Talk me out of tearing down my tank!

[gus1225]

I'll apolagize now, this is going to be a long one.

I'm getting really frustrated with the algae and cyno that's taking over my tank. It's a 29g reef. I have an aqua-c remora skimmer and a 130w orbit lighting system. I do twice weekly 10-15% water changes with ro/di water at 0 tds. I use oceanic salt, have thought about switching to tropic marin. Phosphates and silicates are undetectable with salifert kits. I do however occasionally have a problem with very low levels of nitrates. I put some macroalgae in my tank to try to control the problem but it got out of control and I had to pull it out, it didn't seem to help anyway. I'm only feeding my clownfish every 3 days and only a very small amount, and I'm not feeding my corals anything right now.

Here's the big problem. I know it would help if I had a sump or refugium under the tank, but I live in an upstairs apartment in an area where power goes out frequently so I'm very concerned about flooding. I also have very crooked floors and am not sure if they could hold the extra weight. I've thought about using a hang-on refugium but am not sure if something that small would do any good, plus I don't know if the tank could hold that much weight. I'm also getting frustrated with all the room equipment is taking up. There's no room left for the corals.

I'll just answer the 2 questions I know I'm going to be asked now.

No, I do not have room to put a sump next to or behind the tank.
No, I do not have room to put up a larger tank, plus the floors
probably wouldn't survive.

I really love this hobby and don't want to quit but I really don't know what else to do :(

Michele

[3_high_low]

Dang, Michele. It's sounds like you're doing the right things. How long has the tank been set up? You only have one fishie?

When all else fails, I've had luck with Red Slime remover or Chemi-Clean. They are magic potions that kill the slime. (lol I think they contain antibiotics.)

[3_high_low]

Originally posted by gus1225
I'll apolagize now, this is going to be a long one.

Michele

I've seen much longer:D

[Skatereef]

Mabe try water changes,algae eating fish,less food,less lighting. Good luck

[gus1225]

The tank was set up this past June. I did forget about the peppermint shrimp who I never see. I only know he exists when I see the shell he leaves when he molts.

[oakhilldoc]

Give it more time. Just keep managing your tank and sometime within the year all that stuff will disappear and the real colors will come out. As the tank matures the algae goes away. Are you using a skimmer?

[oakhilldoc]

Sorry , see you are using a skimmer

[gus1225]

I'm a little concerned that the corals are going to disappear before the algae. They are starting to be smothered by it.

[SALTFISHDUDE]

How old are the bulbs in your lighting system?

[DiverD rufus]

Don't take it down here's a few things to do. Cut back on feeding,get alot of snails and a pincushion urchin or two for the algae and use some chemi-clean to help with the cyno until you get everything under control. The chemi-clean won't hurt anything but it will take care of the cyno and will make your tank look nicer till you get everything back to normal. Do your regular water changes and give it time it takes a while for your tank to mature. PS make sure you turn off your skimmer when you add the chemi-clean it will drive it nuts. Good luck just hang in there it will get better. If you any more questions you cam pm me.

[@LVIN]

try stocking up on your cleaning crews and algae eating fish, less photoperiod, and oh well, more circulation.

HTH. and lotsa' luck.

by the way, don't think about quitting.



@LVIN

[bennyinca]

I read about some Oceanic salt batches giving reefers some big time headache. If I find the link I'll post here. But try searching on "oceanic" here in RC. TM is probably the best salt out there IMO, but not sure if salt is where your prob is.

What type skimmer do you use, is it pulling some "yuck" from the water?

[MessyRoadKil]

Im thinking it might be a time issue. Try cutting down the time the lights are on. BEST OF LUCK!

[gus1225]

The bulbs are about 5 months old (how often should I change them?). For the past month I've been leaving them on for 8 hours a day hoping that would help. Should I shorten that time? My lighting system does have 2 moonlights but I wouldn't think that would be a problem????

By the way, thanks for always helping me with my many issues.

[gus1225]

Someone very rude just sent me an e-mail saying that I'm a horrible person for keeping corals in a 29g. I only have zoos, mushrooms, leathers, and a clownfish. Is this really that bad?

[dwarfatize]

no. Whoever sent it to you is a jerk. It sounds like you are just having the normal problems that everybody goes through. Is any of your rock lava rock by chance. I have found that lava rock causes cyno to grow.

[dave2184]

Someone very rude just sent me an e-mail saying that I'm a horrible person for keeping corals in a 29g. I only have zoos, mushrooms, leathers, and a clownfish. Is this really that bad?

Someone else on here had this same thing happen report it to a moderator good chance it's the same person. Oh and no there is nothing wrong with keeping corals in that size tank I have seen smaller reef tanks, much smaller.

[gus1225]

No lava rock here. All I have is live rock that used to be very beautiful shades of pink, purple, and reds - now it's brown.

Someone mentioned adding more to the cleanup crew like pincushion urchins. Stuff like that is pretty hard to find around here unfortunately. All I have right now is between 20-25 misc. snails. Should I get more?

[@LVIN]

Originally posted by gus1225
Someone very rude just sent me an e-mail saying that I'm a horrible person for keeping corals in a 29g. I only have zoos, mushrooms, leathers, and a clownfish. Is this really that bad?


don't mind him. he's such a jerk. just keep up with the husbandry.
g'luck !


@LVIN

[dwarfatize]

if you are having a problem with hair algea then you could try a ranfordi goby.

[Shy_Koi]

Originally posted by gus1225
Someone very rude just sent me an e-mail saying that I'm a horrible person for keeping corals in a 29g.

:eek2:
Ignore it Michelle - they must have got a lump of coal in their stocking, the other morning...
Don't throw in the towel. Nuisance algaes are a pita, and can be downright discouraging (I well know!). However, it sounds like you are doing things right. How is the alk and pH?
I have been battling something similiar, and in addition to decreased feeding & hours of light, and increased water changes, I started dripping kalk to get my pH and alk up. It seems to be slowly helping.
HTH,
~Tamara

[hwyman]

Just to maybe help you out, I made a hang on back fuge. Thing only holds about 4-5 gallons of water. Put it on our 55 gallon tank for nutrient export. That with some sand and rubble makes up our fuge. I think you should get a hang on back fuge if you can get one it will help alot. The fact that you said the macro grew rapidly shows that you got plenty of excess nutrients. A fuge full of macros will use that nutrients before the bad stuff has a chance too.

[reef & potito]

Dear Michelle...

We've all been there. We love our reef tanks but unfortunately problems are part of the hobby; not just in reefs but in all things in life.

Here is my 2 cents:

1. do a large water change. 10 gals. change salt. I like Coral life.
I've seen very experienced store owners make large water changes in their small reef tanks and they are doing great.
2. use red slime remover and turn off skimmer as previously mentioned.
3. if that does'nt work after a week, Use a phosphate sponge even if your phosphate levels are undectable using test. sometimes test kits show zero levels but phosphates must be present if algae is plaguing your tank. Many experienced reefers won't even test for phosphate if excess algae is growing. They just know through experience that that is the remedy.
4. As previously mentioned, increase water flow. Add a small maxijet pow. head.
5. Get a couple of turbo snails and hermit crabs.
6. shorten lighting period

You're going to be fine. Just be patient and don't give up on your reef tank. Soon someone else will have the same problem as you and you'll help them get through their time of despair.

lots of luck

[hwyman]

Here's a cheap HOB fuge that won't hurt your tank and will help get excess nutrients down.

hang on back fuge $35 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3212&item=4345679019&rd=1)

Also remember nothing good happens quickly in this hobby, so if the fuge doesn't seem to work at first over time it will.

[Briankook]

Yes, increase your water flow, make it as turbulent as possible...corals like it, cyno does not.

[gus1225]

Thanks for the help everyone. I'm going to ignore the moron who e-mailed me. For all I know they have a 30g tank with 3 tangs in it (probably not, but it makes me feel better). I'm going to keep working on my tank.

Here's what I think I'm going to start with:

10 gallon water change
Pick up a phosban reactor and start with a small amount of phosban and work my way up
switch salt brands - not quite sure yet, but I think I am going to try the tropic marin just because I have heard such good things about it- anyone want a new 200g bucket of Oceanic?
add another powerhead

Sounds like a plan to me!

[Cheesy_Puffs]

Someone very rude just sent me an e-mail saying that I'm a horrible person for keeping corals in a 29g. I only have zoos, mushrooms, leathers, and a clownfish. Is this really that bad?

OMG I didn't know corals swim! :eek:

Seriously I don't understand what that was about. We have corals (softy's) in our 20g long tank. Plus there is a Nano-reef forum in this site as well.

In any case try putting a hang on refugium on the back of the tank. IMO it can only help with the export of nutrients. Also try dripping kalc as it can help bind any inorganic phosphates and help stabalize your tank.

If it helps any alot of reefers have algae/slime algae problems. So your not alone in trying to keep algae under control.

[hwyman]

hehehehehehehehe
professional butt wiper
hehehehehehehehehehe
(falls off chair)
NOW THAT IS FUNNY.

[reef & potito]

dear Michelle:

Also, use good activated carbon. How's your Nitrate, alkality and ph?

We've all been there, running into problems and thinking about giving up; or at the very least, worrying and losing some sleep. Please don't give up; it's all part of becoming more experienced. Think about this... Even the best reefers always say they are still learning. And besides, if it were so easy, every dick and joe could do it. You're special just because you embarked on this awesome hobby; to me and many more, it's more than that.

If fall down, get up.

You can do it!

[gus1225]

Can I run carbon and phosban together in the reactor? Nitrate varies from day to day from not detectable to barely detectable in salifert kit. Maybe I need a new test kit. Alk 10 and pH 8.2.

[gus1225]

I've been trying to find some information on sailifert additives. I've posted a few times asking if anyone has had any experience with them. Rigth now I am using them and have been very happy. Just wondering if this could be a cause?

[ovenbird]

i think if the hobby was easy, many reefers would get bored and quit. More of a challenge the better. good luck

[dwarfatize]

what are you adding?

[gus1225]

I'm adding iodine, strontium, and bio coral/amino acids.

[reef & potito]

Dear Michelle:


Our little reefs may be little but can also cost a lot. Don't get a refugium. They help in some ways but complicate them in others and cost more money.

You don't need a phosphate reactor, You can buy a phosphate sponge, which is really a product that is granular and extracts phosphates from your water. All you need to do is put it in a place where water will filter through it. You can get one of those inexpensive hang on filters where water gets siphoned in, flows through your chosen media, and returns to your tank. Use the Phosphate remover first and make sure you read directions carefully. I used kent phosphate sponge and you must remove after a specified # of hours. After you do this, replace with the activated carbon of your choice. I like Marineland Black diamond.

You can get carried away with a lot of equipment. For a 29 gal. you're fine but get a reasonably price hang on filter to run carbon and phosphate remover should the need arise.

[reef & potito]

Dear Michelle:


Also, don't worry about additives. They complicate the hobby. Many very experienced reefers add little to their tanks, and if they do, they are running very large, high volume, high animal load tanks. Don't additives unless you know your are defficient. Chances are, since you have a 29 gal. soft coral tank and are doing regular water changes, you are not defficient in anything. You may to add a buffer if alkanity is low, maybe a little calcium but that is it. Don't add iodine, I don't think your need it, and besides that is not the source of your algae problem. Don't over-complicate this hobby. Don't go all over the map. You are not additive defficient.

Don't spend money unnecessarily, Unless of course, you've got it to burn.

Seems like you've got a lot of reefers who care about you.

[DiverD rufus]

Don't listen to that moron just stick with it, we all have been there it get better with time. Play with the timing on your lights and don't add anything you should be getting everything you need if your doing water changes and your not stocked to heavy. If that person emails you again tell them to go check out the nano forum they'll have a heart attack. Keep hanging in there it will be fine.

[gus1225]

i have tested for iodine and if I don't add some it's very low. should i worry about this?

[jorgemonteon]

Hi gus1225,

man, this is dejavu!

I just re-established my 40 gallon tank in May of this year and I pretty much went through what you described. First I went through the cyano bloom from hell between June to mid August, then proceeded to the hair algae bloom from September to late November. The hair algae bloom was terrible; the tank looked more like a rain forest than a reef tank...but Everything is peachy now (no cyano or hair algae whatsoever). So to throw in my two cents...here's what I did:

1. purchased new lights, all around (my previous lights were over a year old).

2. increased photperiod from 8 to 11 hours. I realize this sounds counter-intuitive, but I wanted the hair algae to outcompete the cyano...and oh-boy did it!

3. Manually removed cyano 2-3 times a week. I didn't care much about the cyano on the sand (it slowly started to die), but tried to remove as much as possible around the corals (turkey baster works very well for manual removal).

4. Once cyano was mostly gone, the hair algae kicked in something fierce! Again, I manually removed as much as possible 2-3 times a week.

5. Performed weekly water changes.

6. Scrubbed live rock with an old toothbrush to remove as much hair algae as possible on a daily basis...after doing this for only two weeks, I was able to obliterate/remove almost all hair algae.

7. Installed a phosphan reactor and added chaeto in fuge for nutrient absoption.

8. most importantly, have a lot of patience...and keep in mind that although your display tank may look very unappealing at the moment, it won't look like that forever!

I apologize for the lenghty reply, but I guess I'm just trying to encourage you to stick with it and not give up. It'll take some work, but in the end you'll be happy with the outocome.

later and good luck,
Jorge

[reef & potito]

dear Michelle:

Someone mentioned adding Kalkwasser and it works great for many tanks, however, for a small tank like yours, stabilizing ph, alk, and calcium can be accomplished with a lot less hassle by using a two part additive such as B-Ionic buffer system. Adding Kalkwasser wil require dripping it in your tank. It's not a bad way but a little more complicated in some ways. And should you decide to dose kalkwasser, You can do it, but I would only dose once a week. Besides, this is not the cause of your algae problem, this is a possible solution to your alkanity, ph, calcium problem if you even have one.

[reewik]

Sounds to me like you had a change of heart already. Make sure your skimmer is clean. You want to skim out as much as you can. I also say the carbon is a great help. i also agree do not add to much extra stuff. Water changes are usually sufficient. As you can see we all wish you the best of success with this addidction... oops I mean hobby!

[tacocat]

Drip Kalk, it will help grow coraline algae which will prevent nuisance algae from growing. Add more circulation, and when you are done, add more. :D. What are you using for circulation?

[gus1225]

You guys have been very helpful and quick at answering my questions so I'm going to ask another one. I'm currently testing for calcium, iodine, kh/alk, ph, mag, nitrate, silicates, strontium, and phosphates (all salifert). Should I continue all this?

[reef & potito]

Dear Michelle:

When I had the algae problem, I, too, scrubbed my rocks. Man, I mean woman, it's a pain in the butt and labor intensive. I scrubbed but it did not work for me. It seems to just to get it into the water column and redistribute it. Try what I reccomended first and if it doesn't work, Try more water changes which automatically removes nutrients from your water. Don't spend money on fancy equipment such as refugiums which contribute problems of their own and add more expense (equipment, lighting,pump, etc) besides, often times, the macroalgae you are trying to grow in your refugium will have a massive die-off and leach toxins into your tank and basically pollute it. I previously considered adding a refugium to lower nitrates but accomplished this much easier with a good protein skimmer. You have a good skimmer for the size of your tank so you should be okay.

[hwyman]

Originally posted by reef & potito
Don't get a refugium. They help in some ways but complicate them in others and cost more money.



They remove nitrates and phosphates from the water, provide a place to grow pods and snails, increase water amount, increase the biological filter (LS LR) and can provide you with a source of revenue (sell macro). Can you tell me what are the bad complications to this?

sorry, michelle but IMO a fuge would help alot more then throwing phosban bags all over your tank.

[reef & potito]

dear michelle:


You sure test for a lot of things and that is definitely ok. Basically I would test for the following:


1. Nitrates
2. alkanity
3. Ph
4. Calcium

The other tests are less critical for a soft coral tank but if you find defficiencies, I would dose with a a quality additive which adds a variety of essential elements. Dosing one thing at a time, such as iodine, strontium, etc., comlicates matters. Try using two little fishies Combisan which adds the majority of essential elements already in a balanced solution and only once a week.

Once thing I took to heart is this, Your reef tank must establish
a balance where it is happy and therefore, thriving. Adding all kinds of stuff makes it more difficult for your reef to naturally balance itself. With that said, it is a closed system so you have to intervene to some extent to help it thrive, but overdoing it contributes more variables to the equation.

[reef & potito]

Wow...


I have never posted so many replies on the same thread but for some reason, I feel I know where you're coming from...So I hope you don't mind if I'm being long winded.

Since you have a 29 gal. reef tank, variances in your salinity are going to be greater than a larger tank. Therefore, monitor your salinity regularly. Evaporation will increase salinity at a greater rate than say, a 50 gal. tank. So make sure you maintain your sality at the appropriate level. 1.023 is generally considered a good level. However, since you have a 29 gal. I would set my normal salinity at 1.020. therefore, when you have evaporation, this will increase to approx. 1.023 or so, and when you top it off it will lower it to 1.020 or so.

It is more difficult to maintain sality at a constant level with a smaller tank so set your normal level a little lower to compensate for variances due to evaporation. Don't over worry though, My 75 gal varies between 1.019 and 1.024 and everything is doing fine. Of course, the more stable, the better, but in practice, this is seldom accomplished to perfection. All we can do is do our best to stabilize the best we can. the smaller the variance, the better.

[gus1225]

I keep my sp gr at 1.024. I topoff every day and check the sp gr. I'm assuming that this is ok. I removed the glass top a while ago so there would be less light filtered so I tend to get a lot of evaporation. Come to think of it my algae problems seemed to start when I removed the glass top. Hmmmmm

[reef & potito]

Adding a refugium is a good way to go for larger tanks, but for a 29 gal. tank, it's like maintaining an additional tank. It adds to its complexity.

If the easier, less expensive methods don't work, ok. try something more elaborate. Furthermore, I never suggested a bunch of phosphate sponges, just one, and only for 1-2 days as reccomended by the manufacturer. It worked for me, that's all I know. Come on, it's a hell of a lot easier than adding a refugium. You realize, Michelle, a refugium is going to require the refugium, pump, lighting, and making sure the macroalgae you're trying to cultivate stays alive. If it dies, it will leach all kinds of nutrients into your water and further aggravate your problem. No disrespect to those who have experienced success with refugiums, but they cannot dispute the added expense and possible complications.

After all, we are talking about a 29 gal. reef tank.

[reef & potito]

Dear Michelle:


I would set my target specific gravity to 1.020. It is only going to get higher with evaporation.

Keep in mind that we are getting a little off the subject. Isn't your main problem nuisance algae? Do some 10 gal. water changes. This is going to minimize the nutrient levels in your tank right? Also, a phosphate sponge is going to remove phosphates in your tank which is probably the number 1 cause of nuisance algae in the majority of reef tanks. Think about it, you are going to need employ some sort of mechanical filtration from time to time, right? So you should at least have some way to accomplish this. For a 29 gal. reef. get the best, highest gal per hour hang on filter within reason. I'm talking 20-35 bucks. Put some phosphate remover in a filter bag, period. After the reccomended time frame, remove it and replace it with a carbor filter pad. Easy! Cheap!

Reduce your photo period. Algae requires light right? Take some away from your nuisance algae.

Increase water flow, try red slime remover, it worked for me too.

If this doesn't work, then maybe spend more money on equipment that will complicate matters.

[surfy]

Have you tested the TDS of your make up water? Sorry if it was answered before.
You may also want to look into cooking your rock,
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=437342

IMO I would stop adding any supps you don't need/test for. Your salt should replace most of what the corals will use.
I personally don't use any supps besides kalk for my top off.

Also make sure to siphon all the detritus you can each week. Blow off the rocks and filter out all the detritus, clean all filters/pads/sponge's etc. afterwards.

Last but not least get a larger skimmer. A larger skimmer made all the difference to my tank when I had an algae problem.
I would try another salt for a while. I'm not impressed with Oceanic right now myself.

[reef & potito]

dear Michelle:


Evaporation is what happens to all reef tanks. of course, it is added chore adding water, but on the plus side, you add clean, nutrient free water. I think most will agree, this is probably a good thing.

This is probably my last post until you update the progress of your tank after employing the suggestions you have received from the many friends you have here at reef central. We all have different approaches which have yielded us success. there is no one right way to go about solving our problems.

Go michelle go! Hope you feel better after the support you've received from Reef Central. After all, These are the same folks that have many a times, lifted my spirits when my spirit needed just that.

[surfy]

You also may want to try a larger pump on your skimmer. There are some pump mods floating around here somewhere.

[ScavDog]

Have you tested the TDS of your make up water? Sorry if it was answered before.

I'm not sure if I missed it in the thread, but are you using RO/DI makeup water?

[squeezix]

Sounds like everything is going normal. The only things that happen quickly in a reef tank are bad things. Don't go all OCD thinking your outbreaks are bad things. You are creating a biotope, it's going to go through some changes.

[reef & potito]

Dear Michelle:


I previously suggested doing a large water change, 10 gals. for your 29 gal. tank. Taking into consideration that you have rock, maybe a sand bed, and corals taking up space, a safer route is to initially make a couple of five gal. water changes the first week, and then make weekly five gal. for say a couple of weeks. Although, I would feel relatively comfortable making the ten gal. water change initially, many might feel this is too large.

[Shy_Koi]

I would set my normal salinity at 1.020. therefore, when you have evaporation, this will increase to approx. 1.023 or so, and when you top it off it will lower it to 1.020 or so.

It is more difficult to maintain sality at a constant level with a smaller tank so set your normal level a little lower to compensate for variances due to evaporation. Don't over worry though, My 75 gal varies between 1.019 and 1.024 and everything is doing fine.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with the above method. Swings in salinity like that, have got to be somewhat stressful for the inhabitants.
I have a 15g tank that stays between 1.024 - 1.025, by checking the salinity 2x daily (refractometer), and adding top off water prn (via an IV drip). I know from monitoring the evaporation, exactly how much to add at a time, and it only takes a few minutes to perform.

I wonder if removing the glass cover (which is a great idea, btw) allowed more light to enter the tank. That, along with possible excess nutrients may have helped contribute to the present algae bloom?

Lots of great advice here from fellow reefers, and I plan to employ a few of the methods offered. :cool:

Hang in there!
~Tamara

[hwyman]

Originally posted by reef & potito

I would set my target specific gravity to 1.020. It is only going to get higher with evaporation.


Why so low on the salinity? hypo to get rid of algae? corals ain't going to like that. specific gravity should be 1.024 to 1.026. To low and you will stress your corals.
Dr. Rons article on salinity. Near the bottom of the page. (http://web.archive.org/web/20020610144845/www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/nov/features/1/default.asp)

[hwyman]

PS a fuge will help maintian your salinity, extra water means less of an impact by evaporation.

[haid]

My guess from reading this thread is that your alkalinity/calcium is out of wack. You are using a salt that is known to mix up at a low alk when compared to calcium. You are doing a lot of water changes which is probably making matters worse. Do some reading on the Alk/Cal. relationship. Either switch salt(slowly) or add an alkalinity supplement to the water before performing the change. Anyway I would say you have low Alk. This is where I would suggest you spend your time until disproved anyway. Also keep in mind that the smaller volume of water you are working with the harder it is to maintain stability. However it looks like you have a good maintenance routine. On a further note I would probably bump the flow up some, make sure there is no detritus settling into the rockwork. Good Luck, and I have been there before as well. When I finally got PH, ALK, CAL stabalized it cleared up. Running a higher ALK seemed to really improve the whole situation. Also I would recommend the Salinity in the 1.025 range. It doesn't seem like you have any problems obtaining make up water so evaperation shouldn't be too much of an issue.

[reefman89]

I had that same problem in my 29 gal for like a month. If you get some snails, and maybe a lawnmower blenny it should help you. I know it helped me. Good luck.
Ps the coral guy was a jerk.

[Pez Vela]

get a turbo snail & drop 1/2 a Eurythomiacin (sp?) tablet in the tank. Brown Algae and red cyano gone! As for the hate mailer, forget about it and go on having fun with the hobby.

If we all felt having corals in any size aquarium smaller than the ocean or sea they came from, we would all be snorklers or scuba divers rather than reefers!

mike