Sigh.. Need some help please

[sirhelm]

Hey boys and girls...


Well after waiting for 10 days to get my Quiet one 6000 to replace my Mag 24.....

I hook everything up and :mad2: pump is just as loud as was the mag 24. I have it sitting on rubber, connected to 1" pvc in and out. The thing is freaking loud.

I don't know if it is the pump or what. I can't believe that I would strike out twice with pumps. Man I thought that he Quietone would be somewhat freaking gosh darn it quiet.

Well not only that.... My dursos seem not be working either. Not only is there flushing sounds, but a gazillion bubbles.

I am about to take a sledgehammer to the whole thing.......

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Where did I put that sledge hammer!!!!

SH

[JsL30629]

I had a 3000 before and it was half as loud as a mag 7. I didn't have a 6000, but I'm sure it's quietness is inherited through the product line. Maybe you got unlucky twice? Maybe it's your plumbing and it has a lot of bends and back pressure?

[sirhelm]

mmmm......It could be my plumbing.

I may have to change the layout of the return. Remove the T off the return as it enters the tank, but instead shoot strait in with one return.

Never thought of that.

I am off to play with the dursos... need to drill a bigger hole.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what is causing the bubbles??

SH

[JsL30629]

Try running both pumps unrestricted. That way, you can tell if it's your plumbing or not.

I don't have any experience with dursos or micro bubbles. Sorry.

[sirhelm]

Well I only have one 6000. The other is a 4000 sitting in the box. PLan to attach to my skimmer. But that is a project for another day. The pump is running full out right now.

I took some pics of the setup. I will post later.

I shudder to think of the feedback. Probably will never be able to show my face at another BAR or SEBAY meeting again!!

LOL

Sh

[sfsuphysics]

Try lifting the pump off any surface (ie keep it submerged but dont let it touch the sides/bottom of the sump) it really should not be loud at all, if it is still loud then there might be some sand or something caught in the thing, try taking the impeller out, if its not loud it could be a vibration through the pipes.

As to the dursos... do you mean you hear water rushing faster ending with a slurp? If so sounds like you dont have enough holes on the top of the endcap.

[sirhelm]

Hey Mike,

Yeah I think re: the dursos that is it. The water drops rapidly, and then rises.. drops, rises, etc...

I went to the durso website and that is the exact issue with too small of a hole.

Re: the pump ( I swear to god, these things will be the end of me...).. it is external right now.

D

[sirhelm]

here are some pics



http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2845.JPG

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2847.JPG

http://http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2849.JPG

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2846.JPG

[sirhelm]

Some more pics

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2849.JPG

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2848.JPG

[sid700]

Try attaching the pump to vinyl hoses and minimize the amount of air in the pump. That worked for me.

Also, my durso quieted down after I put a ball valve in the outlet. I adjusted the ball valve so that the flow to sump is equal to the return flow.

[capescuba]

Hard to tell from the picks, but do you have both of your returns teed into one? This could be causing the gurgle. I would keep them seperate and also consider adding some ball valves on the outlets as Bernie mentioned.

Where in the Bay are you? If you are not too far from me I would swing out and see if I could help ...

[sirhelm]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the advice.

Tonight I will be playing with the hole size on the durso's. That I that should fix that issue of the gurgling, etc....

Re: the plumbing, I have the one 1" return pipe Teed off behind the tank with 3/4" reducers then into the unequal lenth 3/4" pipe...

Honestly there are about 3 90's after the Tee in each side. I am wondering if I am getting back pressure from that horrible setup?

Cape, I am located in South San Jose, off of Camden.

Where u located?

That would be awesome if you were close by!!

SH

[capescuba]

I'm in the East Bay - way out, sorry ..

[sirhelm]

LOL.. No Problem,

Thanks for the offer tho!! :strooper:


You going to the sebay meeting tommorrow??

D

[Bamm Bamm]

YOu have two many bends everywhere limiting your flow and your water going into the sump... Those pvc's going into the sump should be angled going into the sump to help lower noise and I'd recomend possibly using some of the SPA FLex on your return it's alot quieter than the standard PVC in my expierence..

[sirhelm]

Yeah... I have 2 90's on each drain. However with the stand size I was forced to go that way. That is okay for now. Currenty the overflows seem to be faster than the Pump so I am good for now.

[sirhelm]

Is that SPA flex.... Flexible PVC???

will it take standard ballvalves unions and gate valves?

And of course where would I get it?

Thanks


SH

[Bamm Bamm]

Yeah it will take all stand pvc fitting and glue... You can get it at Home Depot. Lowes Orchard Ace

[bookfish]

I recently had to quiet down an external pump and the thing that made the greatest impact was putting a gel bicycle seat pad under the pump instead of rubber or foam. These can also be had as computer wrist rests.-Jim

[Bamm Bamm]

hmmm good Idea Jim...

Sir Helm.. I was having some noise issues with my mag 9.5 until recently.. It ws just sitting on the styrofoam that is also underneath the sump(well actually the same stuff is underneath all of my tanks) but anyways I put a mouse pad underneath my mag 9.5 and now it's completely silent..

[sfsuphysics]

Before you rush out to get some spa flex tubing, trying to understand where the sound is coming from, is it coming from a rattling noise in the pump? (disconnect it and stick it in a bucket of water to see if it makes the same sound). If so replacing with spa flex isn't going to help.

[Apon]

The old custom sealife's pump are really quite...... I almost can't tell ther are on, but they do give off heat. I think this company sells them now. reefgeek sells them.

Velocity Titanium Water Pump - T4
Manufacturer: Laing Thermotech
Dimensions: 7" x 4.8" x 5" (L x W x H)

[sirhelm]

Thanks Bamm Bamm....

I know there is vibration from the pump and it is traveling along the pVC, but I need to be able to comapre how quiet the pump should be. I am going to test the 4000 this weekend on the skimmer to see how quiet it is.

Bookfish..... I may do that. The foam that I have now is pretty rigid. Maybe a nice gel cushion will help.

Guys thanks a lot for your help. I am a bit more calmed down than I was last night. So I can go into the weekend now and try some of these solutions!!

BTW with the single 1" return spliting into 2 3/4 returns (unequal lengths... Which means 3/4 return gets more water flow), should I be getting rid of that and just use 1 single 3/4 return from the 1"?

That would remove approx 4 90's and aprox 1 ft of horizontal run as well.


BTW Cape.... did tou see the overflows? Is yours bigger? I had to cut most of the 90" street Ell and the T to get those Dursos to fit in them.

SH

[Bamm Bamm]

I have a 4000 AND IT'S REALLY QUIET(I'M NOT USING IT FOR A RETURNJUST YET THOUGH ONLY TO MIX UP MY WATER....I have hear the 6000s are noisy though.

[sirhelm]

I will take the 6000 offline and see what it does in a bucket of water.

The Mag 24 was still loud in the bucket. I will see how well this one fares!!!

I just want to get everything up and running... ..

Down the road, I am sure that I Will be looking at getting another pump for a closed loop.

But that is far far far away.... LOL


SH

[ejamsrhere]

It's the PVC... 99% sure.

[DanielMar]

If you have bubbles you have a way that the air is getting in. Consider repiping the suction section to the pump.
Daniel

[sirhelm]

Okay update.....

I got the dursos to work. Just had to drill a bigger hole and they are running smoothly.

Re: the Quiet One 6000. I took it offline and ran it in a bucket of water. It ran realtivly quiet. There is some small ticking sounds... so I took it apart. Looked fine. Some small plastic scrapes around the magnet. Ceramic shaft looks fine.

Re-Connected and put a nice soft hand towel under it (wife is going to freak!!!--- ) It seemed to run more quiet.

However the vibrations generated by the pump are running up the pvc in both directions. This is causing the entire 30 gallon sump to resonate (can acrylic resonate???). Making the majority of the noise.

Also... the pump rated at 1500GPH at 0 head... is out drawing my overflows at approx 7' of head. That means I am not getting water into the sump at approx 1000GPH. Looks like I am getting approx 800-900GPH.

Also to top things off, the tank is not entirely level :eek1: . Tilts a bit towards the right side. This is causing or could cause overlow issue on that side. While the left side is apprix 1" below the top.. the right side is right at the top.


So it looks like I am going to have to modify the drainage pipes to increase the drain rate. Probably have to remove one of the 90's on each and drop in a couple of 45's

Also found out where the air was coming from. The pump was causing a vortex due to suction in the drain area of the sump. This occasionally broke the surface and sucked in air.

Also, I finally got a look at the Quiet one 4000 that I order, it was scratched up to hell. Plus they had the intake strainer jammed in, and it will not come off. So this POS is going back to ThatfishPlace for a replacement.


Re: the pvc pipe on the return I may just remove the hard PVC and replace with flex PVC.

Questions

1) Is the replacment of the PVC to flex going to really decrease the amount of vibration/resonance causing the noise issues?

2) Should I just go to plastic tubing for the return?


That is all for now!

SH

[Marc Daniels]

Derek-


"1) Is the replacment of the PVC to flex going to really decrease the amount of vibration/resonance causing the noise issues?
2) Should I just go to plastic tubing for the return?"

I had the same problem runing a Gen-X PCX 100 hard plumbed with all PVC. It was noisy as hell. You could try placing a length flex coming off the pump in an attmept that it will act as a dampner and kill the vibration. The next step would be to replace it all with flex if it's a problem.

Marc

[sirhelm]

Thanks Marc.

Good idea. I will replace the drain from the sump to the pump with flex and see if that is enough damping.

BTW did you get my PM re: the package??

SH

[Marc Daniels]

Got the PM thanks. We had our club (MARS) meeting tonight with Mike Paletta. Great presentation.

[sirhelm]

Cool!! Win any raffle prizes??

I am going to the Sebay meeting tommorrow night.

Looking forward to that!

SH

[sfsuphysics]

Also to top things off, the tank is not entirely level . Tilts a bit towards the right side. This is causing or could cause overlow issue on that side. While the left side is apprix 1" below the top.. the right side is right at the top.

EEK!
Does the tank have anything other than water in it yet?? If not now would be an excellent time to drain as much as you can and level that tank.

[Marc Daniels]

No, when I was buying them I also bought $10 for my buddy...gave him half the tickets and he won 3 times.

[sirhelm]

Hey Physics,

The tank already has 3" SB in it already.

I think the floor is not entirely level. I know I used a level on it (the tank)and it seemed to be level initially. However as I added water it became evident that it was not level. THe floor has been re-inforced with extra posts so I am not too concerned about that.

However the water not being entirely level would not be a concern if I could keep the water level lower in the tank.

I am going to play with the teed return off of the pump to divert more water back into the sump. That should allow me more water in it to prvent the vortex as well as lowering the water in the tank.

Marc... luck of the draw eh?

;)

SH

[Marc Daniels]

He could have at least thrown me a bone!

[sfsuphysics]

Well a 3 inch sand bed isn't that much weight, its all that water (what was it 180gallon tank?) you issue with being unlevel isn't the floor its the uneven stress put on the tank. If you have rubbermaid cans/buckets that you used sitting around drain as much water as possible and put some shims under the stand to make it level. But again its up to you, its just easier to do it when draining the tank is possible (ie no fish yet)

[Marc Daniels]

While the left side is apprix 1" below the top.. the right side is right at the top

That is quite a lean, and the stress will build up over time. I agree that it needs to be more level.

Marc

[sirhelm]

mmmm........... so you guys think that the tank or the stand could have a faliure with it not being level? or is it more of a flooding issue?


Later on I will take some pics of it so you guys can see the lean.

I wonder if I pumped the water out could I get some shims under the stand with the help of a couple of my friends lifting the stand an inch or so?

Or do you guys recommend taking everything down and starting over?

btw i have 4 chromis and approx 59 blh and 50 snails

sh

[sirhelm]

Correction on the measurement. It is about 1/2 inch off from left to right.

SH

[sirhelm]

Here are some pics. The third one is at an angle, but makes the tank look like it is leaning 30 degrees... lol

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2850.JPG

This is the best shot I can get to get the whole tank in. You can see the water level from left to right


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2851.JPG

Just a nice shot of the chromis. No relevance at all!! LOL

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2852.JPG

The angle really exagerates the lean!!

[sirhelm]

More Pics. First one is the shot at the left corner. The next one is the shot at the right corner. The third shot is of the level ruler at the middle of the tank

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2853.JPG

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2854.JPG

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2855.JPG

Thanks

SH

[Marc Daniels]

Does the level show that same position at different positions on the top of the tank & stand, hiow about the floor? Just trying to figure what is out of kilter.

[sirhelm]

Good point Marc.

Okay here are some more pics

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2857.JPG

Left side of tank


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2858.JPG

[sirhelm]

More Pics


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2860.JPG

Left side on stand


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2859.JPG

Middle of stand

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2861.JPG

Right side of stand

[sirhelm]

Final 3pics pretty blurry...

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2864.JPG

left side floor

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2863.JPG

middle floor

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/25266128_2862.JPG

Right side of floor


Thanks

SH

[Marc Daniels]

Since the floor seems to be the culprit...
If it was my tank, I would break it down completely and level the stand, then start over. I wouldn't use small shims but rather some that take up quite a bit of floor space. Another option would be to take the stand into a cabinet shop and have them alter the bottom of the stand so that it compensates for the floor being out of whack.

Marc