Work Shops, Garages, and Tools? [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community Archives

BeanAnimal

08/18/2004, 01:50 PM

Opinions will vary... sometimes religiously...

Any TS with a good fence will do for small projects. Stay away from the $150 specials. They will be nothing but a headache. JET and GRIZZLY make nice saws at a fair price. You can also get a CRAFTSMAN saw if it has a good fence. Look in the local trader papers and pick up an older craftsman or similar and throw on an Excailbur fence.. you will have a cabinent quality saw for a fraction of the price.

If you do not intend on buying a jointer, (as opposed to biscuit joiner) then you will need to get a high quality blade for the TS. I recomend the forest WWII. About $125 but worht the price.

THe dewalt biscuit joiner continues to be rated top of the heap. The exception being that the porter cable can accept a smaller blade for face frame biscuits (cabinent making)

Dont spend a furtune on expensive bar clamps buy a half dozen or so PONY pipe clamps and keep an assortment of different lengths of black pipe, threaded on one end. These clamps are proven and cost effective. Grab a few quick grip clamps to use as work hold downs and quick glueing clamps. THey are NOT suitable for critical clamping. They flex to much and do not stay aquare. Get a google of those springy clothespin like clamps... they are great for glueing up small stuff. C clamps are expensive... but needed when you gotta get a lot of pressure on something.

A dewalt, or PC plunge router is the way to go. YOu can get good deals on the fix/plunge combo base routers. I have a plunge ONLY and it suits all of my needs... though it is a bit heavy for just trimming laminate and the like. Get the larger motor models, this is a great help in keeping the cutter moving.... ESP when using the device as a SHAPER on a table. Also get one with the larger collet, so you can use larger cutters. DOn't skimp on cutters. BUy a 50 piece starter set from one of the reputable manufacturers (online or sears, woodcraft etc) Whiteside makes a few nice sets. You will spend a few hundred dollars, but the cutters will last forever in a small shop if taken care of.

A corded drill is also nie to have...one with a large chuck. People laugh at me... but I use it as much as the cordless drills I own (4 dewalts 1 bosch and 1 hilti 38 volt)

An random orbital sander (dewalt or makita or PC) is a must have. Don't skimp on sandpaper either. Cheap sand paper only costs you more in the long run.

Paint brushes (sherwin williams sureline, or purdee) are very good brushes and should last you a lifetime. Get a few and you will be happy.

A brad nailer and finish nailer are also MUST HAVES when it comes to convenience and ease of assembly. Lowes has a PC kit on sale with a small pancake compressor right now. Stick with the PC air nailers... they are an industry standard (in your price range)

You will need a few combination squares and tee-squares of varying sizes. Again don't skimp... solid and true count here.

A few varying lengths of aluminum to use a straight edge are also imprtant. I keep a few 2 inch wide sizes from 4 feet to 9 feet. Anything less than that the L square can be used.

Get a few boxes of drywall screws of varying lengths. Just break down and buy the 25lb boxes. You can never have enough drywall screws!

You should be several different styles of deadblow hammers and rubber mallets. You will find yourself using this daily. I have rubber, brass, plastic and shot filled. They all get used qite a bit.

And lastly... A decent drill press will save you a million headaches. Get what you can afford.. play with it to make sure the table is true and easy to adjust.

Bean

Rikko

08/18/2004, 02:11 PM

I was waiting for Bean to say drill press. :)
Table saw and drill press are where I hang out most of the time. For fine work or when you lack the hardware needed, a Dremel is extremely versatile for cutting, filing, and polishing.
I would suggest hitting the store and grabbing a box of almost every screw size they have. I have about 25 boxes in the garage of various lengths and head types and I *still* end up having to make do with something that isn't exactly what I wanted (I could buy them if I managed to start working before 9pm :D)
Cordless drill is a treat, but Bean's right about a corded drill. Sometimes you hit a stubborn bit of wood and you need that extra power. Case in point was a 2" holesaw I was using last night. My poor 14.4V Ryobi cordless just couldn't go any more, as the inside of the wood turned out to be a little damp. Corded beast just ripped through it. For the low price, a half decent corded drill is a sound investment (Check Makita or Ryobi or even Black & Decker - B&D are fairly cheap tools but we've got a few of them that are well over 20 years old and still ticking).

BeanAnimal

08/18/2004, 02:27 PM

worth mentioning about corded drills....

get an armbreaker if you can afford it. The $25 sale specials wont twist a woodscew let alone a hole saw. Milwakee makes good drills. Not familar with the dewalt... i am ure it is good as is the makita. Again, get the high torque ones with larger chcucks.

ReefWaters

08/18/2004, 02:49 PM

Thanks guys!
Lots of good info BeanAnimal.

Keep it coming!

As for Table Saws. When you read that a saw has a max ripping capacity of X", is this the absolute max it will go or is there a way to modify the saw to rip wider and just as accurately? Also, what is a general rip width to aim for?

Im looking to get a decent saw right now but not a lifer. I will afford myself a life time quality saw in a few years, after I figure out exactly how much Im going to use it, what my preferences are, etc., etc.

Is this saw (http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_SessionID=@@@@1114819236.1092858158@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccecadcmfldjfkecehgcemgdffmdflf.0&vertical=TOOL&pid=00923560000&subcat=Table+Saws) worth the money or should I keep looking?

Thanks again for all of this and any future info.

Reefwaters

BumpinTJ24

08/18/2004, 04:47 PM

taggin along.

I'm going to start making a tank and custom cabinet and i'm tired of going to my grandpa's to use his table saw so i'm going to get my own. Right now I'm down to three saws, the new Delta X5 3HP left tilt w/ Beisymeyer fence and 50" ext. table, The Jet Xacta 3HP w/ ext. table, or the Grizzly 3HP saw. Any suggestions? I wanna get the best and most powerful because I do alot of woodworking as it is. I'm also getting a new 1 3/4HP PC Router for $50 bucks that I plan on mounting underneath my ext. table so I can route edges and have more space for routing than a small router table provides.

BeanAnimal

08/18/2004, 04:48 PM

Been trhough this a few times.... but it's always worth a few words.

The rip capacity is limited by the distance the fence can travel away from the blade. On most cheaper saws, this is between 18 and 30 inches. You can "rip" larger pieces by using a homemade SLED that runs in the miter slot (worked for me and others for years) OR the better soltuin is to purchase an aftermarket fence with the rip capacity you need and then some.

The aftermarket fence gains you several things. Firstly more accurate alignment. You simply lock it down and cut... no more checking square and bumping it around then relocking...and bumping some more.

You also gain the extra rip capacity and the ability to use T-SLOT accesories like "board buddies" and other neat things.

THe aftermarket fence is the sinlge best item you could ever purchase for a saw. I have the Excalibur by SOmmerville Designs. It rocks. THe beisemeyer fence is touted by many. THey were purchased by delta and I think the quality is not there anymore. Vega and others also make fences. Incra makes a nice fence... but it is expensive and delicate. Nice if all you do is cabinent work. THe jet Xacta fence is pretty decent too.

NExt item you want to purchase for your saw is a LINK BELT to replace the V-BELT. These come with machined pulleys and eleminate almost all vibration. YOU WANT A BELT DRIVE SAW!! None of those direct drive saws... they are garbage.

Spend a few bucks on a miter slot dial indicator (Or borrow) and line up the saws trunion with the miter slot. This will make cutting boards feel like cutting butter....

THe fence on that sears saw is garbage. Looks pretty but is about useless. YOu want a contractors saw with cast iron wings and a fairly large motor. You may be able to find a used contractors saw in your area.... or spend a bit more and get the JET or GRIZZLY saws. The DELTA contractor II saw was not rated that bad.

In any respect, the factory fences on MOST sub $1000 saw plain out suck. If you buy a $200 used saw and put $400 in parts on it (fence, blade, linkbelt, mobile base).. you will have a $1500 saw.

Bean

BeanAnimal

08/18/2004, 04:52 PM

Bumpin,

All of the saws are decent saws. The Delta has a good fence on it. THe GRizzly is decent but you would want to add a better fence. And the Jet saw is nice and has a decent fence on it.

I myself would sell the beisy fence and get an Excalibur (can ya tell I like mine!)

Bean

Crusty Old Shellback

08/18/2004, 05:02 PM

Good info here so I'll only add a little. You can also check out
www.woodmagazine.com for some more info. Since your using a small garage, put everything on locking casters so you can move them around and use the space best you can. Been doing it for years and it works great. ALL of my tools, except for my 200lb, 50 year old delta rockwell floor drill press is mounted on it's own stand with casters. I'm talking tablesaw/router combo, band saw, jointer, planer, etc. Also look at the new Grizzly contractor saw, I've got the older model and it came with the machined pulleys, link belt and aftermarket fence. Couldn't be happier with it. Another thing to think about is build you a cabinet to mount the contractors saw on and you can make your own extension table to also mount your router in. There is a good one in the wood magazine, I just finnisehd building it and modified it some so that I now have about a 72" ripping capacity. Dry wall screws work are indespensabile. For clamps, don't forget the band clamps for making boxes.

Fat Man

08/18/2004, 07:53 PM

Most has been covered. I have a personal rule;

"Never leave a hardware store with out a pair of clamps."

You will never have enough clamps in the proper size.

BeanAnimal

08/18/2004, 07:55 PM

Good point... none of the mobile bases offered what I wanted. I built a box with 4" locking polyurethane casters. The box has a chute and fitting for the dust collector.... The box extends the length of my aftermarket fence (78" fence). My extension table is made out of MDF and laminated with masonite. The extension table is proped up at the ends by all-thread and bolts so that it could be adjustect pefrectly flat with the cast saw table.

I can provide pictures if needed. The only regret I have is using 4 swivel casters...instead of just 2 swivels and 2 fixed.... it's a bear to shove back into the shed by myself, as my driveway is not level.

Bean

Crusty Old Shellback

08/18/2004, 10:00 PM

Bean, I found some casters that lock in every 90 degrees of rotation. i usually lock the two one one end parallel and leave the other two swivel. once I set the table, I just lock each wheel in a different direction and then the table dosent move. here is a link to some of the things I built for my shop.
http://community.webshots.com/album/176808421MeJbMd
The table saw cabinet is 104 inches long at the fence rail. I took the wing off of the right and mounted it to the left wing to give some more table space on the left of the blade. I can get 6 feet on teh right of the blade w/ the router fence removed.
The wallcabinet is from a book I had but I modified it some. Each one is 4 feet long so with both of them open, I get a 8 ft long work bench. I built the top w/ 3/4 " particle board and then added in another 3/4" insert that I can replace when it gets worn out.
good luck reefwaters. If you have any questions, ask away.

hardreef

08/19/2004, 01:05 AM

Ill just say ditto on the tablesaws and fences since its been stated so many times already.

Clamps is your friend HAHA. Can never have enough clamps.

Id skip a cordless drill and just go for the corded. theres always a plug around or an extention cord in the worst case.

Drill press is definatly a must IMO

I find my router table indispensible as well.

my advice is dont go out and try and setup a shop all at once. Buy things as you need when projects arise. Isntead of spending 200 on a tool that sits there for a year and not having the money for a router you need sucks. IT also lets you use the tools you have, realize how many projects you do and the quality and money you want to spend on the tools you still need to buy.

Something noone mentioned was a good solid large as possible level workbench. Slap a nice quality vice on that sucker while your at at.

DEFINATLY look at used stuff. Intead of spending 600 on a new saw spend 600 on a used saw that is of much better quality.

Buy quality bits, blades, etc they are like tires on a car. Cant do anything with a ferrari when you have bicylice tires on them

sportbiker29

08/19/2004, 03:49 AM

Make sure your garage has a least 50 tape measures, some how you can never remember where you set it and is missing when you need it. OK, maybe only 4 or 5.

-I have a shop that is my garage and by far the test tool in my garage is my Powermatic Table Saw with router table in it. It's made by Jet and has a great fence on it.

-After the table saw I would say: Routers(PC), compound mitre saw, clamps, brad nailer, and sanders. Go with a corded drill and give yourself a good amout of workbench space, it bets working on your knees on the garage floor! I have a million more must haves for the garage but nothing the other reefers haven't already said. So good luck and have fun!

ReefWaters

08/19/2004, 09:39 AM

Wow...for every questions answered, another one pops up.

Here we go.

1. BeanAnimal - Is there a website where I can find Excalibur fences? Also, do they fit on any saw or only specific brands, styles, etc.?

I found a few table saws in the local paper but have not called about them yet. One ad just says "Craftsman Table Saw 1 HP $100 OBO." What should I ask the guy to make sure this is a decent saw? Its about a 40 minute ride to see it and I don't want to take the trip if I can avoid it.

2. hardreef - I agree with you on needing a good workbench. What do you guys suggest; build one or buy one? There seems to be a million options here no matter which way you go. I think I would want very simple and sturdy. If I build one, what is the best material for the top? Would heavy duty locking casters keep a bench steady enough to work on? What height should it be? Does the height need to be adjustable?

3. blown63chevy - thanks for the pics. Always helpful to see something directly. Anyone else have any pics???

I agree with buying as I go along and discover I need something. I do want to go ahead and get a saw though. No point in trying to build ANYTHING without at least a saw.

Thanks again guys for all of your help. It has been invaluable.

Please keep it coming! :rollface:

Reefwaters

Crusty Old Shellback

08/19/2004, 10:16 AM

Reefwaters, Find out how old the saw is. Most of the older craftsman saws were made by emerson who now makes rigid because of a falling out w/ sears. Stay away from the bench top direct drive models. Been there, done that.:rolleyes: Not worth the money and very limited on what you can do. A good contractor saw will do just fine. Check out some of the manufactures web sites for info before you go buying. Wood magazine does tool reviews often so try looking there. Grizzly, Jet and Delta seem to be the main players w/ pretty much the same features. The only hard part of seeing a Grizzly is you have to be near one of their stores (there's only 3 in the nation) or you can contact them and they will refer you to one of their customers in your area. That's what i did and was able to talk to someone first hand who used their stuff. No salesman trying to make some money. One of the best things that I like is to try out the tool before you buy it. Also you can look into some of the woodworking shows that coem up in your area. You can usually get a good deal on stuff there as well. Here is a link to their home page to find out more info.
http://www.thewoodworkingshows.com/
As far as benches and stuff goes, I like to build my own. That way you can design in waht YOU want plus you get the satification of saying you built it.
Good luck and the only way to find out stuff is to ask.

BeanAnimal

08/19/2004, 01:08 PM

http://www.excalibur-tools.com/products/tt45.htm?product=tt45

It wil basically fit any saw that has a front and rear thickness that is square to the table top.

Look at the website and by all means give them a call.. The nicest company I have EVER dealth with. They guys answer questions and will help with what ever you need. They even sent me a bunch of free parts one time... even after I offered to pay. EVEN AFTER telling them I purchased the item USED on eBay and needed the missing parts!

Get a 3hp belt drive saw with cast table and wings.

Bean
Bean

saltydoc

08/19/2004, 06:24 PM

Well this is very strange. I've been following this thread as I have many of the same questions as I try to get more into DIY'ing.

For the last 3 years, I have often wondered what is there that is special about Williamsport, PA, as I am from California, and often miss the sunny skies and countless opportunities. Strangely enough, there is a GRIZZLEY STORE here! I've never been inside. And I had no idea until now that there were only 3 in the country. That IS special.

Maybe I'll have to go check out their table saws!

javajaws

08/19/2004, 07:21 PM

Don't forget:

A Kreg jig for drilling pocket holes (a must!)

clamps (Bessey K-body)

Jointer/Planer if you like to use hardwood alot (Delta/Jet/Grizzly, DeWalt makes a nice portable planer)

clamps

Random orbit sander (Porter Cable)

clamps

Jig saw (Bosch)

more clamps

Air compressor for your finish nailer, brad nailer, stapler

even more clamps

HVLP spray system

it starts with "c"...

Couple of handplanes (start with block plane), www.lienielsen.com

come on, can't you guess by now?

Router table w/kick butt fence (www.incra.com)

give me a "c", give me a "l", ...

Router raiser for your router table

Couple routers (PC/Dewalt)

Dust collector

Wet grinder (Tormek)

Drum Sander

Spindle sander

Belt sander

hollow chisel mortiser

mini-mill

mini-lathe
.
.
.

The list could go on forever (just don't tell my wife).

I'd suggest starting by getting whatever you need for the project at hand (if you don't know - just post about what you'd like to build and ask what you'd need). Thats the best (and most affordable) way to gather a collection of tools.

If you're going to be working with hardwood and/or acrylic sheets, I'd suggest a jointer to go along with the table saw.

If you're gonna be drilling holes in acrylic, get a drill press.

If you're into building cabinets & carcases get the biscuit joiner, kreg jig, table saw, random orbit sander, etc.

What do YOU want to build today?

I like Fat Man's approach: never leave a hardware store without a pair of clamps. I did this when I was getting my Bessey clamps. It's the only affordable approach (and SWMBO doesn't notice as much). I also follow this approach for fishing tackle...works great. You'll get a large collection in no time.

I swear, the only hobby more expensive than reefkeeping is woodworking.

BTW, the whole "DIY" thing is a slippery slope: once you start down that road you can never turn back. Just don't ever try to justify it to yourself (or your wife) on cost alone (because that checkbook just won't balance). I see it more as a hobby thing and don't even think about it.

ReefWaters

08/19/2004, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by javajaws
I swear, the only hobby more expensive than reefkeeping is woodworking.

Have you ever taken a look at Tournament Billfishing?

Now thats a hobby for people with too much money.

ReefWaters

08/19/2004, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by javajaws
I'd suggest starting by getting whatever you need for the project at hand (if you don't know - just post about what you'd like to build and ask what you'd need). Thats the best (and most affordable) way to gather a collection of tools.

Okay, I'll jump on this ride.

Project # 1: 30 Gallon Reef System
Stand
Canopy
DIY Skimmer (Maybe)
DIY Calcium Reactor (Maybe)
Small acrylic sump/fuge

Major Items I need ----->

Table Saw
Drill
Clamps :thumbsup: ]
Work bench
Im guessing some more clamps
Sander
Biscuit Joiner
?.....

Oh, and a raise!

What am I missing??????

BeanAnimal

08/19/2004, 09:43 PM

Not to open the "fence" can of worms.....

I do not like the incra fence. It does work great. I just feel it is bulky, delicate and overkill for most DIYers and even modest woodworkers. It's one of those things that looks much cooler than it is. I have used it, so my comments are first hand. My Xcal takes a beating and is dead onm every time, as is the beisemeyer I used to use. The incra just seemd to be kinda finicky..

That said I am sure others would trade the wife in for one.

Bean

Crusty Old Shellback

08/19/2004, 11:55 PM

Bean. I have to agree with you on that one. i only use mine for doing work on my router table. It works great there for repeatability and the fancy joints. I've got a shop fox fence for the saw part. it works great and I like the fact that it locks both front and rear.
Saltydoc, i envey you. All I can do is look at their website and dream. then after i place an order, it takes a while before I get my tools. Love them though. Got their table saw and 6" jointer. They wrok great and cost less even with the shipping. Plus, wood magazine has rated most of their tools up in the top.

headshrink

08/20/2004, 12:18 AM

Several people have mentioned a dust collector... for the $$ conscious, can we use a wet/dry vac hooked up to tools by hoses?

BeanAnimal

08/20/2004, 08:40 AM

Without spending hours explaining..

NO a shop vac and a dust collector are two different things.

A shop vac moves a small amount of air under high pressure. A dust collector moves a LARGE amount of air under LOW pressure.

A shop vac will suck up some local dust, but will leave most of it behind. It is nice for keeping the tool and workpiece kinda cleaned up.

A dust collector drwaw large amounts of air in and "scrubs" it.

A lesson in DUST:

If you can see it, your lungs can't. In other words, the dust you see floating in the air is not that bad. It is the dust you can't see, that will hurt you.

So get a fog machine, or a hunk of dry ice and place it on your tool. Hook up the shop vac and then the dust collector.... see which one removes the "fine particles" from your breathing space (Or prevents them from getting there)

THat said, most cheap dust collectors, are just that...CHEAP and not very effective. Still better than nothing.

THe cheaper DCs are not much more than a good shop vac. THey are are a LOT LOT LOT quiter.

Anybody who wants volumes of details on this subject, plase PM me, or we can start a new thread specific to this subject.

Bean

javajaws

08/20/2004, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Not to open the "fence" can of worms.....

I do not like the incra fence. It does work great. I just feel it is bulky, delicate and overkill for most DIYers and even modest woodworkers. It's one of those things that looks much cooler than it is. I have used it, so my comments are first hand. My Xcal takes a beating and is dead onm every time, as is the beisemeyer I used to use. The incra just seemd to be kinda finicky..

That said I am sure others would trade the wife in for one.

Bean

I was only suggesting the Incra router fence - not their table saw fence. I own/use the router fence and can vouch for it's accuracy and usefullness. As for the table saw - I agree: something like "bullet proof". I use a Unifence, but the Biese and others are good too.

BTW, If you want to make teeth in an overflow it doesn't get easier than using a fence like the incra (unless you make/buy a jig).

javajaws

08/20/2004, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by ReefWaters
Have you ever taken a look at Tournament Billfishing?

Now thats a hobby for people with too much money.

I've seen some of them on TV. They also have really nice looking women to go with their really nice looking boats!

javajaws

08/20/2004, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by ReefWaters
Okay, I'll jump on this ride.

Project # 1: 30 Gallon Reef System
Stand
Canopy
DIY Skimmer (Maybe)
DIY Calcium Reactor (Maybe)
Small acrylic sump/fuge

Major Items I need ----->

Table Saw
Drill
Clamps :thumbsup: ]
Work bench
Im guessing some more clamps
Sander
Biscuit Joiner
?.....

Oh, and a raise!

What am I missing??????

I'd suggest (again) the Kreg jig if you're going to be building the stand and hood out of plywood (and also if you are going to build a "face frame" on the front of the stand). Using screws and biscuits together can keep you from having to clamp things together (and not have to wait on the glue to dry).

Don't forget a good (but cheap) woodworking square (not a framing square). Also get a roller stand to support wood on your table saw.

Depending on the style you are into, if you end up wanting to use european style cup hinges on your doors a drill press is highly suggested.

For your type of projects, you can probably do without a true woodworker's workbench. I'd suggest some cheap home depot cabinets with a laminate countertop. You'll also need a glueup area. I like to use a cheaply make stand that doubles as a table saw outfeed table.

To get the best possible edges on acrylic, try a 6" jointer and/or one of those special acrylic blades.

For wood on your table saw, I ditto the earlier recommendation for a Forrest WWII - first and last blade you'll ever need. Yes, you can make do with something cheaper - but If you've got a $100 blowing a hole in your pocket...

Crusty Old Shellback

08/20/2004, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by ReefWaters
Okay, I'll jump on this ride.

Project # 1: 30 Gallon Reef System
Stand
Canopy
DIY Skimmer (Maybe)
DIY Calcium Reactor (Maybe)
Small acrylic sump/fuge

Major Items I need ----->

Table Saw
Drill
Clamps :thumbsup: ]
Work bench
Im guessing some more clamps
Sander
Biscuit Joiner
?.....

Oh, and a raise!

What am I missing??????

With what tools you have listed here, you can accomplish a lot, you just have to learn how to use them better. A router would also help. Other tools just make the job easier, ie pocket hole jig, jointer, planer, brad nailer, etc. A small hand held planer and some chisels, keep the razor sharp, will do wonders to tweak things in. Don't forget your basic hand tools, hammer, screwdrivers, etc. Of course all of this is going to require some manual labor on your part. An old door on some saw horses makes a good cheap work bench. And you can easily store it out of the way when needed. Also you can look into some old kitchen cabinets w/ a good solid top for a work bench. they work great and give you storage underneath.
I'm a bit different in that I almost exclusively use glue and bisckets or some form of joint for assembly. I only use nails or screws when I can't find a good joint to assemble my project with. That's just me though. Tounge & grove and dovetail joints work wonders.

ReefWaters

08/20/2004, 10:13 AM

javajaws
Not trying to get off subject ... but
If your talking about the Tournament in Panama City, the entry fee was 20K per boat. Not to mention the cheapest boat I saw was about $1.3 million. Add $1500 to $2500 per rod/reel combo X 10 per boat. 15K to 30K for tackle. 900 to 1500 gallons of diesel per boat @ $1.60/gallon (low ball estimate) per day of fishing = ~ $2400 per trip.
The kicker - 3rd place in any of these tournaments rarely covers expenses.
Just my 2 cents on expensive hobbies.

Now back to saws :D

For a good starter saw for someone with very little experience, how is this Grizzly (http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2004/013.cfm?)?
I think I could mannage this one. Would I really need to replace the fence or any other components in the near future?
Im still looking for a used saw as well.

javajaws

08/20/2004, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by ReefWaters
Now back to saws :D

For a good starter saw for someone with very little experience, how is this Grizzly (http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2004/013.cfm?)?
I think I could mannage this one. Would I really need to replace the fence or any other components in the near future?
Im still looking for a used saw as well.

I'd almost recommend you go with a good portable table saw instead of going with a contractor saw. I think you'll get a better product, and it'll be easier to get out of your way (since you said you have a very small garage). Something like a Bosch 4000 ($499 and no shipping from Amazon).

There are some compromises going with a portable (mainly capacity & weight), but none of your immediate projects seem very large in nature so I don't think you'll have any issues. I've seen some very nice setups even where people take a portable and build it into a cabinet for outfeed support, etc.

Crusty Old Shellback

08/20/2004, 10:38 AM

Not a bad choice but if you can afford to go up one level, get the Z model w/ cast iron wings. I've got the older version of the Z model w/ the old shop fox fence and love it. I've seen other saws w/ stamped steel wings and have know people who had them, they all wish they would have spent the extra money for the cast wings. Just better all the way around.

Crusty Old Shellback

08/20/2004, 10:47 AM

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you javajaws, I've owned a bench top and they just don't cut it. Worst purchaes I ever made. And they don't last long. I even tried the build it into a bench route and it still came nowhere near as usefull as my contractor saw. You can get casters of the contractor stand to move it around where you need to. They also sell mobile stands OR you can build your own like I did.

ReefWaters

08/20/2004, 10:50 AM

Javajaws - Is this the Kreg Jig (http://www.kregtool.com/iwwida.pvx?;products?comp=ktc) your talking about?
If so, where would this be better than a biscuit or other joint?

Anyone - What exactly does a 6" Jointer do. Does it just create a smoother, higher quality (more accurate) connection between two pieces of wood? Does a high quality table saw not do this?

I feel like these are stupid questions I could figure out on my own but I would really appreciate a brief explination of these two tools.

I know, I know, there are no stupid questions, only stupid people.:twitch:

blown63chevy - Are you talking about This Guy? (http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2004/014.cfm?) Thanks for the suggestion. Ill check it out. Im having a terrible time with this saw decision. I thought deciding the dimensions of my tank was hard...this takes the cake. Will someone just decide for me? :rolleyes:

Crusty Old Shellback

08/20/2004, 10:59 AM

That's the one. Damn good saw IMHO and other people think so too. Jointers, they make wood flat. When they are set up right, it's used to make the face side of the wood flat before running it thru a thickness planner. They are also used to give you a perfect 90 between the face and the edge. You would do this BEFORE you run the wood thru the table saw to deminsion it. With that said, most wood that you buy from HD has been run thru a mill and is already done. If you go to a wood speciality store to get your wood, most of it has been planned and then had what they call a straight line cut on one edge. You would then take that board home and run it thru the jointer before you run it thru the Saw. Also some people like to cut their wood just a bit wider, then run the cut edge thru the jointer. It gives a super smooth surface that dosen't need sanding when done. A good saw blade like the WWII will do the same thing IF your saw is aligned right.
Oh speaking of alinging tools, get a dial indicator and a book on aligning your tools. A day spent doing alingments after assembly will pay MAJOR dividends in the long run on how your tools do their job.

Crusty Old Shellback

08/20/2004, 11:02 AM

Reefwaters, I just looked at the saw again and noticed that it says 220. Don't know if they changed thigs. Ask them, but I beleive it can be wired for 110 or 220. I know mine is.

javajaws

08/20/2004, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by ReefWaters
Javajaws - Is this the Kreg Jig (http://www.kregtool.com/iwwida.pvx?;products?comp=ktc) your talking about?
If so, where would this be better than a biscuit or other joint?

Anyone - What exactly does a 6" Jointer do. Does it just create a smoother, higher quality (more accurate) connection between two pieces of wood? Does a high quality table saw not do this?

I feel like these are stupid questions I could figure out on my own but I would really appreciate a brief explination of these two tools.

I know, I know, there are no stupid questions, only stupid people.:twitch:

Your link to the Kreg wasn't working for me - but the domain is right. You can get these at Lowe's by the way. I use the "rocket".

I like to use pocket hole screws in conjunction with biscuits. The biscuits hold the 2 pieces aligned, and the screws hold the two pieces together. Not all joints can/should be screwed however (especially when both sides of the wood are visible and you don't want the screws to show.

As for the saw...like in reefing most of your decisions are easier when money isn't a question. An entry level cabinet saw would be the better option than anything mentioned so far, but then you're talking $800-900 dollars. I still think given your light usage and space limitations a portable is enough. I wouldn't recommend it to you if it's something you are going to use week after week, year after year - but for occasional project use I think it's a good choice. Pick whatever you want though, I'm just giving you some info - not trying to convice you. A contractor saw can certainly get the job done as well - just be sure to get that mobile base.

As for the planer, I'll disagree with blown63chevy slightly. Even a Forrest blade won't give you the best edge all the time:

1) The wood can burn even when the saw is aligned correctly(typically with maple and exotic hardwoods with high suger content)
2) Ripping wood can release tension in the wood and the result is a board this is no longer straight. Not much of a problem with shorter lengths of wood (< 4-5 ft or so). Bigger problem with longer boards.

Whether or not you need one really depends on what you are making your projects out of. Ripped plywood typically doesn't need to be jointed. Softwoods typically don't either. Most hardwoods would be better off jointed. You can substitute a handplane and sanding though in alot of cases.

If you're into acrylic cutting, you again may want to consider a planer to get a better glue edge (unless you buy one of those fancy acrylic blades).

Crusty Old Shellback

08/20/2004, 12:54 PM

javajaws, # 1 I'll have to agree with. I've cut a lot of purpleheart and no matter what I did, there still seemed to be some burning. With a good sharp blade and good alingment thou, the majority of woods we use will come out fine. For acrylic, a good high tooth count carbon blade will work fine. One like you would also use on plywood. Also I don't think you would want to try and joint plywood because of the alternating grains in the layers of wood.
There are several ways to put a finished edge on acrylic, most of them include filing, sanding and polishing. Lots of manual labor. There is a way that's called flame polish, but you have to know what your doing or you'll melt the acrylic.

javajaws

08/20/2004, 01:07 PM

Don't forget the router! A good router (Porter-Cable, Bosch, and DeWalt all make some good ones) can be used to accomplish many things: decorative edges, rail&stile joinery, dado cutting, dovetails, lock miter joints, and even edge jointing (with a router table and proper fence).

ReefWaters

08/20/2004, 01:07 PM

From what I can tell, the Delta 36-680 (http://www.deltawoodworking.com/index.asp?e=4435&t=t&p=4921) and the Grizzly G0444Z (http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?ItemNumber=G0444Z) are basically the same saw.

I think I can get the Delta from Amazon for $599 w/ no shipping and the Grizzly for around $603. It looks like the Grizzly might have some hidden charges though.

Does anyone notice any significant differences between these two saws? They both have cast iron tables and wings. Which one has a better fence?

And in case anyone is interested. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=57124&item=3834224085&rd=1)

ReefWaters

08/20/2004, 01:15 PM

Oh Yeah, can I use these two saws as my router table as well or do they not have router mounts?

Updated Tool List: (What I need Immediately)

Table Saw
Router
Drill
Clamps
Work bench
Sander(s)
Biscuit Joiner
Measuring Tools (Square, Tape, Etc.)

Crusty Old Shellback

08/20/2004, 01:20 PM

If you have 220 3 phase, then go for the gusto :D . Either saw will work fine. They are basically the same except the z has a 2 horse motor. The Z model used to come with a link belt but i could not find anything about it in the add. Both fences are basically teh same. It looks like grizzly changed their miter gauge from what they used to have witch was the best factory one in the bussiness. Which ever saw you get, try and pick up a link belt and precission pulleys with it. Helps cut down a lot on vibration. There are no hidded cost on the Grizzly that I've ever seen. ;)
If you can swing it and have the room, get the rails for a 50" cut, you'll thank me later. :p Both are good saws and come from reputable companies. I think you'll be happy with either one.:smokin:

Crusty Old Shellback

08/20/2004, 01:22 PM

You can get a extension wing that will mount a router in it. Or get the 50" rails and build your own extension w/ router insert.

ReefWaters

08/23/2004, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by blown63chevy
You can get a extension wing that will mount a router in it. Or get the 50" rails and build your own extension w/ router insert.

Ive tried to find an extension wing with the router mount for the Grizzly and Delta saws but have had no luck. Does anyone know exactly where to find these? Or is this not the best way to do it anyway?

When you say "build your own extension," do you basically mean a table at the same height as the table saw which is movable and uses the TS fence as a guide?

Do most people have a seperate router table or is your router somehow connected to your table saw?

If a router table is suggested, what am I looking for? Ive seen them from $25 (obviously not what I want) and up.

Again, Im trying not to spend an arm and a leg on this stuff right now. I just want some decent, basic, tools that I can get started with to find out if I even want to stick with the hobby. Im fairly young and have plenty of time to build a high quality shop if thats what I decide to do. In the mean time, I just want to get some stuff to play around with and learn off of. Build some simple fish tank stuff and maybe a coffee table and TV stand. If I love building these things, I can always upgrade. If not, Im not out that much money. I am still strongly looking at the Delta 36-680 and the Grizzly G0444Z saws though. I feel that these are something I will always have a use for and these saws should last a lifetime if I take care of them.

Thanks again for everyone's advice and please add to it if you like.

Crusty Old Shellback

08/23/2004, 06:08 PM

For your money, i think your best bet is to build your own extension wing and install your router in it. Take a look at some of the wood working websites and you'll find some to get an idea. basically, get the longer rails and bount a solid table between them. Mount a pair of legs at the end to support them if the extended rails don't come with any (mine did). take a look here and maybe you can get an idea.
http://community.webshots.com/album/176808421MeJbMd
Good luck.

ReefWaters

08/23/2004, 10:54 PM

blown63chevy - Thanks again for the pics

What model is that Grizzly saw?
Im assuming that the fence rails are aftermarket?
How long are they?
Did you build that tool chest also?

Crusty Old Shellback

08/24/2004, 09:32 AM

The Grizzly is the old contractor Z model. I beleive it was a 1022 but not sure on the numbers. The fence came w/ the saw and used 1 1/2 angle iron for rails front and back. It is the old shop fox fence. I just went out and boughts some longer angle iron when I built this stand so that they would reach the full length. Also if you notice, I took the right extension wing off and moved it over to the left side to give me a bigger table area. The rails now measure 104" and I have about 72" from saw blade to the fence at max distance. Yea, I built the tool box as well. Actually built it out of an old display stand I found in the dumpster. I modified an old set of plans that I had to make it fit what I wanted. It's also on wheels but I can tip it back and remove the plate from underneath that the wheels are mounted on and it will then sit flush on the ground and not move.
I tend to build everything that I can because I can usually do it better and for less money. Plus I get the satification of saying "I built it". I've built a lot of our furniture in our house as well as all of my aquarium stands and hoods. I'm currently working on a coffee table and a fireplace suround w/ mantel.

BeanAnimal

08/24/2004, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by javajaws
I was only suggesting the Incra router fence - not their table saw fence. I own/use the router fence and can vouch for it's accuracy and usefullness.

Ahh yes... the incra ROUTER fence is great (as is their miter gauge) I have a shaper and wish the incra fit on it!

Bean

BeanAnimal

08/24/2004, 10:11 AM

another note here..... nobody has 220 3 phase in their home (or small shop) for that matter. It is way to expensive and 3 phase motors cost more anyway. You may see what is called "wild leg 3 phase or addapahse 3 phase. Not true 3 phase BUT derived from 2 phase power. If you get a 3 phase motor, you could use an addaphase to get pseudo 3 phase power. It's dirty but it kinda works. Bassically you run an alternator off the 2 phase power and create a 3rd hot leg.

In any case... it's easier to stick with 220 volt dual phase or 120 volt single phase equipment... that is what most of us have available.

Bean

BeanAnimal

08/24/2004, 10:17 AM

If you setup your saw correctly and use a good blade (forest) you can get by without a jointer.

A lesson in woodworking...

A jointer is designed for

1) truing the edges of cut stock
AND
2) Surfacing the faces of wider wood.

A SURFACE PLANER is not used for truing the faces of boards.. it is merely used for thickness adjustment of the wood. If a board is cupped going into the planner.. it will come out cupped. Simple point that most folks do not understand (even many "woodworkers")

Once the board is planned, it needs to be runn accross a jointer to remove any cupping. A thickness sander can be used to do both thickness and surfacing.

In any case a jointer is a nice tool to have... but you can get by without one for quite a while. When you do buy one, dont get a cheap 4" 1/4 Hp aluminum fence junker! Get a 6" or more.... get it with a big solid fence and LONG LONG LONG infeed and outfeed tables.
Bean
Bean

Crusty Old Shellback

08/24/2004, 10:34 AM

Bean is right on here. I've gone YEARS with just a TS, router and small drill press. I've built a lot of quality stuff with just these few tools. Over the years, mostly in the last few years, I started to aquire more tools as I could afford them. A Incra router fence and router lift, 6" jointer, 13" planner and so on. It makes the work a lot easier but if you don't have a lot of money to invest, you can accomplish a lot with a good TS and blade and a little hard work.

BeanAnimal

08/24/2004, 11:55 AM

seems i liek typing my name twice in a row....do that a lot ya know.... either I like myself... or it's just become a habbit because she yells my name tow or 3 times in a row... esp when directing comments towards my never finished projects...

Bean
beaN

Crusty Old Shellback

08/24/2004, 12:07 PM

LMAO.
Funny how that happens.

ReefWaters

08/24/2004, 04:00 PM

BeanAnimal and blown63chevy...

Again, thanks for all the help.
From what Ive learned from this thread (and I'm also tyring to find out as much as I can through websites and freind's books) I defininatly think I can live with just a TS, Router, and Drill Press for a while. My first couple of projects are pretty small and should give me some good practice. My father has a cheap (very cheap :( ) drill press that I might play with (on scrap wood) for a while and if I get really hard up, I know a guy with a full (but old and messy) woodworking shop with a planer, jointer, bandsaws, etc., etc. that I know he would let me use in small intervals.

Again, thanks for all of the help guys, and if you think of anything else, please post away.

Reefwaters

BeanAnimal

08/24/2004, 06:44 PM

a cheap drill press will do everything you want it to. MOre expensive models offer more power (larger cutters and hole saws). They will run buffing wheels and mortising attachmensts etc. The more expensive models also have less bearing run out. In other words the bit (really the chuck and mandrel) deflects less to the side when it is under load. A mor expensive unit will also have a better smoother jacobs chuck. Myself... I got a harbor freight special and put a new chuck on it. Does everything I need it to.

THe table on an expensive press will be sturdier, easier to move and lock. The cheapy models are a pain in the *** in that respect. Still quite livable thought. Get yourself a machinest vice (x y axis moves) and bolt it to the table. You will use it most of the time.
Bean

Crusty Old Shellback

08/24/2004, 07:09 PM

YEp, I did the same thing for years, harbor Freight bench top drill press. The mervyn's of the cheap tool world. But hey, most of their tools have a life time garentuee on them. Their just not that accurate. You don't have to start with all of the expensive, fancy tools, just a good, acurate tablesaw to start with. I bet Bean will back me up on this, you buy new tools a little at a time, saving your money for the better ones. That's unless you got a BIG pocket full of money burning holes in your pocket. I think it's taken me the better part of 10 years to acquier the quality tools that I have now.

BeanAnimal

08/24/2004, 07:21 PM

yup...spend your cash on the tablesaw, fence and blade. IF your cuts are true to begin with then you are light years ahead. A garbage saw makes every step of the project that much harder.

I just got all my 1/2 acrylic cut on a cnc saw.... need to get the shaper fired up (purchesed used) and machine all my edges before glueing. Now to go buy a $100 cutter :(

Bean

javajaws

08/24/2004, 10:41 PM

After you get your basic tools, you might also consider getting a compound miter saw. I'd say it's the number 2 "cutting" saw I use just behind the table saw. As a kicker, you'll be able to cut all the crown molding and chair railing you could ever want (or afford)!

Crusty Old Shellback

08/25/2004, 10:47 PM

Reefwaters, Just got the newest issue of wood magazine and they talk about teh Grizzly G0444 and the Z model. here's what they said in a nut shell. The stamped steel wings on the G0444 were hard to align and keep aligned. You also get a less powerful motor on the 0444. They did say that truthfully, the G0444 is no better or worse than some $600 saws. They had nothing but good things to say about the Z model. They rated the G0444 with 3 out of 5 stars and the Z model with 4. Just thought I'd pass this info along in case you haven't made up your mind yet.
Ray

2hi4u2c

08/25/2004, 11:07 PM

And once again, if you can, save up for a sliding compound miter. You may not always use the full cutting copacity of a slider, but when you don't have it, you will miss it.
Alan

ReefWaters

08/26/2004, 12:20 PM

blown63chevy... I haven't decided anything yet. I am actually still ripping out all the old rotten shelving from my garage. I just had it paved about a month ago. It used to have a dirt floor and no electricity. It looks like there is a fair amount of rot I now have to deal with that I just found yesterday. Just the siding, not anything structural.
As for the saw, thanks for the heads up. Again, I'm not sure what I'm going to do but it may very well be the Grizzly Z.

2hi4u2c... I have used a compound miter saw a good bit and would love to get one. Its a very versatile tool. blown63chevy says that there's nothing wrong with a Harbor Freight drill press so I figure Ill ask about their miter saws by Chicago Electric.

They have a 10" Compound (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=90891)
and a 12" Compound (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=42818)

Does anyone have an opinion on these. Are they at all worth the money?