Is what we do humane?

[Flagpull]

Now, I am by no means a PETA fanatic, infact I disagree with most of what PETA does and funds.

Anyway...I was just wondering how much (if any) research has been done to study the effects on fish from being removed from the Ocean and put into our tiny glass boxes.

Even if you put one chromis in a five hundred gallon tank...think of the hundreds of thousands gallons that fish is exposed to each day in nature...with freedom to swim anywhere.

Any takers? Just got on my mind...

[tekknoschtev]

This is an interesting thought, but I suppose that's why many reefers go for the 'tank raised' or 'cultured' species of livestock (fish, inverts, and corals). I know that whenever I can, I get things that have either been raised, or were born and raised in a closed system, so that's all they technically know. Granted, instinctually, they probably still suffer some from being cramped, when in the wild, like you've said, they'd have millions of gallons of water to swim about in.

[Vincerama2]

Well, I don't condone "harvesting" any thing to extinction, but the fish taken for aquariums is probably the tiniest percentage of the amount of fish we suck out of the ocean to eat. It doesn't matter that "our" fish are pretty...fish are fish. We eat megatons of them.

Also, remember that the chromis you have now captured, is being fed on a regular basis and is not being eaten by something else. I'm sure that survival is the unquestionable priority of any fish, now you've removed that stress in exchange for a smaller and less natural habitat....do fish even know where they are? Do they care about anything other than avoiding being eaten, eating, pooping and the occassional funnyh business?

V

[stlmustangz]

I bet you eat cows,pigs,chickens etc.. & don't give it a second thought huh..theor's always someone who has nothing better to do than complain & find wrong in everything...Give it up..

[Scuba_Dave]

Is it humane to lock animals into a zoo?
Is it humane to harvest tens of thousands of pounds of fish for food?
Is it humane to raise cattle just to slaughter them for food?

I think, if they had the choice, they would choose the
tank vs the grille

I take good care of my fish, as I would hope others do

[Vincerama2]

Yeah, what about dogs and cats? I'm pretty sure my dog likes it better with me, than out in the wild.

What might be less than humane is using cyanide or whatever to capture them. I've eaten so many animals and consumed so many resources in my lifetime that I can't even think about it.

Well, my tank is populated with frags from frag trades anyway, so, they've never seen the ocean. (Well, OK maybe the original colony).

Besides what is "Humane" I think is a matter of personal opinion. Just think of all the animals I'm NOT housing in a tank. And I'm happy to report that, I haven't kicked any homeless people today.

ie; If you question whether it's humane or not is not a question that can be answered by other people. If you think about it and decide that it's NOT humane, then stop doing it.

V

[Flagpull]

Originally posted by stlmustangz
I bet you eat cows,pigs,chickens etc.. & don't give it a second thought huh..theor's always someone who has nothing better to do than complain & find wrong in everything...Give it up..
Well you certainly took it wrong didn't you? :rolleyes:

Anyway...to the reasonable people who actually READ my post...


Wasn't attacking anyone....I've been working in a pet store for years, so stuff like this comes into my head from time to time.

I personally think that if fish are well taken care of then it doesn't matter...I wasn't questioning the humanity of it I guess more as I was curious as to whether there has been research done as to whether fish notice a difference or if they are even aware as to a significant change.

[tekknoschtev]

I dont know of any formal research done, however, I think the results could be compared a few ways. Comparing the life span of a "healthy" fish in an aquarium to that of a fish in the wild. Personally, I would assume (this is being very unscientific of me, which is out of character) that if the fish was born in an aquarium, they would know no actual difference, considering they were never given the opportunity to be in the wild.

Think of it this way. You live in a house. Granted you do leave that house, but you do, and you adapt to pretty much any sized house that you have to. If finances dictate you live in an 800 sqft. apartment, then you do it. Its nicer to be in the 6,000 sqft. mansion, but you will make due with what you have to. If you are moving from the mansion to the apartment, then it might be difficult, however, if you are moving from a 10gal breeder tank to another 10gal tank, with more natural environment, then the fish will be happier, and even if you move it to a 20gal, it has 2 times the space it did, and now its not super packed with hundreds of sibblings.

That's just my opinion.

[Devilshand]

I'd say yes it is, if you really do try your best to keep what you collect happy, its human to be curious. to want to understand things , to organize whats understood, and take action on it, is it humane, I think so, your own conscience can probably answer it better though, and its a good question.

think of how much more thought you give to the reefs of the world,there makeup,thier inhabitants, their future, and the future for us if we don't think about these things.your understanding of mans pressure on the planet, the life on it and your relation to it has been expanded, I dunno, it sounds like bs, but actaully i'm being quite sincere, I suppose people judge their response to this kind of thing by thier own ideas of what's decent in life, and how they percieve mans relationship with the other beasties 'n such,on the planet, theirs alot of inhumanity out there, having an aquarium isnt' as detrimental to the planet,as say, not having any idea of what coral reef is.and making decisions on the fate of such places , in total ingorance.. imo, fwiw

[kbmdale]

My fish love it. I mean they get to watch TV and eat prepared meals without the fear of the BIG FISH eating them. What more could they want. AND YES MY DAMSEL WATCHES TV. When I'm watching it he stays in that corner looking in that direction....

[Vincerama2]

I suppose if space, rather than treatment were the issue, it would depend on the type of fish. Like keeping a shark in your bathrub is probably not very humane, but keeping a betta in a beermug might not actually bother it. (I never understood those fish) Some fish evolved to swim fast and far and they can't do that in a tank that's too small. People are always getting jumped on when they say "I have a 20g tank and I have 4 tangs ... " But if you have a handful of damsels, they can live happily in the 20g.

V

[Diatome]

Commercial fishing does more damage to the reefs and other living organisms than the aquarium trade. Look what nets do when drug across the bottom of any area of the ocean. Very indiscriminate.

Is it humane, I lean toward not in most arguments started over this but I have had aquariums for 30 years. How can this be? Captive breeding gives us better stock and protects the animals in nature. My 2 tanks are more of an experiment for me than entertainment. I try very hard to not buy any wild caught and do let my LFS know I want captive bred. Will captive bred be the wave of the future? Of course, it happened in Fresh and with the research into propigation, will happen with salt.

[phil519]

Originally posted by Flagpull
Now, I am by no means a PETA fanatic, infact I disagree with most of what PETA does and funds.

Anyway...I was just wondering how much (if any) research has been done to study the effects on fish from being removed from the Ocean and put into our tiny glass boxes.

Even if you put one chromis in a five hundred gallon tank...think of the hundreds of thousands gallons that fish is exposed to each day in nature...with freedom to swim anywhere.

Any takers? Just got on my mind...

humane: marked or motivated by concern with the alleviation of suffering.

Keeping a fish in a tiny glass box may cause suffering if the fish isn't cared for adequately. A by-product though that is unseen by most hobbyists is what suffering the fish endures just to be in our tank (capture, shipping, etc.). Obviously the use of cyanide is inhumane and something that causes suffering.

A lot of posters have alluded to the "happiness" of the fish being away from predators and with a steady food supply. I question that only to the extent that we really don't know whether a fish is "happy" or not. However one can make the assumption that since the fish is "fat and healthy" that it is "happy".

As an aside - a lot of folks like to picture that a fish has the "option" to roam anywhere in the ocean. I believe that this is true for larger migratory fish but perhaps less so for territorial fish such as damsels. I'm not a scientist - but I'd imagine any attempt to leave the "home" area is always rife with the risk of being eaten or being seen by the "butt" (a la nemo). Afaik: small fish do travel - just in huge schools.

Anyway - it's an interesting question/thought and something that all of us should keep in the back of our minds.

[KingDiamond]

In my opinon the "worst" way our hobby effects our animals is not the environment itself but how "our environments" effect the way the animals live. Many of the fish we keep would probably reproduce many times over but for the most part don't get that oppotunity in our tanks. Its kind of like the way I felt after I had a vesectomy, my biological purpose on the plant was over. This might seem a little over the top but from a purely biological perspective this can be depressing. I guess that why my wife telling me she was pregnant three days after my operation cut my slight depression short. I guess my operation getting moved back had more of an impact than I thought. What I am trying to say is depletion of the gene pool has a pretty big impact.

Brad

[ozadars]

Actually almost all the aquarium fishes have their territories in the nature and their territories are not extreamly big. Damsels, clowns, gobies, blennies, dwarf angels, pseudochromis, grammas, roundheads, hawks, jaws, dragonets, etc.. Non of these fish will suffer in a big enough tank from the space because they dont use a huge swimming place in the nature either. Just search about the fish you want before buying and you can get some idea about the territory it uses in the nature so you decide if your tank is suitable for it or not.

[Shoestring Reefer]

He he, it's been a while since I spent some time in this forum, I miss it.

I keep a SW tank for me, not for the fish. It is a fundamentally selfish act, but so are lots of things we do, so I got over it and am happy doin my thing. I'd rather be free to live and die in the world, than trapped in a comfortable box; but that doesn't mean I have to lie to myself and everybody else and say that I'm doin a good thing.

You can argue that they are not preyed upon as much in aquariums, but I can argue that in the wild at least a few fish get to live to their potential old age, and at least some of them get to reproduce. Is dying during a power outage or auto top-off failure, having never spawned, really so much better than being eaten? I'd risk getting eaten for the chance to spawn at least once or twice in my life, and I bet you would two.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Here's an example (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=575185) of how lucky our fish are because they don't get eaten in out tanks. :rolleyes:

[Vincerama2]

On a more philisophical note: Do fish feel emotions? Stress and fear are survival instincts...do they count as emotions? Do they feel hapiness? Or do they define happiness as lack of fear, stress and hunger?

I agree that it must suck to be a single fish caught in the throes of Pon-Far when there are no fish of your species of the opposite gender around....but now that I think about it, I lived in a comfortable house, without fear of hunger or of being eaten and even in my hight of reproductive frenzy (ie; as a high school boy) I had to live with um, non-reproductive frustration for many years, but I was still pretty happy, and wouldn't give it up to run around the wind-torn steppes, hunting for food and avoiding lions....

;)

V

[Vincerama2]

briefly off-topic ...

Speaking of Pon Far...

Shoestring Reefer, you bum! I had to look up your avatar (based on your "got cylons"tag). Man, that is one cute girl! She's the new Boomer?! Amazing. And a female Starbuck too? Man, too bad I spend all my money on my reef tank instead of cable tv....

Back on topic ...

V

[JamesSamuels]

I just wanted to add that taking any animal from its natural enviroment is inhumane. I read a comment about the the zoo being inhumane, but lets keep in mind that zoos do good jobs of reproducing these animals, not only that but they take in animals that are injured and wont survive on their own. Zoos also provide educational programs about animals. Also there were be no need for zoos, aqauriums, or animal reserves if not for the destructive habits of humans!!! No animal should be kept in the aqautium that is not tank raised, nor should they be kept if breeding is not the major concern of the aquariest.

When humans are gone, this world will thrive with creatures, when the creatures of this world die, humans will go extinct!!!!

[Devilshand]

Ok, JamesSameuls.. thats moving retoric, great emotional tirade. the average american zoo, until the early 70's was the equivelent of a carny side show, except bigger, they won't take lions, tigers, elephants, and other common large animals anymore, because there is just not enough room for them .injures or not. Yes humanes are destructive, always have been always will be, people in the third world have right to eat , just like you do. and if they have to make a penny a day collecting firewood, or searching through the forest for nuts, and berrys( at the expence of the monkeys). They are not gonna care, they have kids too. If no animals are collected that aren.t brought in from the wild, whose going to breed new species in captivity, oh, thats right, public zoos and aquariums, and we all know how well the public aquariums do financially, thank god for kindergarden field trips!
Humans ,by the way are human kinds worst enemy, and we will find away, eventually to do away with ourselves, probably after a great meal of surf and turf,
:D

[Vincerama2]

Originally posted by JamesSamuels
I just wanted to add that taking any animal from its natural enviroment is inhumane.

Makes me wonder what the human's natural environment it? Condos? Houses? Caves? What about homeless people, are we doing enough for them? The world is full of problems, we are evil resource consumers, that's for sure! Just look at the garbage we produce everyweek! Not to mention that we produce so much organic waste because we're such fat b*stards...plus all the resources it takes to feed our fat faces. Now, this is generally "first world" ... how many other species (or actually countries) is it true that the poor and underpriveledged are the fattest? (The theory is that the cheapest food is the unhealthiest ... 25 cent burger at McD's versus having a fridge, stove, pots pans etc to cook your own food)

V

[JamesSamuels]

Ok lets remember yes there are zoos taking in the bigger animals still...Cincinati zoo a little while ago just became the first zoo to mate the wooley rhino an animal quickly going to extinction! What I am hearing is that Humans f*cked up and its ok because we have the right to eat and live. No we have a moral responsibillity to the take care of the creatures we hurt. Zoos and Aquariums do not have to make millions at least there are taking the right steps for the future these days, which the human race can not say for itself. In the 1970's zoos may have been side shows but not any more!!! With the addition of game reserves that can help protect bigger animals while having plenty of space (elephents,lions, tigers).

"people in the third world have right to eat , just like you do. and if they have to make a penny a day collecting firewood, or searching through the forest for nuts, and berrys( at the expence of the monkeys). They are not gonna care, they have kids too. "

Your comment here is true, but the poor are a very very samll part of the destruction, Its commercial logging industires, and goverments....(BUSH....are own natonal preserves are being clear cut) all of which dont supply money to the poor, I think the poor in the third world countires is the least of our problems.

"If no animals are collected that aren.t brought in from the wild, whose going to breed new species in captivity, oh, thats right, public zoos and aquariums, and we all know how well the public aquariums do financially, thank god for kindergarden field trips!"

Also true statement, however, species only have to be breed in captivty when there habitats are threatend, or destroyed by ounce again the human race!! We have to do these things thank god for places like aquariums and zoos who doint make alot of money but care enough to do the right thing!

I am not a person who wishes the human race to be gone, I wish for us to do whats right and protect not only this world but the creatures we share this world with!! Yes were a fat country, Yes we expel alot of waste but how much more can any person on this forum or in the world do? Alot

Thanks for the replies it leads to good conversation!!

[Vincerama2]

I think the brutal part is that the natural resources are being sucked dry ... by a few select fat cats. Fer instance (not to get political!) King Fahd was over here so we could beg him for oil.... how is it that ONE person owns all that resources? It should belong to the whole country, or world, really.

But I won't get political here.

I think the best thing we can do is recycle and keep our wastefulness down to a minimum. That is as "humane" as we can get.

And I think most of us in the hobby are generally humane. And I hate to say it, but if I pay $20 for a fish, I'm gonna try and keep it real happy! Corals probably don't feel misused in our tanks, they might take an occassional fragging, but I think we treat them pretty good, though I'm sure there are a few newbies who brutalize some coral ("What, these corals need to be fed?" or "What's this metal halid thing I keep hearing of? Will it make my clams stop dying?")

Well, do what we can....

V

[phil519]

Guys - let's not get into a political discussion - read the user agreement again and you'll find dropping names (Whether american politicians or other) is against policy.

That being said - if we stay on-topic...

Not all zoos are created equal. Obviously some have the financial muscle to "do things right". If I look at the wildlife conservation society in the ny area - I find that many of the exhibits were dilapitated with large carnivores stuck in cells. This was about 10 years ago. Obviously things have changed but just recently we read about the Monterrey Bay Aquarium trying to keep a great white shark or the aquarium in the new england area killing that huge lobster. Point is - even aquariums can/do mess up.

What was the purpose of keeping that great white? Obviously no one has been able to keep one - and with attendance skyrocketing - let's keep it longer even if it hunts other sharks in the exhibit! (I'm being sarcastic but if you look it up you'll find the great white was released after they found it killed two other sharks).

I think zoos/aquariums are to be commended for reproducing endangered or even common species - but condemned if they are just using the critter to drive up attendance. Disclosure: I personally support the wildlife conservation society in the belief that they do more good than harm.

I agree with diatome - commercial fishing has an enormous "by catch" that badly affects the ecology but no one blinks twice at it unless the critter caught is a long-lived reptile or an air-breathing mammal. I also agree with ozadars point about some of the fish in our tanks being territorial and unlikely to go far in the ocean.

Anyway - like I said flagpull - interesting topic for the brain to mull on...

[angelsil]

Originally posted by kbmdale
AND YES MY DAMSEL WATCHES TV.

Our clowns watch Star Trek with my husband. They're usually on the other side of the tank in the hammer coral, but when he has TV on (specifically Trek for some reason) they swim over to the other end and start bobbing up and down. It's a 125. It's a long swim.

You could say they were attracted to the light, but I think I have geek fishies.

:D

[angelsil]

Originally posted by Vincerama2
I agree that it must suck to be a single fish caught in the throes of Pon-Far

FWIW, I try to keep pairs wherever I can, even if we're not breeding. We have a pair of clowns, a pair of Banggais, and pair of PJ cardinals and now we're looking for a mate for the gramma. If I could sex the mandarin, I'd get her a mate as well.

[Mandarin is new. Think it's a girl, just not sure yet]

Ditto for the gobies. We had a pair of neons, but one died.

Still, a lot of fish in the wild never get old enough to breed. Something like 90% don't make it out of the larval stage. I think everything in life is a balance and responsible reefkeping means doing your best to give your fish a good life and supporting captive breeding and rearing whenever possible. Sometimes, it's just not - like for $800 I could get a tank-raised angelfish. But, hey, I gotta pay my mortgage so I'll either go without or get a wild-caught.

[Devilshand]

I wish for us to do whats right and protect not only this world but the creatures we share this world with!! Yes were a fat country, Yes we expel alot of waste but how much more can any person on this forum or in the world do? Alot


and I do agree!! but lets not forget that extreme groups that seek to change the world,especially American society, seem, to, in my opinion,have rather sinister politcal agendas that go along with there environmental policies, and if a few of them had there way this, forum, this discussion, would be mute.

I think my point earlier was, we all know(at least I think I do) more about the world and mans relation to its environment, because of our hobby,and I think I'am a better person for it, OK, maybe I'm just a bit less objectionable:)

[Reefer Wannabe]

Very thought-provoking thread!

And...it makes me feel better about the 8" hippo tang that I keep in a 1/2 gallon goldfish bowl!

:D

[Devilshand]

:lol:

[Vincerama2]

I suppose we can only do our best;

For individuals, this means;
1) Recycle, rather than throw away garbage (that means hanging onto old batteries until you can bring them somewhere to recycle!)

2) If 150W DE MH bulbs give off more useful light than a 175W SE MH bulb ... spend the extra few bucks to save the 25W of power? Use energy efficient pumps (like the seio pumps, you get lots of flow for little energy usage) ... but I guess the bite of the electricity bill will encourage us enough to save power. I even looked into solar power, but it is so uneconomical, that I can't do it.

3) carpool, mass transit, smaller car ... let's face it, the Hummer H2 is just not cool (It's a Suburban, under all that metal!) Again, the bill at the pump helps this one self-motivating! I even switched to using my motorcycle for daily commuting (40mpg vs 25mpg in my car).

4) Cook. Imagine a world without fast food wrappers ...

OK, that's it for my hippie preaching.

Fish humanity? Feed them and give them clean water, that's humane.

V

[npirate]

Here’s my 2 cents.

There are no absolutes in life, so is it wrong or right who's to say? However,

Are they "safer" in your tank then in the wild? Mine are?

Do they get medical attention when they get sick? Mine do.

Are they guaranteed food every day? Mine are.

Are there harmful chemicals in your tank or pollutants? Not in my tank.

Are they treated like valuable investments? Care for everyday? Treated well?

Damn! Some people don't take care of their kids the way I do my fish.

I learned about corals, fish, inverts and all kinds of other things that I never would have know. I know what a drop of Windex or ammonia can do to my tank. I think about all the people who use cleaners and solvents on their boats and say !@#!@#.

So I say go scratch your !@#$&*. Is what I'm doing moral? Like we haven't all done a hell of a lot worse (intentional or un-intentional)

Spend or time educating one person about this hobby and you'll do more good for these fish then you can do damage.

[saltymight]

Originally posted by Scuba_Dave
Is it humane to lock animals into a zoo?
Is it humane to harvest tens of thousands of pounds of fish for food?
Is it humane to raise cattle just to slaughter them for food?

I think, if they had the choice, they would choose the
tank vs the grille

I take good care of my fish, as I would hope others do

The cow thing...we eat we need to but most of the way we treat many animals is diffently wrong..The way veil is made....baby cows tied down so they cant move for more tender meat. and chicken and turkeys now have so large breasts that they can bearly walk on there own to feet. that is what i dont like about way people treat animals...I rather eat something smiling then wanting to die. good meat is happy meat.

[saltykirk]

I made a mistake opening this thread........

[Devilshand]

. [/B][/QUOTE] . good meat is happy meat. [/B][/QUOTE]

:confused: :eek1::) :):D :D :D :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Vincerama2]

Originally posted by saltymight
and chicken and turkeys now have so large breasts that they can bearly walk on there own to feet.

So, if growth hormones given to beef get absorbed my humans to (inadvertantly) make kids grow bigger, then what happens to kids who eat these chickens and turkeys? Hmmmm ... maybe that's why they serve chicken wings at Hooters... ;)

... and now back to our regularly scheduled non-piglike thread ...

I think keeping a reef tank is humane IF we take good care of it. The best we can do is research things before we buy them so we know how to take care of them. Don't buy "painted glass fish" from the freshwater section of the local Pet Borg, for instance. Don't put a Mandarin Dragonet in a bare bottom FO tank, etc...

And don't let your animals suffer because you're too lazy to do a water change!

V

[benjavan]

People keep using the reproduction argument as a method of being "more humane"

Consider this:

In an ecologicaly stable environment, populations of species do not grow or shrink, they simply maintain thier numbers. That means that a breeding pair in its lifetime is successful if it simply replaces itself.

An average pair of clownfish produces around 500 eggs per spawn. (depending on species). They spawn about every 2 weeks. Clownfish can live for more than 20 years. That is about 250,000 eggs to produce TWO adult clownfish!

Many many fish on the reef never get the oppurtunity to spawn. Robbing our tank inhabitants of that "oppurtunity" is really quite natural and should not be considered "in-humane"

This does not undercut our responibility to support captive breeding programs. It simply means that we arent being cruel to our fish if they dont get to spawn.

[KingDiamond]

Some folks previously in this post talked of zoo and aquariums as doing thier best but were critical of some things that are do to make money ie.. Moneray Bay aquarium displaying the Great White Shark. What you must keep in mind is that when a zoo or aquarium displays an animal to be a "draw" that much of the money goes to concervation. Actually breeding animals in captivity and than putting them back in the wild is not very feasable anymore. Introduceing animals that have spent time in captivity back into the wild more often then not can cause problem with introduction of diseases into an ecosystem that are not there already. This can cause serious problems with the animals that are already part of that ecosystem and have devistateing effects. Today zoos/aquariums try to focus more on education and funding concervation in the wild rather than actual reintroduction.

Brad

[Scoobaman17]

I have thought about that question as well. I have dived in many parts ranging from florida to cabo san lucas. The thing I try and do is when I go to the store I look more towards tank raised animals. Like corals fraged from pre excisting corals in other tanks. I never buy wild caught coral. As far as fish go. I buy what I see most of and what is very good in a reef tank. I would never go for fish that should stay in the wild like a feather star. They are beautiful but should stay in the wild. They are almost impossible to keep in captivity. "Research".

[saltymight]

Originally posted by Vincerama2
So, if growth hormones given to beef get absorbed my humans to (inadvertantly) make kids grow bigger, then what happens to kids who eat these chickens and turkeys? Hmmmm ... maybe that's why they serve chicken wings at Hooters... ;)

Well now most girls will begind there cycle at the age of about 11 3/4...because of all the additvies in meat now but yes back to tanks.

...
V

[TheVillageIdiot]

a tiger at the zoo here in atlanta has better dental coverage than i do... :)

[Devilshand]

prisoners doing life , with no chance of parole, do too

[Vincerama2]

Hmmm...instead of "prisoners" Imagine instead the castaways on Gilligans Island. They are NOT in some barren cell, they have food and possible mates (Ginger or Mary Ann, the eternal debate! ;) ) A very nice setting, no predators (OK, the occasianal cannibals make it to the island).

Not a bad life really!

V

[Devilshand]

and possible mates (Ginger or Mary Ann


:D uh yea, skipper and and guillagen were all over that!

there's a reason, perhaps, that we question our highly developed and well explored treatment of our fellow inhabitants of the big blue ball,

well intentioned guilt,



:D

makes ya' think!

[TheVillageIdiot]

along w/ the prison analogy... nobody's getting raped in the zoo... well... anyway, i'd not mind prison so much if it:

a) was designed to look like my natural habitat
b) included a suitable mate


tbh, i don't now about "humane"...

[Vincerama2]

prison analogy ... what if you were just minding your own business in your own living room, when suddenly you are overcome by cyanide, then you wake up in prison, with no chance at parole?

V

[loyalty]

i am the god of my reef..what is all this talk of being humane?:D

[Vincerama2]

Originally posted by loyalty
i am the god of my reef..what is all this talk of being humane?:D

On the first day, He created Water, and mixed it with salt did he!
On the second day, He added heat! The mercury rose that day!
On the third day, He added sand and rock! Lo was the sandstorm swirling!
On the fourth day, He added plumbing! And Sumpage! And Pumpage! The waters moved that day!
On the fifth day, He added a skimmer! Many a bubble was born that day!
On the sixth day, he said "Let there be Light!" and the Metal Halides blazed away, showing the glory of what He had created!
On the seventh day, he rested and waited for the cycle!

... and now they waited for the coming of the Coral

V

[TheVillageIdiot]

V,

would it be safer than my living room? i'm something of an exhibitionist... i might like being watched all day long... :)

[Devilshand]

Originally posted by TheVillageIdiot
V,

would it be safer than my living room? i'm something of an exhibitionist... i might like being watched all day long... :)

Yea and we might as well throw in a big pinch of prime reef flake(ON), and a couple squirts of micro vert(kent), You might get a little hungry! a water change is planned for next year, the prism skimmer will make everything
O.K. because...

it was expensive!!!

Is what we do humane?

In the end, I believe its a matter of personal perspective(go figure!).
Humans haven't done a good job of treating each other
humanely, dar 4, kasavo(sp?), yugoslavia(and all the hell), the tutsi's, and the hutu's, pol pot and his guys, hitler and friends, communism,

unfortunatley, I'am interested in the search of an answer, of a question that I will never be able to fully partake in, there is a defintion of humane(sorry repeat) It (the word humane)is marked by compassion,sympathy,or consideration'

yea, I meet that on a dailey basis,:mad

fortunatley not at the end of a ak47, or machete,
:rolleyes:

I don't eat fish, they taste bad, I will however sell'em to people , to support myself,
somewhere, someplace, someone, is looking at a human being the same way.

and they aren't wondering about what's humane,

The reefs may have it good, sensible people are concerned ,:

[Vincerama2]

Hey, who knows, maybe humans were originally from a planet 10 trillion times the size of earth named "Paradise" and we got captured by Vogons and this puny Earth is our aquarium. Do we miss the Nectar of the Zoogoo tree? Or the monthly Orgy of the Virgin Snargraffs? We don't, because we know nothing about them! Does my tank raised (whatever) miss the ocean? (OK, maybe my wild captured one does) All my coral is grown out from frags from trading...they've never known the "wild". And they get fed pretty well.

Let's face it, humans aren't very humane. All we can do is our best...so keep reading and don't skimp on something your fish/coral needs (like a good skimmer) just because it's expensive. Raising kids is expensive too, but you aren't going to let them eat our of the dumpster because baby food is too expensive!

V

[puffermantis]

I love keeping my puffers-2 green spotted 1 Figure8.They are wild caught and I,too sometimes wonder the ethics of taking these animals from there vast ecosystem and put them in these tanks for our amusement.But,when my F8 is waddling aroung the tank with a full tummy,and knows(because he's been here quite a while)there isn't any predators to worry with, no days of missing meals and the "big giant hand of food" coming everyday to bring his favorite inverts.I think he's happy.When he goes in his own 35g tank in a week or two, then he'll be real happy.

[Devilshand]

yea, we are human, can't help it, not necessarily proud of it,we realise our failings, that is one of our strenghts ( americans are especially attuned to this). some humans are what they are, and can only be trusted to be what they are, the rest of us, who question, may never find what we are lookin for, looking at ourselves and our motives and intentions, the solutions are not easily acquired, questioning what is humane, putting in doubt what we hold in our hearts as true, as individuals, " the unexamined life is not worth living"socretes, this grounds been covered before, by someone with a bigger brain and an opposable thumb that is more nimble than mine,

the tide in the collection of tropical fish and invertebrates, as it is,will flow in the direction of searching for the new, different , or unexploited, this will never change, its what interests the masses, and feeds the family,

a capatalist society( the only succesfull economic system so far)

is built, in many ways, on desire,,, not need,, and those who have dreams of status, fullfilling of curusoity , and the need to OWN, will use there discretionary income to obtain the unique. In the cult of" What can I have and What can I afford" the members crave it,

it sets them apart ,