DSB - Deep Sand Beds ( need some explaining )

[Maverick27]

I was reading a thread in one of the other forums and they told you about DSB's and all this other stuff but they kinda were long winded into it. Can someone just answer a few questions about these sandbeds....?

1. Can you use Crushed Coral as a " NITRATE " reducer?
2. If not what kind of substrate should you use?
3. How deep is too deep/shallow.

I have crushed coral aragonite substrate in my tank now, kinda just went with what the LFS told me, and i just made it 2" deep thinking this would help nitrates. Can someone maybe shed some light on the situation here , is this even doing anything beneficial ( tank level wise )?? Thanks

[jer77]

no, crushed coral is too large to support an anerobic environment.
Sugar-fine grain sand is best-keeps the oxygen out.
1/2''-1'' of crushed coral is appropriate
0ver 3'' of sugar-fine sand is appropriate for DSB

[stelow]

No that would be just the opposite crushed coral would cause nitrates to build up within its many pockets. A good aragonite sand bed of about two to three inches deep usually will prove to be adequate.

[drjrose]

Everything you could ever want to know about this: http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

[stelow]

Here is some good sand to start with. Like I said 2 to 3 inches is all you need.
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=C-RSAND40&Category_Code=Substrates
or this
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=C-ARAG-SELT&Category_Code=Substrates

[Maverick27]

So actually having a crushed coral bed would increase nitrates?? I'm kinda concerned now because i have a Seatest Master Test Kit and all my other levels are fine but i am now getting a reading of almost looks like 20ppm nitrate. Most of the LFS's around me say thats not a level to worry bout but i dont want it that high. After doing a test though on my source of RO water i noticed i had a reading of 10ppm. I dont know if my test is messed up or if its actually at a high level. The place i got the RO from did a test and got 0ppm.
Also so if i decided to add a fine sand bed how would i go about doing this without disturbing the entire tank? or should i just stick by my guns?

[stelow]

It would be up to you if you do or don't. If you did it would not be easy but could be done.

[jer77]

what test kit are you using. I've had trouble will some in the past giving false readings, or are just hard to distinguish.
Fish can handle more nitrates than inverts like shrimp, snails, anemones and corals, which can handle very little.

[Maverick27]

Stelow - well I would like to do whatever it is to help lower nitrates in a natural way without adding any certain filters at this time. So if iwanted to what would be involved, and also what's the maintnence on a sandbed like you showed me.

Jer - I am using the Saltwater Master Test Kit by aquariuam pharmacudicals.. ( the company with the lil fish like a doctor ). One of my LFS's uses the same one but when mine was giving to me from my uncle, ( his leftover kit ) i had to replace the nitrate kit because he had (2) Nitrate #1 bottles. So maybe mismatching the bottles for Nitrate is doing it? ( it's the same company tho )

[jer77]

Test kit chemicals do get old and expire, so I would stick to the newer ones. Also, I'm not too familiar with the range of this test kit, but if you are trying to test for levels that are low on the test's color range, some tests have a harder time making precise results. I know many brands of nitrate tests especially that lose precision at low levels.

Just take out the crushed coral a little at a time, no rush, when changing water, and replace with fine sand. Make sure not to cover over the crushed coral, and try not to mix them.

[drjrose]

I agree with JER77. Do the sand exchange in the installment plan. You won't get all of the old stuff out, but you should be able to get enough to have a good outcome. If your live rock is resting on the substrate you may have a shift in the rock structure. This is why rock should be placed before sand if possible.

[Maverick27]

Yeah i figured you could do it in small increments , becuase i think you have to do that with crushed coral as it gets older anyway... right? haha My rock is actually not sitting atop of alot of crushed coral anyway because when i initially setup the tank i only had about a 1/2"-3/4" of substrate. Only thing im concerned about is that if i changed the sand how do you not end up with getting hydrogen sulfide? i heard something bout that if you add to much you get start having a build up of this sulfide and can toxicate the tank

Thanks again everyone for helping out.

Oh yea i also have a sand sifting star, should i lose him if i do add sand?

[stelow]

I really don't know how much is going on in your tank right now. If you could take everything out live rock, and any other living creatures you have. Set up another temporary tank while you remove your crushed coral and then add your new sand. After everything settles then add everything back to the tank. Bristleworms and pods maintain my sandbed with the help of one scarlet hermit and fighting conch. Yes you would want to find the starfish a new home.

[Maverick27]

If you look at my gallery you can see my tank ( 6 months shot ) as of right now so no theres not much in it at the moment. I'm not sure what step im gonna make next, i guess theres alot more to a DSB then just puttin in sand.

[romunov]

Have you read the link drjrose provided?
If not I suggest you do before doing a DSB. I have compiled a list of DSB articles as well. They can be reached here (http://gutfeeling.mine.nu/my/dsb.html).
A DSB is not just a layer of sand. It's a layer of very fine sand with a healthy population of animals. Most people use too coarse sand.

[AllenFord_SC]

The only time I would ever recommend using crushed coral is if you are going to do a RUGF (reverse under gravel filter) and I wouldn't recomend that unless you know what you are doing. In my first reef tank I used a 50/50 mix of LS and CC and I regretted it. I'll never use it again.

[Maverick27]

The only reason i want to use the live sand is to reduce the nitrates in my tank. Right now there at around 15-20ppm. I have a canister and in one of my other threads someone sed how that could be causing the nitrate spike. Also they sed it might be the skimmer ( red sea prizm ) but it pulls out crud and junk. If i put this live sand in the tank, would it reduce my nitrates to almost 0-5ppm? or is my bioload to big and not enough rock? I have a list of my tank's inhabitant and equipment i'll post in the thread beneath this one .

[Maverick27]

Equipment :

30 Gal. Oceanic Cube
- 23lbs of Live Rock
- Crushed Coral Aragonite 2" deep
- Fluval 403 Canister Filter with:
- Mechanical ( Eheim Synth )
- Mechanical ( Eheim Fix )
- Mechanical ( Eheim Mech )
- Chemical ( Chemi-Pure )
( just realized i dont have any biological filtration in the canister, my brother set it up for me )
- Red Sea Prizm Skimmer w/ Deluxe upgrade kit
- 1 Powersweep 226 powerhead 190GPH max
- 1 Maxi-Jet 400 Powerhead 106 GPH max

Livestock :
Fish
- Yellow Tang
- Tomato Clown
- Blue Damsel
- Scooter Blenny
- Peppermint Shrimp
- Red Scarlet Shrimp
- Bubble Tip Anemone
Corals
- Green Stripped Mushrooms
- Green Star Polyps
- Featherduster

[romunov]

Come to think of it, your tank is too small for a nice DSB. Meaning it would be very labour intensive to sustain it for longer periods. It would be more throuble than it's worth. Regular water changes, skimming and export via live mass (Xenia, Caulerpa, Chaetomorpha...) is the way to go.
And remember, doing a 50% water change will reduce nitrates by half.
Having a big fuge with a lot of macro algae growth helps too. You may want to consider installing one.

[Maverick27]

Originally posted by romunov
Come to think of it, your tank is too small for a nice DSB. Meaning it would be very labour intensive to sustain it for longer periods. It would be more throuble than it's worth.
I've thought about this too. The crushed coral really doesnt act as a filtration , but if i could add a refugium and stil have a small canister i figured that would be good, but if the canister is going to hold nitrate i'm wondering to myself if it would be better to rid the canister all together...?

[AquaTamer]

That Eheim Synth is your bio filtration. Actually, the whole canister.
One problem your having is in your own head. Scuse my blunt nature. Your thinking that one thing will solve this or that problem.Water chemistry is an equilibrium thing.
The reason you are having a problem is because you are listening to your LFS (lives for $) in the first place. These guys have a customer says this, I say that response system. It supports their store. Better to look for advice here at Reefcentral.
That canister sounds awfully full (four medias) to me.
Doesn't seem that you would have enough of any one of those to do what any one of those are supposed to do.
Try: Floss(course mechanical filtration-about 3")---ceramic tubes(large-about 2'')---ceramic tubes(small-whatever to fill with third layer to top)---GAC(fine-about 2").
Forget about this deep layer thing---that works because of lots of other things you have to do WITH it. And, you don't have the space for it.

[revrenhex]

for what its worth, I have 2 inches of crushed coral under 4 inches of silica sand in my 55 gallon. Has been up and running for about a year, and have 0 nitrates, 0 nitrites, 0 ammonia, 0 silica, 0 phosphates. Im not sure how or why, but it works! No algae problems, or diatoms.

[Maverick27]

Thanks aqua. I guess you right about the LFS. So as far as what your saying lemme just make sure im understanding. Right now i have 3 little baskets inside the fluval. This is how there setup top to bottom...

Top Basket:
( Synth ) - Looks like soft cotton pad
- Chemipure ( underneath the synth )
Mid basket:
( green strand stuff )
Bottom Basket:
( "noodles" ) about 1 1/2" high very small about a 1/4" in length and 1/8" in diameter.

And this is how i should set it up...

Top Basket:
Floss 3"
Mid Basket:
Large 2" Ceramic Tubes
Bottom Basket:
Small Ceramic Tubes
GAC fine about 2"

?? hope that sounds right

[Maverick27]

Originally posted by revrenhex
for what its worth, I have 2 inches of crushed coral under 4 inches of silica sand in my 55 gallon. Has been up and running for about a year, and have 0 nitrates, 0 nitrites, 0 ammonia, 0 silica, 0 phosphates. Im not sure how or why, but it works! No algae problems, or diatoms.

What's the silica sand looks like? If the system would work i would add some ontop of mine, but i heard a few bad things about silica with reef tanks. I plan on having a nice amount of corals in the tank with the fish.

[revrenhex]

It looks just like regular reef sand. Its white, not stearling white like reef sand, but still more white than egg shell white. It was 2.50 for a #50lb bag at lowes.

[romunov]

Some info on silica sands:
SILICA IN REEF AQUARIUMS by RANDY HOLMES-FARLEY, Ph.D. (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm)
Silica sand - Toonen (http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen9.html)
SILICON — FOE OR FRIEND? BY CRAIG BINGMAN, Ph.D. (http://web.archive.org/web/20010818152335/www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/2000/feb/features/1/default.asp)