Bacterial/Fungal infection, ICH, or BOTH?

[Jleach]

Sorry to be writing about ICH and such when there are so many entries; I just can't fine an answer to my question. I have two ocelaris clown in my QT for about 3 wks now. A few days after I got them, the larger one developed about eight little white spots on one front side fin, the top fin, and the tail fin. I also noticed this larger white dot (about the size of half a grain of salt)attached to one side of the tail fin. I gave both fish a fresh water dip, which didn't do much. Then I tried the copper (Cupramin) treatment plan. I've been doing that for about 1-1/2 weeks, but my copper levels haven't gotten past 2.0 ppm even though I put in more every other day. I also haven't seen any change. (Just so you know, I have also been monitoring the water chemical levels which continue to be fine.) I'd have to say that both fish look perfectly normal and are active and eat like any healthy fis. Last night, though, the large dot on the tail fin seemed to be irritating the fish more. It also looked a little bigger. I've been checking books and it doesn't look like those califlower-shaped fungi either. It's just round. I then made a 25% water change and added Pimafix w/ Melafix, thinking that maybe its a fungal infection after all.???

I know my explanation is long, so I'll summarize my questions:

1) If it is ICH, do you have any advice about how to use Cupramine more effectively? or should I give them a formalin bath?

2) If it's fungus/bacteria, are Melafix/Pimafix helpful?

3) Can I use all three treetments together to help cure the problem?

4) When do you think I can even think about putting them into the display tank...especially if the white dots and larger dots don't go away after 3 more weeks?

5) Also...if the one with the dots dies, can I add another clown to be a companion for the other, or is that impossible?

Please help, if you have any advice. I love these two little clowns and want them to get better.

Thank you for listening,

Jennifer

[leebca]

Hi Jennifer,

Sorry to hear of your difficulty. I'll do my best. . .
1) To use Cupramine properly you need to do the following (sorry if you're doing all or part of it already): The medication must be fresh (not expired); you need a proper copper test kit (also not expired) that is recommended by the treatment medication manufacturer; and you need patience. Cupramine is slow acting. It takes a while for the medication you add to release the copper and to show up on your test kit, and to do its job on the parasite. It is a good treatment for fish in a hospital tank or qt. AND most importantly, it is the cure for two different infecting parasites that show up as white spots.

2) Yes.

3) Possible, but not my recommendation. I always feel it is best to do a good diagnosis and treat specifically for the problem(s) rather than take a shot-gun approach. See: http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/diagnosticresources/

4) If the display tank is free of Marine Ich and disease, I wouldn't put the fish in the display until they are totally cured and free of any disease.

5) Possible. It could stress the one in treatment rather than be a companion. It may extend the qt period. The introduction of another fish in a diseased qt could bring with it a new disease that will attack the fish already there. In my opinion, I wouldn't take any of these risks.

Gald they are eating. Give food they should be eating soaked in marine fish vitamins.

How about checking out a Marine Ich information article? Maybe it will help in your identification efforts:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

I will try and answer more questions if you have them. The above are my opinions from 35 years in the hobby. :rollface:

Good luck! :D

[Jleach]

Thank you so much, Lee for your reply! I checked the site you suggested and understand ICH a little better. I think I've been doing as you suggested with the Cupramin. The directions say that I add 1 ppm/10 gallons at first, wait 48 hour, then repeat. I've been waiting 48 hours for each treatment. Should I do it every day instead?

Also, what is the other "white spot" disease you mention in question 1. Can I try to pick the larger spot off somehow? If so, how in the world would I do that. The fish are quite stressed even when I just put my hand in the water.

Since I should only use one medication at once, is it ok that I did one treatment of Melafix/Pimafix?

The water also started to get cloudy after I put in the Cupramin and removed the carbon. Does the coppy cause that, or (as the site you gave a link to says) it's a sign that something else is wrong (bacteria?)?

These fish are indeed tank raised. Is there more of a threat of ICH with tank-raised fish, in general?

[leebca]

You're welcome. :)

What's important is the amount of copper that is in solution, not the frequency of additlons. Know what I mean? I don't like those addition directions, because the issue really is keeping the right copper concentration. You want to add the medication to keep the copper where it belongs, otherwise you won't be killing the parasite.

The other disease is known as Marine Velvet. More info here: http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

If it is MI, then the parasite embeds itself into the body/skin of the host. Trying to physically remove them, I think, would be more harmful to the fish.

Don't worry about the single treatment with the other meds. Continue to do you water changes and it will dilute out. This isn't an exact science --- still a lot of experimentation going on. :rolleyes:

The cloudiness is more or less 'normal.' The release of the copper into the salt water usually creates a cloud. A bacterial cloud is slower to show that the medication cloud. Remember, the copper is not friendly to small organisms so I would not anticipate any 'happy' bacteria in your qt at this time.

The phrase 'tank rasied' has a specific meaning. It means that the fish were raised in the tank. If they were bred in the tank, then they would be called 'tank bred.' So if the phrase 'tank raised is being used properly here, then the fish likely still came from the wild. But, tank bred or tank raised, fish can be infected with this parasite. All it takes is for the parasite to get into the tank through water from a contaminated tank, by adding inverts with some water from a contaminated tank, etc., etc. One would hope that with 'tank bred' fishes, they would not have needlessly been exposed to diseases.

BTW, very glad to see you are using the qt process. Very smart. Have you read this article? Some good tips on qt: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.htm

:dance: