mysterious tank syndrome

[Chelsey]

Ok, so, I've posted about this in the zoo forum, but I think that this could apply to you guys too, so I'm posting it here. About a month or two ago I noticed my zoos not opening, then just like dissolving. I tried dipping them with no avail. I tested my parameters to find that my nitrates were high(100 mg/l according to my Tetratest kit), but the zoos seemed like they were the only ones affected. I have another reef tank, so I moved them into there. After about two months now they are doing ok and slowly recovering. Just in the past week have I been able to see the skirts of some of the zoos, they aren't even open all the way! I accidently left a combo rock that contained a very minute amount of zoos on it in my nano, and now they're almost completely melted except for two polyps. I recently was given a single pink zoo polyp, and it's doing just fine. Before I knew that there was a problem with my tank I recieved a few tiny frags of zoos, but they were open for maybe one day. The single polyp has been opening daily and has colored up more than when I got it. The single polyp thriving makes me think that maybe my problem is cured, but I'm really scared to move my zoos back into my nano cube. Since I began having the mysterious water problem I have done two water changes, a 2 gallon change and a 4 gallon (I have a JBJ 12 gallon cube). This tank's been up for a little over a year now, so I know it's not cycling. I'm positive that nothing has died because I watch my tank like a hawk and definately would've noticed. After both water changes the nitrates were still 100 mg/l. Nitrates are the only things that are abnormal, everything else is 0. Any ideas? The thread from the zooanthid forum is here. (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=494466)

[3_high_low]

Hi Chelsey,

There's got to be something wrong with your maintainance routine if you are at 100 ppm nitrate, either that or your tests are faulty.

Is the test kit old? Does it have an expiration date? What are the other parameters for the water? Nitrite, ammonia, pH, alk, etc???

Do you do regular water exchanges? If so, how much and how often? How many fish do you have and are you sure you are not over feeding?

[Azurel]

What is the nitrate test of your source water? I would look at that first and formost. If you have done that many water changes then and your still that high, there is something in the tank that is leeching nitrates or it's in your source water.

[3_high_low]

Originally posted by Azurel
What is the nitrate test of your source water? I would look at that first and formost. If you have done that many water changes then and your still that high, there is something in the tank that is leeching nitrates or it's in your source water.

That's an excellent point:)

[Chelsey]

My source water is distilled water and I'm almost positive that my test kit is skewed. I tested tap water last night and got 12.5 mg/l or something like that - I posted it in the thread I have linked here. Nitrite, ammonia, alk, pH, everything else is perfect (0.0 or where it should be). I have two small black ocellaris that get fed once a day and they never leave any food behind. They get one small pinch in the morning and that's it. I do have a small cleanup crew, but they don't get "fed" and none have recently died. As for water changes, I don't usually do them. I found that I had more trouble when I did water changes with algae and all kinds of other stuff, so I just check levels and if anything is wrong I go from there. This is the first time I've had anything wrong, and even now I'm not so sure that the test is accurate. I probably DID have a nitrate problem because I used to dose my tank with phyto and coral accel, but I won't be doing that anymore, and certainly not with the frequency that I had been doing previously. As I said in my other post, I think my problem might be fixed because of the way that zoo polyp is acting. I'll have to buy another test to make sure that things are ok before I move my precious zoos back in.

[bermudadiver]

If you aren't doing water changes, what are you using for nitrate export?

[Chelsey]

I am not really using anything other than natural filtration...if there is a level screwed up, I do a water change. I also do topoffs frequently. I should probably start doing water changes and all that jazz, but so far the tank has been fine. We never do water changes in the 55 gallon tank and it's doing perfectly. I am good about checking levels, so it comes as quite a suprise to me to find that one week the nitrates were zero and the next week they were 100 mg/l!!! Please don't flame me for not doing water changes, my tank seems to do better without my intervention than when I keep messing with stuff :(

[bermudadiver]

Chelsey,

Are you using the filtration system standard on the nanocube? i.e. the bioballs and sponges and ceramic rings? The reason I ask is that this wet/dry method is fantastic for breaking down ammonia and nitrites, but will not address nitrates. Or are you using crushed live rock or something in the back filtration area.

I am thinking the reason you are seeing such a spike in the nano is you are dealing with a much smaller volume of water. Generally speaking, the greater the water volume, the more stable the water chemistry, as the larger volume can cope with changes in chemistry easier due to sheer volume. What may be working naturally in your 55 may not be able to cope on your 12/24. Particularly, once your zoos started to go downhill, I would think it only exascerbated the problem, making the chemistry worse, which in turn negatively effected the zoos. A bit of a viscious circle going on.

*if* you are running the filtration system that came standard on the nano, I recommend you do one of two things:

1. Do a 10-15% water change weekly.

or

2. Replace the filter media with crushed live rock.

Ideally, I would do both.

Hope this helps.

Rick

[Chelsey]

I'm running the sponge thing that is right behind the grate area that sucks in the water along with a ton of live rock rubble for filtration.

[bermudadiver]

Excellent. Then the only other thing I can think of is to do a regular water change. (And of course change or rinse out the sponge on a very regular basis so the bits that get trapped in it don't decompose, adding more crap to your chemistry).

I know you are not crazy about water changes, but with that small a tank, I think it really is necessary as there is too little water volume for stable chemistry.

Worst case, try this.

Do a 2 gallon water change every day for a week. That should stabilize the chemistry significantly. Check the levels each day. I am willing to bet after the week the chemistry will be much better, and weekly 1gallon changes will suffice.

[Chelsey]

ok, I'll try that :)

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Chelsey
I'm running the sponge thing that is right behind the grate area that sucks in the water along with a ton of live rock rubble for filtration.

Chelsey, here's your problem. You are running a nitrate factory with that type of filtration.

Remove the LR and clean the sponge every day.

[Chelsey]

Remove the LR? Why? What should I have in its place? Isn't live rock rubble the normal filtration for these cubes?

[Bomber]

Do you have the LR in the filter? I thought that's what you meant?

[Chelsey]

I do have live rock rubble in my filter. I thought that LR rubble was the normal filtration system for the JBJ cubes. All of the research I've done has said to do things that way. Now I'm rather confused. What should be back there instead?

[Bomber]

OK then that's the problem. If it's not your test kit. Putting LR, bioballs, anything like that, even dirty carbon, will cause it in something like a filter.
Take the LR out of the filter and clean the sponge every day. You should have more than enough bacteria in the sand and rock in the tank to support anything you put in there.

[fd235158]

Chelsey start doing weekly water changes, they are of great benefit to keeping your tank stable. For a 12 gallon tank you only need to change 1-2 gallons a week and that's not much work. If you are getting algae doing that you may have gotten a bad batch of salt, test it for nitrates and phosphates prior to doing the next change. Bomber is right about cleaning/changing the sponge in your filter. I take mine out every week or 2 and it's amazing how much sludge will wash out of it. By the way if your still using the original sponge it's time to make a trip to the LFS and get a new one.

[fd235158]

Wait hold up, I just realized bomber was a marine biologist. Forget what I said and I would listen to everything bomber tells you.

[Chelsey]

I will do as you said, but then what's the point of a fuge? Should I leave the back compartment totally empty then?

[bermudadiver]

Bomber,

If she uses a sponge for the first stage filtration to remove the "bits" before they get into the filter, but clean it out regulalrly? . It seems like the runle of thumb for the nanocubes (at least on the nano forum) is to fill that back up with rubble as a better solution to the standard filtration it comes with.

[bermudadiver]

Holy crap my typing leaves a bit to be desired this morning. Let me try that again...

Bomber, I reread your post and answered my own question. Yes, use the sponge but clean it regularly.


It seems on the nano forum that the popular filtration method for the JBJ nanocubes is to scrap the sponge/bioball/ceramic ring filtration that comes with the unit and instead use the sponge as a prefilter and use live rock rubble in the filter chamber.

I am guessing that the live rock in the dark filter area will better provide nitrate export.

[Chelsey]

Bomber, if you get the chance, could you please explain to me why live rock rubble is a bad choice of filtration for the back of my cube?

[bermudadiver]

Bomber, I would be keen to get your htoughts on this as well. I have a Nanocube 12DX on its way, and I was planning on the live rock rubble to replace the stock filter as well.

Actually, I HAVE a 12Dx, but that's another story.

Clicky clicky to share my pain:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=501232

[Bomber]

Because, in a filter, you are trapping more detritus/faster than it could ever be processed past nitrates. You are using LR pieces just like you would filter fluff, sponge, etc. Plus the water flowing past it will cause it to just break down even faster.
That's why if you use sponges/filter fluff, you clean it fast and often.

[bermudadiver]

Bomber,

Sounds reasonable, and makes a lot of sense.

All things being equal then, what would you recommend for filtration for one of these nanocubes, then? As a self contained unit with a form fitted hood, there is no option for a skimmer (although I have seen on DIY unit).

It may be there is no alternative but to use either live rock rubble or the mechanical/biological filtration system that comes with it, in which case the ammonia/nitrites would be processed, but there is nothing that can be done about nitrates aside from regular water changes.

Rick

[Chelsey]

I'd like to know what to put in mine too. There are two zoanthid polyps that are open for the first time in like 3 months because of this supposed nitrate problem, so it is something that they can recover from, but I'd rather not keep them in my 55 gallon tank forever.

[bermudadiver]

I'll have to examine my hood closely. Maybe if you can fit a tiny light in there, you could turn the back area into a mini-fuge and keep some macro back there...

[Chelsey]

I could probably fit a bunch of LEDs in there. I'm just baffled as to why people have said for so long to put live rock rubble in there just for it to be of no use. I'm open to new ideas and everything, I'm just wondering why this stuff wasn't thought of earlier.