Pic's and Cycling Question...

[jay24k]

Well it's been awhile since I've cycled so maybe a few could give me a few tips. On my 180, I have it filled up and everything in it. The sand I put too much of in, but I'll scoop that out.

Questions now:
Particles in the water... I assume they are sand. Once bacteria hits them, they should drop right?
I have my skimmer off hoping to get the cycle started. I figure after it starts, I'll fire the bad boy up.
I added some mysis cubes 2 days ago and 2 large shrimp yesterday. I'm still seeing no ammonia. Is it because of the water volume?
When should I add macro algae to my fuge? I was thinking after the cycle.

Anything I can do to start the cycle quicker? Beside peeing in the tank :)

Here is a picture of the old tank I'm moving over and the new tank with 100 lbs of base rock.

I built the canopy and stand myself. Once I move my 44 over, I'll hook up my other 6' VHO and other Metal Halide in the middle.

My 44 gallon. At the time I just cleaned it so some stuff isn't opened. Also my mushrooms aren't as full now as I traded quite a few.
http://home.comcast.net/~jay24k/april2005/aprilwholetank.jpg

Here is my 180 tank w/ water.
http://home.comcast.net/~jay24k/cycle/tankfrontrock.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~jay24k/cycle/tankangle.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~jay24k/cycle/leftsiderock.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~jay24k/cycle/rockright.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~jay24k/cycle/lightlidup.jpg

Pic of Sump with ASM skimmer. Notice the black silicone :) Got the wrong color and was too lazy to run back to the store.

http://home.comcast.net/~jay24k/cycle/sump.jpg

[jay24k]

I got one more question for you quiet non posting people :)

On my digital thermometer, my temp is showing almost 82 with no lights on. The inside temp is showing 79 however we keep our air set around 77. Could it be off by two degrees? All I have running is a Seio 1100 and my Iwaki 1200 gph external pump. The canopy back is open but the bottom is sealed off. Should that be open to? I was hoping to minimize the pump noise.

Thanks

[floridajhawk]

with your lighting off it should not be that high temp at all

[floridajhawk]

throw some store bought scrimp in your tank and that will help start ur cycle, as for temp difference it is a possibility that digital and the other can be reading slightly different

[jay24k]

I tossed in some shrimp 2 days ago but still no ammonia. I tossed in 2 large ones. Should I add more? Total water volume is around 220 gallons

[floridajhawk]

interesting any damsels in the tank ?

[floridajhawk]

i threw in 6 jumbos in my 55 when i cycled it last year before i got the larger tank

[MORAY]

I would get the base rock in and move some of your live rock over to start it seeding. You can put some of the base rock into your 44 to help get it started too. I would get any that you will be adding in to there to help get it going. If not, get some of your rock over into it, and you can start exchanging water between your existing tank and your new one and that will help. Also, you could get some live sand to seed it with and even use some out of your present tank. After it had been running I moved my yellow tang over and kept him in alone for several weeks but continuing to move water between the two and increasing the amount as I got closer. That's what I did when I was moving from one tank to the next but patience really pays off with this.

There are some preloaded bacterial solutions that claim to speed up the process but I never tried any.

I didn’t rinse the sand well enough when I set my 135 up and that silt in the water didn’t go away so after 3 days although I had some settling it was really cloudy.. I can see the silt on your protein skimmer. It’s kind of a mess. I used a prefilter that I clogged on one end from an RO/DI on one of the drain lines and it cleared it up really well.

Is the digital probe in the water or is it just mounted on the glass? 82 does sound kinda high without having any lights running in a room that 77 but digital thermometers are usually very accurate. I know the Iwaki with the American motor do transfer more heat but you probably have something else going on. Is there a heater at the wrong setting by chance? Get another thermometer to check it again. There are some very accurate digitals for cooking that you can pick up cheaply. If it is staying 82 without lights running on it and the room is 77 then there is something driving that temp up besides your Iwaki and Seio. But, I’m not clear if you are saying the digital is measuring the actual water temp or not.

[jay24k]

Well originally I thought I could just transfer the whole tank over since the base rock was just dead but I was worried with the extra volume of water that I might have an issue. I'd still like to do that.

The digital thermometer is in the water. It measurers outside and inside temps. The air in the house is now showing a bit better but the one in the tank was showing higher. I didn't check this morning to see the temps. Granted I am going to use 4 fans for evaporating cooling. I don't mind temps around 82 with the lights on but couldn't figure out why it was high without.

The Iwaki gives off a nice hum as well so I'm thinking down the road of switching it to a similiar pump but quieter. Maybe one of the darts.

Would you say it would be safe enough to pull the shrimp out if I detect no ammonia and then transfer everything over and then not add anything for about a month to give the new rock time to get beneficial bacteria on it?

[deano488]

Is the thermometer the stickey kind?? the ones on the glass are never accurate. The glass accepts the heat of the lights much faster than water. IMO you should have a probe in the middle of the tank. Dean

[jay24k]

I have the probe in my sump. in the return chamber. It does stick to the glass but it reads on a remote unit.

The one I got was this one..
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=RB1313

[Navymedic]

I would go along the lines that Moray has said, I have never cycled any of my tanks using shrimp (I like them with garlic and butter :D ) I have always used LSnLR, and popped in some hermits/snails to provide cleanup, stir up the sand, and leave poop around to help with cycling ;) I would not remove the shrimp, leave it there, I would put in 20-25 hermits and snails to take care of the shrimp, I would also seed with LS and LR out of your 44/fuge (or buy some fresh LR from TBSW or Triton).
Check your temp with another source(s) just to check your tank, I have 3 thermamoters in different places throughout my system, and plan on a digital/remote in the near future...Keep us updated... :)

[jay24k]

You think it would be safe to move my whole 44 over since it is already established? I won't be adding any new fish probably for 3 weeks anyway. I'll check to see if I have any ammonia today and if I don't, I think I might move everything over. I'm also thinking I might go to TBS this weekend and go ahead and get it so I can get a mini cycle.

[jay24k]

Well cancel that about TBS. They told me they don't have any quality rock in for Saturday. So unless someone has a reason why it won't work out, I'm going to try to move quite a bit of my rock from my current tank and some sand and then Saturday if I still see nothing major move some more and then maybe Sunday finish moving it all.

The sand still blowing around shouldn't be too big of a problem though right? I still see small specs in the tank and I wouldn't want them to cause any problems for my corals when I do move. Here is a list of them. I just want them to get stressed with the move. Of course I'll make sure Alk and Calcium is at the levels it needs to be.

Corals I have:
Ricordia - both Yuma and Florida
Mushrooms
Xenia
Moon coral
Cap's - Orange and Green
Green slimer
Enchinata (sp)
Zoas
Green Acro
2 Clams
Green,Oranage, purple digitata
Rose Bta
Another piece tha tlooks like Xenia but doesn't pulse forgot name.

[donald altman]

capnella? or anthelia ?

[jay24k]

anthelia.

[jay24k]

Well I was wondering if my test kit was bad or not so I had a friend take some water to test it. He is showing it at .6 so it appears I'm in cycle which is ok with me. I did move over 2 pieces of cured rock from my other sump as well. Since I'll be gone for awhile in California, I'll let it cycle nice and well.

Guess it's time to order some new test kits. Mine was an old hagen one about a year and a half. I didn't think these things went bad.

[MORAY]

The only thing that happens quickly in a reef tank is dissaster. I waited many weeks before transferring my 55 to the 135 and I would recommend you do this slowly. Don't try and move your sand bed but instead use the 44 sand bed to seed your new tank.

[Navymedic]

I heard of people having problem when moving the sand bed but I have done it numerous times (usually from a smaller tank to a larger tank) and didnt have a problem :? When I have done this my tanks have cycled REALLY fast, since Jay is going to cali anyway I don't think it will be a problem, his problem will be the livestock, I hate putting a clam and BTA in at least untill 2 weeks...

[jay24k]

Yea I rather this go slow but I was getting a little impatient. Must be a man thing :)

My sand bed in my 44 is very very thin. I don't know if I could even add much that would be worth it but I'll try. I don't know if I'll add all of it as I like the fine fine sand we have as the way it is going now, it looks really natural the way the sand has dunes in it like a desert.

Thanks for all the suggestions and hopefully the move will be ok soon. I tested the salt mix which was 150 gallons of coralife that someone gave me with the tank and the rest I'm finishing off my oceanic. Alk was low around 7 and calcium only 350 w hich I was a bit suprised. I'm not going to mess around with those till I get back.

You guys know where I can get some pickling lime for top offs around here?

[VERVE]

I can't help you but I just wanted to say you have a beautiful tank and a gorgeous stand

[MORAY]

You can order pickling lime here and it comes pretty quickly.
http://store.yahoo.com/mrswages/mrswagpiclim.html

I tried using it for a while but I just have better results and stability using Ocean's Blend.

Jay, I was sensing your impatience, and impatience has lead to more dissasters than I can count. Think long term success and you can still play with the tank. Get your sand and rock seeding in the meantime and you can move a hardy fish over.

I made a batch of saltwater one time where I had 10-20 gallons of IO made and added about 10-20 RO/DI to the vat to have more water and I used Tropic Marin to finish it. The two salts reacted and I had a very visible fallout. So, I threw it away. You may have some salt interaction in yours.

[jay24k]

Well as I do water changes with the Tropic Marin, I'm going to do only 10% max to accimilate the tank to it. Hopefully everything goes ok. I've read of several who did the switch. Also with me mixing coralife and oceanic now won't have too much of an affect as it is cycling. I'll order the pickling lime from there.

I've had good success with my fuge light on opposite rotation of my halides with my ph. However, I have a hard time keeping calc and alk up in my 44 with ocean blends. And with a 180, I'd think it would take alot to keep it up.

I'm ordering more test kits though. My salifert calcium test keeps showing 350 on calcium. I added about 160ml of calcium in my 44 over a whole day according to a calculator on the web from here to raise it up. I tested 2 days later, and it is still showing 350. Alk I can't raise up past 8.

[MORAY]

The key to using 2-part is getting the numbers up and in balance. It took me a long time to get my calcium up when I first was using it too, but when everthing came in line I was able to cut back and everything was very stable. But, as the coral mass grew I had to raise it over time. Eventually I had to supplement magnesium on occasion. But, IO is only at 1050 for magnesium so doing water changes was dropping my Mag. So, now I add magnesium to my water before the salt.

I had too many PH swings with the limewater.

[jay24k]

I'll have to keep that in mind. I noticed with IO, I never got corraline for over a year. I switched to OCeanic and got corraline, but hair algae too. I think I'd rather have no corraline. But I hate to waste salt so I'll finish this bucket up and go to Tropic Marin.

Thanks for the compliments on the tank. Spent alot of hours into that stand.

[MORAY]

Coralline algae really increases with high magnesium. Most sps will have noticeable increased growth. When you get everything stabilized drive your magnesium to 1350, which will tank quite a bit of magnesium and time especially in your 180. Then watch your coralline take off, and more importantly sps corals.

Those calculators don't seem to work for me either, but I don't think they have everything factored in. Their recommended amounts for magnesium weren't even close. Once you acheive a number then it's much easier to maintain.

Changing your salts around may add to the time to get all your levels balanced because they use different formulas and chemicals. Overall, I’ve been pretty happy with IO, but now I add magnesium to every batch, but I add it before the salt.

A key to reef tank success is things being in balance. Randy Holmes Farley has some great information in his Reef Chemistry forum. I don’t know if you go to many meetings but Russell Whitney is a pretty good source in the club for reef chemistry. He has opened my eyes to quite a bit.

[jay24k]

Yea I've been reading alot of his articles. I never messed with magnesium until reading about it. I went ahead and bought more test kits including magnesium as my calcium and alk test kits are almost finished. Is there a certain magnesium that you like? I notice you have a large tank as well. It's nice to see what people use and run on their tanks.

[MORAY]

Well, it seems there are visible improvements that start when you cross 1300 in magnesium with 1350-1400 being a good target. Go for 1350 initially, but do not raise it more that 60-100 at a time. This is going to take a while. You may find your calcium comes up easier and maintains better when you have a good magnesium level.

Test it and post where it is and I can give you some more info. It's a good idea to test your alkalinity too.

If you put some live rock into your 180 you can see the dramatic effect magnesium has on growing coralline algae.

[jay24k]

I did put some liverock from my old sump in the new tank however it isn't much at all. I wanted to transfer more but I wouldn't have any spots for the corals I'd have to remove. Does it have to be live for the corraline to grow on though? MY bosses tank grows it insane and any rock he puts in (usually base) has it covered in weeks. Granted, he does have power compacts but it is insane still.

My test kits come in hopefully Wednesday and I'll post my results. I did buffer for alk with baking soda so I'll see where that is and I'm going to do the same with calcium over the next couple days.

[Versus]

Personally I just chuck hermits in and feed the lil guys ADDing strontium and bronium has always helped also, and dumping half a bottle of kent phyto or marine snow in ( something cheap ) , like stated above crab pooh really gets the cycle going. DOG LOG DOG LOG DOG LOG , sorry.

Oh , and use silver sides to feed the hermits ... Silver sides have all the juicy guts in em which contain more ammonia when decaying that shrimp meat does.


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[jay24k]

I never used super fine sand. The last tank I used was all TBS. This one I'm using super fine white play sand. Does the sand ever settle? It's clear but I still see lots of sand everywhere. After 2 days, all my rocks have sand all over it. Should I hook up a fluval or something to filter the sand out? Or after time will the bacteria cause it to settle?

Thanks

[MORAY]

If I were you I would get a filter to pull that out. I used a pre filter for a RO with one end clogged and it did a great job. The key is to rinse sand really well before putting it in. One of life's lessons.

With the water parameters right you will see coralline forming on your base rock in 2-4 weeks. Mix the live rock pieces in and it will start to seed. You may want to get a few pounds of new live sand to seed your sand.

[donald altman]

it takes awhile.. mine took about a week or more but finally settled you will like that sand alot better then the other sand you had.

I use a small turkey baster to gently blow off the sand that got on the rocks.. as the bacteria grows in the sand it will eventualy be weighted and settle down

[jay24k]

I risned the sand really good but it still is quite a bit. I'll try getting a fine filter and see if that helps in a week. I'm going to toss a cup of sand from my old tank in my new one. I like the look of the new sand better so I'll toss it in behind a rock where you don't see it.

[jay24k]

Got another question since I'm running into this issue. I'm getting massive micro bubbles in the tank. Thought it was sand but with the sump pump off, the tank is crystal clear.

I asked on another forum and they mentioned filter sock or more baffles. Any other options? I'm going to add 2 to 3 more baffles but really don't want to do a filter sock. I really don't want to reduce the flow of the 1200 gph iwaki.

Any other ideas?

[MORAY]

You might reduce them by raising the water level in your sump. Also, put an elbow fitting to the bulkhead where your pump is and point it down. That can help a lot in some situations. Try and see if you can find where it's occuring. Usually, the protein skimmer is a source.

[jay24k]

I have a 45 where the water enters the sump. I can try putting a 90 there. The skimmer I turned off and it doesn't help. The water flows through there pretty quick so that doesn't seem to help as the bubbles are going through all the baffles.

I'm going to try the following.

1.Put 90's on my drain pipes and have it just below the water surface pushing water toward one side farthest from the baffles.

2. Put 2 to 4 extra baffles somewhere to help.

3. Change that 45 to 90 like you mentioned - can't hurt.

4. Drill a hole in the drain pipe 1 inch above the water. I'd rather not use a filter sock or sponge because I want this tank to be a little less maitenance.

I get alot of bubbles coming from the drains so I'm thinking maybe it's that. Do you guys have any recommendations on cutting pvc in place? I was thinking of something like a dremel or one of those rotary cutting blades but wasn't sure if that would work. I'm wondering if I built some type of drain that went horizontal with enough holes in it that the water would drain slower out of each piece and leave the end open. Would this slow the water down more?

I measured my levels and magesium was 960 and will take 1 gallon roughly to raise it up lol. Calcium is at a dead 400 and alk is 11. Ammonia is 0 and didn't get to nitrite so my cycle is either over or close. Skimmer pulled out some funk nasty stuff.