Closed Loop Advice Needed!!

[Wolfmann81]

Okay, bear with me. I am wanting to set up a closed loop system on my 75G reef, with a mag 24 (got a great deal on it). Can you please look at the diagram which I have constructed (gotta love MS Paint) and give me (many) suggestions. Could you please address what specs I might need for the items labeled

--Check Valves (Ball Valves, or the other type--can't remember what they are called
--Output Tubes (what size for the main branch, what size for after the first split?)
--Input tube (How big? PVC or Flex tube?)

I am obviously trying to not have the system cavitate, so will need the appropriate size pipes for plumbing. This will be a big project, need advice!

[Wolfmann81]

Sorry, I can't get the image to load, my internet is acting up and won't let me go to the page. You can see the diagram in my gallery, it would be much appreciated if you would refer to that for the diagram that I was talking about

[Mr James]

Ditch the flow-robbing check valves and submerge the returns. Also, as far as I know, Mag Drive pumps don't suck water up (elevation), so you will have to have the Mag lower than your drain line. Try this method minus the SCWD: http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html

[prop-frags]

You do not need check valves in a closed loop system. Think about it, the water has no where to drain to; the plumbing for a closed loop is essentially an extension of the water in your tank with a pump in the middle to move it around. It is basically a complicated external powerhead. You can put ball valves on both sides of the pump for easier removal and maintenance; I just put plugs on the intake and outlets when I clean mine.

[Wolfmann81]

Okay, I see what you are saying--sounds good. What pipe sizes might anybody suggest for both input and output to reduce cavitating? I think I will be putting ball valves next to the pump, one on the input side and one on the output side, so I can cease the water flow to clean the pump. Mr. James, can the PVC input piece (on Meleevs closed loop system) with the holes be bought, or must the holes be drilled (the part that actually takes water from the display?)

[mikerando]

I am going to show my ignorance, But what is a closed loop system? I have just built a 25g sump to go under my 75g display and have an Iwaski 30 return pump (it may be way to much pump). When I turned the the pump on it drained the sump in seconds. The overflow box couldn't begin to keep up. I was about to place a gate valve (is metal OK?) in the return to regulate the water level when I started reading the forum.

Some basic explanation of the closed loop concept would be very helpful.

[Mr James]

Wolfman: It has to be drilled. Personally, I used the sleeve that comes with most Oceanic and AGA tanks in the overflow. I think I you can make out the sleeve in the picture, see below. I put a PVC cap on the bottom to prevent snails, fish and crabs from going in and clogging the system. If I didn't have this, I would have had a problem for sure.
edit: You may also want to consider upcaling your drain line to reduce cavatating adn increase flow. This ios something I did not do and wish I had. Also, notice in the biottom picture on the Sequence pmp we used true union ball valves. Ball valve and union in one application.

Mike: A CL (Closed Loop) is additional water circulation via submerged drain and return lines, usually to an external pump. Some people prefer powerheads and Tunze's for circulation. The CL pump should only be dedicated to the CL. The CL has been discussed and fine-tuned on this site, please do a search on Closed Loop to help you design the best one. See the picture below as it serves double duty. I used both the holes in my overflow as drains to the sump. You may also want to think about teeing off of your return line to another device like a calcium reactor, chiller or even a skimmer. I added a second picture that shows our Sequence pump. It has a tee right above the output and it goes to our chiller. In addition, you could simply tee off of your return and go back to the sump controlled by a ball valve. I have seen a ton of diagrams that show this as a way to burn off excess flow.
edit: Do not use any metals with a saltwater tank. I am sure they make plastics applications for whatever you need.

Drain and sleeves:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/7762rc_twin_Dursos_on_75g.jpg


Return with Tee:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/7762rc_Sequence5200.jpg

[mikerando]

Perfect. Thank You

[Wolfmann81]

I have been doing some figuring/thinking/fabricating. Would it be adequate to do my lines at 1.5" diameter, or would someone suggest 1 1/4"?
What do you mean by "true union" ball valves? Are the ball valves the red knobs which limits water through? And can those union be picked up at HD or a plumbing place?

Also, I am going with a mag pump, but am planning on attaching a PVC line directly to the input valve, because it will not be run in a sump (it will be ran dry). Will the Mag be able to pull water out of the tank, or will the gravity effect be adequate to pull water from the display?? I don't have the option as of right now to use a sump. Does this create any significant problems?

Also-What is SCWD?

[Mr James]

If you don't understand some the verbiage used below, use the Search function and look it up. Asking questions is fine, but searching is also your responsibility. I am doing a search and reading about "coral heaven" (a type of coral food)as we speak. I too have a 75g reef tank. My closed loop is run by an external pump, the Little Giant 3-MDQX-SC. If I were you, I would look into a bigger pump, but that's just me.

The Mag input/output is like 3/4" I think?!? I would use a 1" drain and a 3/4" return on your closed loop. The return I would have split into two or four 1/2" return nipples or similar. See the picture of my spray bar below, I have since replaced that spray bar with a simple Loc-Line return.

SCWD = Switching Water Current Device. Please do a search for it here on Reef Central. Or you can see the website of the guy that brought the SCWD to our attention, Lunchbucket ( http://www.lunchbucket.org/SCWD.htm )... A "true union ball valve" is simply a ball valve paired by unions, all in one fixture. Otherwise, you would have to get two unions and a single ball valve which in turn can add up to several more inches of PVC than what you wanted. It's a space saver I guess.

Here is a picture on the "true union ball valves" on my GenX/Mak4 pump serving my skimmer. I got them locally at Lowes. I need the ball valve for flow control because the pump is too big for that particular skimmer and I need the unions so I can remove the pump for cleaning. It's all-in-one handy unit. There are also some space requirements that are too hard to explain in words. I am sure that once you start plumbing and re-plumbing tanks, you will see what I mean by a space-saving application.

Sump left: GenX/Mak4 with a pair of true union ball valves.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/7762rc_sump_left.JPG

Spray bar application

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/7762rc_spray_bar.jpg

[Wolfmann81]

Thank you for your continued help Mr. James

[Wolfmann81]

I unfortunately do not have a Lowe's or HD here in this small town which I live in. It is going to be an order situation for the plumbing supplies which I am going to need, so cannot do a hands-on exercise of trial and error.
What might one use to support PVC so it does not rest directly on the lid of the tank? Is there 'holders/fasteners' of some kind which can be used for support which effectively holds PVC in place. I have seen many pictures (including those listed on this posting) but cannot determine if there is these 'fasteners' which I am talking about, or the sheer rigidity of PVC which 'holds' it in place. I have a fairly complicated construction of PVC ahead of me, and would like to have it fastened in place. However, I will be wanting to be able to move it (but no superglue, for obvious reasons).

[Mr James]

Hangars are available, but I would think that would only be required for bigger diameter PVC. For fastening PVC to the inside of my stand, I use a type of plastic strip with holes in it. I don't know what it is called, but I am sure most hardwares carry it in the plumbing section. I looked up your town on MapQuest. I would trade a view of the mountains for my Home Depot, Lowes and Menards!! I'd even throw in the local TSC (Tractor Supply Company) as a bonus. I assume you live in a mountainous area?!? Are there any hardwares nearby?? How far are you from Spokane?? Premium Aquatics is a 2 hour drive for me, but is worth it!!

Here are some decent online plumbing stores that I order from when I cannot find the hard-to-find stuff:

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/default.asp
http://www.savko.com./
http://www.plumbingstore.com/pvc.html
http://modularhose.com/

And these guy's sites' has some pretty cool things to do with acrylic and PVC:
http://www.melevsreef.com/
http://barraquatic.com/
http://www.hawkfish.org/snailman.htm

ahh, and the there was Richard Durso: http://www.dursostandpipes.com/

[Wolfmann81]

Sounds good Mr. James. Well, it is funny you mention the mountains! I have never been nearly as far easy as Indiana, but I have heard the stories of 'flat as the eye can see!' Pullman is actually on wheat fields, which could be more characterized as 'rolling hills.' Flat, by Washington standard, but not flat compared to what you are used to! I am at work right now, and asked around and there is actually a couple of local plumbing stores around here-definitely worth taking a look at! I am going to be using 1.5" input PVC, and 1 1/4" output. I will hopefully be going home to construct a diagram on paint (as I did the previous one) where people might be able to give me criticisms about it. Like I said previously, I am going with the mag 24 (I know it is a ton of flow, but I got it for a good price). I'll post the picture that I create later.
Also, there is a 'perfect' spot which would equip a SWCD. It may be something to think about, regarding getting one, but I will post the pic, and then wait on input to see if it would be a good call. More later. Please advise on piping size.

Clayton

[Wolfmann81]

By the way, the inputs/outputs on the mag 24 are both 1" (1 male, 1 female). Is it an easy conversion if I want to upscale piping size?

[Wolfmann81]

Okay, here is the newest diagram (second draft) of my closed loop system that I am building. I am looking for comments/suggestions which people might have concerning pipe sizing, ball valve placement (any place else) or anything else that comes to mind! The green is the intake section, descends along the backside of the tank to the external pump, back up to the back of the tank, runs along the top edge of the canopy, "T's" off, and goes into four outputs back into the display. Please suggest!

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75100&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500

[prop-frags]

Looks fine. What kind of output nozzles are you going to use? You'll probably want some way to direct the flow. Also make sure you have a good screen fitting for the intake, it will be pulling in some serious flow and stuff will be flying in there. Make it easy to reach, clean, etc. Food and nutrients will collect on the intake, and it will get crusted over with coralline pretty fast, you'll have to clean it frequently to keep it flowing well. Check out the Locline stuff for nozzles - it's expensive but it's great for changing out different styles as your needs for different flow changes.
http://www.newmantools.com/loc.gif

[Wolfmann81]

I was just planning on using T sections and elbow sections of PVC for current direction(s). However, I am certainly open to suggestions. I will check out the website for the Locline output devices.
What kind of screen would I get. What I had/have planning on doing was drill holes in a piece of PVC, but I am thinking--would that also be too large of openings, allowing all matters of foods and detritus to enter. My previous thoughts have just concerned fish, snails, crabs, etc. but certainly do not want to jeopardize my pump by sending all matter of gunk down there to it! Screen suggestions, or is PVC w/ holes adequate?

[SHOmuchFUN]

Why do you have your pump resting on the floor? I would build a stand for it, so it doesn't have to pump up all 36" If you place it higher (closer to the water's surface) you eliminate the head distance and actually increase flow.

[Wolfmann81]

Yes, that's true. This is what I figure. It firstly will not be resting on the floor. I am running it (and the descending 1 1/2 PVC) down the back of the tank, 6 inches in back, attached to a 3 ft 2X4, attached to the studs in the wall. At the bottom of this 36", I will have a platform for it to rest on (like a small shelf) attached also to this board. I chose a somewhat random # for two reasons. I am somewhat concerned about causing too much flow (2400gph pump in a 75G tank), so 3ft of head isn't really going to compromise too much at all (still will pump 2000gph+). I also did this, to make sure that my pump was adequately lower than my intake in my tank. I wanted to make sure to get a good pull from the tank down to the pump, so I put it quite low to make sure that principle was ensured. Let me try a diagram of what I am talking about. To be added in a bit when I fabricate it.

[Wolfmann81]

Okay, here is a side view draft of what I mean by the PVC being attached to a board on the wall. The output (which I just stopped at the top) will actually be attached to the canopy of my tank, that is why it is higher. The intake will be transversing the back lip of my tank. You can see the 'stand' that I am planning on attaching to the wood, which the pump will sit on. I will probably use an "L" bracket to attach the 'stand' to the wood.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75136

[Wolfmann81]

Alright, hopefully there is still some people that have been following this post. And for all of the people that originally helped me out with the design/functions of the closed loop which is now set up, I figured I would at least allow them to see my finished product.

I ended up going with a mag 24. The intake line is 1 1/2" PVC, which is taken from drain holes (inside the tank), up over the back lip of the tank, and down 3' to the mag 24. I also installed a screw-cap primer on the top of the drain line. I used true unions located on either side of the pump, so I can close off the system, and remove the pump for maintenance. This element should be considered indespensable (sp?). Do not go w/o the true unions (even though each one was $30 apiece, just for the unions + gate valves).

From the mag 24, it makes a 90 degree turn and goes up 3' back to a "T" at the bottom of the oak canopy. The T turns into two 1 1/4" PVC lines. From there, it has one output which goes into the tank. I have a gate valve on either horizontal line which moderates flow between the two outputs on either side.

The finished effect is a mag 24 in a closed loop which delivers water to 4 different outputs in a 75G tank. It is a TON of flow, but is a great accessory flow system. Due to quite a bit of noise, I run the CL (on a timer) from about 10am-5pm (during the times no one is in the house because I am at work!!) which works out well, because it turns the water like crazy. I figure (w/ 3' of head, and many 90 degree turns) that I probably have about 2250gph. That amount plus two maxi-jet 1200's (which run 24 hrs/day) puts me at about 2500 gph. That amount turns my tank over about 33.3X/hr.

All in all, the entire CL system cost about $200-250. The mag 24 (from Marine Depot) was about $135, and the rest was spent on plumbing supplies.

All of the pictures of the entire process has been put in my gallery. Please feel free to comment. The only part I don't like is the noise, and the PVC piping in the tank. You can see it in my gallery. However, the PVC will eventually be covered with corraline algae (already has started) so will make it not look so ugly with 1 1/4" PVC pipes invading my tank!!

[Wolfmann81]

Here is the order of assembly:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82407&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82408&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82410&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82401&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82399&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82406&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82406&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82402&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82411&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82409&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82405&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=82404&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500

Can someone show me how to post the actual pictures, so you can just scroll down while watching them? That is what I would rather do. Is that something you have to pay for? Anyway, there is the order.

[mike89t]

Originally posted by Wolfmann81
Can someone show me how to post the actual pictures, so you can just scroll down while watching them? That is what I would rather do. Is that something you have to pay for? Anyway, there is the order.

View the desired photo in your Gallary.

Move the cursor over the photo and press the right mouse button to open the Right Mouse Menu and select Properties.

From the Properties panel, highlight the entire "http address" for the photo from the Address field. The press the Right mouse button again and select "Copy"

Now create a new post where you will display your photo.

There is a button in the vB Code section called IMG. Press the IMG button which opens a small panel where you can paste the "http address" that you copied earlier(from the right mouse menu slect paste). Select the OK button and it sould put the code to display your photo in the post.

Hope that helps.