barrels with screw lids. Carrying that much water up a rocky incline (2nd wantagh bridge) got old quick. I bought I power inverter and a utility pump. You need a utility pump if you are going a long distance or uphill which I was. I didn't do anything to the water.
At the time I change 2 barrels worth out of my 180. After you figure all the rock I have, I was left with hardly any water. The water was cooler so the corals closed up but everything was fine the next day.

[smallreef]

what are some of the parameters of the nsw thats in the sound?

Calcium?
Alk?
salinity?
ph?

[terranova]

I have a boat... :cool:

You know what? That's a really good point, we live on an island, and spend so much money making artificial saltwater...it makes tons more sense to pump it right out of the ocean. It's more natural anyways...and obviously Joe has had great success with it. His reef tank, over 20,000 gallons, is amazing, and like Bill said they get it right from the water. So...why shouldn't I...not to mention I'm a teen on a modest budget, so the money saving factor is huge too.

If my Dad can figure out a convenient way to get it from point A (beach) to point B (tank) then I think it's a good idea...if you heat it before putting it in the tank, then there shouldn't really be a problem with temperature differences.

We carry the NSW where I work, I'm going there in a couple hours and I can attempt to get water params, but they might be sealed or something. If I can't get in I can't test...lol

Now I have to go bring this idea up to my Dad. Hehe...wish me luck.

[DgenR8]

I've thought about it many times. I have the inverter, and I know Tom had access to the food grade 55 gallon barrels (is that still an option, Tom??) For the price of a pump, and a couple of barrels, I can start saving the cost of synthetic salt. Certainly something to think about......

[puckbs]

thanks for all the responses everyone... I was going to try it and now i definitely feel better about it... I'm still doing research...my questions now are what about winter and will mixing nsw with artificials have any side affects?

sidenote...I'm taking graduate courses at dowling, one of them entitled Long Island Estuaries, so i volunteered to help out with a water quality study this summer so i will have more info that may prove useful!!!

[DgenR8]

You will have to either keep the water long enough to evap some, or add salt to get local NSW up to where most of us keep our salinity.

[Paul B]

Yes we live on an Island so I don't see any problem about using NSW, I see a bigger problem using ASW. As for your question about mixing ASW with NSW I have been doing it since 1971 in my still running reef. I have not yet found a problem except obviousely it is heavy. If it were not so heavy I would use 100% NSW. I have a boat on the Sound and I take it from there but I prefer to take it on the ocean beaches on the south shore. I once started an entire fish store (Not Just Fish) with Sound water. I had a smaller boat then that I trailered so I filled up 55 gallon plastic drums and towed the boat to the store where I siphoned the water into the tanks.
You do not have to go out 15 miles, at high tide the water that was out 15 miles is now on the beach. All of your animals come from NSW, none of them come from ASW. I have dove in some of the places where our animals come from and they are not as non polluted as you think.
Take care.
Paul

[DgenR8]

I'm warming up to NSW. There was a timwe when I would have strongly urged people around here to avoid it for the possibility of pollution.
I do have to disagree on one point though Paul. Not all animals in this ttrade/hobby come from NSW. There are fish breeding in ASW, and the offspring being sold in the hobby now. I do understand your point, and as I said, I'm warming up to the idea of collecting local NSW, I just wanted to point out that ASW is a viable option, and spawning/rearing of marine life is happening in it.

[Paul B]

Larry, I did not mean that you could not spawn animals in ASW, I have done it myself many times but for the one or two fish that you may find in an entire city that are for sale that were raised in ASW, the vast majority come from the sea. I have never heard of anyone raising tangs, moorish Idols, or butterflies to sell commercially in any amounts. There is nothing wrong with ASW but the natural stuff is free and free is usually better. The pollutants we have here in NY are mostly bacteria, we do have nitrate but the nitrate levels in the Sound the last time I measured were much less them my tap water (which I do not of course use) If I were living in Utah, that would be another story. I would move.
Take care.
Paul

[cali_reef]

Larry, I think you should start a NSW delivery business. People in LA pays anywhere from $.25 to $.50 a gallon at the LFS. I use about 150 gallon a month for my water changes.

[DgenR8]

I agree Paul, far more animals in the trade come from the ocean, than ASW, I just wanted to point out that ASW is not a horrible thing to use.
I am getting closer and cloer to trying NSW, but I'm kinda set in my ways, and more than a little worried about possible problems. I'll probably get to the point where I'll try it soon, I just haven't gotten there yet.
Pierce,
I have actually thought about that, but a food grade, fiberglass lined tanker truck doesn't come cheap.

[cali_reef]

Get a 500+ plastic tank and mount it to a small trailer, like the portable car wash people have. You just need to live close to clean water source and make few deliveries a day

[puckbs]

are those "brute" cans good to use? I just got my 125 and i'm thinking of using nsw to fill the sucker...not sure where to grab the water from on the south shore though, the boat isn't running yet...hmmmm

[terranova]

Okay, well I brought the idea of NSW up to my dad, and he actually didn't flip. But he did have some questions...

First off, how do you treat the water after you get it? There's gotta be some sort of filtration, I'd be very scared to put the water directly into my tank...

Secondly, where to take it from? I think it'd be somewhat weird to just walk down the beach with a huge hose and start sucking water from the shoreline...there's got to be a "good" location to take the water from.

Thirdly, is there a big risk of getting parasites and pollutants by using NSW?

[Neurotech]

Not that I know the answers, but, for what it's worth -
try to find a spot where there is some drop-off or depth (like an inlet or peer, or on someone's boat), rather than a gradual grade as in the typical beach. Get the water as the tide is coming in. I like to go about 1 to 2 hours before high tide. I do have to add some salt to get it up to the salinity I like. I have not used any kind of filtration. I let the water stand a while, sometimes I use a heater too, and don't pour the very last of it in the tank, as that has particulates that have settled, and maybe some sand. So far, so good.

[Neurotech]

I am wondering whether using nsw may provide trace elements that we are not aware of that may benefit some corals. I just got a goniopora, so wish us luck.

[fishome25]

I'm no expert but here are a few things I'd think about.
1. I wouldn't filter it, some natural plankton is good.
2. Collect it on incoming high tide.
3. don't collect after it rains, and a few days after. too much pollution from runoff.
my uncle was selling me those barrels, I'll see if i can get more.

[Dubge]

Hey all, My whole system is NSW and I have been using it for a year and a half. when adding small amounts I add it right to the tank, if I am adding a larger amount or it is winter time I will heat it up first. I picked up a sump pump at home depot and fill a 350 gallon water tank that fits perfect in the bed of my truck. I also deliver the water locally here in Mass and charge .50-1.00 per gallon. Here are some test results I have done on the local water here:
SG - 1.024
Ca - 340-380
Alk - 8 DKH
Mag - 1080-1120
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
ammo 0
phos 0 but have tested .25 in a couple batches that I ended up dumping

I only use ASW if the weather is bad and I can not collect

Here are a few collecting tip:
-Only collect on an incomming tide
-Never collect after/during heavy rain, wait 24 hours after
-Make sure there are no boats close by running
-Never collect near a drain

[cb747]

Hey Pierce you Warren and i should invest in a trailer and a couple of 55 food grade drums! LOL

[terranova]

These are all def. really great things to consider, this is a great thread.

I'm thinking we should have LIRA beach parties in the summer. We can all have a BBQ and then collect water for our tanks. *lol*

[fishome25]

hmm LIRA beach party huh. I think we need more reefer girls. :cool:

[terranova]

*raises hand*

HELLO!!!! I'm a reefer girl!!!

Anybody who went to NERAC should know that. :P

[fishome25]

Well thats a start. but 16 is a bit young for me ;) . even though Konrad says I look 15 :confused:

[jnfallon]

I would think that chemically NSW is far superior, but what about pathogens? local illness strains that fish may not have immune responses to?

Living in Montauk, I have been tempted many times, but have always read mixed reviews on the subject, (maybe promulgated by the manufacturers), which the majority cautioning away.

Any negative experiences?

[terranova]

Oh...

Well I look 13.

LOL

You didn't say WHY you wanted Reefer Girls...you just said we needed some. :P

[Paul B]

about 20% of the water is from Long Island Sound, tank set up in 1972, is it safe?
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_DSC00919.jpg

[cb747]

Looks good to me as always Paul. :)

[fishome25]

hey Paul just looking at your interests. isn't it illegal to scuba for lobsters.

[Nemesis911]

Jeff,

What do you all think about using local water from say 10 miles (or 20 or 30) offshore as occasional supplemental water change water?

With the price of gas on the water expected to be $3 /gallon that 10-20 mile offshore trip would get expensive quickly. What the heck, count me in!

Mike V. <><

[puckbs]

33 yr old tank..that puppy slate bottomed?!? :lol:

[jnfallon]

Thats what I like a bout you Paul, you get a kick out of proving people worng (or right).

DSB'S, NSW, etc. Any acronm is fair game.

BTW, def admire your tank.

[cb747]

Justin you gotta see his tank in person! its awesome! I still love the reverse undergravel filter!

[Jcohen9999]

OK. I am convinced that I need to start supplementing with NSW but there is no way in hell that I am going to use in-shore water (I've been boating on the South Shore way too long and have seen way too many people pumping their heads out while running in the state channel).

As a start, I think I will head out about 2 miles out of Jones Inlet next weekend (weather and tide permitting) and grab about 20 gallons worth.

Once the weather starts getting really nice I'll track down one of those blue water eddies and grab some of that water.

If anybody wants to join me please let me know. (Mike, you are always welcome no matter what the price of gas is :) )


Jeff

[Paul B]

Thanks, Chris, fishome25, it's illegal to dive for lobsters unless you get a permit which is about $5.00. Most of the lobsters died a few years ago so I did not renew my permit. Brad, the bottom is not slate. I made it out of the bottom of a chariot.
I also would not take water from those canals you have on the south shore but from any ocean beach like Jones is perfect.
As for going 20 miles offshore, I go about 20 feet offshore.
Don't make me put up another picture.
Take care.
Paul

[puckbs]

LOL Paul, it really is great to have someone like you in the club, nobody really tries anything long enough anymore to really be able to give an accurate account of how well it works.

I happen to live on one of those "south shore canals," you can't see your hand 4 inches underwater..and i'm NOT kidding...lol.. quick aside about that moorish..how long you had him and any tips?

[DgenR8]

Brad,
I lived on a canal in Baldwin, and I know exactly what you're talking about when you say that you can't see 4" below the surface.
I'm not trying to tell you that pollution has nothing to do with that, but it's certainly not 100% responsible. The biggest reason for the way the water looks here, is algae and phyto. The pollution is there, but it's far less visable.
When you go off shore, into deeper watewr, or catch water that's coming in with the tide, it looks pretty much just as "dirty" but it's not.

[cali_reef]

Originally posted by DgenR8
The biggest reason for the way the water looks here, is algae and phyto.

Perfect, I can stop buying salt and DT at the same time:lol:.

Larry,
Congrats on "upgrading" to RC staff.

[terranova]

Well that kills two birds with one stone!

I'm hooked on the idea of LIRA beach parties.

:lol:

[olemos]

It is true that rich water (meaning full of food and nutrients for marine life) will not look clear, I would still stay away from collecting near inlets, bays and canals.
Has anyone here ever put clams from our local waters in there tanks?

[cb747]

I had a few at one time. They lasted about a year. I think our reef tanks are just to warm for them to live long term. I saved some clams that were about to be eaten by myself and my friend! They did come from local waters.

[olemos]

there are a few people that are staring to use them to aid on filtration of there tanks.
Hey maby pick up a few when we go and collect NSW if not we can alway use the with some Cronas lime and tabasco sause :lol:

[Paul B]

Brad, I have had the moorish Idol about 8 months. I make sure it gets "Selcon" every day. It is an experiment being I know at least a dozen ways how not to keep them alive more than two or three years.
As for the visability in the canals on the south shore, it is not pollution, at least not real toxic stuff. It is mostly from the lawn food that people put on their grass. It is nitrogen which grows algae which feeds plankton. Our water here is alive where as the water in the Caribbean is dead. Hold up a glass of our water to the light and you will see an abundance of living fauna. You will not see anything tiny in the tropical water. There are no large fisheries in the tropics for this reason, there are also no large schools of fish there. The fisheries that feed the world are all in the northern waters where the plankton feed the large schools of fish. We have much more fish here you just can't see them. I have almost 300 dives between here and the tropics and we have the most fish.
Moorish Idol in Tahiti.
Take care.
Paul
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094tahiti-thumb.jpg

[onegreenray]

brad,
make the trip out to my house and we can load up my pick up with some of nissaquoges best. just go down to the long beach.

[Paul B]

You can not put local clams in a tropical tank for any lenght of time. They live about a week.
Paul

[puckbs]

i didn't mean to insinuate that the water is "dirty" or polluted...just full of stuff! I have a degree in zoology with a focus on marine biology, but hopefully others will read that and be less weary to enjoy the shore line! actually...stay away, its polluted :lol:

[Spracklcat]

Uh, June and I are "fish girls"..can't miss us, we're usually two of about three regularly at meetings...and we're not 16 either....boy do we feel overlooked... :)

Christine

[jnfallon]

cuties too, from what I remember.

You flirt w/ Konrad all you want Lonnie, I'm going to flirt w/ June & Christine.

p.s. - no worries, girls, I am big time in love w/ the best woman (for me) ever.

[NYSharkLady]

HAHA...Oh boy. We girls have to watch it Christine! You know how men are! They say that they just wanna look, but in their mind they are doing more! Although I can't imagine anything that could happen that would include women, fish, a beach and some beer. ;) We'll have to watch our backs! :D

[jnfallon]

:beer: :dance: :fish1: :beachbum: :celeb3: :fun1:

[Spracklcat]

For the beach party, can we just have the boys and girls and beer and leave the fish home?


Christine

[Spracklcat]

"Hey baby, you've got really cute....anemones..."

:)

[stando76]

Neurotech,
Where in wading river? I live in Manorville and am thinking about giving it a try.
Thanks
Stan

[Neurotech]

Stan,
I have been using water from the inlet at the end of the road towards the plant. However, I was just there this past weekend an they have it all fenced off - I think they are re-dredging it! So I just walked out onto the Jetty rocks as far as I could at the Wading River Beach. I just did the water change a couple of hours ago, actually and all seems well. IMO the inlet water is beter as it is deeper there, but I bet the difference, if any, is negligible. I do recommend going as the high tide is coming in and not at high tide or beyond, as you are getting the freshest water from further out. So, do you know the road up to the town beach in Wading River?

[stando76]

Neurotech,
I am not sure of the exact road. Wm Floyyd to 25A. East on 25A to where?

Also do you treat it any way? Additional Salt? Filter?
Also what tide table should I reference? Is there on for Wading River?

Thanks

[kenn]

im gonna start using NSW, but before i put it in my tank im definitely run it thorugh a couple of cycles in a UV filter.

[Neurotech]

Here's directions, but I don't know that this water is any better than any other. The only thing I do know is that the water from the creek tested out ok at one point, and has worked out fine for me. OK, enough provisos and caveat emptors. Here's directions.
http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&2si=navt&un=m&2gi=0&cl=EN&ct=NA&2n=SUFFOLK+COUNTY&2da=-1.000000&2rc=L1AAA&rsres=1&1ex=1&1y=US&1a=&1ac=IE1CknULON0riHGVqvo0OyM%252fXoq4873JTos8cZQVK3bgFZWNrEqNy3RYA%252fLkV%252fJR&1ah=&2y=US&2a=1+CREEK+RD&2c=WADING+RIVER&2s=NY&2z=11792-1006&2ah=