Plumbing question!!

[thaoctopus]

Okay, let me start by saying I have no clue when it comes to plumbing and flow etc..
A friend suggested to buy a Mag 9.5 for my 60gal. reef tank to have more water pressure/flow in my tank
.
This is how it is setup:
Mag9.5 in my sump
3/4 tubing

Hose connect it to-check valve-to-hose-to-ball valve-to-hose-to Y connector-to-(2) hoses that split to the left and right sides of my tank. I have (2) returns on each side of my tank.

I had to adjust the ball valve to limit the amount of flow because it was overflowing my tank and draining my sump.

The problem is that the pressure/flow from my 2 returns are barely there. There doesnt seem to be enough.

Any suggestions as to how to have my mag 9.5 go full bore and not flood my tank and take water from my sump? I would like a heavy flow in my tank.

Do you think its setup wrong?

Thanks so much.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

The maximum return rate is governed by the drain plumbing's limit.

What size drain bulkhead(s) do you have? I'm guessing a single 1" drain, that's the most common for that size tank. That would let you have about 650 gph flow, max. Split over several returns into the tank, that certainly won't feel like a lot.

So, if you really want more flow through the sump, you'll have to get a larger drain bulkhead (basically impossible once the tank is set up) or add a second overflow (also impossible or difficult except for a hang-on, which IMHO isn't ideal.)

Otherwise, the rate you're seeing now is the max you'll get.

Now, if all you're looking for is more movement in the display tank, you can simply plop a few powerheads in there. Or, if you're feeling adventurous, make a closed loop.

[thrlride]

What type of overflow does your tank have? Sounds like your pump is exceeding that overflow and causing a tank overflow.

[thaoctopus]

I have an overflow with a U-tube. Its external. So it drains thru a hose behind my tank, and into my sump.
Could I get a bigger U-tube?

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Having a hang-on overflow means you're in luck, you can just buy one with more capacity.

The U-tube section of the overflow is a full siphon, it's size does not limit the flow capacity of the overflow.

The component that dictates max flow is the size of the drain bulkhead(s) in the bottom of the box that the drain plumbing connects to. So, you basically want to go buy a box with either a bigger hole or more holes than your current box has. If you're crafty, you might be able to either enlarge the current hole or add another one, though it might not be worth the trouble and danger of ruining the box.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Again though, I want to stress the other options. If you go buy a better overflow box just so you can turn your Mag 9.5 up a tiny bit more, you might only get one or two hundred GPH of extra flow. That overflow box upgrade might cost $75. On the other hand, you could leave things as they are and just go buy a Maxi-Jet 1200 powerhead - 250 gph or so for $15 - $20.

[thaoctopus]

Thanks,
The only issue I have is that I spent a total of about $160 worth of equipment to get this thing running.
Would I be able to increase the size of the Hose and not the bulkhead?
Yeah, I had a couple RIOs in my tank, but my buddy thought that this would be better.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

It's a bottleneck situation - if you increase the hose and the standpipe without increasing the bulkhead itself, the overall flow won't really increase a noticeable amount. It all boils down to that very bulkhead when you're talking about how much flow you can get through the sump.

What brand/style is your box? I'd imagine there would be a small chance your current box could be modified to accept a larger bulkhead - or a second one, but that's probably pretty slim.

Overall, your cheapest path is gonna be another powerhead or two.

[thrlride]

Increasing the hose wouldn't really help. Your bulkhead is the bottleneck.

[thaoctopus]

Okay, so I would need a bigger bulkhead or more PHs in the tank.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally posted by thrlride
Increasing the hose wouldn't really help. Your bulkhead is the bottleneck.

I should stop typing so much. You always manage to say the same thing in 1/10th as many words!

[thrlride]

LOL, you beat me to it though. :)

[thaoctopus]

Hahaha, I appreciate all the info, regardles of how fast!!!

So, the bulkhead would be my main problem if I was to stick with the 9.5

How 'bout a closed loop with the 9.5 external? Would it work. I keep hearing about MagDrives being ok for external and not OK. If so, Any suggestions?

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally posted by thaoctopus

How 'bout a closed loop with the 9.5 external? Would it work. I keep hearing about MagDrives being ok for external and not OK. If so, Any suggestions?

That would work fine, though then you'd need another pump to run your sump return.

[thrlride]

I'm not sure how good a magdrive is at external, never tried one. I am going to use a pair of little giants, one for my sump and the other for my closed loop.

[thaoctopus]

I guess I could use the old RIO I originally had in the sump.

Any ideas on how to setup the external Mag Drive? Size of PVC/Flex hose for the 9.5,
Should I place the inlet in the tank or in the sump?

[thrlride]

I'd avoid RIO if you can. I've heard nothing but bad things on this board about them.
I would put the inlet in the tank so you don't change the water level of the sump. The size of the PVC would ultimately depend on the size of your pump. I'd probably use 3/4" or 1" with a mag 9.5. I'd put the inlet in the tank, down to the pump then up the back of the tank to a splitter and then an outlet on each side of the tank.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Inlet in the tank as well as outlet, otherwise it's essentially another return pump.

Piping size? Whatever the inlet and outlet on the pump itself is what I'd use. It's probably 3/4.

Check out www.melevsreef.com - he has a DIY over-the-back closed loop on his site that's pretty nice.

[thrlride]

Excellent site for sump ideas and closed loop stuff.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Just as a question of curiosity and to see if I'm summing this up correctly because I have the EXACT same problem going on and felt the exact same setup would be for me. Luckily, I haven't bought my HOB overflow box yet. From tank-to sump-to tank, it should be-

Large HOB overflow box w/ large ID tube and Very Large drain hole; plumb to sump, plumb to aquarium.

Like this?

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/75424Plumbing_layout.bmp

Where is the best place to put valves and what type of valves?
Would increasing the ID of the return pipes help or hamper?

[der_wille_zur_macht]

That image is too small to really make anything out.

Basically though, you want to buy the biggest overflow you think you'll ever need, so you don't end up in this situation. As a general rule, the siphon tube (U tube) should be considerably smaller than the drain bulkhead itself to help avoid siphon loss from bubble accumulation, though most commercial units take this into account.

Valves should be on the return line, not the drain line - unless you have a specific reason to want one on the drain.

Return pumps and overflows both have "flow ratings" - but they mean totally different things. Which is, IMHO, what confuses a lot of people. The rating on a pump (for a given head loss) is the *actual* amount it'll actually flow. The rating on an overflow is the *maximum* amount it *can* flow.

So, in other words, the pump determines the flow rate through your sump, as long as it doesn't exceed the overflow's rated capacity. If it does, you get this situation - the sump runs dry and the tank overflows in minutes. So, you can have a 100 gph pump on a 600 gph overflow and you'll get 100 gph of flow. You can have a 599 gph pump on a 600 gph overflow and you'll get 599 gph. You CAN'T have a 900 gph pump on that 600 gph overflow, though.

What type of valves? Depends on what you want them for. Gate valves are goot at adjusting flow, but bad at shutting it off. Ball valves will make a positive seal to shut flow off (if you want to do maintenance and the pumps, etc are turned off) but are a bit touchy to actually adjust flow rates.

The only case you'd need a valve is if you bought a pump bigger than your overflow can handle - then you'd want something to turn the flow back a bit. Gate valves are a bit nicer for this, but ball valves will work fine and will do better at sealing the line off when you're doing mainenance, etc.

Increasing the size of the return plumbing can help reduce the head load on the pump, and will thus allow it to pump more. There's definitely a point of no return though, and luckily most manufacturers reccomend a specific size for a given pump, which eliminates the guess work.

[thaoctopus]

Cool thanks guys!
Yeah, Melev's Loop is pretty cool. I think I will go ahead with that.
Now, My tank is about 3-4ft off the ground from the bottom of the stand to the top of the tank. If I place the inlet in the tank and the returns on each side, will I lose alot of flow?

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Can you do a bit of a shelf like melev has to set the pump on? Otherwise you'd loose some flow, though probably not too much if you went with the right size pump - there's really no vertical head loss on a closed loop, just frictional losses.

To get an idea of how much flow you'd loose, use the head loss calc linked from the RC homepage, only enter it all in horizontal feet, not vertical. i.e. if it's 4 feet from the top of your tank down to where the pump would be, enter 8 feet of horizontal pipe.

[Travis L. Stevens]

I think just a better description of what each valve is best for will help the most.

Ball-controls waterflow
Gate-controls backflow?
etc
etc

sorry...I had to make that image QUICK...im at work and sneaking information when no one is looking

[Travis L. Stevens]

sorry for the delayed response above. My computer crashed and you replied so quick that I missed that you explained the different valves.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

They both do the same thing - restrict the passage through the valve. The differences in utility come from the fact that the gate valve has a few turns between closed and open. Also, the seal on a PVC gate valve typically isn't very good.

Whereas a ball valve is (typically) 1/4 of a turn (90 deg.) from fully open to fully closed - so moving it a tiny bit can make a big difference in flow.

Honestly, I use ball valves for everything in my actual plumbing, and would probably only use gate valves on sensitive stuff - like adjusting the outflow from a DIY skimmer or something.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Is there a aquarium safe pvc glue?

[thaoctopus]

Cool thanks guys.

Travis,
I use this stuff from Home Depot that was made for Aquariums. I'm not sure what its called, but its in the paint section. It'll say Aquarium on the tube.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

All PVC glue, primer, cleaner, etc is aquarium safe - you can use the same exact stuff you use for home plumbing. That's all you *should* use for solvent-welding slip PVC joints.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Sweet. I was afraid there was some expensive thing that I should get. Since I'm building my own sump, is there a "glue" that I should use there too, or will just about anything do the trick. Sorry for taking over your post almost, thaoctopus.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

What are you building the sump out of? If it's totally out of acrylic, you should use some form of acrylic solvent - Weld-on is a popular brand name. They make it watery thin for wicking into tight joints or thick for filling gaps.

If it's all glass, just use any 100% silicone that doesn't have mildew or mold inhibitors in it.

If it's a mix of the two (i.e. acrylic baffles in a glass tank) then silicone's probably your best bet, but use a lot of it and scuff the acrylic with sandpaper, as it won't stick very well.

[thaoctopus]

No worries Travis, I'm learning as well!

[Travis L. Stevens]

Is there any preferance on acrylic or glass. I was thinking acrylic actually. My LHS only carries 1/8" glass on hand, but they did have 1/4" acrylic. Are there any easy or special ways of cutting it?

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I'd just get the shop to cut it to your specs - most will do that for free or a small fee.

Are you literally going to build the whole thing from scratch or just get an empty container and partition it off? IMHO, the latter is so much easier it's an obvious decision unless you really want a scratch-built sump. You can grab a cheap glass tank from your LFS for a few bucks and just stick in some baffles - boom, you're done!

[Travis L. Stevens]

I was going to just get an aquarium at my LFS, but they are too much for me. Though building it from scratch is going to be easier? Is there a way to bend acrylic?