DIY Icecap...its not what you think

[Slartibartfast]

Just FYI, there is a GE bulb, part number GE40904 that is supposed to by 9325 K. I see some of them for sale online, but I haven't seen any in the store.

Home depot doesn't seem to carry T8s in 36" size, so I am going to have to go to a specialty store.

Does anyone know if you can overdrive a 12" tube for a nano?

[mswt5]

you could probably overdrive any flourescent bulb just as long as its not too much

[Slartibartfast]

Right. But I don't know if you can find a 4-way ballast that is designed to run 12" tubes. :)

The 4-way ballasts seem designed for industrial applications, and I can't image an industrial application that would need a bunch of 12" tubes.

Maybe Santa's workshop....:D

[mswt5]

wow....i just realized your from round rock....cool....im from around there

[mswt5]

get a 2 way....you dont necessarily have to have a 4 way.....what is the wattage on a 12" bulb?

[Slartibartfast]

This is my attempt at documenting the difference in the lights. This is a 3' 30W T-12 actinic bulb. I used "exposure lock" on my camera, so the exposure should be the same between these two shots.

1X overdrive:

http://home.austin.rr.com/kilpatrick/AquariumImages/1X.JPG

4X overdrive:

http://home.austin.rr.com/kilpatrick/AquariumImages/4X.JPG

And here is the PC vs NO:

http://home.austin.rr.com/kilpatrick/AquariumImages/PC%20vs%20NO.JPG

Appearance-wise, it does seem brighter than my 96 Watt PC from AH-supply (as I would hope it would). The PC is of unknown age, so I am sure that is a factor. Also, I can touch the NO indefinitely but the PC for only a few seconds. Clearly I am losing a lot of watts on the PC to heat.



Slartibartfast

[mswt5]

wow....nifty....what type bulbs are those and what type ballast are you using?

[Slartibartfast]

Here is "before"

http://home.austin.rr.com/kilpatrick/AquariumImages/Tank-07-01-02.JPG

Here is "after"

http://home.austin.rr.com/kilpatrick/AquariumImages/Post%20OD%20Actinic.JPG

This is basically the result of switching from an old PC to a new overdriven NO actinic.

Not a huge difference in the camera, but it is definitely brighter and less yellow to my eye.

[mswt5]

oh sorry....i see

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by mswt5
wow....nifty....what type bulbs are those and what type ballast are you using?

The bulb is a generic actinic from the pet store. Expensive ($14), but I wanted to play around today. :) Still, even at pet store prices it is a lot cheaper than $40 for a replacement PC actinic.

The ballast is pretty much the same one everyone is talking about here. Mine is a Magnetek electronic ballast, designed to run 4 lights. I got it at Home Depot for $27, and the box was covered in a huge layer of dust. :)

mswt15, you are welcome to come by and check it out if you are in the neighborhood. I sent you my email address.

Next, I am planning to swap out the regular PCs, if I can find 3' T8s anywhere that are 6500K. No luck at any of the home supply stores.

[mswt5]

on the original post there was something that said not to use magnetic ballasts becuase they worked different but if your not having any probs i guess they work......my overdriven NOs run about the same brightness as my PC.....how did you get them so bright?....of course my PC is a 6500K but i dont know......how would you be able to tell how many watts your actually putting through a bulb??.....because im using a 4x32 on a 20W bulb but i dont know if im getting as much power as the rest of yall

[Slartibartfast]

Whoa! :eek2:

Magnatek is a brand name. It is an *electronic* ballast. The original guy wasn't wrong -- magnetic ballasts work on an entirely different principle.

I think mine just looks extra bright in comparison to a PC actinic that was essentially worn out. I don't expect it to be a lot brighter than a PC, just to have bulbs that are a lot cheaper.

You can measure power consumption with a multi-meter (be extra careful with house current), or also a "clamp on" meter that measures current just by clamping it on a power cord. (current gives you the power)

[mswt5]

OOPS......haha.....sorry

[Slartibartfast]

I am using the GE Magnatek ballast that comes from Home Depot. I've noticed that the power consumption is the same (60 watts or so) whether I use one or both yellow wires. It seems like the ballast is not providing any additional current through the second yellow wire.

Any suggestions?

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
I am using the GE Magnatek ballast that comes from Home Depot. I've noticed that the power consumption is the same (60 watts or so) whether I use one or both yellow wires. It seems like the ballast is not providing any additional current through the second yellow wire.

Any suggestions?

ya use the right wires :) seriously thought the yellows are the return pqth and you have to use both of them.. it is the red and blue wires you want to double up on.

Steve

[Slartibartfast]

Either way, it doesn't matter to me. :)

I tied all the red and blue together. If I use one yellow or two yellow, I get the same wattage, same brightness.

I think this ballast must work differently from the Advance ballast.

[ToeCutter]

If anyone has knows 18" T8 parts numbers for the lamps and ballasts, please post them.

I'm planning on using 2 overdriven NO bulbs for my 10 gal nano.

Also, if you have found any suppliers for those parts, it would be great if you could post those also.

TIA

[DerrickT]

Advance Transformer Co.
High Frequency Electronic Ballast for (1) or (2) F32T8 Lamps
Model: #VEL2P32SC35I
SKU: #362376


17.49 at www.homedepot.com I thought it was around 35 dollars?

I think yours is around 15watts for 18" bulbs. Plug in two outputs from this ballast so you'll be 4x overdriving your 18".

[Krusk]

What is the advantage of over drive the NO e-ballast?

cost advantage over the VHO ballast?

Yes, we will save some $$$ if we over drive instead of getting IceCap ballast?

I'm sure some of you aware of WorkHorse 7 (220 W) e-Ballast for VHO.

If we want to have 2 Overdrive(4x) NO ballast:

we need 2 of (4)F32T8 e-ballasts. They are cost about $29.97 at HomeDepot (Advance manufacture). We are talking about $59.94 for 2 ballasts.


We can also get the WorkHorse 7 e-ballast for about $50 to fire 2 110 watt VHO bulbs.

I don't really see the saving advantage between over drive and the workhorse 7.

If I'm missing something please let me know.

[DerrickT]

They are 17 bucks at home depot.

Advance Transformer Co.
High Frequency Electronic Ballast for (3) or (4) F32T8 Lamps
Model: #REL4P32SC35I
SKU: #261255
17.49

Also, you have complete control over single bulbs, turning one on and leaving others off. Second, if one ballast blows, it is 17 dollars. I am not sure if the WH7 can do this, though.

[Krusk]

WH 7 do not allow you to control each bulbs on/off.

WH 7 do allowed dimable. I dont think Advance ballast allow you to do so.

And seen most of us or not all of us used timer for the lighting system. Is that mean we need to get additional Timer? yes it's only a few bucks.

I think it make sense if we setting this up for 55 G or smaller tank and only have 2 bulbs. We wanted to create dawn/dusk effect.

It's doesn't make sense if our tank is required 4 or more bulbs.

Again, if I'm missing something please let me know.

[DerrickT]

If you've read my post above, you'll see the Advance is 17 dollars.

Second, dimming flourescent cuts its life even shorter; flourescents are not design for that purpose.

Third, we can get these at our local home depots instead of ordering them.

Fourth, the original discussion was using these types of ballast (advance, wh) compare to the icecaps.

Thx

[Krusk]

Do you have any expericen on Lamp's life? when are you doing 1x 2x or 4x over drive?


thanks you

[DerrickT]

I don't, but the original author of this thread and others say the average life of a 4x F32T8 bulb is 6 months. Replacing them shouldn't be much cost since they are around 5 US dollars? For actinic, it is of course more expensive since they run around 20 dollars. However, running regular actinics at 2x or even normal output should be fine on reefs. It is the intensity of the low kelvin spectrums that seems to matter the most.

But the bottom line to this is it beats the heck out of buying an icecap for people on low budget like I am. Plus you can always upgrade as time goes by. You can always ask the author of this thread for more answers.

[GROSSR]

I want to get rid of my ICECAP. What gets me is if one bulb goes they all go.

So now I must scramble to or better yet, send 20 bucks a bulb to replace them say at 9 months.

Here I can get a dawn/dusk effect, if I want, I only spend 5 bucks a bulb for T8 6500k bulbs. And if one bulb goes, the other three ballasts work fine. And in theory I get brighter light.

[Oppsea]

Post so I can find this link again.

[jonboy]

Where have you folks been getting the bulbs from?
I have searched Louisville,high and low, to find these bulbs.
I called the specialty lighting distributors. No luck.
Any info. would be appreciated.
Jonboy

[Oppsea]

I spent a bunch of time going through this huge post, got tired, I'll just ask.

As any one connect the Advancec e ballast up to one 160 VHO tube?

[waj]

Originally posted by Oppsea
I spent a bunch of time going through this huge post, got tired, I'll just ask.

As any one connect the Advancec e ballast up to one 160 VHO tube?

Which ballast? The 4 x 32 watt ballast won't work on a 160 watt lamp. The maximum ballast output is only 112 watts. It should light the lamp but at a much lower ballast factor than you want. I am not positive which lamp you are talking about. Is it a 6' VHO lamp designated F72 VHO or is it something else. If you want to just run a VHO lamp just buy a VHO ballast or an HO sign ballast. Advance has over a dozen VHO ballasts to choose from.

Wayne

[kentrob11]

I just recived my 48" 10k and actinic T8 bulbs....I ordered them online from thatfishplace.com. Go check out their website- there's a variety of t8's out there

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

VHOs on an electonic ballast (4xF32T8s)

Yes, you can drive one VHO with this setup...although, the lamp will only be as bright as a Icecap (or roughly). Regular VHO ballasts (the real ANSI standard ones that most people can't buy), are brighter. It is possible to hook the VHOs in series and light them both.

How it works is that the 4x configuration converts this ballast in to a 600mA to 800mA lamp current ballast. Lamp current is the current flowing through the actual fluorescent tube. Normal T8s need about 235mA of lamp current. Normal VHOs need 1600mA of lamp current. Icecap delivers around 600mA to 800mA of lamp current to their lamps -- this overdrives T8s/T12s and underdrives VHOs. By underdriving VHOs, they can improve the lifetime of the lamps (from 6 months to more than a year).

The power drawn might be higher than the rated wattage (as stated on the box), but they tend to put safety factors around those numbers. So, if you wish (knowing the risks), you can use them to drive two VHOs at 65W to 80W a piece (I didn't measure the actual power yet). The limiting factor with electronic ballasts is the heat that they produce...higher heat...less power it can handle before blowing up. So, if you can keep the ballast cool (with a fan or in a well ventalated area) than you should be fine. These ballasts are designed to work in crawl spaces with no ventalation at 70 to 85 degrees Celcius (~190 F).

So, if you have an old set of VHO tubes, you can give them a try. Keep in mind that VHO tubes may only last 6 to 10 months...unlike Icecap ones. This is mainly due to the fact that our ballasts do not have the fancy starting mechanism -- even through the reduced lamp current may increase lifetime.

Another alternative (a better one) is to use Workhorse 7 or 6 ballasts.

Finding those elusive T8s ?

Grainger should carry these lamps and they have outlets all around the country. Last time I looked, they sold them for $2.75 USD. 6500K is commonly referred in the lighting community as daylight. Cool = 4000K and warm = 3200K.

There should be other places that carry them....mainly light bulb distributors. Companies that sell lamps from Phillips, GE or Sylvania should sell or be able to get them for you.

Local contractors should be able to tell you where they buy their lighting stuff.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.

[waj]

I do not think that 4x overdriving with this ballast with T12 lamps really overdrives any T12 lamp all that much. For some reason my crappy meter cannot measure lamp current directly but I can measure the current the ballast draws and the lamp voltage. By assuming ballast losses are constant I can then guess at the lamp current and wattage.

The more you overdrive a lamp, the more the voltage drops so even if you put 4x current into the lamp the lamp wattage does not increase proportionately. I think overdriving the lamp reduces the lamp resistance meaning that the wattage of the lamp is nowhere near 4x. There is only about a 7% increase in light output between 3x operation and 4x operation using T8 lamps. The difference is not caused by heat losses as the ballast draws only 8% more current. Lamp efficiency therefore drops very little.

There is a limit on how much a ballast like that will drive a lamp and I guess it is would be nowhere near VHO levels even if VHO lamps have higher than normal resistance. There would be no point in doing this with a VHO lamp. They cost too much for what you would get. Might as well use NO or HO lamps.

Overdriving NO lamps is very useful but it would be a lot better if we could quantify how much extra light we are actually getting. I can do this with T8 lamps because I can use the ballast factor of of a 4 x 32 watt ballast as a reference and can therefore calculate the ballast factor for T8 lamps by sampling the light increase when the a lamp is overdriven. Measuring T12s is more of a problem. Since the lamp cross section is different I cannot directly compare my T12 light samples with my T8 light samples. I need an accurate reference ballast to do this.

Wayne

[StirCrazy]

I did a test on overdriving light and recorded power consumption vs light output. you can see it on this thread.
http://www.canreef.com/ubb6/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000014

Steve

[Boomslang]

Hi

I read throught this thread and I see there is a lot of people that worry about the tubes exploding, from what I have read there is a vacuum in the tube, so when you break the tube it does not explode but implode (sp?). When the tube gets hot the chance of it exploding is just about zero, because there is very little air in the tube to expand from the heat.

[waj]

Really what I am looking for is the ballast factors for different lamp overdriving combinations. This is critical for sizing lighting systems and predicting light output from fixtures without having to actually measure them. I have them for 2' and 4' T8 lamps but not for anything else. This is something that seems to be completely ignored by most hobbiests or companies that cater to hobbiests. Icecap for instance won't publish this info. Perhaps if they had, people would have realized a lot sooner that they are not really a VHO ballast at all. They are HO ballasts. You can buy HO sign ballasts much like them from any electrical supplier.

One of the problems with your setup is that lamps of different cross sections or lengths cannot be accurately compared because the light is dispersed differently by different lamps. You also cannot compare lamps of different spectra as a lux meter as I am sure you know, takes it's sample mainly from the green area of a spectrum. Obviously, lamps with different spectral power distributions will give different results even if they have the same light output in watts.

What I did was to make a box that enclosed the center portion of the lamp and had a hole cut out for the light sensor. I measured 2' and 4' T8s and T12s in about a dozen configurations. My setup would be much more sensitive to lamp shape than yours but better for comparing lamps of different lengths. I measured the amperage draw on the ballast using the meter in series and the voltage across the lamps as well as a lux sample from each lamp. I then calculated the ballast factor for the T8 lamps using the 4 32 watt lamp configuration. Since I knew the ballast factor was .88 for this setup I used that as a reference to calculate the other ballast factors for other configurations. To make it work for T12 lamps I would have to use a ballst designed for T12 lamps with a known ballast factor to use as a reference. Mine are all pretty old magnetic ballasts and I don't trust them.

What do you do with the filament heating circuits of your rapid start ballast when you overdrive? Do you just leave the spares off or do you use them? It would seem better to not have any filiment heating circuits at all if you are driving a non standard lamp and that way you won't get the wrong filament current or preheat time. Is it better to use a program start ballast even if the preheat current is wrong or is it better to just use an instant start ballast?

Wayne

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by waj
Really what I am looking for is the ballast factors for different lamp overdriving combinations. This is critical for sizing lighting systems and predicting light output from fixtures without having to actually measure them. I have them for 2' and 4' T8 lamps but not for anything else. Icecap for instance won't publish this info. Perhaps if they had, people would have realized a lot sooner that they are not really a VHO ballast at all. They are HO ballasts. You can buy HO sign ballasts much like them from any electrical supplier.

my one Ballast is a 3 bulbs T8 electronic ballast, I will get you the power factor later, about the Icecap being a HO ballast, this is what I have stated sence befor the begining of this thread.. I actualy believe they are two HO ballasts in a commen box wich would account for the pickeyness in how you wire them.


One of the problems with your setup is that lamps of different cross sections or lengths cannot be accurately compared because the light is dispersed differently by different lamps. You also cannot compare lamps of different spectra as a lux meter as I am sure you know, takes it's sample mainly from the green area of a spectrum. Obviously, lamps with different spectral power distributions will give different results even if they have the same light output in watts.

Yup, this is why I stated in the test that this could only be used to compare the out put of the same bulbs and not different bulbs.. sence then I have bought a PAR meter and I am going to be testing different bulbs and ballasts as I can aford to.


Is it better to use a program start ballast even if the preheat current is wrong or is it better to just use an instant start ballast?

Wayne

Laitly I have moved to the WorkHorse line of ballasts by fulham, they are a instant start ballast and so far I have found several advantages over the Icecap. the main three are, 1 the Fulham is a "Type 1 Outdoors" ballast whare the IceCap is a "Type 2 Outdoors" and 2, the IceCap has a lot of electric generated noise that will interfere with X-10 componants whare the Fulham workhorse are a "Class A" noise rating. I curently have 3 of them and they don't screw around with my X-10 in anyway. and 3, they are a lot cheeper. a Ice cap 660 is about 300.00 + the wire harness + tax, the WH7 is about 55.00 + tax.

and just for side info the WH will run different types of light at the same time also. I know a couple guys that are mixing 55 watt PC's and NO actinics on the same ballast.

Steve

[waj]

I wrote a long reply but now I don't know what happened to it. I am not used to this type of format. Anyway at the risk of repeating myself I am interested in ballast factors and not power factors. The ballast factor is a term that is used to describe a multiplier that you use to figure out the actual lumens produced by a lamp. Your 3 x 32 watt ballast often has a 1.2 or 1.15 ballast factor. This means that whatever the lumen rating of your lamp, you just multiply the ballast factor by the lamp lumens to get the actual light output. There is no way of knowing the ballast factor when overdriving lamps unless you actually measure it. Without those factors it is very hard to know if it is worth it to do so.

I am quite impressed that you have a PAR meter you will have lots of fun with that, especially when comparing MH lamps to fluorescent lamps. I use PAR/lumen values calculated from lamp spectrums to convert lux measurements to PAR measurements but I think a PAR meter is preferable. It is hard to know if published lamp spectrums are accurate so the conversion factors are suspect. I think you will find in the end though that most fluorescent lamps of the same shape are pretty much the same per watt consumed regardless of the phosphor. In theory lamps with more red would produce more PAR per watt but in practice I don't think this varies all that much. It is the shape of the lamp and length of the lamp and the ballast that makes the most difference in PAR output as well as lumen output.

I also think that a 4 x 32 watt ballast is just about the same animal as a workhorse 5 and can run a pair of 55 watt lamps using two outputs per lamp. Those lamps will probably push the ballast to the maximum, the lamp wattage should then end up at around 54 watts if you get a high enough voltage across the lamp. I believe this would be even cheaper than a workhorse 5 as the 4 x 32 ballasts are only Can. $35 at my Home Depot. Can anyone confirm this?

Wayne

[qik64]

hi there,i hope someone can help me.i have a aqua one 620 tank and would like to know if i can overdrive the lights in it,they are 23.5 inch tubes.
brett.

[ToeCutter]

Originally posted by DerrickT
They are 17 bucks at home depot.

Advance Transformer Co.
High Frequency Electronic Ballast for (3) or (4) F32T8 Lamps
Model: #REL4P32SC35I
SKU: #261255
17.49



Thanks for the info. I picked up a pair today. I wired one up as a test, looking pretty good.

Now I just need to find the right bulbs. I gambled on GE "aquarium" bulbs which are actually 3050K - back to HD they go.

And maybe score some 18" reflectors... yeah...

[Chrismo]

I just hooked up 2 18" (15W each) T8 tubes in series to my 2 bulb 32W electronic ballast. The bulbs look really bright! Maybe I''ll try some SPS in my 10g nano?

I just noticed in small print on the ballast that it says it can ALSO run:
(2) 25w,
(2) 17w,
(1) 32w.
(1) 25w

How do I figure out how it's running the bulb? How does it determine what kind of bulb it should be outputting for? or does it just put out onw wattage, and the ballast factor changes a bit depending on what bulb is in there?

It looks pretty darn bright, so I'm happy, but I wonder if I'm running it at 2x or 4x or what?

Chris

[jjharrisx4]

I use it in my 15g tall canopy with 2x36w PC and 1x15w NO. It made the tank much brighter. I only am concerned about the adhesive. I think I'll be Ok because I sealed the canopy, it is open so not too humid, and the adhesive is damn strong stuff. It was 5.00 for a roll at home depot...looks like a roll of shiny duct tape.

[waj]

When you hook the lamps in series and overdrive 2x the ballast thinks it's running a 2 3' lamps. I believe the resistance of the lamp plays a part in the fact that the ballast changes it's output when you put in different lamps. Of course the ballast is designed to run high frequency T8 lamps so it is hard to predict exactly how much more light you are getting. One good indication is just to measure how much power the ballast draws. The light output somewhat proportional to the power consumption except the more you overdrive the less efficient the lamp becomes and the less light per watt you get.

Wayne

[blulegend]

Originally posted by jjharrisx4
I use it in my 15g tall canopy with 2x36w PC and 1x15w NO. It made the tank much brighter. I only am concerned about the adhesive. I think I'll be Ok because I sealed the canopy, it is open so not too humid, and the adhesive is damn strong stuff. It was 5.00 for a roll at home depot...looks like a roll of shiny duct tape.
So are you using the NO ballast to power your PCs AND NO?

[ronrca]

I currently have a 90G planted tank with 6 3ft fluorescent tubes in my diy tank hood. Of course, 6 32W tubes will not provide the lighting that the plants require (unless only low light plants). I was made aware of this method of overdriving T8 electronic ballast on this site some months ago and purchased 1-2 lamp 1-3 lamp and 2-4 lamp electronic ballasts. They have been doing great (plants included). Just on thursday I bought an additional 2 4 lamp ballast therefore overdriving 4 tubes with 4 lamp ballasts, 1 with a 2 lamp ballast and 1 with a 3 lamp ballast. When I open the hood, I have to watch not to look into the lights because they are very very bright.

I would really like to thank whoever thought of this idea because if I would of had to buy a retrofit VHO kit, I would of had to spend around $400+. By using this method, it costed me $150 and Im calculating around 4W/G (maybe closer to 5W/G). Thank you!

5w/g may sound high but my tank is quite tall, at least 24" and Im curious to see if I can start growing some 'carpet' plants now that I just install the 2 ballasts. I think this is a great cost saver and great diy project.

I have not been able to read all the posts in this topic but I wanted to share my experience and gratidute.

[waj]

My main interest is in planted tanks also. I have a 90 gallon tank with 6 32 watt lamps overdriven by a 1.2 ballast factor. This is enough light to grow carpet plants on the bottom of a 90 gallon tank. The light level you have is much greater than this. The ballast factor when overdriveing 4x is over 2.0. Just 4 4' 32 watt lamps overdriven 4x would be as much light as anyone would ever need for a planted tank. Even 4 lamps overdriven 3x would be plenty for all but the most light demanding plants.

The person that thought of this has my gratitude as well. It has put a whole new light so to speak on DIY lighting. I acn now DIY an excellent lighting system that is just as good as any PC system for a fraction of the cost. I can also vary my lighting according to my needs just by rewiring the ballasts and I can use the same ballast for every application.

Wayne

[ByTor]

for the T8 bulbs in actinic and daylight Triton & zoo-med makes them from 18"to 48"....
I also found these bulbs (http://www.voltarc.com/AQUA-A.htm)

Someone posted about the Voltarc bulbs a few months ago..Thanx!

Voltarc also has some really nifty end caps....

[ronrca]

Thank you waj for your insight. Since I only have increased light levels on thurday, it will take awhile to see how the carpets will preform. Before, Hemianthus micranthemoides (I think thats what it is or maybe Micranthemum umbrosum) would not grow out like a carpet plant should but up. Im hoping that will change though now.

One thing Im kicking myself now for is when I built the hood, I did not build it to accomodate 4' fixtures therefore Im only using 3' lamps. You would not believe it but my hood is about 1" to small to fit 4' lamps. Maybe if I get ambitious, I'll re-design and re-build the hood to fit 4' lamps and also better air movement thru the hood. Maybe I dont have though.

You can see my pics at http://photos.yahoo.com/ronr_ca

Please comment on what I can do to improve the aquascaping. Thanks!

[ToeCutter]

Originally posted by ronrca
You would not believe it but my hood is about 1" to small to fit 4' lamps.

They make space-saver bulbs that are about 1 1/2" shy of 4' or so, just for that circumstance.

[DerrickT]

For all of you that are overdriving NO, do you see the ripple effects similar to those of MH? If so, can you post pics. I would like to see it very much.

[DerrickT]

Originally posted by Boomslang
Hi

I read throught this thread and I see there is a lot of people that worry about the tubes exploding, from what I have read there is a vacuum in the tube, so when you break the tube it does not explode but implode (sp?). When the tube gets hot the chance of it exploding is just about zero, because there is very little air in the tube to expand from the heat.

Oh, for safety can one of those tube sleeves be used on overdriven bulbs? Can they withstand the heat?

[mswt5]

No ripples derrick....sorry

metal halides make ripples because the light is coming from just that one sourse.....when you use flourescents you have the light spread out down the length of the entire bulb.....soo.....no matter how bright you get them you will never get the ripple effect.....i know its kinda a bummer.....as far as the plastic protectors they would probably make the bulbs even hotter becuase it will keep air from circulating around the bulb....they do get fairly hot.....i got a little desktop fan and pointed it on them.....they stay cool now

[DerrickT]

Didn't someone from this thread said they get the effects by covering one half of the overdriven bulb with reflective taping? My LFS somehow used enough PC's to get some effects. Oh well =(. As long as the corals grow.

[ToeCutter]

Just wanted to say I'm running OVRNO (OVDNO?) over my nano now, and I'm happy with the results. About $60, and my tank is well lit.

[marm64]

Hi thanks for all the great info I am in the process of starting up a reef tank and was wondering if I can just replace VHO lights with overdriven light? and also are people only overdriving the white bulbs or are you overdriving the Blue Actininc bulbs also.

Thanks for any info. These boards have great info.

[Alexis]

Will the f4x32 ballast fire 36watt power compacts? I understand that it may not be as bright, but will it light at all?

THanks

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Overdriving actinics and VHOs.

Yes...I have been overdriving actinics for about 10 months now. They work fine.

As for replacing VHOs with overdriven, you can do that...but it depends. If you want to overdrive, then you'll need a new ballast (or something less power than a VHO ballast). It is possible to over drive a NO with a VHO ballast, I would use the T12 tubes only. T8 tubes are a little scary...since you'll be driving 6 to 7 times more lamp current than it is intended.

Driving a 36W PC with a 4x32W.

Well...it depends which 36W PC you have. If it is a osram/philips/german one...then 1x will light it normally (i.e. like it should...at full intensity). If it is a Panasonic/Japanese type, then it will require a 2x configuration. So, if you use the 4x configuration...I think it should overdrive them a bit. How much...I really don't know since I haven't tried. If you want to use a proper ballast to drive the PCs, I would suggest a Fulham Workhorse ballast (check www.fullham.com for dealers near you). The are design to drive an array of lamps. In your situation, a WH5 should be able to drive either two 36W PCs. If you want to drive four, then WH7. If you want to drive one, then a WH3 should work. These WH ballasts are the same ballasts used in AHsupply kits.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.

[DerrickT]

Oh, I forgot to mention I got my bulbs at my local graingers (www.grainger.com). The part number is 3JJ79. It is a 6500K 48" T8 bulb. This is the highest spectrum for T8's they had. For T12, they have a 7500K, but I just got the T8's instead. They were only around 2 US dollars each. In order to buy from Graingers, you have to own a business. I just simply asked another customer to buy the bulbs for me.

2 dollars..not bad:)

[GROSSR]

I checked your catalog # and they are 239.xx for 36 bulbs. How do you figure $2.00 each.

Is this the correct part #?

thanks

[DerrickT]

Gross,

You can get them cheaper and individually buying locally. I have no idea why it's priced that way on the website. But yes, they were around 2 dollars (2.39?). I picked up six. Call your local grainger to make sure.

[jonboy]

I stopped by Graingers today.
They have a sale on the bulbs from now to Oct. 31st
Part no. 3JJ79
Reg. price 6.65
sale price 3.49
This is the ge bulb with a 6500 color temp.

I couldn't find the bulbs anywhere else. So I have paid the
6.65 in the past. I bought a case.:p

I won't have to buy any more for quite some time.
I wish that they would carry the Iwaski MH bulbs also.

Jonboy

[marm64]

I have read through this and have been wondering about the people that have been running these what are the results? are you just running the overdriven lights or do you feel that this is not enough light.

[afss]

I have 2 4 foot overdriven 6500 and 2 normal output actinics. I have sps, lps, and softies in a 90 gallon tank. All seem to be doing well, and all are growing. The sps is only about 8 inches under the water, about 10 inches from the bulbs. I have seen one piece that has grown about 3/4" in the last 4 months or so. I know they will grow faster with halides etc, but i am still impressed with the growth.
Scott

[Ddddrgnfly]

Hey Reef or Anyone Else That Can Answer This One For Me,
In no way am I new to reefin(6 yrs) but I have always run M/H's and PC's.I am very interested in this though and am stting up a 55 for my son.I have a good friend that manages a lamp supply and distribution Whse here locally.He has told me that he can get me whatever I want at cost for this type setup.My question is though,like I said,never messed with NO or VHO,can anyone give me the brand and part #'s of some of the daylight,50/50's and Actinics out there.If he doesn't have them then he said he can crossreference the PN's of any bulb out there. This should prove to be very interesting.

Thanx
Rog

[kingMOB]

reefburnaby, has been... hummm... a year now since you started with the project (and I apreciate you a lot for it =), I saw that in the beginning you measured the light intensity of your system...

You know that, one of the things that most concern people who use fluorescents is the useful lifetime of this kind of lighting to our systems, everybody advice to change the bulbs after 6 months when the output drops 20-30%.

So, I'm curious to know if you continued with the measurements of the light intensity along this year, this kind of data could be useful to people who are using the overdrived lighting to know when change the bulbs.

[GROSSR]

Yes, I too am interested after a year.

Please let us know.

[ToeCutter]

I'm interested too... not only in the light intensity, but the actual spectrum of light put out by the bulbs... I had a rumor that overdriving NO can have a negative impact on the color temperature.

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Sorry for the delay...I seem to have missed the last couple of postings.

Well, it has been around a year since my lamps have been running. My current setup is two 6500K overdriven by 2x and one VHO actinic (driven by overdriven 4x). Power consumption is around 160W.

In terms of light output, the lights are producing about 100-120 uE/(m^2*s) of PAR at the bottom of the tank. Around the middle of the tank, the lights have a PAR of 180-200 uE/(m^2*s). These measurements were performed in the tank (i.e. with waterproof PAR sensor) and they were made on lamps that are around 6 months old.

I have changed many thinks in my system to improve the performance of the lamps. I have switched from 4x to 2x overdrive on the T8s. The 4x didn't produce more PAR light than the 2x and it produced more heat. The lamps efficiency decreases (along with spectrum) as the heat increases. Although we are pumping more power in the lamp, the lamp's decreased efficiency negates the extra power.

I am using URI actinics for my lighting. It is working really well and I have used them for 6 months. To drive them, I just use the 4x configuration. I like these more than the T8 actinics and they cost about the same. In fact, I was burning T8 actinics at a very fast rate -- they only last about 3 months. The actinics still come one, but they don't have much actinic power (spectrum shift). Basically, I built a single lamp, low cost, Icecap.

As for my SPS experiment...still going. Not growing very fast, but it does grow at a good rate. But...I don't think I will try blue tip acros for a long time...at least not in a 90 with overdriven T8s.

As for replacement schedule, I replace them at 6 months. They don't need to be replace at that time, but I do it anyway. Judging by the condition of the lamps, I would say they would work quite well at 12 months at 2x overdrive. The VHO actinic still looks good at 6 months - so I will probably replace in another 6 months.

F32T8 ballasts are pretty hard to come by - at least in common hardware stores. So, a popular alternative is the workhorse ballast from Fulham. These are capable of driving an assortment of lamps and they have a pretty good waranty.

So, I have been pretty happy with my lamps for the past year.

- Victor.

[GROSSR]

Thanks for the response. I am surprised you used a URI Actinic. I thought the idea was to use cheap bulbs and get the same amount of light as the more expensive bulbs.

I was about to rig up 4 - 4x bulbs. I will modify and go to 2x.


Would you suggest 1 ballast running 2 bulbs or 1 ballast running 1 bulb 2x?

I will be running 3 philips 6500k T8 bulbs and a Coralife T8 actinic.

[marm64]

Originally posted by reefburnaby

Well, it has been around a year since my lamps have been running. My current setup is two 6500K overdriven by 2x and one VHO actinic (driven by overdriven 4x). Power consumption is around 160W.


I was wondering what type of Actinic you are using? is it a 50/50 blue or what. How much better is it to overdrive the actinic by 4x as opposed to 2x ?

Thanks

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

I was using Zoomed actinic T8 bulbs. The colour was not good with these bulbs from the start when they were overdriven. I tried 2x and 4x...and they just didn't shine. URI, on the other hand, was quite good.

My local supplier of Zoomed sells them for the same price as my local supplier of URI - so it worked out to be the same. I will try the good old T12 03s next year and see how well those last. I am sure they will do better than the zoomeds. For T12s, the 4x overdrive should match the Icecaps.

Quite frankly, the 4x overdrive was not good in terms of performance and cost. With less tube life, more heat and no measureable improvement in light intensity, the 4x wasn't very good in the long term. In the short term (i.e. when the bulbs are still cool), the light intensity is absolutely insane.

As for how many ballasts per bulb, I went with one bulb per ballast. There is a slight improvement (in light intensity) with one bulb per ballast.

- Victor.

[H20ENG]

Victor,
A thousand times thank you for all the info youve shared!
Are the ballasts the same ones you started with? any problems with themburning out, etc?
Your bulbs are all 4', right? So for running 18" bulbs with the 32w ballasts, (given you swapped from 4x to 2x) sounds like we should just use one lead per bulb, running them 2x.
I was curious about the heat / efficiency with 2x vs. 3-4x. Thanks for the input.
I put 2- 32w leads to a 9w pc- WOW! Don't know that I'd run it there though:)
Chris

[H.I.D. KEVIN]

Well, I was just about to pick up my order at my local electrical store, and then I decided to finish the last couple of pages of posts on this subject....so let me get this straight, Victor, you are no longer using the 4x f32 t8 ballast to light up one t8 bulb??!! I've just finished this 14 page thread and I am, to say the least, confused! But, if this experiment has no good ending, then please make it real clear for me.....Thanks.........H.I.D....KEVIN......OVER.....

[marm64]

Originally posted by reefburnaby

I am using URI actinics for my lighting. It is working really well and I have used them for 6 months. To drive them, I just use the 4x configuration. I like these more than the T8 actinics and they cost about the same. In fact, I was burning T8 actinics at a very fast rate -- they only last about 3 months. The actinics still come one, but they don't have much actinic power (spectrum shift). Basically, I built a single lamp, low cost, Icecap.

- Victor.
I take it that you are using the URI actinics VHO and are overdriving them at the 4x, there is no trouble overdriving a T12 on the electronic balast made for T8? Whic of the URI do you think work best with the overdriven NO? the R, White ,or Aquasun?

Do you think that this ends ub being a good light source? I am going to be setting up my new tank and am thinking of using this setup for my 75.
Thanks

[reefjunkie3]

Just tagging along......:wavehand:

[reefburnaby]

H2Ogen,

Yes, I still have the same ballast that I have had from the start. They are holding up and I expect them to run for more than 5 years. The temperature from the ballast is warm to touch.

Yupe, I am still using 4 footers and I would suggest the 2x configuration unless you are using T5s or PCs (which can operate better with high temperatures) or you have good cooling.


HID Kevin,

I am no longer using 4x on my T8s since they just burn extra power, produce extra heat, shift the spectrum and generate approximately the same amount of light as the 2xs. Feel free to use 4x, but I have found that 2x is better than a 4x. I only found this out when I bought a PAR meter and started measuring my tank. My T8 actinics were not doing well in overdrive, so I switch to VHOs. So, the 2x overdrive and the switch to VHOs were the biggest changes over the last year. Otherwise, I am still a avid promoter of this technology.

I am still using T8s and I think I will use them for a long time. At least I will continue to use them until 6500K T5s become available in reasonable quantities. I have no plans to go to HID any time soon.

So, is that clear enough ?

Marm64,

Yupe, I am using the URI actinics with 4x configuration. Looking at the tube ends, the tubes look pretty good and show no blackening in the last 6 months. I think VHOs are more robust when they are operating high temperatures, so most VHOs will work well in the 4x configuration. Keep in mind that a 4x will be close to the Icecap (minus the soft start and dimming). Since actinics fair worse than 10000K in regular VHO conditions, the Aquasun and white will do better.

I still think that 6500K T8s will work just fine for 6500K lighting, but the T8 actinics are not good for overdrive.

- Victor.

[H.I.D. KEVIN]

............Thanks Victor, and if you could give me one more question asking session........first, the F32T8x4 ballast is still the same electronic ballast for all applications. I think I'm clear on that. But, while I'm also clear on the T8 xonly 2 bulbs per ballast vs. one bulb per ballast, I'm not clear on the VHO stuff. I'm assuming that the VHO is a T12, and the URI is a name brand of a type of VHO bulb? If so then, I will need 1 VHO white or aquason bulb, made by URI, per ballast x4 set up??!! Or is URI some other type of something I haven't caught on to yet?!!!!!!! And, I know that Actinic bulbs of some sort are the reason for this question! Swear, I went to college and all, but I'm not sure. And, I should be sure before I dive in the deep end!..........H.I.D....KEVIN.....OVER.....................

[jjkahler]

great ideas here!!! currently working on my od system now (lucky me I buy light/ballasts all the time for my company, so REALLY cheap prices on normal items :)).

Anyway, I was playing with the outputs of the ballast to actually see how much brighter the lights would get with each overdrive. While I was doing this, I thought "what if the each overdrive on the lights where on a timer too?" This would let each overdrive (1x,2x,3x, and 4x) come on at diff times of the day (thus mimicking high noon time). It might be more work than its worth, but really neat idea.

[H20ENG]

jjkahler,
I did the test with each lead, too. neat huh! Try it with a 9w pc!!!WOW. Wore goggles for that one :)
Your timers would have to run relays to feed the 600v leads through. May be more cost effective to run each ballast on different timers.

PS: What kind of plant do you run, chief?
Chris

[H.I.D. KEVIN]

questions...........

[GROSSR]

I too am confused like HID.

I don't understand the URI VHO part. What are you using to drive the URI, another ballast? Certainly not a VHO (ICECAP) ballast?

[jjkahler]

H2OENG, plant?

GROSSR, the VHO URI is being driven by a NO ballast-od 4x

[H.I.D. KEVIN]

...from another thread I was able to figure out that URI is a manufacture of the VHO type tubes. I think!! And, I do believe, after reading Victors recent posts several times, that he is using the same F32 T8x4 type electronic ballast to power these VHO tubes to a wattage near the Icecap. And, the original T8 tubes of the 6500k type daylight tubes are being overdriven by only 2 times vs. the original 4 times overdriving that Victor started with a year ago or so. Or course, I could be wrong!! I hope that Victor will post soon to completely clear this up, yet I think it's rather clear now. .....H.I.D....KEVIN......OVER..........

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Sorry for the delay and confusion.

URI is a bulb manufacturer.

http://www.lampsnow.com/superactinicr2.html

Since T8 actinics were not working well, I switched to VHOs. I just swaped the 4x overdrive T8 bulb with the VHOs. Hence, I drove 4x overdrive in to the VHOs.

So how does that work ? Well, the F32T8X4 ballast is designed to pump out ~200mA of lamp current in to each bulb. By jamming 4x 200mA in to a single lamp, we pump 800mA in to the VHOs. Since most VHOs take 1.6A of lamp current, 800mA is about 50% of the designed lamped current. Icecap does something similar (i.e. a HO ballast driving a VHO lamp). HOs in the T12 format consume approximately 800mA of lamp current.

Confusing ? I guess it is. An electronic ballast is quite versatile since its main objective is to regulate the lamp current. The constant lamp current is what allows a single ballast to drive a variety of lamps - from PCs to VHOs. Each bulb type needs a specific lamp current to operate at a certain brightness. For example, F40T12s (4 foot T12s) need about 430mA of lamp current. On the other hand, F32T8 (4 foot T8s) need about ~230mA. So, a ballast that was design to drive a single T8 would drive a 4 foot T12 at 50% brightness. By overdriving, you can power the T12 to full or greater brightness. So, what about voltage across the lamp ? Well, the ballast takes care of that since it can operate in a wide range of voltages. Of course, there are limits to the voltage range and it limits the ballast's ability to overdrive certain lamps. T8s that are less or equal to four feet usually draw around ~200mA and T12s that are less or equal to four feet usually draw around ~400mA. HOs usually draw double the base bulbs and VHOs usually draw 3x to 4x the base bulbs -- hence a T12 VHO draws 1.6A.

Hopefully that clears some of the confusion. Feel free to ask more questions.

- Victor.

[marm64]

If you can only overdriving the VHO at 800mA and they should have about 1.6 A are you then only able to get about 50% of the light out of the VHO? Oh the web site you posted they only give about 110 w so this would be more like 1A as opposed to 1.6 A or am I missing something here?

What size tank do you have and what are the bulbs you are using and how much are you overdriving them?

Thanks for all the great info

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Fluorescent lamps are design to operate at its top efficency near room temperature. Anything outside of that range (either lower or higher), the efficiency and light output will drop.

VHOs run hot when 110W is applied to the lamps. In turn, the light efficiency drops. So, if we were able to apply 85W to the VHO, the tube will not get as hot and it will be able to increase its efficiency. Whether the gained efficiency is large enough to compensate for the drop in applied power is questionable. However, if the light output only drops by 15% and you are consuming 70% of the 110W, then the advantages are clear. Use of the electronic ballast also provides slightly higher light output for the same applied lamp power. This is the same ideas that Icecap has been applying to their products. The bonus feature is that VHOs with reduced applied power seem to last longer.

I have not had a chance to measure a full 110W actinic vs my VHO. Based on my measurements, the actinics produce almost the same amount of PAR as my 6500K. My current setup was not intended to bring the maximum amount of power from the actinics. They were just installed to replace my dismal T8 actinics.

My tank is a 90 Gallon tank - 24" deep, 18" wide and 48" long. The sand bed is about 6 inches deep. As you can see, this tank is rather difficult to light was conventional fluorescent lighting.

I hope that helps.

- Victor.

[Reefer2]

Victor,

Thanks again for this GREAT solution. I've been using it for about 3 months and have been very happy with the results. I will try the 2x modification as this sounds like a better long term plan.

For all those looking for reflectors: www.reflect-a-light.com has a AWESOME reflector kit for this application. I bought a 3 light kit (KSM4/SA/4) for under $20 delivered.

Question: Does the VHO bulb use the same bi-pin connector as the T8/T12 ? Any good sources for the URI bulbs.

[traveller7]

VHO's use the same pins.

NorthCoastMarines seems to have one or two of the URI bulb sizes on sale every Month.

Thanks for the reflector link.

[GROSSR]

Reefer2 :

Any thoughts on how one could fit 4 bulbs with that reflector? What is the width of your reflector? Could you add a single bulb reflector in a 48x18 inch canopy?

Where is the pricing on their web site?

As far as URI, I found ordering from ThatFishPlace does not charge extra for bulbs. I've order from others and been charge upto 8.00 for a box for the bulb.

thanks

[Reefer2]

GROSSR:

I'm not home so I can't measure it now, but I believe it's 12" wide. You should be able to add a single bulb reflector on the side of this one, depending on how your canopy is setup. The kit does come with mounting HW and 6 nice bi-pin connectors. I used 1/2" plywood to secure it to my canopy.

Pricing is not listed. I called the distributor directly. I'm not certain that they'll sell to the public. The salesman asked me for a company name, but did not require a TIN. I ordered 3 reflector kits at $14 ea and the S&H was under $9.

Thanks for the bulb info.

[GROSSR]

I paid $10.60 for 6 bi-pin connectors.

My wife owns an antique shop, I could say it is for the fixtures in her store.

Should not be a problem.

thanks

[ScottT]

Okay, I've finally tried this after building a new hood for my 25 tall. I have a GE electronic ballast that drives 2 F40T12 lamps (2 4', 40W bulbs)... the ballast is from HD and the model number is B240R120RH or sku # '43168 80821'.

I want to run 2 24" 20W bulbs in series @ 2 times OD. I can't seem to get the wiring right... already burnt up one ballast! I used the diagram supplied by Canadian Man on the 8th page into this thread... basically, the 2 red and 2 blues wires are tied together and go to one endcap... also taking a jumper wire and jumping the two sides of the endcap. Then taking the 2 yellow wires, tying them together, and then to one side of another endcap... also taking a jumper and jumping the two sides of the endcap together...

Then, the other two endcaps are jumpered together... with small jumpers also connecting both sides of those endcaps together... I've got the ballast wired into a 3-wire plug with the ground connected to the ballast and the ballast simply mounted to the wooden hood...

Why isn't this hookup working?

Scott

[reefburnaby]

ScottT,

I think the problem is that you are using a schematic that was intended for instant start ballast on a rapid start ballast. Using a rapid start ballast to overdrive is something that I have not done before, but Stircrazy has tried it before.

In his setup, he wires each blue wire to each red wire. Each blue/red pair is connect to one of bi-pins on the tube #1. The yellow wires are not shorted together...they are connect to each of the pins on tube #2. Between tube#1 and Tube #2, each of the pins (not shorted together) are connected together.

In any case, this is not the recommended solution since I haven't tried it before and I believe these types of ballasts are quite expensive. Also, these types of ballasts are easier to screw up by wiring mistakes - just like the Icecap. The other ballast, instant start type, is easier to work with. Your best bet is to use Fulham ballasts to do this. Fulham will drive all sorts of bulbs, including F20T12s and it is a instant start ballast. The instant start ballasts use the same schematic as shown by Canadian Man. If you need more help, just post another message.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.

[ScottT]

Victor,

This is a "2 Lamp Rapid Start Triad Electronic Ballast made by Magnatek". I'm somewhat confused by your reply because in the 1st paragraph you say 'instant start or rapid start... you have not done before' - then in the 3rd paragraph you say 'instant start are easier to work with... and use the schematic as shown by Canadian Man'...?

This ballast was ~$24, not cheap, but not too expensive. This is my second ballast (as I said, the first one burnt up - actually smoked!). When I first wired it up, I did exactly as you said.... because that made sense and matched (basically) to the wiring diagram on the ballast.... when that didn't work, I tried Canadian Man's wiring diagram (except I didn't short the pins between tube #1 and Tube #2.... just wired them as if it was one long 4' tube) and that fried the ballast. When I got the new ballast, I used his diagram WITH the short between #1 and #2 tubes and the bulbs wouldn't light... I unpluged the ballast before it fried (I hope!).

So, this is why I am so confused... the only difference I can see is that my ballast is designed for 2 bulbs and most all the others talked about in this thread are for 4 bulbs. Let me try to describe exactly how this ballast says to wire it up and you can tell me what you would do...

As per the ballast - for wiring 2 4' T12 bulbs... ballast has the following 8 wires: 2 blue, 2 red, 2 yellow, 1 black, 1 white

1 red wire to each pin on end #1 of bulb #1,
1 yellow wire to one pin on end #2 of bulb #1 - shorted with other pin of end #2 on bulb #1,

duplicate wiring for bulb #2 except using the blue wires.

White wire to line (wide blade of recepticle), and black wire to other blade - ground of power cord is connected to ballast body.

I'd really like to make this work with this ballast - don't really want to have to buy another one... unless I can find it at Home Depot... :)

HD does carry a wider variety of electronic T8 ballasts, but the bulbs are more difficult to find... I guess I could use a T8 ballast to drive these... right? From this thread, it seems that I would have to 2 x OD a T12 bulb with a T8 ballast just to effectively achieve normal output on the T12... right?

Thx, I look forward to your response! Scott

[2hi4u2c]

Hey ScottT,
I have been running 2 24" T12 bulbs in series on a (4) F32T8 ballast for about 1.5 months... Works great. I don't know the out put,(Hmmm, todays project???) but it is darn bright!
Alan

[H20ENG]

2hi4u2c,
Could you post a diagram of your wiring to "enlighten" us?

[ScottT]

Yes, please enlighten us... that will be my fallback plan if I can't get this to work.

Also, what is the ballast, is it the one mentioned here so much? If not, where did you get it, and what did it cost?

Thx!
Scott

[ScottT]

I reread your post a couple more times and finally caught what you said about me trying to use "an instant start wiring diagram on a rapid start ballast"! I kept reading the "on" as "or" and that was what was confusing!

I'm still totally baffled because the wiring setup you described is the way I originally had the wiring connected and it did not work!

Now I've picked up another ballast and want to give that one a try... unfortunately it is also a rapid start ballast, but it is designed to run 4 32W T8 bulbs... I think this one is fairly similar to the one others are using except that it is 'rapid' start instead of 'instant' start.

So, this ballast has 2 red, 2 blue, 2 yellow, and black and white. Again, I want to run 2 24" T12 bulbs in series with this ballast... if I'm thinking right, this will really only be driving the T12 bulbs 2 times since the ballast is designed for T8 bulbs...

So, how do I wire it?

Option #1:
Tie all blue and red wires together and then into end A of bulb #1 - shorting pins together. Tie yellow wires together and into end A of bulb #2 - shorting pins together. Connect the pins of the B ends of the bulbs together WITHOUT shorting across the pins.

Option #2:
Same as option #1 except DO SHORT across all pins on the "B" ends of the 2 bulbs.

Option #3:
Tie one blue to one red and connect to one pin on end "A" of bulb #1. Tie other blue and red and connect to the other pin on end "A" of bulb #1. Connect each yellow wire to one pin on end "A" of bulb #2. Connect one pin on end "B" of bulb #1 to one pin on end "B" of bulb #2... duplicate for other pin (effectively no shorting of pins on ANY end of bulbs).

2hi4u2c
is your ballast rapid start or instant start? Did you tie all blues and reds together or make blue/red pairs and tie one to each pin? How did you connect the 2 bulbs together... one pin to one pin - no shorting, or all 4 pins together?

Thx!
Scott

[ScottT]

Update (it's been so long since I posted :) )

Okay, the 4x32 T8 ballast is NOT rapid start, it is INSTANT start. So, this means I can simply wire all blue and red wires together and connect them to BOTH pins on one bulb... do the same with the yellows...

So, for the connection between the 2 bulbs (since I want to run 2 24" bulbs in series), I'm still confused.... I guess it's because I don't fully understand how these bulbs work, but...

Here's the question:
Is there actually a difference between connecting the pins from one bulb to the other (without shorting the pins together) versus doing the same thing but shorting the pins together? I find it difficult to accept why they'd need to be shorted together and then connected from one bulb to the other?

I know Canadian Man shorted them in his "2-bulb in series" wiring diagram on page 8 of this thread, but ReefDragon didn't in his wiring explanation on page 2... I guess both options work, but I'm not sure I'm comparing apples to apples (or ballasts to ballasts)..

If anyone can shed some light on this I'd appreciate it!
Scott

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by reefburnaby
ScottT,

I think the problem is that you are using a schematic that was intended for instant start ballast on a rapid start ballast. Using a rapid start ballast to overdrive is something that I have not done before, but Stircrazy has tried it before.

In his setup, he wires each blue wire to each red wire. Each blue/red pair is connect to one of bi-pins on the tube #1. The yellow wires are not shorted together...they are connect to each of the pins on tube #2. Between tube#1 and Tube #2, each of the pins (not shorted together) are connected together.

In any case, this is not the recommended solution since I haven't tried it before and I believe these types of ballasts are quite expensive. Also, these types of ballasts are easier to screw up by wiring mistakes - just like the Icecap. The other ballast, instant start type, is easier to work with. Your best bet is to use Fulham ballasts to do this. Fulham will drive all sorts of bulbs, including F20T12s and it is a instant start ballast. The instant start ballasts use the same schematic as shown by Canadian Man. If you need more help, just post another message.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.

Victor, I stoped following this thread about 6 pages ago for two reasons, the first is that information is getting all screwed up as this thread is to long with to many different ideas.. take for example what you just quoted me as doing.. I have done it both ways on both types of ballasts.. and no problems.

I have shorted all wires togeather and also I have run them seperatly.. both ways worked.. the problem I can see hapening with others is that series is not the best way to run things for a normal ballast as you realy must make sure the ballast you are buying is capable of handling it..

the second reason I stopped following this thread is throught testing I have determaned that by overdriving you can not come close to the power you will get out of VHO or PC :eek2: how dare I say that in this holy thread of overdriving ...
but numbers don't lie.. a 4X overdriven T12 actinic has aproximatly 1/10 of the PAR of a VHO being run at full power (not IceCap power :rolleyes: ) and the pricce of actinic bulbs is not much cheeper than just buying a URI VHO (about 4.00 cheeper for a T8 actinic than a VHO)

and a Overdriven 36" daylight bulb is about 1/5th that of a 96 watt 6500K PC and about 1/4 that of a 96 watt 10000K PC. the other thing to concider is that the overdriven bulb has to be changed more often that either of the other two I have mentiond.

I used to say you don't need MH either but after witnessing the increase in growth by adding one 175 watt MH to my tank I will no longer say that either.. but I do not say that you only need MH, in my opinion the best system uses VHO for actinic, PC for Daylight and MH for the simulation of the hot afternoon sun.

there were some threads going around saying that a 96 watt PC compares to a 175 watt MH.. this is 1/2 truths.. at 3" they are so close it isn't funny but then add watter and a more realistic distance (In my opinion a measurment at 3" is a total waist of time and not usefull for any realistic data at all) I do all my measurments at 12" and only the first 5" are air.

at this Depth the PChas 1/2 the PAR as the 175 watt MH and the spread gets worse as you get deeper.. so the intensity of a MH cannot be betten for penatration into your tank.

there are Valid uses for overdriving.. as in 1, you all ready have the set up and can't aford to buy new stuff for a while, 2 you only want a little more light for your mushrooms, and 3 you are board and want something to do (the latter was my case ;) )

If you look at what I spent on overdriving and testing different methods of overdriving and my PAR sensor and multimeter I could have bought a kick *** light system a long time ago :rolleyes:

so as long as you are having fun all the power to you but if you think you are going to find the ultimat lighting system ... you better look again.. you can slightly improve on a NO system but you will not make it better than a VHO or PC system.

JMHO

Steve

[reefburnaby]

Hi Steve,

Well...I started this thread. And I intend to stay long as long as people are still relatively friendly and need help.

It wasn't that long ago when Icecap introduce there "revolutionary" ballast that changed the face of reefing as we know it. They made a little ballast that could push NO to levels that are similar to VHOs. Of course, the catch was the price...at $200 - $300 CAD a pop, this is one expensive ballast.

So, the whole goal was to emulate that ballast with a industrial version that cost less (1/4 to 1/8th the LFS cost). I took the time to figure how it works and why it works. So, that's the whole idea. It wasn't intended to replace MH or HQI. The goal is basically...DIY Icecap...as the title says.

As for your comments regarding overdriving being unable to compete with PC and VHOs...notice you use the word T12. This thread is about T8s and T12s are a bit different. :) To overdrive a T12 to similar levels, you'll need a WH and quite a different arrangement. You are basically taking a T8 4x overdrive configuration and blindly replacing it with a T12 lamp. Sorry...they don't work quite like that. As for the PCs...I am not even sure what your current configuration is for those lamps. I am not even sure if you are slightly overdriving them since you seemed to mention in past messages that you are using a slightly different wiring configuration than what fulham is using. And yes... I have overdriven PCs a long time ago...accidently.

From past messages, your 175W lighting was pretty close to my ~150W overdrive. Also, keep in mind that I am assuming that you don't need actinics for your 175W lighting. From what I recall, 175W are only really useful for the first 2 feet of coverage. Since my tank is 4 feet...we'll need two of 175W. We are now up to 350W and I am also assuming we are using a state of the art electronic ballast for the MH. 350W vs 150W...if their PAR numbers are close...it is really not a good day for MH.

PC...again can we consider that actinics are not required ? Again...if we do...this requires more result skewing. So, it really is quite tricky to compare these lighting systems. BTW, PC are more efficent than T8s...so they should be better.

Keep in mind that not everybody needs killer lighting since not everybody keeps light loving corals like SPS. So, two or three tubes of lighting is all that is really required for softies and LPS. In some instances, too much lighting is a bad thing.

ScottT,

As for forming a the connection between the two 2 footers, both methods will work. The two pins are seperated because they are used for rapid start applications (its kind of like a little heating fillament inside the tube...each pin connects one side of the fillament). In instant start applications, both pins are shorted together since the heating fillament is not used. In instant start, a high voltage is presented between the ends of the tube. The high voltage causes an arc between the two tube ends and it ignites the mercury vapour. The electrical connection between the two 2 foot tubes forms the electrical connection such that the high voltage arc is form between the two tubes (50% in one, and 50% in the other). So to short or not to short ? Electrically, they are so similar that their differences are insignificant :) Slight advange to shorting though....

I think I am getting lazy (or tired), but I hope that explaination is clearer that the previous one. I think I am going to need to start a web page just to hold all of the FAQs in one section.

- Victor.

[ScottT]

Victor, thanks for the lesson on flouresent bulbs! It does make more sense now and I'm happy to say that the 4x32 T8 ballast fired straight away!... I'm actually replacing the stock lighting (18" T8) with 2 2-times OD 24" T12... since I don't have the actinic bulb yet I'm using one 24" T12 Daylight and the 18" T8 Coral life 50/50 bulb from my original lightstrip... Thx again for all your help!

I'm still trying to figure out if I'd be better off with the URI Super Actinic NO or VHO bulb? It should be roughly driven 2 times...

Steve, thank you too for all the help - and the follow up with your conclusions.

Happy Lighting!
Scott

[jjkahler]

reefburnaby, just a side note, I know that u where having trouble with T-8 actinic bulbs. Just tried the coralife actinic 03, and man that t-8 tube SUCKS @#%!!! purchased a MARINE-GLO by ?. It is a t-8 bulb and seems to have good blue color, just fyi.

[ScottT]

Can the workhorse line drive both a VHO and a PC at the same time?

If I wanted to run a 55W PC white bulb and a 75W URI T12 Super Actinic, can it be done?

Which ballast, and how to wire?

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by ScottT
Can the workhorse line drive both a VHO and a PC at the same time?

If I wanted to run a 55W PC white bulb and a 75W URI T12 Super Actinic, can it be done?

Which ballast, and how to wire?

yes it can, you can use 2 wires for each bulb.

Steve

[2hi4u2c]

I appologize for the delay, I was out of town for work.. My ballast is an instant start, If anyone still has ?'s on wireing, let me know, and I will do a mock-up and snap a shot of it.
Alan

[ScottT]

Thanks Steve! suggestions on which one would be the best choice for a 55W PC and 75W VHO setup?

Alan, no problem - got is working now that I'm using an instant start ballast... thx.

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by ScottT
Thanks Steve! suggestions on which one would be the best choice for a 55W PC and 75W VHO setup?

Alan, no problem - got is working now that I'm using an instant start ballast... thx.

how long is the tank you are talking about?

Steve

[tycham]

OK, sounds like a great way to save money! Starting my first marine reef. I have had fish/invert before and a reef system that I had maintained at teh office.

My 200 gal is on order (4 weeks). In the meantime I am putting together the rest of the parts, building the cabinets (furniture grade quarter sawn oak), etc.

What should I plan, using this system? 4 or 6 lights? Color? Length?

[ScottT]

Steve, this lighting is for a 24" tank... that's why I thought a 55W PC (~22") and a 24" VHO (75W, I think). I think I just need to run these two for decent lighting... hopefully the combination of 55W Daylight and 75W Actinic will have a good look...

What do you suggest for this lighting? Thx, Scott

[StirCrazy]

should be good, if it isn't enuf light for you you could always add a second set later for more even coverage.

Steve

[striker3636]

Here's my question... If the new thought is that its best to run the tubes at 2X instead of 4X, does that mean I can run two tubes off a single 4 tube ballast, or is there some reason why I should still use one ballast per bulb? Is there still a benefit to using a 4 tube ballast if only running 2X, or would a a 2 tube ballast for a single tube give the same results?
Thanks

[ScottT]

You got it all right... only advantage with one ballast per bulb is the ability to turn them on at different times.

[marm64]

I got a Mororola instant start balast and it is for up to four bulbs and was wondring if I am only going to overdrive 2x does it matter which wires I use? does it matter if I use the blue, red, or one of each?

Thanks

[H20ENG]

I'd use 2 reds on one tube, and the 2 blues on the next. Then 1 yellow to each.

[sauer]

Has anyone tried the GE B432L120RH 4x Instant Start Ballast. I guess I would overdrive two bulbs with it, after reading reefburnaby's posts.

Just curious if anyone has had any experiences with this particular ballast.

Thanks

[H20ENG]

I'd say that as long as it states for 4 f32t8 lamps, it'd do the trick.

[sauer]

reefburnaby or anyone else -

will an F032T8 work the same way as the F32T8?

I have been able to locate those bulbs in 6500k.

[jjkahler]

F032 is the U-tubes correct? or is that F031? Anyway, should still work either way. Although if they are the U-tubes, I would think twice as these are VERY expensive (the U-tubes).

[sauer]

They are made by Sylvania and no they are not U tubes.

The guy at one store told me they use a different gas and a guy at another store said there is no difference.

It is called an octron T8.

[reefburnaby]

FO32T8 and F32T8 are equivalent. Sylvania just calls them differently...go figure.

- Victor.

[sauer]

I got it up and running tonight and wow, I am pretty impressed. I've got two over my 75 and plan on adding two more and a 4x VHO. Very nice

[pmui]

Can anyone recommend a 48" atinic tube that work OD?

Peter

[GROSSR]

Let's revive this thread.

How is everyones tank doing with the new lighting idea.

Do you think you system is better with this lighting? Worse?
What are your sources for T8 bulbs?

thanks

[Chrismo]

I've had 2 bulbs a 2X OVERNO for about 9 months now. They seem to be doing great. Dont look to be yellowing or dying yet either... and compared to the normal output ones right beside them, they are definitly brighter

I have 2 actinics that have been at 2x for a year and a half, and they still seem bright too, but I dont have any 1x reference bulbs to compare to.

Chris

[Reefer2]

I'm using 2 URI VHO's at 4X OD (actually 1/2 power) with 1 - T8 at 2X OD on a 90G. This lighting is great. I've got SPS, LPS and softies that are all doing good.

[GROSSR]

Reefer2 : The VHO's are 2x OD each (one ballast), and the 1 T8 is 2x OD on another ballast???

thanks

[Reefer2]

I drive the VHO's with an Advanced transformer meant for 4 T8's. This ends up being about 80 watts which is half what the VHO's are meant to run at. They produce a good quality light with little heat, for short money. The T8's are certainly cheaper, but I found the 6500K's to be a little too yellow for my taste. Combining the T8's with the VHO's seems to be a great mix. My T8's are 2X OD. These are all on a great little reflector I picked up that holds 3 bulbs. I'll look for the link if you're interested.

[badpacket]

This may be dumb, but would there be any sense in overdriving T5's? I guess they are still expensive, however I'm thinking of changing from PC's to NO's or T5's.

In fact, anyone got any data on how T5's compare to PC?

[-=Zepplock=-]

Ok. Couple of dummy guestions.

I have 20g freshtank.
With 1x15 watt (18'') lamp.
bought 4x32 ballast (recommended by author).
Connected yellow wire on one side, 2 red wires on other side.

questions:

1. I suppose I have now around 4X light?
2. didnt wire a grond from ballast - do I really need it? How to wire it If I need to?

[-=Zepplock=-]

Just installed everything.
About 3 hours, 2 trips to home depot. ;-)

I can't say it's 4 times more light, but definetely brigter ;-)

[GROSSR]

Not to burst your bubble, but, the original author said he tested out his lighting and found that 2x was optimal.

It took me quite a while to find it. He started with the 4x and then reported that with a meter he found 2x just as good and not nearly the heat.

LoL

rich

[-=Zepplock=-]

Well, GROSSR.
Depends on how you answer my questions ))

[Reefer2]

Reefburnaby originally used a 4X32 (about 100W net) ballast on a 48", 32W T8 bulb, but then determined 2X OD is a better solution like GROSSR pointed out.

IMO, the most you should be overdriving an 18", 15W bulb is with about 30W. That would be 2X. You could always try 45 or 60W (3X + 4X) but the extra heat and loss of efficiency may be a drawback.

Be careful, but more importantly - be smart.

[-=Zepplock=-]

ok. again.

connecting 15w lamp to 32w ballast gives 2x overdrive or no?
i

[Reefer2]

You said that you had a 4x32 ballast. If you connected all 4 wires from it to your single 15W bulb, there would likely be trouble.

If you connect a "single" wire from a 4x32 ballast, that would 2X overdrive a 15W lamp. This would probably give you a very nice light.

[-=Zepplock=-]

Reefer2 - nice. Thanx.

I connected 2 wires. Really bright. But bulb is bad. 3100K I think.
I plan to get 5000K or 6500K and probably unwire 1 wire and stick with 2x.

But 4x is ok for me now. Bulb is hot but I can keep hand on it for a long time. Ballast is hot but not very hot.

[-=Zepplock=-]

So, noone aswered about grounding.

I didn't connect it. Should I?

[tag007]

Ground the Ballast and the reflector. Doing both will not only make it a safer setup,it will give you longer lamp life (helping in generating a startup arc), and it will reduce the EMF generated by the ballast and lamps (which tends to grow when overdriving).

-TAG

[-=Zepplock=-]

My reflector is not metal - just white plastic (I have plans to put new one, gonna google around for that).

[larrylwill]

I just finished this whole thread, 3 hours reading whew!! I am buying 25 FLD32T120-6 Electronic ballasts. They run 3 T-8 tubes Im going to replace my 2-175W MV bulbs and 2- 40W Atinics used for the last for 8 years (not the same bulbs), which should look better and be cheaper to run. I tried MH but their too expensive to run if you buy a decent Bulb $60-$90 per year for 1 a 5500k minimum is $60. I plan on running at 3x possibley 2x. I will use some of the other ballast to replace my living room lights which are floresent 8 of them inderect and overdrive them 2x. Besides I built everything myself and dont want to stop now. The MV have do ok thus far. Everybody thinks Im crazey though. I use coated bulbs.

My question is what is the recommended amount of 2 or 3x overdriven 4' bulbs for a 55 gal. Tank. I have mostley shrooms and zoos. I was thinking 2 T8-32w x2 or 3 and 1- 32w atinic x2 or 3. Right now I will use my T12 Atinics as I have 4 new ones. Do you think that will be sufficent.

I should also have some left over if anybodys interested PM me. I should be able to sell them for $10 each and a couple dollars shipping. They will be new.

Thanks

[Reefer2]

I used 2x OD on T8 bulbs (6500k) based on Reefburnaby's suggestion. But I use all 4 outputs (about 90W I think) to run URI VHO tubes. This is a little more than half the normal current for these tubes (160W) but they look sweet. I'm hoping to get double the life of the VHO tubes by running half current.

The reason I went with VHO's is the 6500K's burn a little too yellow for my taste, and the actinic T8 bulbs do not overdrive very well at all.

[rick23]

Victor,
I only have one question.
The actinic T8 bulbs do not overdrive very well is base on 4x right?
Did you tried on 2x, cos the T8 6500k is good for 2x.

And I told my uncle about this threat, he found me a pic.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14464
take a look, but I think it can't stop me to try this..

Rick

[rick23]

Victor,
I only have one question.
The actinic T8 bulbs do not overdrive very well is base on 4x right?
Did you tried on 2x, cos the T8 6500k is good for 2x.

And I told my uncle about this threat, he found me a pic.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14464
take a look, but I think it can't stop me to try this..

Rick

[larrylwill]

I have put 2 - Atinic in series and use 3 outputs to drive them, you can see the difference and there not too overdriven. Like 1-1/2 times.

[pendulum]

HD has "work lights" they are t8 electronic ballasts (says so right on the box) They are setup for 2 bulbs 2', 3',4'. It comes in the tipical garage light housing. Perfect set up to easily overdrive a bulb with minimal effort. The best part is that everything is included for$7.45 here in ohio.

They care made by Commercial Electric called shop light.
They also make some bulbs (sold separately) t8 5000k 2 bulbs for $3.99

If you need 4 foot bulbs this makes it very easy and cheap. If you need 3foot cut off a foot of the housing and you are set.

I plan to throw 2 ballasts into one housing and use 2 lights.

just wanted to let you know. hope i didn't miss this same info somewhere in the post

shawn

[pendulum]

Had a little difficulty getting one to fire up tonight. I will recheck ground and wiring. Just don't want to recommend these ballasts if they arent going to work well.
shawn

[9axle]

I have been looking for this info for months, just didn't know what to look for. has anyone had any bad experiences with this?

[GROSSR]

None here. I have 2 t8's 2x and they work great. I have a t12 vho actinic 4x.

rich

[whaase]

I've been running 4 - T8 bulbs, all 4x overdriven for 1 1/2 years now. Works perfect!

Walter

[9axle]

I guess i'm off to the home dump.....

[Billyk]

Hey I just scored 4 Motorola- 4 bulb 120V Rapid Start T8 Fluorescent 120v Electronic Ballasts M4-RN-T5-1ll-120. All need now are some bulbs. I live in North cenral mass and can't find anything at the HD or Lowes. Any good places to get some blubs?

[marm64]

I bought my 6500 K bulbs from Grainger and my actinic T8 from petsoultions.com.

[Red_Roadster]

I have a bunch of T8 full spectrum bulbs at work that are 5500k, 93 cri, and 3000 lumen. Would this lamp work well if overdriven, or do I need a bulb with a higher kelvin rating? These bulbs are also rated to 30,000 hours.

Thanx,

Red

[DrMilhouse]

This post is still going. Wow. :) This is the lighting I have over my 125. I did four 48" 4x overdriven. The daylight delux bulbs are really the only way to go. They're at 6500k. Even with those, they're too yellow. (I'm using some actinic supliment to get rid of the yellow tint).

HD should have them. It's a phillips bulb, it's 5.97 for a two pack (5.49 for a single).

The bulbs are ones in the blue packaging. It's in the big box under the other specialty floresent bulbs.

HTH

[Scuba_Dave]

I just picked up 10 10k T-8 bulbs, $10 each at a LFS that was closing

[mf2055]

Howdey, I just read more of this post than I should have... getting too many ideas. So I have four electronic ballasts, each rated at 3.5 amps (440 watts) and I just bought some 55 watt PC lights and sockets... Can someone help me figure out how to wire them for regular output and then for 2-3X output? I have no clue how to wire them right now, so I really don't want to end up with an 8X output wire job if you know what I mean. Here is the info on the ballast:

General Electric Electronic 3.5 amp (440 watt max) type 1 ballast. It has a black wire on the top of both ends and a yellow/green wire on the bottom of both ends. Something like this:

__________
--Black--------| |---Black--------
| Ballast |
--Ylw/GRn-----| | --Ylw/GRn-----
|__________|

According to General Electric this ballast was designed for use with multiple Fluorescent, Compact fluorescent, or metal halide bulbs. They could not give me much help with a wiring diagram though. Ballast #:89G635


I bought these with the hopes of running 8 bulbs from each ballast before I realised I knew nothing about wiring them or if they would run more than one bulb each...


I thought I would ask here because some of you all obviously know a bit more about lighting than I do! Heck I didn't even know a CF bulb would get brighter if you gave it more juice...?

[mf2055]

Ballast diagram from above:

__________
__Black___| |___Black____
| ballast |
_Yel/GR___| |__Yel/GR____
|_________|

[mf2055]

why won't it post the extra spaces? IKE!

Ohh, and the Sockets are kind cheap maybe? they say 75 watt 125 volt on the back... I got them from petsupplyliquidator.com for $2 each......

Thank you to anyone who can help me out with this. I have asked GE & PSL numerous times and neither have been any help with wireing these things.

[a1]

well i just found this info on overdriving bulbs.I have been doing this for about 11 months.Im using 1 t8 bulb 5500k and 1 t12 antic.
As stated the lamp life on the t12 in 6 month is burned about 6 inch down both ends of the tube. I think you should do T8 antic instead of t12 for reasons stated in the articles first page or two.
Also the t8 bulb i replaced in 6 to 7 month becaused it had blacken about 2 inches down on both side,and bulb was only 3 dollars.Also from my test with watt meter and others i found that a 4x32 ballast with 2 of the outputs on one bulb overdrove the bulb to a factor of 1.7 but with all 4 outputs it was only 2.3 so i just do the 2x over drive thing and use the other 2 outs to overdrive the other tube. So i guess what im saying is that most ballast will not give you a true 4 x over drive when useing all 4 outputs.i got the most light for the bulk driving 2 bulbs from one 4x32 ballast. Also im not telling anyone to do this or try this.!!!!!!! Im just saying this is what i do. Also I would like to know if this is what other people are finding in ther diy :bum:

[a1]

sorry i read the first 2 pages and posted the info above.then i read page 15 and 16 i see where they found as i did that 2outputs of the ballast is the best way to go. also do not use the ballast on t12 antic bulbs or any t12 bulbs . You will find as i did,
that even if you drive the vho bulb at below the watts on bulb it will last 1/2 as long as it would if it was powered by the right vho ballast.I think this is due to the way the tube is started.

[a1]

(1)vho aro ballast wired as it should be 47watts one t8 - 107watts 2 t8 temp of the bulb 130degree
(2)ge 4x32 ballast 55watts 1 t8 - 90 watts 2 t8 wired x2 temp 130 ballast 110 degree
(3)pc55watt on aro vho ballast wired as it shoulb be? 107 watts on 2-55watt bulbs temp 160
(4)coralife 4x65 pc fixture = 141 watts total on all 4 bulbs running
(5)jbl 4x55 pc fixture = 122 watts total
(6)55 watt pc wired to ge 4x32 ballast with 2 55 watt bulbs = 102 watts temp = 102

[a1]

sorry temp on pc 55watt with ge ballast is 155 degree

[uncleof6]

you know I dont want to blast anyone on this forum for it shows incredibly bad taste, and an intolerance for others opinions..... electricity is much the same way... intolerant....

I read the first few pages of this then sorta skimmed through and noticed the gentleman that started this thread has not been around for a while.... wonder if his house burned down yet.......:eek2:

[H20ENG]

"you know I dont want to blast anyone on this forum for it shows incredibly bad taste, and an intolerance for others opinions..... electricity is much the same way... intolerant.... "

***?

[uncleof6]

What the gentleman that started this thread was doing, though it can work ... is not safe.... and that is not just My opinion....however, my training could be incorrect, and i could be sadly and severly wrong... if my round about way of offering a strong caution about this practice has offended any, I apologize.... My background is B.S.E.C.E, and the last ten years as an electrician........

Jim

[marm64]

I do not understand what is so bad about what we are doing. It is not like we took the ballast apart to run different we are still operating the ballast well within the design specs. Now the bulbs are a different story they are being driven with more power than they should but I do not think that it not ouside the safety margin.

The Icecap ballast do this to bulbs so you may want to write them a letter and state what you wrote here and inform them of your concers.

[uncleof6]

It is not the Icecap I have concerns about it is simply using devices in ways they were not designed for... in the whole electrical field this is one of the biggest issues... and I have seen the results of this first hand...it is one of the reasons the electrical code exists... (though the code does not apply to aquariums) and it is something to show some extreme caution and thought over....

An analogy would be perhaps trying to get the same wide angle view from an 8" f8 as you would get from an f4.5 although the risk would be non existant in this case....

I hope that this continues to work for you safely it is just in My experience (and not just my own) with this sort of thing, something goes wrong and usually it is not pretty ... time will tell...

Good luck

Jim

[BeanAnimal]

Uncleof6

If you look into it, you will find out that many commercial lighting products use overdriven t8 bulbs. The commercial lighting industry pushes these items as cost effective replacements to commercial MH lighting in warehouses and large factories. The fixtures do exactly what we are doing.... using a High Ballast Factor ballasts. Warning labels and specifications are one thing, common sense is another. In this day and age you will find that published specs are simply lawsuit preventers.... as are the useless warnings and large list of do's and don'ts.

Bean

[GulfCoastAquarian]

I don't know about reefburnaby, but he did check in about a year ago and said the setup was going fine.
I've been using a 2xODNO setup for over 2 years now and am actually still using the same bulbs (it is a planted tank, not a reef - less demanding of color spectrum).
Is it perfectly safe? Nope. But it has been used safely for quite some time now.
55w Power Compact bulbs are essentially overdriven T5 bulbs, bent in half. Judging by the temperatures that they operate at, (as show in a1's post above) the risk with ODNO is relatively low.
The biggest concerns, with me, would be:
A) Wrong Ballast
B) Incorrect Wiring

[AL ur Pal]

im thinking of overdriving 2 24" NO bulbs on a 4 48" ballast. Would this work? too much power? not enough?

[Dizzyswimmer]

Alright , Question I have T10 lights 48 " What Ballast do I need to OD them. The t8 ballast or what ?
Thanks, Dizzy

[El negrito]

A little of topic but ... I'ts so interesting to see this post keep going and going and going ....

[El negrito]

But it'll be even more ineresting to read about reefburnabys reflections and coments about his experiance in this DIY project after all this time.

[martinezdarius]

I just ran out today and purchased a Sylvania QT4X32 T8. Added a phillips 32w and 4x'd it. No problems, and the lighting was so amazing I went out and purchased another ballast ($18) and added yet another Phillps bulb! Great idea here, and now on to the 135g. :)....Thanks for the post reefburnaby!!

[gatohoser]

congratulations on your first post and welcome to reefcentral...some1 call melev over to do his animations!

[barristan]

I've been doing it for a couple of years now and I haven't had any problems. No bulbs exploding, no fire, nothing. I've ran them 2x, 3x and 4x, with no issues. Just as long as you have some basic understanding and respect for electricity you won't have any problems.
I've used the bulbs from HD, but found them to be too yellow, so I have only one on now. The best bulbs (cheapest) I have found are from Drsfostersmith, Zoo-med. You can get them for ~ $10 to $14 a piece.

AL ur Pal wrote
"im thinking of overdriving 2 24" NO bulbs on a 4 48" ballast. Would this work? too much power? not enough?"
I would think this is a little too far, I wouldn't try to drive them anymore than 4 times.

[highestbid]

I dont quite get this I guess. A NO 24" T-8 is only 18 watts even if I OD it 3X it seems I will only get me 32 watts. And even at this the only 10K bulbs I can find are $11 each. Four of these over my 29G would only give me 128 watts. 128 watts over 29G still limits you to softies and polyps. I get that from cheap PC without any OD at all. With 24" VHO I can get 300W. Am I missing some magic point that makes this such a great deal?

[gatohoser]

any horror stories to share yet?

[H20ENG]

You will be driving that 18 watt lamp with 32 watts with only one lead. With 2, you'd be pushing 60- but it would cook the lamp in short order. The general consensus is to only run 2x the normal wattage for NO lamps. 3X, you dont get much more light for the shortness of lamp life it causes.
If running VHO lamps, use all 4 leads, or simply buy a workhorse ballast:)

[highestbid]

I appreciate the correction :-) So it's not possible to 3X an 18Watt bulb with that ballast -- it will either be 2X (one lead) or 4X (2 leads)? I assume that I could get an 18W ballast somewhere and use it to 3X. I guess my real question was -- where exactly is the savings is if the T-8 bulbs (10,000K) are 1/2 or more the cost of VHO bulbs (at least in this length -- might be a different story in larger bulbs)?

[H20ENG]

I've NEVER known N.O. T8 lamps to cost more than any VHO lamps. (???) I have noticed that shorter lamps are actually more $ than 4' lamps because they make less of them.
You could run 4-18 watt lamps from a 4x f32T8 ballast and have a good amount of light- almost double the wattage as normal.
HTH

[highestbid]

Can you give me a link to some cheaper T-8's?

[H20ENG]

Look at the Zoomed T8s. Maybe www.drsfostersmith.com

[H20ENG]

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4489&N=2004+113177

[spykes]

VEL-4P32-RH-TP would this ballast work for me?
i wanna do 2x 18 inches

[orlenz]

Originally posted by Agu





Could something like this be done with shorter bulbs? For example, using two 2" bulbs in series for cheap refugium lighting ???



Yeah thats kind of what I did for my refugium I used two 24" 20w lamps, I dint wire them in series though I wired them straight using a ballst made for two 48" 40 watt lamps, there a lot brighter this way, but it does shorten the life of the lamps, its just as easy to get the proper ballast, and run either HO or VHO, but it works if you dont have the cash.

[spykes]

well i seen alot of victor's ratings on par, does over drive PC really give you enough par compared to VHOs and PCs. i wanna know if the OVDR T-8s are worth it compared to like PCs.

[highestbid]

Originally posted by H20ENG
I've NEVER known N.O. T8 lamps to cost more than any VHO lamps. (???) I have noticed that shorter lamps are actually more $ than 4' lamps because they make less of them.
You could run 4-18 watt lamps from a 4x f32T8 ballast and have a good amount of light- almost double the wattage as normal.
HTH

Even at almost double the power that is still just barely better than the 130 watts I get from my current PC lighting. Buying 4 of the bulbs you give the link to would cost $54

replacing my current PC bulbs is about $56

two URI VHO of 75 watts each are only $58
and a workhorse ballast to drive them is very nearly
the same as the f32t8 ballast to OD the t-8's
I didn't do this for the same reason tho, not enough improvment
over my current setup to justify buying a new ballast

Not trying to be pig headed here but I still fail to see the big advantage of overdriving. Again maybe the math works out diffferent with larger bulbs

[pangea]

How is this working for all of you?
I have the stuff to do it on my 240, but was wondering on bulb life coloration and growth rates.

Any updates?

[255 255 255 0]

i am definitely gonna try this....i will setup 4 f32t8s, each overdriving a 48" 40w.. hope this works.

[miatawnt2b]

I have a bunch of 48" t12/t8 electronic instant start ballasts laying around that each drive 2 tubes. If I remember correctly, each has 4 yellow wires, 2 blue and 2 red. So I should be able to run 1 t8 with each ballast and get 2x overdriven, Correct?

Now I can't exactly understand how to wire the endcaps. Each tube has 2 pins on each end. Am i just supposed to twist all yellow together, all blues and reds together and use 1 pin on each side of the tube?

-J

[H20ENG]

miatawnt2b
Sounds like a 4 lamp ballast. You can drive 2 lamps OD.
2 twisted yellows to each lamp. Then 2 twisted blues on one and 2 twisted reds on the other.

[WarDaddy]

I set up my tank based on this design.

I have 4 ballasts each are 4 lamp 32w, for the 4ft tubes.

I have Overdriving 4 6500K bulbs from home depot at 2x
and I am overdriving 2 VHO antanic bulbs at 4x.

The setup is VERY bright, it is on a 55 Gallon, soon to be reef.

here is a gallery of the construction of the hood/lights...

http://gifford-family.smugmug.com/gallery/651634

[glenns]

I decided to try to over-drive my 36" 10000K T8's. I purchased a GE -432-MAX-N-IP from Home Depot. This electronic ballast is designed to drive 4 T8 bulbs. My concearn is that it is not for residential use only. Has anyone used this ballast in their unit?

I replaced the ballast in the 2 bulb strip with the GE ballast. Fits perfectly. Wired it up per the instructions to get 2x from each bulb. The light is more intense than before.

[glenns]

Do ZooMed bulbs tend to fail when you overdrive them? I have 36" 10000K bulbs, and two have died.

[spykes]

for what you guys are doing... you can do T-5s for about the same amount =/

[glenns]

I have not been able to locate a T5 retro kit. The light fixtures I've seen start at $300 and go up to $700. In contrast, my two ballasts cost less than $60. I'm only keeping corals that require low to moderate light.

I think the lights may have failed, because they were old, and I did not have the fixture wired properly. I've since corrected the wiring. Hopefully I will not have anymore problem.

[glenns]

I give up on over-driving. I've lost about $75 in bulbs. I've decided to go with T5's. Hopefully I can return the ballast. They are still running fine. I guess the 36" bulbs cannot handle the increase.

[ronc98]

Has anyone tried driving a 72" VHO Actinic with the standard over drive setup? Not really trying to over drive the VHO just want to drive them close to their max without a VHO ballast.

[Mr. Ugly]

Been running 2x ODNO on an 80g softie tank for about a year. Haven't changed the tubes yet. 2 HD shop lights, with 2 Phillips daylight tubes and 2 Zoomed actinics.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/80/DSCN0840.jpg

[pangea]

Ugly,
That is great how are your softies liking it (they look good). What ballast are you using?

[Mr. Ugly]

Thx, Pangea.

The ballast is one of the instant start ones at Home Depot. Advance something or other. It's the one that can run 4 48" tubes.

I just get the $8 shop light and swap out the ballast for the Advance instant start ballast, and wire it up as 2x ODNO.

[spence15610]

this has been a very good post, Could we see more pictures of tanks with this lighting set up

[Roland Jacques]

So how do you guys think the light output of these ODx2 32 setup compares to T-5 HO 54 watts bulb???

[Roland Jacques]

Am i thinking right? when it stated that 1.7 power factor when overdriving 2xs.

So the wattage should be 32watts x 1.7 = 54 watts.

[BeanAnimal]

PF 1.7? No such thing.

PF is a non dimensional number with 1 being a purely resistive load that returns NO energy back to the source (unity). 0 is a purely reactive load that returns all of the energy back to the source (does not work). PF of most ballasts is .4 to .6 HPF (high power factor ballasts) come in at .9.

Have no idea what or where the 1.7 came from or what it refers to unless you are confusing "Crest Factor" with "Power Factor".

The crest factor states the peak amount of current that the ballast will draw at the peak of the sinewave (remember RMS measurements?)

The "CF" is the peak value of the sine wave divided by the RMS value... confused yet?

Well anyway most ballasts come in around a 1.7 CF It is just a way of showing the ripple that the ballasts create (or depending on persective, smooth) with regard to the sine wave they are being fed with. It is "tied" to the PF but not the same thing.

Without getting real confusing... lets say the Crest Factor is 1.7 that means even though the RMS current through the bulb is 1A, at points in the sine wave, that current can hit 1.7A where the RMS current (what you are billed for ... as calcuted with the Power Factor and Voltage) is still 1A


Does that help?

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8829453#post8829453 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal


Does that help?

:hmm4: NO!!!

But thanks for trying Bean. Its me Roland here, you need to talk down to me a little.

im just trying see find out how close in comparison to the T-5 this 2xs overdrive would be.

Im setting up a prop system of six 12x12 x48" tanks (old Mars systems) im looking at doing lighting on the cheep.
18 lights total. The math tells me this way is cheaper.

Overdrive set up $250
9 ballast for $110 (bulk price). 12 sunshine bulbs $42 Six zoomed actintics $84
(lowes has a a GE 'sunshine bulb that looks good cri and lumme wise $3.50 ). price wise looks like the way to go.

T-5 setup $560
18 bulbs $20 ea = $360, 6 workhorse8 ballast $33ea = $198

(without the good parabolic refletors) do you think they would be close PAR/ lummen wise?

[Roland Jacques]

this is wher i got the 1.7 factor. The power i through in myself, my bad.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=3220187#post3220187 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by a1
well i just found this info on overdriving bulbs.I have been doing this for about 11 months.Im using 1 t8 bulb 5500k and 1 t12 antic.
As stated the lamp life on the t12 in 6 month is burned about 6 inch down both ends of the tube. I think you should do T8 antic instead of t12 for reasons stated in the articles first page or two.
Also the t8 bulb i replaced in 6 to 7 month becaused it had blacken about 2 inches down on both side,and bulb was only 3 dollars.Also from my test with watt meter and others i found that a 4x32 ballast with 2 of the outputs on one bulb overdrove the bulb to a factor of 1.7 but with all 4 outputs it was only 2.3 so i just do the 2x over drive thing and use the other 2 outs to overdrive the other tube. So i guess what im saying is that most ballast will not give you a true 4 x over drive when useing all 4 outputs.i got the most light for the bulk driving 2 bulbs from one 4x32 ballast. Also im not telling anyone to do this or try this.!!!!!!! Im just saying this is what i do. Also I would like to know if this is what other people are finding in ther diy :bum:

[H20ENG]

Roland,
Thats a good deal on 4x32t8 ballasts. Jump on them.
I have seen 2x32 shoplight fixtures with electronic ballasts for $10 at HD or Lowes. This would require a second 2 x 32 ballast to wire into the fixture, but this would give you the fixture, endcaps, reflector, etc. Or get the shoplights and completely swap for the single 4 lamp ballasts.
I think the consensus is that ODing 2 lamps is the best all around mix of output and longevity. Unfortunately I have never used t5s to compare it to.

[H20ENG]

Oh, and Philips makes a 6500K "daylight" lamp for the same cost as the 5000K GE sunshine lamp. I have even seen them at HD or Lowes.

[Roland Jacques]

Thanks Bro,

Do you think the Philips is better than GE?

I looked at the daylight bulb (GE ones anyway at lowes) and they had a slighty lower lummen 2700 vs 2800 and CRI 78 vs 86 than the sunshine 5000k. So i was leaning towards the sunshine. Im running some 5000k right now they look preety good, maybe a little whiter/crisper than the 6500k ill have to try them both side by side.

[Danyal]

wow, i'm suprised this practice hasn't become know here before now. check out some FW planted forums, i saw this same idea a year ago on plantedtank.net and would have tried doing this before but i can't wire a ballast to a floresent light, i've tried with a few from old fixtures but always end up putting them into the garage for later. i think the "stick all the yellows on one side and the red and blue wires on the other" is about the most helpful discription i've heard so far. anyway here is a great sticky on ODNO setups and it even has some numbers-
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/21257-odno-measurements-power-consumption-vs-light.html

[BeanAnimal]

There are some HUGE threads here on the subject... some from well over a year ago and some newer.

Bean

[Roland Jacques]

Danyal, great link!!!
Ill try to finish that thread latter thanks. This ODNO is all new to me, got to love it.

[gpodio]

If interested this article was for a planted tank but the wiring is shown in the photos and may be of some use to you. I've been using ODNO setups for about 4 years now and I've tried many different combinations. I've also been overdriving PCs and T6 bulbs lately with great results. The T6HO bulbs rival the T5 bulbs in my opinion and due to the use of standard end caps I feel they will eventually become quite popular. I'm currently running 48" T6HO at 110W each and very happy with them, specially now that the LFS are starting to carry T6 bulbs... However the HO versions I still have to order online.

http://www.gpodio.com/overdrive_twin_strip.asp

There are some links to other articles with some numbers but I found that over 2x OD efficiency starts to drop considerably and heat becomes an issue. At 2x I don't need any fans and bulb life seems uneffected for the most part.

[H20ENG]

Bad link gpodio.....

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8833911#post8833911 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gpodio
If interested this article was for a planted tank but the wiring is shown in the photos and may be of some use to you. I've been using ODNO setups for about 4 years now and I've tried many different combinations. I've also been overdriving PCs and T6 bulbs lately with great results. The T6HO bulbs rival the T5 bulbs in my opinion and due to the use of standard end caps I feel they will eventually become quite popular. I'm currently running 48" T6HO at 110W each and very happy with them, specially now that the LFS are starting to carry T6 bulbs... However the HO versions I still have to order online.

http://www.gpodio.com/overdrive_twin_strip.asp

There are some links to other articles with some numbers but I found that over 2x OD efficiency starts to drop considerably and heat becomes an issue. At 2x I don't need any fans and bulb life seems uneffected for the most part.

The link does not seem to work.

It seem to be a little mixed on the 4xs ODNO or to 2xs ODNO for bulb life. Im going with 5 tanks 2xs and 1 tank 4xs and see how they compare.

i have not seen any t-6 bulb yet but ill look into them also. Where did you find them?How are you running it to get 110 watts ?

I need to find a cheap light meter any sugestions?

I going to search out DIY refectors now. at a time coralife use to put alluminum or maylar tape on the back side of bulb i wonder how effective that is.

[tanya72806]

so where are the before and after pics of the sps tanks using these ?????

[gpodio]

Sorry guys, we have a power outage in the office where the web server is :-( The link will work in the morning!

[gpodio]

OK we have power again! Sorry about that!

Tanya, personally I only have "after" shots of my SPS tank as I was already overdriving bulbs when I started my SPS tank. However we're not talking about "different" lighting, just more light out of your existing bulbs. Besides the obvious changes an increase in light intensity will have, I would not be expecting any other big changes overall. The 'proof' you are seeking would most likely come from a lux meter than before/after shots.

[gpodio]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8837755#post8837755 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Roland Jacques
The link does not seem to work.

It seem to be a little mixed on the 4xs ODNO or to 2xs ODNO for bulb life. Im going with 5 tanks 2xs and 1 tank 4xs and see how they compare.

i have not seen any t-6 bulb yet but ill look into them also. Where did you find them?How are you running it to get 110 watts ?

I need to find a cheap light meter any sugestions?

I going to search out DIY refectors now. at a time coralife use to put alluminum or maylar tape on the back side of bulb i wonder how effective that is.

These are the T6 bulbs I have been buying lately:
http://www.naturallighting.com/web/shop.php?crn=704
More here:
http://www.naturallighting.com/web/shop.php?crn=591

These are nothing more than linear power compacts in reality. Most power compacts are T6 diameter. They just have better reflector efficiency just like T5 bulbs.

I have been running the 48" 55W 6500K T6 bulbs for about a year now on one of my main planted tanks and they are still running strong. Each bulb is powered by 2x55W circuits using workhorse ballasts.

I also have another tank running the NO version of these bulbs which are rated at 40W. I am running each bulb on a 2x32W T8 ballast identical to the one in the article above. Not quite 2x but the gain is still quite visible. T5 ballasts will also run these T6 bulbs very well, that's actually the intended ballast for these. The biggest advantage is that they don't require new endcaps.

One of our local fish stores upgraded all their lighting to T6 about 3-4 months ago. A big difference from their previous T12/T8 setups. Obviously their SPS holding tank is running MH, but everything else is T6. Several stores in my area now carry the T6NO bulbs rated at 40W for a 48" bulb. These are direct replacements for 40W T12 or 32W T8 bulbs. The 55W HO bulbs would require a new ballast and that is likely why there is less demand/availability at the regular LFS. I'm sure specialized stores, specially online stores will carry them with time.

Not sure what to recommend for a light meter. I have never needed actual readings myself so I have used camera light meters and even an old SLR with built in meter. Knowing how many stops difference the lights provide is enough info for my basic needs.

I'd try 3xOD before 4x. At 4x the temperature really skyrockets, there is always the "rated" bulb temperature where the bulb runs most efficiently. Going way over or under this temperature will cause a drop in efficiency so 4x will likely not come close to twice the lumen output of 2x. Also at 4x the bulbs usually die of filament failure when their time comes, where as at 2x the bulbs age in pretty much the same way as regular bulbs running at 1x.

Hope that helps

[Roland Jacques]

wow what a learning curve im going thougth. thanks

[tanya72806]

from how I understood the thread was people are using NO bulbs from home depot overdriven to run there tanks. NOT using regular SW bulbs that they already had

[gpodio]

Well that's another story, if you know your bulbs or do enough research you can certainly find good bulbs to use that are not re-branded by companies that cater to our hobby. Many of these bulbs are indeed manufactured by larger companies such as GE, Sylvania and Philips.

However, if we look back to the first post, the objective is to match the Icecap ballasts using regular ballasts from hardware stores. But yes, these are two separate topics, one the use of regular ballasts to overdrive bulbs or for example to drive a VHO at regular power using a combination of ballast feeds. The other issue may be the use of regular daylight bulbs which I do use personally on my SPS tank however in combination with 20K MH bulbs so it's not fair for me to evaluate these bulbs by looking at the tank as a whole.

My experience lies mostly in planted tanks so I put some of those concepts into the reef setup too. I use daylight bulbs mostly for growth, once the tank is grown in I'll probably stick to 20K alone or in general higher kelvin ranges to enhance color and slow down growth rate.

But when in doubt, forget the HD bulbs and just overdrive your usual bulbs. That is what I'd do unless you have other reasons to want to change your existing bulbs.

[Roland Jacques]

gpodio
So you are 2xs overdriving T6 HO with good results? I found T5 HO x 2 ballast for $13. How good do the T-6 actinic work in OD.

your link works now! thanks

[gpodio]

Mind sharing the source of the ballast you found? :D

The T6 bulbs I have been 2XOD are the 6500-6700K bulbs I use on my planted tanks. I am happy with them.

Unfortunately I have not tried the actinic T6 bulbs, the LFS I mentioned before is using them however on regular 54W T5 ballasts. Plus I have yet to try using a dedicated T5 ballast overdriving the T6 bulbs. I've been using the workhorse ballasts and T8 ballasts for the most part due to the difference in cost, however sounds like you just found a better deal than I have been able to find. T5 ballasts usually run at higher frequencies too so there may some differences when overdriving the bulbs with it, but it's worth a shot for $13. If you can, try it on an old T5 or T6 bulb first, some don't handle it as well as others, if you see flickering/sparking inside the tube near the endcaps, the filament is being burned out and bulb is toast. Another good option I've used in the past are 96W PC ballasts, these are close enough to 110W to call them nearly 2x on a 55W HO bulb and the nice thing is you don't need two circuits. Heat is also a little lower and the light output seems "close enough".

One thing worth noting is that ballasts usually run multiple circuits internally to run several bulbs. For example a 4x32W T8 ballast usually contains two independant circuits internally, each supplying power to two bulbs. Hence the pair of red and pair of blue wires. When combining feeds to overpower a bulb, I have always made it a rule for myself to combine only feeds from the one circuit. Therefore I never combine a red and blue lead. I haven't tried combining different circuits because my gut feeling tells me it may cause problems for some ballasts. For the same reason when I'm buying a ballast for two bulbs I always check that the two feeds are color coded the same, this usually indicates they are being fed by the same circuit. I would also not suggest combining feeds from two separate ballasts. It's been a while since I burned out a ballast but when magnetics were the norm I certainly killed my fair share playing around with this stuff.

Oh, last thing, some ballasts have protection circuits which help avoid overcurrent and detect when a bulb has reached it's end of life. These ballasts may refuse to overpower the bulbs so try to stick to "dumber" technology. I would imagine that some T5 ballasts are also using such technology.

Hope that helps, let me know where you're getting the ballasts from as my new tank arrives today and I'm planning on doing something similar with the actinic T6 bulbs.

[Roland Jacques]

gpodio
I PMed you the ballast info

Thanks for the heads up on the wiring

[rksemt]

Can anyone tell me how to properly wire this thing? I have read all through this post and cant figure out what im doing wrong. I have an Advance 4x32 ballast. it has 2 red wires and 2 blue wires on one side. On the other side it has a black and white and two yellow wires. i wired the black and white to the power cable, blk to blk and wht to wht. i scratched some paint off the ballast and wired the green (ground) directly to it. i then ran the two blu wires to eash side of one endcap, and two reds to each side of another endcap. i ran each yellow to an endcap, i split each yellow so it would touch both pins. I CANT GET IT TO LIGHT. I have a fish only for around 10 months and would like to try some soft corals but im kinda broke/cheap and want to try this lighting. btw, im trying to start two 17" bulbs with this, i think that is 4x overdrive?

[rksemt]

oops, they are 24" bulbs, not 17"

here is my wiring:

power---blk/wht------------ballast------2red-------------,
,-----,-----2yellow-------ballast-----2blue---------, |
| | | |
| '-------------------LIGHT-------------------------' |
| |
'-------------------------LIGHT-----------------------------'


i hope this makes sense and is not completely stupid

[rksemt]

ok, that didnt work, it got all jacked up after i posted it. anywho, its like i explained in the first post. i would really appreciate any help.

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8948058#post8948058 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rksemt
ok, that didnt work, it got all jacked up after i posted it. anywho, its like i explained in the first post. i would really appreciate any help.

hope this helps. 4xs runs to hot, unless you can do some major cooling the lamp 2xs is better.

this is 4xs
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-tank-faq/175-cheap-lighting-odno.html

[Icefire]

Personnally I find that dangerous, as an electrician.

It's like running a gas engine on jet fuel..

Might work for a while, untill the ballast get on fire and burn down the house?

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8949907#post8949907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Icefire
Personally I find that dangerous, as an electrician.

It's like running a gas engine on jet fuel..

Might work for a while, until the ballast get on fire and burn down the house?
since it has been done for over 5 years by many people, including electricians, engineers,... I think your fears ??? but that OK

BTW running a gas engine on jet fuel is not dangerous ether it just wont run.

[DgenR8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8950035#post8950035 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Roland Jacques


BTW running a gas engine on jet fuel is not dangerous ether it just wont run.


I'm not sure that's correct. I can guarantee burned valves, and likely other serious engine malfunctions if it did start, but I think it would run, at least briefly.
That's a topic for another thread, on another BB ;)

As for overdriving bulbs, I would be concerned about safety issues, mostly the ballast, and the endcaps. Bulbs should just burn out, not explode or anything like that.
I understand that a lot of people are running this type of set up, rather long term at this point, but I couldn't be comfortable with it. After having one of those dollar store power strips catch fire in my basement (tank related), I tend to shy away from "cheap, and probably okay"

[gpodio]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8947910#post8947910 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rksemt
Can anyone tell me how to properly wire this thing? I have read all through this post and cant figure out what im doing wrong. I have an Advance 4x32 ballast. it has 2 red wires and 2 blue wires on one side. On the other side it has a black and white and two yellow wires. i wired the black and white to the power cable, blk to blk and wht to wht. i scratched some paint off the ballast and wired the green (ground) directly to it. i then ran the two blu wires to eash side of one endcap, and two reds to each side of another endcap. i ran each yellow to an endcap, i split each yellow so it would touch both pins. I CANT GET IT TO LIGHT. I have a fish only for around 10 months and would like to try some soft corals but im kinda broke/cheap and want to try this lighting. btw, im trying to start two 17" bulbs with this, i think that is 4x overdrive?

Here's the classic wiring diagram for overdriving bulbs:

http://www.gpodio.com/posts/overdrive.jpg

In series, you sum the bulb's wattages as if you are running a longer tube.

If it's 15W bulbs you have, I would suggest you run them off a single feed at 32W. This should work very well for you at 2x overdrive. Just run one red feed to one end of the bulb and a yellow to the other. Do the same for the second bulb and leave out the remaining two wires or add another two bulbs :D

IceFire, besides the older magnetic ballasts that ran starters, I have yet to see an electronic ballast do anything more than heat up and quit working. I have purposely tried to push bulbs to the point of no return and the most they will do is spark internally as the electrodes fuse and then quit working... The only concern I have is with cheap end caps, oddly enough the one time they did spark and burn up on me was in a regular NO fixture... go figure. It's a danger that is ever present in all fixtures, specially in humid environments. This is why it is important to "bridge" the two pins on an endcap when using a single feed/wire to the endcap. Even in regular commercial fixtures this isn't always done and it should be! Bridging the pins divides the current load across the two pins, greatly reducing the chances of arching or overheating. It will also prolong electrode life within the bulb.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo

[miatawnt2b]

here is a good writeup

http://www.geocities.com/teeley2/overdrv1.html

also do a google search for overdriving fluorescent ballasts
You will find there is a lot of info out there about it. Folks in the plantgrow arena have been doing this a long time.

-J

[DgenR8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8952740#post8952740 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gpodio
The only concern I have is with cheap end caps, oddly enough the one time they did spark and burn up on me was in a regular NO fixture... go figure. It's a danger that is ever present in all fixtures, specially in humid environments. This is why it is important to "bridge" the two pins on an endcap when using a single feed/wire to the endcap. Even in regular commercial fixtures this isn't always done and it should be! Bridging the pins divides the current load across the two pins, greatly reducing the chances of arching or overheating. It will also prolong electrode life within the bulb.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo


Not my only concern, but I'd agree that your endcaps are most likely to be the ignition point, should one of these set ups catch fire.

Giancarlo, if you would please explain "bridging the pins" a little further. I think that's important for people to know about, and the way you said it could leave some people wondering.

[gpodio]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8954297#post8954297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DgenR8
Not my only concern, but I'd agree that your endcaps are most likely to be the ignition point, should one of these set ups catch fire.

Giancarlo, if you would please explain "bridging the pins" a little further. I think that's important for people to know about, and the way you said it could leave some people wondering.

Actually that link posted above explains it perfectly, here's a picture from that link:

http://www.geocities.com/teeley2/image003.jpg

As you can see, the is a jumper wire connecting the two pins when a single feed is used from the ballast (pictured bottom right). By doing this, the current to the electrode travels through both pins. Once the bulb is lit, the voltage drops but the initial starting voltage can easily arch if the contact between the pin and endcap is not good. Having both pins connected greatly reduces the chances of arching.

Hope that's clearer
Giancarlo

[DgenR8]

Perfect ;)

[gpodio]

BTW, instant start ballasts simplify the wiring by a long shot. I prefer not to use rapid start ballasts personally as you are forced to use a single pin to drive the lamp (the other pin used to pre-heat the filament). Seeing our lights are turned on and off only a couple times a day, there is little to no advantage in using rapid start ballasts. Just a consideration in case anyone is ballast shopping to try any of this...

Giancarlo

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8955086#post8955086 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gpodio
BTW, instant start ballasts simplify the wiring by a long shot. I prefer not to use rapid start ballasts personally as you are forced to use a single pin to drive the lamp (the other pin used to pre-heat the filament). Seeing our lights are turned on and off only a couple times a day, there is little to no advantage in using rapid start ballasts. Just a consideration in case anyone is ballast shopping to try any of this...

Giancarlo

rapid stat are easyer on the lamps normaly ( longer lamp life) , im would think they might still have the same benifits when in OD also. not sure?

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8951581#post8951581 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DgenR8
I'm not sure that's correct. I can guarantee burned valves, and likely other serious engine malfunctions if it did start, but I think it would run, at least briefly.
"

Maybe a few gas engine (drag race cars).
JP-4 & JP-5 (jet fuel) would require compression of 13:1 or higher ratio to get the fuel hot enough to burn. it is pretty much the same as diesel fuel.

As for fire likelihood it is much more likely to have have fire potential because of loose wiring... (ive seen a few NO fixtures melted/ fires...) nothing a a GFI could not have prevented. A GFI should be on all aquarium Equipment IMO

[TheGriffin]

Alot of people dont relize that JP-5 is just Kerosene. JP-4 is a mixture of gasoline and Kerosene in the neighborhood of 50-50 to 35 gas and 65 Kerosene.

[DgenR8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8967560#post8967560 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TheGriffin
Alot of people dont relize that JP-5 is just Kerosene. JP-4 is a mixture of gasoline and Kerosene in the neighborhood of 50-50 to 35 gas and 65 Kerosene.


I had no idea. I always thought that "jet fuel" was more refined than gasoline. Thanks for the education. :)
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.....

[BeanAnimal]

Just the same, most people think high octane fuel burns better or has more BTUs. The octane actually reduces the combustion temperature and volatility.

Don't worry dgenr8 most folks who are not aviators or aviation buffs don't know that kind of stuff.

Now "rocket fuel" is a different story. But even some of that is not as high tech as you would think.

RP-1 is LOX and Kerosene! (LOX is... you guessed it liquid Oxygen)

The "nasty stuff" is the Hypergolic fuel like Hydrazine and Nitrogen Tetroxide. Nasty nasty stuff from any perspective.

[BeanAnimal]

Roland the reason we burn "av gas" or high octane fuels in some drag cars is because of the high compression. More volatile fuel would detonate long before the piston reached TDC (top dead center). Detonation is the act of the fuel compressing and exploding as the piston is still on the upstroke. This can cuase a little "knocking" and rob some power in the family car. However on a high torque, high horsepower motor the effects can be spectacular. These include the internal parts of the engine being sent flying through the block and into the ether!

That brings us to "fuel cars" and what they run... It is nasty stuff called Nitro Methane. BUT a fuel engine does not run like a normal engine. Instead of fuel vapor being pulled into the pistons, these monsters consume straight liquid Nitro Methane with a burp of air. The extreme compression causes a violent explosion. That is why they can get 6000+ hp out of a somewhat small internal combustion engine. That is why they also explode like bombs when something goes wrong.

Sorry... back to the topic at hand.

[spence15610]

A friend of mine who works for a lighting company that installs and services commercial lighting systems, says that the Advance or GE Max 4 x 32/T8 electronic ballast is the same as a Workhorse 5 ballast and if you open them up they all look the same. Has anyone else ever heard of that ?

[Urban_Squrill]

Wow I started reading this thread a couple days ago. Dam some good infomation. I have a 4x32 ballast currently running one t8 6500k 4x. I am debaiting wether or not to add my second bulb I have sitting around and just 2x them. If I were to run those 2 bulbs at 2x and have my 2x110 VHo setup what would this be compairable to? What could I keep.

[H20ENG]

spence,
Please take no offence, but can you define "looks the same"?

If you open any electronic ballast, they all have caps, resistors and small coils. Me not being well versed in electronics, they would "all look the same to me".

Though I have changed out hundreds of ballasts of all types in a commercial setting, I personally couldnt build one or tell if one was exactly the same as the other.

Maybe he could tell. I was just wondering aloud, as it would be nice to know which ballasts are really the same, but rebranded.

[gpodio]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8967042#post8967042 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Roland Jacques
rapid stat are easyer on the lamps normaly ( longer lamp life) , im would think they might still have the same benifits when in OD also. not sure?

True, but rapid start are only "easier" on the bulbs during initial startup. Post-startup, the lamp is driven by a single lead from a single endpin (at least on the rapid start ballasts I have tested). So while a kitchen light that gets turned on and off many times a day will last longer on a rapid start ballast, an aquarium light that gets 1-2 start cycles a day is more likely to die of other causes than depletion of the emission mixture that is on the filament (the coating that is protected by rapid start ballasts). Further, seeing we're overdriving the bulbs, we're better off being able to feed the extra current through both endpins than one alone.

If I'm not mistaken, the "statistics" taken into consideration when choosing rapid over instant start ballasts is around 3-4 hours of "on-time" a day. Anything under this and rapid start is suggested, over it and you'll likely deplete something else in the lamp before the filament coatings.

As for the workhorse ballasts, there is little difference between ballasts full stop, just the outer shell differs and amount of current each circuit provides. The WH5 is a 128W ballast, identical to a T8 4x32W ballast as far as current goes. When used on 55W PC bulbs, two 32W feeds are used to power the lamp at 64W, a mild form of ODPC ;) (This is where the 55W/65W issue comes from, it's a matter of what ballast you run them from, a 55W or 2x32W...) But frequency is very important in a ballast and this is what sets many ballasts aside, if the ballasts you mentioned run at the same frequency as the WorkHorse series then yes they are identical.

Giancarlo