Greenhouse hurricane resistant?

[scubadude]

Yo Bro :) I need some advice from you, if you please. Or any one for all that matters

As some of you already know I have been through 2 greenhouses already, the most recent one being destroyed by Hurricane Charley. I look at this as a perfect oppurtunity to improve my plans so back to the drawing board. Here are some of the ideas I have and Im hoping others especially ones who know about building exp. or have greenhouses or just have ideas can expand on these ideas.




Concrete sidewalls possibly? Then I can build the dirt up around the outside of the greenhouse a bunker-style if you will, I realize this will be a trade-off for light transmission.
Bows (half moon shaped framework for the ceiling) - usually they are spaced 4'-6' apart but Im thinking about spacing them closer to reinforce.
concrete footers? - I know I will have more building permit cost but as my last 2 GH I dug a hole where every post was and concreted the hole, i didnt pour a footer.
Tanks - I had glass tanks (now they are trashed) and love glass tanks but it just doesnt seem effecient for a greenhouse. I would apt to go with acrylic but its so hard to clean acrylic w/out scratching. The rubbermade tubs would be great but they are black and attract heat (i have also thought about painting them w/ a white epoxy or sealant. Another reason I liked the glass is because the sides of the tanks transmitted light.
More cross braces - These go between the Bows and add greater structural strength and I can put as many as I want between all the bows but this is more cost and also makes the cage/framework cause more shading onto the tanks


The main thing is to make the GH have less breakable stuff inside it. And cost effeciently to rebuild the things that are more prone to be damaged. I have also thought it might be better off in the long run to make a building with lots of skylights. There are alot of things that are gonna be contigent upon the money I will have to do this and It will be a work in progress. I do realize that there are alot of ppl that dont have to worry about hurricanes but I have seen a large amount of ppl building GH for the same purpose in Florida and I think we all need to re-analyze our building/layout strategies.

[dgasmd]

Rocky:

I am not Calfo nor do I ahve the experience of building greenhouses. However, my dad has a construction company and I grew up with a little orientation to building things to last.

I live in the West Palm area. After the second hurricane, I was driving through this one road that has lots and lots of greenhouses and nurseries. Almost every single greenhouse that was like the ones you had (metal structure with plastic top/sides) was torn up to pieces. The ones that were not completely torn were taken down but the frames looked like they needed repairs. It was a striking contrast to the ones that had large aluminum/steel frames and glass tops and sides. They were standing like nothing happened. I remember this distinctively since the first thing that came to my mind after I saw them was the question of how you and a guy that live near me did with their greenhouses. One of the greenhouses I saw even had plywood panels all over like regular shutters.

Now, it goes without saying that those are extremely expensive to build and I doubt a somewhat mid to large size coral aquaculture facility would make enough short term to pay it off when you can get aquacultures corals shipped to your doors so cheap these days. Then again, that is another entirely different matter than I have no knowledge about and you didn't ask about it either.

The chances of devastating hurricanes hitting FL are pretty good, so I would thing that one looking for a long term investment would be serious about a long term structure. I hope someone else with more experience and know how than me will be able to respond and help you.

As far as the tanks go, I would go with acrylic i I was you. Scratching will not be an issue at all if you are doing this for propagation purposes. If you want the tank as show also, that is another story. Then again, glass is so much cheaper that it is hard to argue with it.

[traveller7]

Thermal characteristics of acrylic may not be a good thing in the southern climates. If the building stays up, might be best to stick with glass as well.

[Anthony Calfo]

hey Rocky,

good to hear from you my friend.. very sorry for the troubles though :(

The kneewall is a fine idea and is no trouble at all re: light reduction. You already have an excess of light any given day in FL. Just use a light meter in the "shade" of a wall standing in an open field (as your GH with no other obstructions around it woudl be) to reassure yourself of light levels.

Plastic/fiberglass troughs would be a great idea here too. You could even have solid plywood covers standing aside and waiting so that if/when a hurricane came by, you could simply bolt/screw down these precut solid covers into the plastic lip of the trough. Thus... even if you lose the roof... rain will not enter the troughs.

IN fact... I wonder if this would not be the way to go if you still use a plastic covered hoop GH? Take the plastic off and keep the troughs battened down. Short of the hurricane picking up the plastic tubs... all will be fine after it blows over. The plastic sheeting for a hoop GH is easy enough to put on and take off. Heck... for optimal light penetration, you have to change it every couple of years as it is.

As to the warehouse with skylights... its a simply awful idea if you have any hope of making money. Inefficient (light) and cost-prohibitive.

glass glazing to the GH is also a poor choice (light transmission is worse than plastics designed for the purpose, and fragilty issues).

FWIW :)

Good to hear your feet are still in motion. Keep on truckin bro!

Anthony

[dgasmd]

Anthony:

I completely agree with you in the ease and cost of the structure as you propose. The only thing I see in that is lack of practicality. Let me explain. Every summer in FL we get more than a doze or two hurricanes that look like they could hit or head in this direction, but end up turning away. Having to dismantle everything and ready up for one every time may prove to be impractical in the long term. I guess you could just do it with the ones that look like it surely will hit when it is 2 days ahead, but even that could prove inpractical once you do it twice per year. It would be like you doing the same in your greenhouse in PA everytime the weather guy says there will be 4-6" of snow. I don't have a better solution either. I am just binging up this point.

[RicksReefs]

Hey Rocky, how's things goin' bro'?
i don't know if i ever showed you these shallow tubs
from aquatic ecosystems. nice n' shallow types, 8 ft. long
& reasonably priced to boot. they're what i'm planning on
getting when i get my GH up.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/3449/cid/1032

[traveller7]

Since you guys are local, you might find some benefit of going to the manufacturer of the fiberglass versions:

Make sure you the turn sound down before clicking the link ;>)

http://www.aquaculturetanks.com/index.htm

[gpajon]

Hey Rocky,
Anthony is right about the plastic. That thing becomes a sail pulling, tugging, and pushing on the structure causing it to fail. Dgasmd also makes a good point about the number of close calls we get every year and how that would create a lot of added work.
I think you have an opportunity for a new business venture here bro. You need to come up with some system that releases the plastic under extreme wind conditions. I like the idea of making plywood covers to protect the actual tanks from debris. Either way this is a major learning experience for all of us.

Price we pay for living in Paradise.

[Treeman]

Hey Rocky,
I went with 2"x4" steel posts on my GH because when you add the 2'x3' concrete around each post it has a windload of 120 mph. I don't think that the plastic would stay on but thats ok if it doesn't pull down the house.

I went with automatic side curtains and vents. No fans, as of yet. I hope I don't need them.

You need to come over and look at mine. I want your input on some things also. I need to add a couple more systems and want you to look at it.

Matt

[scubadude]

whoa Rick....that is a good price on those tubs :-)
Definately gonna have to look into those....Rick, Gpajon, or Matt do any of you guys wanna try a couple of these tubs? 4+ on these drops the price down. All good ideas rolling here

Definately need to come over there and check your gig out Matt :)

traveller,
I have checked out Dolphin Tanks aka www.aquaculturedtanks.com thanks for the heads up though.

Dgasm,
You are so on the money with the practicallity statement! If this cant be an easy one man job type deal than it will be a PIA!

Mr. Calfo
As to the warehouse with skylights... its a simply awful idea if you have any hope of making money. Inefficient (light) and cost-prohibitive.
You totally RAWK! Just need you to ground me every once in a while :D ....Im ready to build this thing like Fort Knox so forgive the over zealous charge I have

I so love the idea of the plywood over the tubs but definately want some added security for the tanks. And do totally agree that the plastic glazing on the greenhouse will provide little if any security/protection during these storms

Heres a thought. I think Rick came up with this already (in another thread)

Make the greenhouse with panels and some type of slip/groove installments of the glazing which could be replaced with plywood or some stronger panels for the hurricane season....If anyone has any ideas on this or PICTURES that would be great...I think the panels & slip/groove latches would have to be somewhat flexible because the way the GH (greenhouse) bows but this may contradict the ability for the switch out of the panels for hurricane protection?! Here again...thinking out loud

[Anthony Calfo]

a very good dialogue indeed... its fun to brainstorm!

Even more fun for me with half a brain :p

Your zeal to protect and build then next GH for the last time is well warranted andunderstood, my friend.

Antoine out for a jet plane... be chatting with y'all soon :)

[Treeman]

Hey y'all,

I agree on those tubs, they look good. I am talking to a guy down this way that may do better price wise. If not though I am in for about 12 for the next system.

[scubadude]

Originally posted by Treeman
Hey y'all,

I agree on those tubs, they look good. I am talking to a guy down this way that may do better price wise. If not though I am in for about 12 for the next system.

Let me know Matt, im good for 2 atleast...maybe more depending on the price. When you gonna be getting these?

[spawner]

scubadude

We had a greenhouse make it after Frances, in good shape, but Jeanne took it out from there. They do make some 120 mph greenhouse type structures. The best option that I can think of would be to go with a good greenhouse that is a double plastic with shade cloth, in the event of another hurricane take the cover off of it, fill everything with water and let it ride. We had little damage to the contents in greenhouse and the structure is fine, but the plastic is gone along with some of the over head lights.

[scubadude]

Thanks Andy :)

I am looking to do most of this DIY of course to save on cost. I do realize that my hoopstyle greenhouse couldnt withstand 100+ mph winds as it was here is some pics of the damage just for ppl to see what Im talking about



http://www.coralfragz.com/images/hurricane/greenhouse/a.jpg
http://www.coralfragz.com/images/hurricane/greenhouse/b.jpg
http://www.coralfragz.com/images/hurricane/greenhouse/c.jpg

I do realize that it would have been better to just take the glazing off of the greenhouse now, and I did have wind flaps that I cut in areas hoping to vent it but that apparently didnt do enough :rolleyes: I do personally believe that I could have built it more structurally sound for hurricanes but truthfully my thoughts where well we havent had one hit here in this area in over 15 yrs and im sure that after I build it the way I want it will probably outlive the next hurricane but Im not planning on taking chances on this one.

So Andy,
Do you have any pics, URLS, or schematics of the type of greenhouses you are talking about? or anyone? hehe truthfully I just want to borrow some clever architecture designs thats all
:p

[RicksReefs]

Rocky & Matt, i should be good for a couple of those tubs too :)
Rocky, here's another link to some other GH's to give you
something else to look at :D

http://www.igcusa.com/greenhouses-commercial.html

[Treeman]

It will probably be a month or two before I am ready for tanks.

Here is the GH I bought.
http://www.atlasgreenhouse.com/rtgc.html

The curtains on the side of mine I attached to thermostatic controllers that roll up and down on their own.

[Treeman]

They are sold thru BWI. I can give you the number when you want it. I talked to them about some GH's for you and Rick and Richard, But they wanted to talk to you.

[scubadude]

Yeah Matt,
I talked to atlas and BWI before I bought my GH and they where just a tad higher in price for the same thing. I went with CP heres their link

http://www.cpenterprise.com/

any way you would want to order (the tubs) right after Christmas Matt?

How bout you Rick? Hows your prospecting coming for a place to stay and hows your prop setup coming?

[grim]

I grew up in a family of contractors and construction workers, all my family is in the business. Toying around with the idea of a greenhouse on the cheap we came up with this idea. Three block walls in a U, with a sloping steel/glass front and tapered roof. The building (obviously) must be oriented for the most efficient light capture, and you'd want to avoid tanks at the extreme ends near the block. Our plans were for a much farther north (NJ) greenhouse where we would need extra measures for winter insulation.

jb

[spawner]

Wow, that is some damage. We didn't even come close to that; only thing that happened to ours in Frances was the shade cloth was destroyed, and a few holes in the double walled plastic. Your greenhouse looks a bit weaker. Jeanne only blasted the plastic off and took out the overhead lights. He had 100+mph winds on Frances for about 8 hours or so and 60-80 for about a day. Jeanne hit use with 120 winds for only a few hours. Our greenhouse was about 25K installed with plumbing and electrical, not sure how much the structure is. It is about 15 wide by 50 long or so. I could give you the name of the consulting company that installed it. I joked with him after the storm that we had some good advertising for him.

FWIW, we had another green house with a canvas cover that got blasted as well, only lost the cover, all 100+ glass tanks in side were mostly ok. Only a few were broken.

For some reason I can't post pictures today. I'll email them to you if you want. Just PM me.

You get what you pay for.

[dgasmd]

Andy:

Woa!!! I can't wait to come by and check out your greenhouse. I am so close to you it is insane I haven't seen it yet.

[spawner]

Ha,

There nothing to see anymore, only a big pile of rubble and fema is removing it all today (well it will take 3-4 days to get the pile picked up). We got hammered. That green house was one of the few things not totally distoryed.

[Nanook]

Holy cow, Rocky. Sorry to see your greenhouse destruction!!! That is just awful.

Dave:(

[myakkareef]

Rocky, remember when you get ready to start rebuilding to contact me..I would be more then willing to provide you with free labor...I can dig trenches or plumb with the best of them..Glad to see you are in the planning stages again...
By the way we missed you at Brian G's...Laterr Bro...Scotty

[scubadude]

Thanks Nook :)

And Thanks Scott :)
Im working on my own personal 75g right now...I want to get that back the way I want it b4 I start working on the greenhouse but Im thinking after the first of the new year I will start playing around w/ the GH

[Treeman]

Rocky, Let me know when you are ready for the tubs. Rick let me know if you want any. I will be ready in a few weeks to order. Anybody else local can get in on this.

[Peccavi18]

I didn't read this whole post, but I skimmed over the first page, I am a design student and I recently had to do a Structure report on Geodesic Domes. They are considered one of the safest structures in high wind and hurricane situations, because of the rounded shape allowing wind to blow around like a wing, and their ability to spread the force to the ground. There are quite few different designs for mounting windows, and screens. There are tons of pictures and build up guides, on the internet. And I saw a program that even allows you to put in the diameter and it gives you the blueprints for the frame. -That is just a though for your consideration. Ryan