Anyone taking Androstenedione?

[ProdigalPoster]

Looking to jump start my lifting again with Creatine and possibly Androstenedione.

Anyone out there using this stuff?

Any doctors out there have an opinion?

feedback is appreciated!

[moggyhill]

:eek1: Cancer, pimples, impotence, but hey you will look good for awhile. Its not worth it, its not healthy, and you are too young to die

[PerryinCA]

I hope I don't offend, but that is a somewhat uninformed reponse that is typical of the stereotype and is unfortunately what all too many medical professionals preach. Continuing education points should be available for people who learn about current bodybuilding supplements.

Sean, there are some good bulletin boards for this sort of thing. Properly used, they pose little to no risk and can really help build muscle when combined with proper diet and exercise (risks are comparable to a woman on birth control or horomone replacement therapy).

Androstendione itself is not that great of a supplement, but there are many spinoff horomonal supplements that are very effective. Your typically best suited to utilize androgenic/anabolic supplements after working out consistently for a good period of time and building a strong base.

There is a lot of fanatical and uneducated people who will ridicule supplements with no clinical knowledge. The important thing is to take the time to educate yourself and weigh the benefits/risks before making a decision. If you look hard enough, you'll find that risks are minimal and side effects typically undetectable for most compounds when used at recommended dosages.

I prefer www.1fast400.com for supplemts (they also have a forum). www.bodybuilding.com is a good place for info and supplements, and www.customnutritionwarehouse.com has some less common supplements available.

Some day I might actually get motivated to drop 15 lbs and get back into the gym. :)

[moggyhill]

you do offend. the risks are not minimal and I know of very few bodybuilders or sports people that take the recommended doseage.

[rustang]

No but I use a corked bat.....

-Sammy Sofa

[moggyhill]

:beer:

[snarfe]

Originally posted by rustang
No but I use a corked bat.....

-Sammy Sofa



hehe good one...just sucks bein a cubs fan though :lol:

[crab0000]

Originally posted by moggyhill
you do offend. the risks are not minimal and I know of very few bodybuilders or sports people that take the recommended doseage.
I know of very few bodybuilders who mess with Andro. They usually get the real stuff. I used it for a while and didn't notice any side effects, but haven't had time to be in the gym in a while.
Steve

[rustang]

Here is a thought, just put the time and effort in and be a natural athelete.....

[SoonerBolt]

Its more than time and effort...its also diet. That's the biggest key and the hardest part to get for some people. I'd say creatine is as far as I'd go for a little help, but that's a long way from steriods IMHO.

[benonmsn]

i personally would take soemthing other then andro, plenty of "safer" non safe "supplements".

[Legal Reefer]

Yeah...if Arnold could do it naturally...then so can you :)

[Anemone]

Originally posted by PerryinCA
If you look hard enough, you'll find that risks are minimal and side effects typically undetectable for most compounds when used at recommended dosages.


Hey Perry,

Is that kinda like if you look hard enough, you'll find someone who will say, "Sure you can keep that tang in a 20 gallon tank. It will only grow to the size of the tank anyways..." :D

No, I don't know enough about the issue, but I noticed the similarity in argument and decided to give Perry some grief. :lol:

Kevin

[thrlride]

Alright, I was going to start a thread for this but I will ask here. I've been lifting weights for the last 4 months. I've gone up quite a bit in the weight I lift but I can't tell much in my size. I know it's only been 4 months...

What can I take the is unquestionably safe but works. I'm not trying to be Arnold, I just want to be bigger. What will help me gain muscle mass but not add to my fat mass? I'm 6'1" and 200 lbs so I don't think I am fat.

[crab0000]

Whey protein will help tremendously, but watch which one you get. Some are loaded with carbs.

[thrlride]

Any brand names? What does creatine offer?

[tonkadawg]

Originally posted by thrlride
Alright, I was going to start a thread for this but I will ask here. I've been lifting weights for the last 4 months. I've gone up quite a bit in the weight I lift but I can't tell much in my size. I know it's only been 4 months...

What can I take the is unquestionably safe but works. I'm not trying to be Arnold, I just want to be bigger. What will help me gain muscle mass but not add to my fat mass? I'm 6'1" and 200 lbs so I don't think I am fat.

I have been considering Nitric Oxide. I have never tried it, but wanted to be a little more consisent in my workouts before starting it.

[Legal Reefer]

Dianabol (breakfast of champions), Sustanon 250, Decadurabolin, Finaplix, the list goes on and on...It's all safe...Don't believe the hype :)

[tonkadawg]

creatine is another good choice - I have been very happy with it. I've used EAS phosphagain and the GNC brand - couldn't tell much difference so I stuck with the GNC

[Legal Reefer]

IMO creatine is a total waste of time...stop taking it...and bye bye gains

[thrlride]

Huh? Creatine is a waste of time. If you stop taking it then you can say bye bye gains? Can you explain?

[Legal Reefer]

It has been a long time since I stopped being a personal trainer... so my answer is a little rough...on the other hand I speak from experience...

In layman's terms, creatine helps bloat your muscles... So much of your initial gains are from water being sucked in...thus the initial five ten pound gains people rave about...then theoretically, the bloat helps your muslces lift more weight / it's easier on your joints...you train harder and then you suposedly make more permanent gains (kind of like the bloat you get from roids but less effectively)... then you stop creatine and puff.. all you are left with is the gains you theoretically made.

[benonmsn]

lol yeah righr! dianabol is the worst. deca is very safe, as is luarabolin, sus 250 is pretty safe as well. just stay away from the orals, they are the worst for you and your liver. and kidneys, and all other organs.

[Legal Reefer]

benonmsm... I was just kidding... but you pointed out the truth of the matter... there are many safe steroids... but the orals (which are hard for the body to process), the water suspensions (which are unstable), the fakes (a result of government prohibition), as well as the misinformation has really left the public uninformed and those who take them anyway -- less safe because they cannot do it under a doctor's care with proper bloodwork and have to resort to the black market with unsafe fakes and bathtub steroids

[thrlride]

So, creatine is a waste. What actually helps, diet or otherwise?

[Legal Reefer]

Diet
- at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight per day
- immediately after exercise 100 cal or so of juice or other carbs that are quickly utilized by the body
- eat protein an hour after exercise
- 6 to 8 meals a day with protein

Exercise
- work your body with core exercises -- that means if you have skinny legs - don't spend your workouts doing arm curls and butterfly chest exercises
- concentrate on squats, bench, military presses, deadlifts, stressing your core muscles
- when you do those core exercises your whole body grows because your whole body is being stressed
- if you workout hard like that - each body group only needs to be trained once a week -- otherwise overtraining -- especially when you're doing it naturally.

[thrlride]

Here's my normal schedule now. Nothing no legs yet...

Bench press
Curls
Triceps
declined situps
some row machine that works the back and triceps
Occassional 3 mile ride on exercise bike

all of these are done on Mon/Wed/Fri
Three sets of 8-10 each.

Nothing special with the diet. Usually just lunch and dinner. Not too much snacking. No suppliments.

Critique please.

[wdt2000]

Originally posted by bjdamico
It has been a long time since I stopped being a personal trainer... so my answer is a little rough...on the other hand I speak from experience...

In layman's terms, creatine helps bloat your muscles... So much of your initial gains are from water being sucked in...thus the initial five ten pound gains people rave about...then theoretically, the bloat helps your muslces lift more weight / it's easier on your joints...you train harder and then you suposedly make more permanent gains (kind of like the bloat you get from roids but less effectively)... then you stop creatine and puff.. all you are left with is the gains you theoretically made.

Thats funny!! There are countless studies that show the effectiveness of creatine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7670456&dopt=Abstract
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbinfo.php?page=Creatine

Men's Health
"Researchers at the Medical College of Wisconsin recently reviewed more than 500 studies on creatine supplementation published over the past 40 years. Their findings: Men under the age of 36 who take creatine for just 2 to 3 months may be able to boost their maximum bench press by 15 pounds and their squat by 21 pounds, on average. The bad news? Creatine's strength-boosting benefits taper off as you get older."

[benonmsn]

Originally posted by bjdamico
Diet
- at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight per day
- immediately after exercise 100 cal or so of juice or other carbs that are quickly utilized by the body
- eat protein an hour after exercise
- 6 to 8 meals a day with protein

Exercise
- work your body with core exercises -- that means if you have skinny legs - don't spend your workouts doing arm curls and butterfly chest exercises
- concentrate on squats, bench, military presses, deadlifts, stressing your core muscles
- when you do those core exercises your whole body grows because your whole body is being stressed
- if you workout hard like that - each body group only needs to be trained once a week -- otherwise overtraining -- especially when you're doing it naturally.

is 100% right. nutrition along with working out large core muscle groups is what helps u gain mass and metabolize fats. i have to eat 4000 calories a day to not LOSE wieght, thats just how i was made. so putting on weight, was next to impossible. when i jumped up to low fat 6000 calories a day it started to happen,and after 2 years i went from 6' 150 to 6' 165.. yeah 15lbs. then i figuredi wanted another 20 lbs, so i did it the easy way. 12lbs in 2 months, followed 4 months later with another 10lbs. i havnt worked out in about ay ear and i am retaining at about 180, fairly solid/cut still. just dont over dose, and make sure you eat.

[Legal Reefer]

Your Back and Legs are like a frame on which the rest of your muscles "hang." The bigger your frame gets, the bigger everything else will get. So Legs and Back should be your focus which it is not. Then you add Chest and you have three cores for working out. You can do

Day 1 -- Legs
Day 2 -- Back, Traps, and Biceps (since they are tired from working out back already)
Day 3 -- Chest, shoulders, triceps (since they are tired already)

or you can give shoulders and arms their own day or you can even work opposing groups together like

Chest / back
quads / hams
bics/ tris

everyday - calves and stomach

I wouldn't workout more than once a week each part. If you're doing it three times a week - you aren't working hard enough to get real growth.

Until you fix you're diet - don't worry about supps - they won't work since they need nutrients to get your body above and beyond

[wdt2000]

James H. Quillen College of Medicine, East Tennessee State University, Johnson City, TN, USA.

"Androstenedione, 4-androstenediol, 5-androstenediol, 19-norandrostenediol and 19-norandrostenedione are commonly referred to as "Andro" prohormones. Over the last few years, supplementation using these prohormones has been aggressively marketed to the general public. Supplement manufacturers often claim that Andro use improves serum testosterone concentrations, increases muscular strength and muscle mass, helps to reduce body fatness, enhances mood, and improves sexual performance. However, to date, most studies contradict these claims. In contrast, several studies using oral Andro related prohormones show that Andro use can abnormally elevate estrogen related hormones as well as alterations in hormonal markers (i.e., abnormal elevations in serum estrogen) thought to increase a person's risk for developing prostate or pancreatic cancers. In addition, most studies also indicate that significant declines in high-density lipoproteins occur leading to an increased cardiovascular disease risk. Thus, to date, the current research base suggests that Andro prohormone use does not support manufacturer claims. But it does suggest there should be strong concerns regarding long-term oral Andro prohormone use, especially regarding its effects on blood lipids and estrogen hormone profiles."

[Legal Reefer]

"Their findings: Men under the age of 36 who take creatine for just 2 to 3 months may be able to boost their maximum bench press by 15 pounds and their squat by 21 pounds, on average. The bad news? Creatine's strength-boosting benefits taper off as you get older.""

Beware of getting information from sites that happen to sell the stuff... :( unfortunately you cannot get good information about these supplements because they are very result oriented -- who is paying for these studies...

And you missed my point -- I acknowledge they help you gain weight and strength while you are on them....what happens when you stop taking creatine is another story....

As I said, I speak from experience -- I hold three personal training certifications and was in the biz when the creatine thing was exploding

[PerryinCA]

Originally posted by Anemone
Hey Perry,

Is that kinda like if you look hard enough, you'll find someone who will say, "Sure you can keep that tang in a 20 gallon tank. It will only grow to the size of the tank anyways..." :D

No, I don't know enough about the issue, but I noticed the similarity in argument and decided to give Perry some grief. :lol:

Kevin

All I am saying is that if you look past the media hype and directly at the clinical data (which unfortunately medical professionals do NOT spend enough time on in schooling or continuing education) all signs point these chemicals being very safe when used properly.

Tylenol kills thousands of times more people per year than any A/A steroid. Side effects are minimal in most and non-existant in knowledgeable users who utilize ancillary drugs/supplements to counter them.

Not everyone has the genetics to look the way they want naturally. I am against using any form of supplement as a fast track to get in shape, but I am for allowing people (more specifically informed adults) to overcome genetic limitations.

Our "protect you from yourself" system of medical governance is pathetic.

[Legal Reefer]

Right on

[Legal Reefer]

Can I get a discount on a maristar now? :)

[PerryinCA]

Originally posted by wdt2000
James H. Quillen College of Medicine, East Tennessee State University, Johnson City, TN, USA.

"Androstenedione, 4-androstenediol, 5-androstenediol, 19-norandrostenediol and 19-norandrostenedione are commonly referred to as "Andro" prohormones. Over the last few years, supplementation using these prohormones has been aggressively marketed to the general public. Supplement manufacturers often claim that Andro use improves serum testosterone concentrations, increases muscular strength and muscle mass, helps to reduce body fatness, enhances mood, and improves sexual performance. However, to date, most studies contradict these claims. In contrast, several studies using oral Andro related prohormones show that Andro use can abnormally elevate estrogen related hormones as well as alterations in hormonal markers (i.e., abnormal elevations in serum estrogen) thought to increase a person's risk for developing prostate or pancreatic cancers. In addition, most studies also indicate that significant declines in high-density lipoproteins occur leading to an increased cardiovascular disease risk. Thus, to date, the current research base suggests that Andro prohormone use does not support manufacturer claims. But it does suggest there should be strong concerns regarding long-term oral Andro prohormone use, especially regarding its effects on blood lipids and estrogen hormone profiles."

There are many contradicting records on medline concerning many of the above stated precursor horomones. As I mentioned originally, androstendione is not a particularly good one. All estrogenic side effects (and conversions of excess T/andro's into estrogens) are easily kept in check with aromatase inhibitors.

Again, it all goes back to being properly informed. If you take the above mentioned reference as your sole information, I can pull some studies showing Vioxx to be perfectly safe....

Things aren't always what they seem.

[PerryinCA]

Originally posted by bjdamico
Can I get a discount on a maristar now? :)

lol ;)

[Legal Reefer]

"lol"

why's that funny...who was joking?

[DrBDC]

As a Chiropractic Physician and a prior spokesperson for the ACA Anti-Steroid campaign, I think I have an informed position on this.
The risk of steroids and/or the use of natural substances to increase testosterone is not worth it. The problems from any of these is not the substance you use, but the increase in testosterone. Get it from injecting, get it from a herb, get it from boiled down pigs, it doesn't matter. The increase in testosterone will cause increased body hair, testicular shrinking and/or cancer, cardiovascular risks, and on and on and on.
It's the testosterone, not how you increase it.

[Legal Reefer]

1. Is it the testosterone that causes baldness... mmm... or is it dht found in certain roids... what about blockers?

2. What's the permanent consequence of testicular shrinking?

3. If you want to shave body hair -- how does that hurt anything?

4. Cancer / Cardio Risks -- you're talking about people who abuse this stuff in high quantities for long periods of time

[wdt2000]

The first quote is from Medical College of Wisconsin. I also speak from experince. I take creatine in cycles and never see any decrease in musle mass or strength when I stop taking creatine.

So what are you saying happens when you stop taking creatine?


Originally posted by bjdamico
"Their findings: Men under the age of 36 who take creatine for just 2 to 3 months may be able to boost their maximum bench press by 15 pounds and their squat by 21 pounds, on average. The bad news? Creatine's strength-boosting benefits taper off as you get older.""

Beware of getting information from sites that happen to sell the stuff... :( unfortunately you cannot get good information about these supplements because they are very result oriented -- who is paying for these studies...

And you missed my point -- I acknowledge they help you gain weight and strength while you are on them....what happens when you stop taking creatine is another story....

As I said, I speak from experience -- I hold three personal training certifications and was in the biz when the creatine thing was exploding

[wdt2000]

Originally posted by PerryinCA
There are many contradicting records on medline concerning many of the above stated precursor horomones. As I mentioned originally, androstendione is not a particularly good one. All estrogenic side effects (and conversions of excess T/andro's into estrogens) are easily kept in check with aromatase inhibitors.

Again, it all goes back to being properly informed. If you take the above mentioned reference as your sole information, I can pull some studies showing Vioxx to be perfectly safe....

Things aren't always what they seem.

I know nothing about these substances because I don't use them. I just happened to find that while checking my creatine informantion and thought I would post it to get the thread back on track:) Last thing I need is more horomones:D

Will

[Legal Reefer]

1. who paid for that study?

2. I need to know more about your present condition, routine, increases, cycles with creatine, etc before commenting
on your experience

[rspar]

2. What's the permanent consequence of testicular shrinking?

Honestly I'm not interested in anything that causes that.:mixed:

[DrBDC]

There is nothing wrong with taking supplementation in a broader mix, i.e. weight gain formula's. Creatine will be in most of these as well as most the others that have had thier "day in the sun."
Just don't overload any one of them. Then it's just like having a HUGE appetite.
If anyone would like a powerpoint presentation on file I gave last year, post your email and I'll email it.

[runningwolf02]

Allow people to " overcome genetic limitations"?? In most sports , the use of performance enhancing drugs is called CHEATING!!! What satisfaction is there in knowing you can lift more weight b/c you are taking drugs, regardless of their safety or efficacy?? I am a female, so maybe I don't quite understand the drive to be bigger. But I know this--I am a marathon runner who takes no drugs to "enhance" my performance..I log countless hours on the road, the track, and the treadmill for every minute I shave off my time. And that means when I run a PR, I know that I have really accomplished something. I lift weights too, and am the only adult woman I know who can do chin ups ( only 3-4 but I can do them). And again, every improvement is the result of lots of hard work. I could win a marathon by hopping on a bus and riding to the finish line ( in secret, of course) but I'd rather finish in the top quarter on my own steam than number 1 knowing I cheated. There used to be a concept called sportsmanship that really seems to be lacking these days.
Also, fwiw, if you really want to be bigger, get a hard-labor job. I know lots of extremely strong farmers.
Wolf

[benonmsn]

i dont want to get involved to much, but all the studies in the wolrd only give you a general idea. yes steriods most likely, will due serious harm if you abuse them. or you can get some nice gyno out of it if you do not know about estrogen. HOWEVER there are millions of people who have safely used them with ZERO side effects. zero. alchohol is dangerous, doesnt mean everyone getsl iver damage, so is smoking, doesnt mean everyone gets cancer. some do..

[Ishkabibble5710]

let me tell ya when i learn how to ay it (at least 5 years...)

[PerryinCA]

Who here was talking about sports? All professional sports already have rules governing use of steroids and drugs like epo which can effect fairness. noone was talking about sports though, we are talking about body building for aesthetic purposes. Wolf, you seemed to have missed the topic of discussion completely.


Some people spend a ton of time in the gym and eating the right things and are never fully satisfied with the way they look. What is wrong with allowing these people (adults) to use what they may want to increase thier quality of life? How is it any different than a woman getting breast implants because she is insecure with the way she looks? There are dangers in both, but if properly managed, they can be minimal and for most people non-existant.

To the chiropracter - I saw a special on 20/20 years ago showing how some people had been paralyzed and even killed do to back and neck alignment procedures. Should we end all chiropractics because of the unlucky or uninformed minority?

I have used many of the compounds previously listed and have never suffered from any of the said side effects. The first time I did so I was monitored by my physician and found that while serum testosterone levels went up dramatically, there was virtually no major side effects (blood pressure increased slighty, but still well under 'high' and even 'high-normal' levels). Enzymatic liver levels were steady, I got no new hair growth, no hair loss, and aside from the gaining of lean body mass, noticed no change. I was happy with the result and would do it again if I ever got to the point where I felt training had it a stale spot.

I maintain than anyone who villifies performance enhancing drugs to all informed adults doesn't fully know what they are talking about. I have spoken with a California licensed endocrinologist specializing in sports medicing that feels the same. The key is informed, and I don't believe that supplements should be takin without previous review from a knowledgeable physician - unfortunately most physicians are not up to date on current sports medicine.

[rspar]

I don't know squat about these drugs but just because you didn't have an immediate side effect doesn't really mean much. 15-20 years later you might be saying something else. It doesn't look to me like these companies have any long term studies. Pharmaceutical companies are taking things off the market that had some pretty serious long term testing done. I don't think what your getting is worth the risk, but that's just me.

When I was in High School I asked my dad to buy me a bench press and free weights when we were in a sporting goods store. He said when we get home I'll show you what to do. When we got home he pointed at 2 5gal buckets and said fill'em with dirt and carry them around the yard, and you'll be strong as an ox by end of summer. Course I looked at him like he was stupid ( he was a farm boy growing up). You know what he was right. Some years later I worked at lax huffing bags and by the end of summer I was strong as an ox.

[rspar]

Oh, now my biggest workout is walking to the frig. Gotta move it to the family room some day.

[DrBDC]

12 oz at a time. :)

[rspar]

Weakling I do 16oz sets.:dance:

[cal3v]

As for whey protein, I tried designer brand, a little too gritty for my tastes. The one I use now is Champion Nutrition pure whey protein, decent price, and the reason I take it is to supplement my diet, i try to eat around 6 meals a day, reasonably healthy ones if I can lol. The whey protein is because if I didn't take it I don't think I'd get enough protein for myself in a day. I like adding mine to milk, and they have various flavors. Strawberry is good, getting kinda sick of it now lol, and I've tried chocolate which ain't too shabby either. I do a mwf routine, chest tri's and shoulders, bi's and back, and then legs. Once a week for each region of the body is definitely enough, muscles need to recover. Usually I also try to do cardio by biking to the gym and back, basketball, etc. Been making progress, I am not sure if it's as much as other people's on different regimes but I've been seeing results both in lifting greater weight and visually muscle-wise. Finding someone to go to the gym with also helps you keep on track, push yourself, etc.

[ProdigalPoster]

I've been taking protein, its done its job for me, but now its about done.

I'm looking for something to take me a step further and protein ain't cutting it anymore.