T5's or PC's

[jwshowski]

I currently have the Orbit light fixture with 4x65w pc's with 2-Dual Daylight /2-Dual Actinic bulbs. I am looking at the 4x54w T5's with a combo of aquablue, sun, actnic, aquablue bulbs. Would the T5's be worth the money? How many more corals would I be able to keep with the T5's than the pc's? I will be buying the TBS package here soon and thought it would be a good idea to change my lighting while i have nothing in the tank. Please help, I want to keep the best corals I can without getting MH's. Thanks

[drjrose]

Originally posted by jwshowski
How many more corals would I be able to keep with the T5's than the pc's?

How deep is your tank? Both the T5s and PCs won't go deep.

[Ruu]

From my perspective, the reports on T5 are extremely positive right now, and tanks up to 24" seem to do extremely well with T5 (even for very high light SPS or clams, aparently). The T5's do seem to make more sense the longer your tank is though - the bulbs, reflectors etc dont seem to cost a huge amount more whether you are talking 24"or 48", so longer tank would probably be more cost efficient (albeit more expensive) than a shorter one. Just my two cents, since I am trying to decide whether to do a MH pendant or T5 over my 54 corner. The MH makes more sense for me with a shorter tank, but your mileage may vary with a 75.

Back to your original question for a second though. It depends what you want to keep - T5's and PC's arent really comparable, and if you want to keep high light organisms, you are really going to have to argue metal halide vs T5 at some point, since PC's arent even in the same league from a lumens / watt point of view.

Dave

[horkn]

ruu pretty well summed it up. the t5s are the way to go for tanks thta are smaller.

tanks up to 24" deep will really se the most use of t5 lighting. anything deeper, and you may want to go MH, but this all depends on what you want to keep...

the positives for t5 ho are way high over the negatives, the only one at this time seems to be the lack of shimmer lines...

[The Grim Reefer]

You may find you choice of lamps a bit yellow depending on your taste. You might consider using a Blueplus in place of one of the aquablues (a very crisp white light despite the name) or the actinic. T5 actinics will fluoresce the corals but provide very little visible light while the Blueplus will fluoresce the corals nicely and provide a nice blue light on the order of a halide radium bulb. I would order one extra lamp and play with different combinations to get the look you want. Not a bad idea to have a spare on hand anyway.

[drock59]

why do people even consider PC's anymore? i see thread after thread of people comparing all kinds of things to PC. IME, PC lights do not hold a candle(excuse the pun) to ANYthing else out there. You would be much better off going with the T5's. :)

[JENnKerry]

Lighting IMO is nothing more of a personal preference. It all depends on what you want to keep, period. I have a few SPS frags that are absolutely out of control growing like mad under my 4x65 watt PCs? Does this mean that I should ditch them and go with T5's or MH? I'm sorry I just get a little P'd off when I hear people always bashing PC's.
I guess I'll end up being like Paul B in 30 years ( you know, the guy with the 30 year old reef) . The only person left using PCs :D

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally posted by JENnKerry

I guess I'll end up being like Paul B in 30 years ( you know, the guy with the 30 year old reef) . The only person left using PCs :D

It's an even sillier thing to argue about when you realize that T5's and PC's are, essentially, the EXACT SAME THING! :) They're both a high-output 5/8" bulb, the only difference being that the PC bulb is bent back on itself.

Granted, that does lend some obvious benefits to the T5 bulbs - better reflectors are possible and there's less light lost/heat generated from the tubes being so close together, but essentially it's six of one or half a dozen of the other.

Compare either to MH's though, and there's a lot more room for differences to fuel the debate.

[JENnKerry]

Thanks for your input Wille. I dont know that much about T5's. It seems that when we got into this hobby PC's were the new thing along with the normal MH. Now it's T5's. What will be next? All I'm saying is that aside from my two SPS frags, I have no interest in SPS. Why would I want to upgrade? If it aint broke, why fix it?

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally posted by JENnKerry
Thanks for your input Wille. I dont know that much about T5's. It seems that when we got into this hobby PC's were the new thing along with the normal MH. Now it's T5's.

This is certainly a hobby rife with fads. VHO's, MH's, PC's, and T5's have all been promoted as the wunder-lighting that will end all lighting worries. IMHO, MH has come the closest for the longest amount of time - take a poll of serious reef keepers keeping demanding species and I bet 80% - 90% of them use MH for the primary lighting on their tank.

However, as you yourself are an example of, it's certainly possible to be totally successful in this hobby with an "unpopular" light rig.

[JENnKerry]

Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht

However, as you yourself are an example of, it's certainly possible to be totally successful in this hobby with an "unpopular" light rig.

Point taken. Thanks :thumbsup:

[prsguy]

Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht
This is certainly a hobby rife with fads. VHO's, MH's, PC's, and T5's have all been promoted as the wunder-lighting that will end all lighting worries. IMHO, MH has come the closest for the longest amount of time - take a poll of serious reef keepers keeping demanding species and I bet 80% - 90% of them use MH for the primary lighting on their tank.

However, as you yourself are an example of, it's certainly possible to be totally successful in this hobby with an "unpopular" light rig.

Not trying to hijack here, but this post is on the $. After buying my ETSS skimmer then reading here about all the Euroreef fans I began to wonder if I should clean up my brand new ETSS and sell it for a Euroreef. A few weeks in, I'm more than happy with the output and I wouldn't even think of changing at this point but at first I certainly did.

If things are growing well under PC's then no reason to change at all!

PS- I traded in my PC's for T-5's after coming to RC. I hadn't even opened the lights yet and I overpaid so it made the decision easier, but I guess I got bit too :bigeyes:

[JENnKerry]

Originally posted by prsguy


If things are growing well under PC's then no reason to change at all!


Exactly, good point.

[horkn]

see my below post since i cant delete this one.

yeah, my first double post:smokin:

[horkn]

why use t5s over pcs? well, you already know it, but the t5s are more eficient, allowing you save money on your energy bill, and the fact that pc bulbs last nowhere near as longa s t5 lights.. that savings is substantial. plus the pc fixtures will make more heat that a comparable t5 ho setup.



i dont think t5s are merely a fad... vhos are IMO a fad, and so are PC's.. does that mean they are crap, no, theya re what they are, and if they work for you, and you dont mind paying more for energy/ bulbs, go for it....

when did PC's come to the market anyways?
and the t5 isnt really merely a pc bulb unfolded.. theres a lot more to it than that, but yes, they are both 5/8 of an inch in tube diameter...

sorry about the repost....

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally posted by horkn

i dont think t5s are merely a fad... vhos are IMO a fad, and so are PC's..

VHO's were the lighting of choice for decades before MH came into vogue recently. Hardly a "fad."

and the t5 isnt really merely a pc bulb unfolded.. theres a lot more to it than that, but yes, they are both 5/8 of an inch in tube diameter...


You're incorrect. A T5 bulb is, literally, a 5/8" tube designed to run at twice (high output) the current of a standard output bulb. A PC bulb is a 5/8" tube designed to run at twise the current, but folded back on itself. They are, literally, the same exact thing.

However, as you've pointed out, the straight design of the T5 definitely does have advantages - the light is easier to harness if you've got a good reflector, and there's also the possiblity for the bulb to last longer if they're not crammed by the dozen into a hot canopy.

Honestly, I'm not arguing against T5's here or for any other lighting choice - I'm just pointing out that, like with a LOT of things in this hobby, there's a lot of excitement about them right now simply because they're new. When PC's first became popular, people were making the exact same claims - "oh, they last forever! They save power!" etc etc etc. The point I'm arguing is that, in the end, there are a *lot* of ways to run a successful reef tank.

[horkn]

but the saving power part of the Pc was a fad, since it really wasnt any savings, esp when you figured in the longevity of the bulbs.


in ho config the t5s are not the same as a pc bulb. they run higher wattage for one thing... i remember reading about the differences when i did my lighting homework before plunking any $$ down...

but yeah, if pcs could be unravelled, they would be nearly as good as t5 (regular ones not ho) esp with a reflector..

[The Grim Reefer]

Lot of people make the same assumption about T5 and compact fluorscents. Not the same animals at all based on the industrial data I read before buying. One giveaway is the fact that T5 can run at higher temps than the other fluorescents. Even if they were the same the PC design flaw of the PC cuts down on the life and effectivness. I am going to see what mounting a PC in a T5 reflector does for the output, should be interesting.

Now just to make things even more interesting there are T6's out. Standard lengths, thicker glass(easier to ship) and they have actinic and Daylight/actinic lamps out of the gates and they will run on T8 or T5 ballasts. They also run a bit cooler than T5's/

[horkn]

yeah i looked around, and saw that t5 hos only lose 5% of their intensity, and theres no way a pc can claim that, since pcs last 6-9 months..

[prsguy]

Here is my 90 a few weeks back when I first put on the T5's. The pic is a little over exposed (brand new camera) but you get the idea...


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/80885T5srock.jpg


I would imagine that your light penetration would be even better on a shorter 75 g tank.

[JENnKerry]

THats funny because I've never once seen any kind of rise in the electric bill by running my PCs. But they're energy suckers right?

Heating is the same thing. The tank stays at a constant 79 degrees with the only excetion on those hot summer days where it might get to 85 and thats only because the tank is next to a window.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally posted by The Grim Reefer
Lot of people make the same assumption about T5 and compact fluorscents. Not the same animals at all based on the industrial data I read before buying. One giveaway is the fact that T5 can run at higher temps than the other fluorescents.

It's not an assumption, it's fact! The differences (for instance, in temperatures generated, life, etc) are *because* of the folded back design. I'm *not* claiming that they're totally identical here. ;)

T5's definitely have the potential to be superior to PC's, I'm not debating that at all. However, the instant you cram a million of them into a poorly designed hood, they're going to behave about the same.

The pic is a little over exposed (brand new camera) but you get the idea...

It's a great pic, but can we not agree that photos are a very poor tool for measuring anything meaningful about a lighting rig? Throw a PAR meter in there and show us all just how good your lights are. :)

THats funny because I've never once seen any kind of rise in the electric bill by running my PCs. But they're energy suckers right?

Energy consumption isn't the big mystery that lots of people seem to think it is. It's probably the easiest thing to know about a lighting rig. Watts = watts, more or less - 250w of MH vs. 250w of PC vs. 250w of T5 are going to consume the same amount of power. Which puts the most light in a tank for that amount of power? It's nearly impossible to make any clear statement without know a lot more variables.

[Reefmaniac1]

While both the T5s and PCs may be the same diameter, according to what I have read, the T5s are a new technology and are in no way related to the PC technology.

[DrBDC]

Originally posted by JENnKerry
What will be next?

They have LED lights now that are getting high PAR and are trying to come to market to eliminate all other lighting. Sup. they use almost no electricity and can produce output in the MH range. We'll see. They'll work better and be released the day after I dump a ton of money on some new lighting and then I'll have to read about it for years.

[R33f3r]

LoL, T6's are out. Thicker glass than T5 and run cooler.

[prsguy]

Where do I get a waterproof PAR meter and how much?

[horkn]

Originally posted by JENnKerry
THats funny because I've never once seen any kind of rise in the electric bill by running my PCs. But they're energy suckers right?



well, you would see a lowere nergy bill with t5 hos, since they put more energy out with more efficiency.

for example, i would have needed bare minimum 220 watts of pc to light my tank, while 1 have 117 watts of t5, and we all know that the t5s have a higher par value than pc's do.


the heating thing, well, thast a tough call, since every tank is different. maybe with t5s your tank would need to be heated by the heater more, which is fine, but when you get to the point of having to cool your tank since the lights heat the water too much, then theres a problem. and exactly why i didnt go MH....


it sure looks like youa re having great success with your PC lights though. and thats great
:rollface:

[sjm817]

Originally posted by R33f3r
LoL, T6's are out. Thicker glass than T5 and run cooler.
Bah, I'm way ahead of you all. I run T8's! :lol:

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Heh - well I've got a tank with . . . . T12's! :lol:


Originally posted by horkn
but when you get to the point of having to cool your tank since the lights heat the water too much, then theres a problem. and exactly why i didnt go MH....

MH on a tank does not require cooling. Ventilation and a few fans will do the trick perfectly well for most people.

By the time you get to the light intensity that MH can supply - regardless of the type of bulb you're using - you're going to be dumping a lot of heat into the water. Throw enough T5's into a hood to get in the realm of a high-wattage MH rig and you're *going* to have issues - heat, short bulb life, poor reflector performance, and loss of efficiency.

Where do I get a waterproof PAR meter and how much?

LiCOR make an underwater sensor (Li192SA) for their Li250 meter or Li400 datalogger. The meter is about $250, I'm not sure what the sensor costs. That's probably the most common meter for aquarists though.

[horkn]

By the time you get to the light intensity that MH can supply - regardless of the type of bulb you're using - you're going to be dumping a lot of heat into the water. Throw enough T5's into a hood to get in the realm of a high-wattage MH rig and you're *going* to have issues - heat, short bulb life, poor reflector performance, and loss of efficiency.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


hmm, i have no vents or fans on my canopy, and it runs ultra cool. my t5 ho setup is comaprable to a mh setup, as far as what i can keep in it, judging merely by others success. i have no heat, or poor reflector performance with the right kind of reflectors and the required wattage to keep what i want..

the bulb life is yet to be decided, i will get back to that in bare minimum 18 months...
and as far as loss of efficiency T5 ho's only lose 5% of their efficiency over time..

i know you are not anti t5, but you just seem a little uninformed about t5s.

i like MH too, its jsut theres no way i would ruun it over my tank, for many reasons already stated. and when i get my big tank, i will do a MH and t5 or maybe t6 whichever has a better actinic bulb, which is a year away at this point.

for my tank the negative of t5s not penetrating deep enough isnt an issue, since my tank is 18" tall, and the lack of shimmer lines, well, i can say i would rather have the shimmer lines, but not at the cost of tank heating issues...

and i would need to run at least 1- 175 w mh, if not a 250 watter to get the amount of light that my t5 ho's do, and thats not including the extra cost of having at least one actinic flouro bulb of some sort to take care of that dept...

[Scuba Dog]

T5s over power compacts any day! with the right reflector set up you can keep the high light clams up in the rock work, even some acros as well....although the growth rates wont match 250 halides...the T5s is an excelent light system.

[The Grim Reefer]

Originally posted by prsguy
Where do I get a waterproof PAR meter and how much?

http://www.specmeters.com/Light_Meters/Quantum_Light_Meter.html

241 shipped for the base unit with apogee external sensor.

[The Grim Reefer]

Arguing about T5 vs. Halides is kinda a waste of time. Too many variables. I figure you should start out aiming for halides and work back from there. If heat isn't an issue and you want ultimate growth for clams and SPS halides are the way to go. I think the biggest advantage T5 has over them is the ability to customize the color of the light using different lamps. Now if I could only figure out a way to increase my shimmer lines beyond the 6 or 8" I get them now.