Thumbs up for Chemi-Clean

[chiton]

After months of battling red slime in my tank with all the 'non-chemical' techniques, I finally gave in. Numerous people on this board have recommended Boyd's Chemi-Clean, but I was VERY hesitant to dump some unknown chemical in my tank, hoping it would only target red slime and leave all other life alone.

Man did it work great!!!!!

Now, my question is...what is it? It claims to also oxidize trapped organic sludge and sediment. Does anyone know what the oxidizing agent is? The bottle says it contains no phosphates, algaecides, or erythromycin succinate.

Chiton

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not believe that we know exactly what it is (which is one reasont that I do not recommend it generally).

Can you describe what it looks like?

[chiton]

It is a very fine white powder.

Chiton

[Boomer]

I'm thinking Alum Randy :rolleyes:

[jfinch]

hmmm... it does taste an awful lot like alum. Isn't alum a flocculant? Why would a floc kill cyano?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Jon:

Did it raise the ORP in your mouth? :lol:


Boomer, you have a theory on what it does to cyano?

[Boomer]

The same thing it is used for in natural waters, home ponds an some FW aquariums, a flocculent as a major anti-algaecide, usually for algae blooms. Like activated alumina it removes PO4.

The chemistry is;

On contact with water, alum forms a fluffy aluminum hydroxide precipitate called floc. Aluminum hydroxide (the principle ingredient in common antacids such as Maalox) binds with phosphorus to form an aluminum phosphate compound. This compound is insoluble in water under most conditions so the phosphorus in it can no longer be used as food by algae organisms. As the floc slowly settles, some phosphorus is removed from the water. The floc also tends to collect suspended particles in the water and carry them down to the bottom, leaving the water noticeably clearer. On the bottom of a lake, pond or aquarium the floc forms a layer that acts as a phosphorus barrier by combining with phosphorus as it is released from the sediments.

For many lakes and ponds this control has lasted for up to 8 years, based on studies. This includes the control of Cyano.


Although algae may still bloom with aeration, cyanobacteria do not thrive in moving water. Cyanobacteria tend to bloom under warm, calm conditions. Proper aeration helps to prevent these conditions from occurring.

If a bloom begins to form in a surface water source, determine the size and type of the bloom. If it is a filamentous bloom, there are a few options. Small filamentous algal blooms close to shore can be removed with a rake or hoe and placed away from the watershed area to prevent re-entry of the dead bloom into the water. Filamentous algae decompose easily, and can be used for compost if combined with other materials to increase air circulation.

Large blooms of planktonic or filamentous organisms are more difficult to handle. If the situation is severe, there are a number of chemical options available for treating surface water. Be aware that no chemical treatment is completely effective for long term control. Cyanobacteria can build up tolerance to repeated chemical applications. Chemical application should only be used as a last resort, not as routine maintenance.

Chemical treatment options commonly include one of the following four compounds:
copper sulfate
lime (as quicklime, or calcium hydroxide)
alum (as aluminum sulfate
ferric chloride

Lime, alum and ferric chloride are all coagulants - they bind with suspended and dissolved particles to form clumps that settle to the bottom of the dugout. This includes binding with algae and cyanobacteria

I'm not saying this is what Chemi-Clean is but all the descriptions I have been give in the last year are like an exact blueprint of Aluminum sulfate....Alum


Jon

You have some ? Put some in a glass of water and then add some phosphate indicator form a PO4 test kit :D If it turns really blue .........upa-upa

[jfinch]

Yup, I've got some. I'll try the phosphate indicator into a little mixed with water. But isn't alum aluminum sulfate? Why would it turn blue? Isn't phosphate indicator a molybdate that reacts with PO4 and then something to reduce the phosphomolybdate (ascorbic acid?) to a molybdenum blue color. Will alum reduce the molybdate?

Did it raise the ORP in your mouth?

I don't even own an orp meter, but it does pucker the lips :D

[jfinch]

Hey, I think I could test it for sulfate. We have the reagent (SulfaVer 4 powder pillows) and the spectrophotometer here at work. The method suggests that a new calibration be preformed for each new batch of SulfaVer 4 reagent pillows which I'm sure is outdated and I can't do, but it should at be good enough to tell if there's sulfate present.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Jon: Great. Let us know what you find.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Boomer. :thumbsup:

[jfinch]

Hey, the sufate test appears to be pretty good. I don't have any of the Chemi-Clean here at work, but I do have some tank water. I had to dilute it 1:100 (range of the test is only 0-70 ppm) and got 27 ppm. So my tank water is 2700 ppm SO4 according to this test. I'll check the Chemi-Clean tomorrow.

[Boomer]

Why would it turn blue? Isn't phosphate indicator a molybdate that reacts with PO4

:rollface: :rollface: :rollface: :rollface:

I don't know what the h_ll I was thinkin' Jon. Must be the grave yard shift I'm on :D

Hey, I think I could test it for sulfate

Great thinkin, at least you are on the ball ;)

[jfinch]

hmmm... I don't think it's alum.

I dissolved 50 mg of chemi-clean in 50 ml of water (1000 mg/l solution). So assuming that the alum is KAl(SO4)2*12(H2O) the solution should have been close to 400 mg/l SO4. When tested it only showed 2 mg/l SO4. Even after dumping about 25 mg of chemi-clean into the 25 ml test vial, the SO4 concentration only increased to 5 mg/l.

[polcat_4u]

Can't spell chemistry...but could it be lanthanum chloride. Is there a way to test for that?

[polcat_4u]

The lanthanum chloride formulation is more efficient and removes 1,000 to 1,500 ppb phosphate for 32 ounces in 20,000 gallons of water. Lab studies prove the lanthanum chloride formulation removes higher levels of phosphate faster than a lanthanum carbonate compound. Lanthanum chloride also doesn't interfere with hardness or alkalinity.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All of those studies are in fresh water, I believe. I believe that it will be less effective in marine systems. Lanthanum will also not oxidize anything, so I expect that is not it.

[Boomer]

Another theory down the tube Jon :(

KAl(SO4)2*12(H2O)

Actually it is (Al 2 (SO 4 ) 3 ) but there are other formulations;

Al2(SO4)3 • 14H2O

(K 2 SO 4 • Al 2 (SO 4 ) 3 • 24H 2 O)

(A 12 (SO 4 ) 3 • 14H 2 O) and (A l2 (SO 4 ) 3 •18H 2 O)

but others also

'The one you posted is the Chinese stuff :D

[jfinch]

~25 mg mixed into 25 ml of DI water results in a pH in the mid 3s. I can't believe it, our lab doesn't have a portable ORP meter (they're all stuck in our cooling water towers) so I can't check ORP.

I'm looking a list of common coagulants/flocculants in the Nalco Water Handbook. There are four that mix up to an acidic pH. Alum, FeCl3, Fe2(SO4)2, and FeSO4. I couldn't detect sulfate and ferric chloride isn't a white powder is it? It appears that it's not any of those. I can also test for iron on the spectrophotometer, but we're backordered on replacement reagent.

Could it be a peroxide of sorts? Permangante is always going to be purple or brown isn't it?

'The one you posted is the Chinese stuff

Would you like green tea or jasmine with that? :D

[Boomer]

Permangante is always going to be purple or brown isn't it?

Yes, Thiel and I played with that stuff allot. I have never seen this stuff, so can't say much. Jon, do you have access to an XRD, that will tell us what the h_ll it is for sure :D

[jfinch]

I have never seen this stuff, so can't say much.

It looks just like kalkwasser. A very fine grained white powder.

The product claims:

* Removes red cyano from live coral
* Oxidizes trapped organic sludge and sediment
* Clarifies water and promotes ideal enzyme balance.

Safe for reef tanks, all invertebrates, desirable macro algaes, nitrifying bacteria and fish. (edit: if the product actually works then it's probably not safe for everything listed)

Contains no phosphates, algacides or erythromycin succinate.

My experience is that it does absolutely nothing to this type of algae/bacteria/dino (whatever it was):

http://www.xmission.com/~jfinch/dinolem.jpg

And it really makes your skimmer foam. I didn't notice any adverse effects on tank inhabitants either, but I didn't have a lot in the tank at the time.

do you have access to an XRD...

No we send that sort of stuff out. I'd have to con our Betz support guy into it :D

[chiton]

Safe for reef tanks, all invertebrates, desirable macro algaes, nitrifying bacteria and fish. (edit: if the product actually works then it's probably not safe for everything listed)

Exactly...how can it be safe for nitryfying bacteria but kill off cyanobacteria?

I was really worried about it's effects on all the crazy macros (http://users.adelphia.net/~bcpatterson/Macro_Algaes.htm) I keep in my display, but it did not harm any of them, nor any of my corals.

Chiton

[Boomer]

I'd have to con our Betz support guy into it

For the interest of science (reef keeping) :D

Those look like Cyano, like Lyngbya majuscula "Maidens's Hair"

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ferric salts will be colored, especially as the pH is raised to neutrality. Ferrous salts may be colorless or various colors, but will turn brown if a small amount in water is left out to the air (forming ferric ion).

[Ereefic]

I know this is an oldie, but did anything else get figured out about what this stuff is?

[jfinch]

Nothing new from me... work got in the way of my play.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No by me either. :)