Hyposalinity & Copper?

[gizmo7718]

I've been looking for a healthy powder blue tang for awhile and I finally found one that ate and showed no signs of disease, great color and everything. Well, I picked this guy up on Saturday, put him in the QT, and he started to show some white spotting Sunday morning.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/60613PowderBlueTang__resized_.JPG
I'm in the process of lowering the salinity to 1.009, but was wondering if I should treat with copper or some other chemical based treatment along with the hyposalinity. Any suggestions?

By the way, he's about 3" long, swims and eats healthily. I love this guy! And I hope me makes it through. TIA

[sfsuphysics]

Before you go overboard, is it white spotting (ie blotches) or is it white specks (ie looks like little piece of salt at random places), because tangs do change color when stressed or hiding to try to blend into their surroundings, my naso actually gets black splotches every night when all the lights go out (I know this because on occasion I've had to turn the light on to the room to get something).

Granted your picture isn't uber high resolution but if those white lines you see on it is what you're talking about I don't see anything wrong, just a little stressed out fish trying to blend in with the pvc :)

[JoeMack]

no copper, its a poison

[jedininja]

If you are sure on the diagnosis of ich, hypersalinity is the absolute best way of dealing with it. Of course you can always give it a few days and if the tang is healthy and not stressed, it can recover on its own. But if it looks like a bad outbreak, then start the treatment right away.

[gizmo7718]

No these are white specks, I'm 99% sure it is Ich. Since last night (when I took the picture), they seem to have dropped off or disappeared. They're probably going into their second phase of their life cycle.
I'm a bit confused. If copper is poison, how come so many ppl use it with high success. Are tangs too sensitive to copper?

[BoomerD]

Tangs are VERY sensitive to copper. Apparently, there is a bacteria that lives in their gut that the copper kills. It then affects the health of the fish.
Hypo-salinity is probably better,BUT, you have to maintain your water quality, and feed with Selcon and garlic added to the foods.

[Tropicr]

I’ve used the hyposalinity method in conjunction with the transfer method for years with excellent results. If you don’t know what I’m referring to, do a search for the transfer method or PM or e-mail me.

[MorandiWine]

Copper has been shown to be immuno-deficient in marine animals, I would only use it as a last ditch treatment.

Hypo should work provided he survives that long.

tyler

[guyguerra]

Hi Gizmo, I wanted to see how your hypo treatment is going. There are a couple of us on this BB that are doing the same. You started a week before me. How are your results so far? Did you use Cupramine also?

[gizmo7718]

So far it's been frustrating. My powder blue is eating really well, and is very active. The white spots disappeared within the first couple of days. I keep the SG between 1.008-1.009, measured with a refractometer. I change water twice a week (20%). Then about a week ago I noticed some white spots on his fins, and he's been trying to scratch them off. This is very discouraging to me, which is why I remain skeptical about the broad knowledge of marine ich. Some people swear by hypo, others by copper. Some believe that marine ich is not always present in an aquarium, others believe it is. And there are stories that support either theory. The ones that stick in my mind are when people do not have an outbreak for years, then after a stressful event, like upgrading to a larger tank or some other stressor, they get a huge outbreak. I'm starting to lean towards marine ich always being in a tank but as long as you keep your fish as stress-free as possible, the parasite cannot take hold. I know this is contrary to the "scientific" study of the marine ich life cycle, but how can so many experienced reefers share the same stories?
For now I will continue with the hypo treatment. The white spots are still there on the fins so I can't start my countdown until they're gone. I might as well carry it through and see for myself. This sucks.

[JoeMack]

Ich can not live at that salinity. Your actually really low. I stuck to around 1.013 when I did mine and it worked great. I'm thinking you might not have ich if you are having problems at that salinity.

[guyguerra]

gizmo, I've added you to my buddy list and will keep an eye on your progress. I am 10 days into it and I have not seen any spots re-appear. I check the salinity every day, and it's floats between 11-13ppt, mostly at 11-12 though. I guess evaporation keeps bringing it up because I have to add 2 or 3 gallons every day or two to get it back gown. I have not been doing any water changes. I'm using my 120 gall since I ruined everything in it with copper anyway. The nitrates and all parameters are perfect. If anyone reading this has to treat their display like I did (because of not having a second tank) just pull the LR out and keep it in the garage in a trash can with a pump. Why I didn't do that, and how the dozens of threads I read never mentioned such a simple thing is beyond me. Let it sit for 6 or 8 weeks and it'll be fine. Even the copper treatment company said you could use their treatment with LR in the tank. The LR's so simple to pull out, and REAL expensive to replace. Back to hypo, the Butterflys seem fine, the hippo tang will hide a lot, more so than before, unless its feeding time. I notice my six line wrasse seems to be taking it harder than the others. It's my intention to use the transfer method when I am finished. It wont be the four times recommended. That might be more than these guy's can take, but I am determined to strip this tank down and bleach wash it before I put them back. So they'll go in the 50 gallon QT (I believe people try to use QT's that are too small) for four days while I clean the big tank, then back to the big one. I might consider borrowing another tank though and completing the four transfer process if I see that your's and Wade's doesn't wipe it out. Both of you are farther along than me. We'll see, but I might end up with the group that says you can't eliminate it completely. Thanks for passing your experiences, Guy

[gizmo7718]

hey guy,

it's past the 4th week and i'm going to start slowly raising the salinity back to normal levels. my PBT is looking better than ever, no spots, no scratching. eats like a pig, even from my hand. loves the nori soaked in garlic and Selcon. anyhow, i'll let you know how it goes. shoule be about 10 days or so until normal salinity. hope things are working out for you.

gabe

[teachermark]

Originally posted by sfsuphysics
[B]Before you go overboard, is it white spotting (ie blotches) or is it white specks (ie looks like little piece of salt at random places), because tangs do change color when stressed or hiding to try to blend into their surroundings, my naso actually gets black splotches every night when all the lights go out (I know this because on occasion I've had to turn the light on to the room to get something).


Whew! I was worried that my naso tang was getting ich all over, apparently he's just trying to blend into his surroundings. Good to know.

Thanks

Mark

[guyguerra]

Hey Gizmo, I'm glad to hear things are going well with your hypo treatment. I thought I was doing good till today (18th day). When I got home tonight I found one spot on my tang, right behind his eye. It looks exactly like the ich spots the fish had before, but he's the only one and it's the only spot so far. I've checked the water every day being sure to keep it at 11ppt. Pretty frustrating. I read that your fish had spots 10 days ago. Aren't we supposed to go for four to six weeks after the last visible spot? My tang is already looking bad , with splotches along his face. I put the rock he used to hide out in back in the tank to give him a hide out spot. He ran right to it. Hopefully this will lower his stress a little. He didn't take to pvc at all. I can't understand how a spot can show up 18 days into this unless some tomonts live thru the low salinity. Am I now supposed to start counting four or six weeks from the time this spot falls off? How long can fish handle this level of salinity?

[bladze]

Originally posted by gizmo7718
hey guy,

it's past the 4th week and i'm going to start slowly raising the salinity back to normal levels. my PBT is looking better than ever, no spots, no scratching. eats like a pig, even from my hand. loves the nori soaked in garlic and Selcon. anyhow, i'll let you know how it goes. shoule be about 10 days or so until normal salinity. hope things are working out for you.

gabe

Could someone explain this "nori soaked in garlic and Selcon"?

Thanks.

[gizmo7718]

guy, it's actually been almost 3 weeks since i saw those white spots. i know people say 4-6 weeks after the last spots disappear, but i really think he'll do fine.

bladze, i soak nori in garlic extract for its immune system boosting properties and selcon for the vitamins.

[Vincerama2]

Originally posted by jedininja
If you are sure on the diagnosis of ich, hypersalinity is the absolute best way of dealing with it. Of course you can always give it a few days and if the tang is healthy and not stressed, it can recover on its own. But if it looks like a bad outbreak, then start the treatment right away.

You mean hypOsalinity, not hypERsalinity, don't you?

Also gizmo, thanks for reinforcing the need for a QT tank!

V

[JoeMack]

I waited 30 days and the hypo tank got ich (when I raised it back up). I would recomend 6 weeks for everyone who goes this route.

[gws294]

Just thought I'd jump in for a quick question. I've got a 50 g FOWLR tank (inline with a 72 g reef, 20g sump, and 20 g refuge = 160gal total) with 6 pigmy angels. I added the last one, a rusty, last week after a short stint in the QT. I obviously didn't wait long enough... I really do know better, just couldn't wait. Any way, yesterday i say just a couple little specks of spots (ick) on the new guy, and by this evening all of the others are showing signs of infection.

I've been reviewing the various threads and posts but I have some questions. It seems that the hypo strategy is the safest approach. I don't like the idea of using the copper unless I have to. I'm thinking of taking the 50g "offline" and putting the LR into the reef tank during the treatment. I have a cascade 1000 canister filter setup and running for emergencies and was considering using it to filter the 50 g.

How do you think this would work???( I have about 50 lbs of Live sand in the tank).

The last time I pulled a fish out to the QT, I lost it after the nitrates shifted so fast that I missed the problem.

I really appreciate any comments and suggestions you all have on the subject. Thanks,
Geoff

[guyguerra]

JoeMack, what did you do after the second Ich breakout? Did you treat the tank again?

[JoeMack]

no, I was gone for the weekend and my fish were dead when I got back home. next time before I start to move the salinity back up i'm going to empty the tank and let it stay dry for a bit so I know there is no ick. Then I will fill it back up and start to increase the salinity. The amonia was .5 if I remember when I got home. The head fish probally made it that high after they died. Before I had about .25 before I did water changes.

[guyguerra]

I am 5 1/2 weeks into hyposalinity and still have Ich. I have left the sand and a small amount of dead rock in the tank, but I can't see how that will help the tomonts to live. I believe the ich that I have is resistant to low salinity and that copper might have been a better choice.

[BoomerD]

How are you measuring your salinity? Do you have a refractometer, or are you using a swing-arm device? Ich should not be immune to hyposalinity, IF you truely get the water down to 1.009. yes, it can survive low salinity levels, but marine ich shouldn't be able to tolerate that level. It may take several weeks of that level to acheive total kill, and IMO, a decent UV might help a bit. (but it's NOT a total ich killer by itself)

[guyguerra]

I'm using a refractometer and have been consistent at 11ppt (except the first 1 1/2 weeks, I had it between 11 & 13 ppt, being afraid to get too low). The last 4 weeks have been consistently at 11ppt. I was keeping the tank at 1.018 for the first two months while using copper, which I wasn't using properly due to having a mismatched test kit. I am wondering if that time helped the parasite to acclimate to the lower salinity.

[BoomerD]

Just remember that tangs have certain bacteria in their guts that are major aids in their digestive system, and copper will either kill those, or severely damage them. It tends to shorten the tang's life dramatically. Hypo is still the best bet for crypt and tangs. How about pics of the fish? In your post of 3/30, you mention splotches on the face. That does not sound like ich.

[guyguerra]

Hi Boomer,
I lost the tang. I am down to three butterflys, 1 foxface and 2 clowns. The longnose bf and copperband are the ones that have ich on their bodies. All of the fish are acting healthy, and my losses were my fault and not the ich. I am at a loss on what to do. The salinity is still 11ppt. I did a large water change today and plan to vacuum the sand and replace the dead rock every three days, which I believe will pull out a good portion of the tomonts. I am strongly considering adding Cupramine and keeping the salinity low. It seems like the fish are healthy enough, and Seachem says its fine to treat them with Cupramine during hypo. I really think the combination of hypo, Cupramine, and 3 day water changes/vacuuming/rock replacement will be completely effective. Does this sound reasonable?

[BoomerD]

Guy, here's some reading for you.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/treatmen.htm


Good luck. Cryptocaryoniasis, AKA marine ich can be tough to eradicate. The clowns definitely can tolerate copper, and IIRC, so can both butterflyfish and the foxface.