Red bug/Lugols dip question....

[RyanH]

I have a clarifying question. Is the recommended dip 5ml per gallon or per liter? Thanks.

Ryan

[EricHugo]

gallon - I'd take the fragment out of the dip every minute, swhish it strongly in a bowl of seawater, and examine it carefully. The Lugol's at that strength is strong, and you want to dip as short a period as you can. Generally, most of the copepods will swim off within seconds and then die at the bottom of the dip container, and others won't, turning black within 20-30 seconds and dying while still attached to the coral. A few, amazingly, have hung on for several minutes, but no need to dip that long if they are all dead in one minute. Even really weakened corals will tolerate the dip for that long. I wouldn't go over five minutes.

[RyanH]

Ahhhh. Well, that explains the problems I had with the dip. Your original post, in a thread I started, stated that it was 5ml per liter. I'm hoping people that read the original thread get this update before they have the same results as I did. My 5ml/liter for 3-5 minutes dip was brutal on the corals.

[EricHugo]

Maybe I did say liter, now that I think about it. I'll have to go back and check. If that's what I put in the thread, that's what we used. it was a 1600ml container. Brutal how? Mucus? Bleaching? Death?

[RyanH]

I was reading a thread in another forum (not RC) and you had mentioned the 1 gallon figure. In your RC thread, it was 1 liter, and that is the volume I used for my corals. I think 1600ml is 1.6 liters or a bit under 1/2 gallon. I hadn't seen the 1600ml figure before today.

It was quite brutal. Severe mucus for all (approx. 30 frags and small colonies) that were dipped. At just under the 5 minute mark I had several frags bleach and die. Most of the of the corals have had anywhere from 10% to 80% of the tissue bleach and die. Some of the corals are starting to recover. The pattern of tissue death is random, so it's hard to frag the corals. I'm just letting them be and hoping for the best. A couple have started to regrow tissue over the dead area, so I'm hoping things will get better.

I have a blue tort frag, for example, that had 2 main branches, and an offshoot from one of the branches. This coral is in real bad shape. The 1/2" around the base is alive, one of the tips is alive and one is dead, and the tissue is randomly alive on the parts between. Almost impossible to frag, so I'm hoping that it will recover on it's own.

I dipped my corals in 3 primary batches, a few days apart. The first batch got a 4-5 mintue bath, the second and third got shorter baths. The short baths were less damaging, but still more than I bargained for. The worst part is that the red bugs came back. Probably survived the shorter baths...?

Anyway, for the benefit of others, I just want to get a clarification on the proper dosage for this treatment. Thanks.

Ryan

[RyanH]

Eric,

Any updates on the volume of water for the Lugol's dip? Thanks.

Ryan

[EricHugo]

It was per liter. So you said you had corals bleach and die at just under the five minute mark - you mean, some time after replacing them in the tank?

I think a lot of the information on what we did was actually in Randy's Chemistry Forum.

We did have some severe reaction, esepcially to the 10ml/liter with awful looking mucus secretion and bleaching, but all but a few frags even survived that and this was in numerous species of Acropora with various degrees of copepod infestation and various states of health from almost normal looking to severely parasitized. The five ml dose at 2-3 minutes seemed to be about the best solution. Like I mentioned, it helps to have good lighting and a lens to examine the corals after the dip and some swishing in fresh seawater to make sure they are all gone. You may be able to get away with vey short dips, and then an exam the next day to make sure none were missed and after the coral has "calmed down" will ensure all is well.

In regard to Interceptor, we have continued using it as well in test tanks, and it also works though takes longer. The corals tolerate it much better, but contrary to some reports it does kill worms and amphipods and other crustaceans. So, again I am hesitant to think it is a good systemic treatment for tanks unless this sort of result is acceptable. As a quarantine treatment, though, it works fine since corals can be isolated leaving the other fauna alone.

I have just ordered a saline injectable version of a stronger drug with a similar mechanism to Interceptor after consulting with some vets and parasitologists. This would make the drug dosage more dependable than the so-so solubility of Interceptor with its binding agents. I am also going to do an LD50 on corals and bugs with Interceptor.

[davejnz]

funny you should mention that it kills worms,etc..I just quarrintined 2 Acropora frags attached to LR using the Interceptor method,After 8 hours,I removed the coral frags and shook them off,all kinds of bristleworms and other
critters came floating out dead

[fussoverthis]

Along the same lines as several threads I'd like to ask a question that I have not seen yet. Perhaps I've missed it.

I have four acropora frags in my main tank. I removed the frags for five days to a quarantine tank to eliminate any red bugs in the main tank. There are no other acros in the main tank. I then dipped the acro frags in lugols at 5ml per liter of water for five minutes. After the dip, I placed them in water from the main tank to remove most of the lugols solution, swished them around and placed them back in the main tank.

Here is my question: I did not take into consideration the dead frags that are mixed in with the sand bed in my main tank. There is at least one dead acro frag. Would the red bugs survive in the main tank without live acro flesh to feed upon? I wish I had thought to remove dead frags, but I am not sure that would have been possible. I have no idea how many there are. I purchased the sand from an existing tank and he just left frags that did not make it in the sand.

Thanks in advance,
Melissa

[gtrestoration]

Eric,

I am still fighting the Montipora eating Nunibranch and after reading this thread and the reports of "worms" being killed do you think this 5ml per L might work for the nudibranch?
I've tried Lugols dips in the past with no luck but never at this strength.

Steve-U

[EricHugo]

You should contact Mitch Carl at the Omaha Zoo. He has had pretty good luck with treating various nudibranchs, but honestly I might be tempted to try Interceptor for these.

[EricHugo]

and the reason is that it would take a lot of Lugo's to get a good size colony, and for either treatment I would be unsure of the effects on eggs.

[Scott luck]

I heat to be the one to give you all this information, but you are doing nothing but stressing your corals my diping them in the Lugol's dip. It dosen't kill the bugs it only makes most of them release for the coral. The bugs are also in the rocks that the corals are on. When you move the corals some of the bugs go into hiding in the rocks. I diped several corals and left the bug in the dip for about 5 hours adding 10 drops of Lugol's every 30min. never killing the bug.

[EricHugo]

Hey Scott:

First of all, try using your spell checker and try a grammar dictionary.

Second, you might try reading the appropriate posts as to the life cycle of the bugs, and the treatment protocol I posted using Lugol's. Then, perhaps, you might have different results.

Third, the next time you post like this in my forum, I'll just delete your post.

[fussoverthis]

Eric,
I don't know if you saw my post above. I read that you have been busy, but was just curious to hear your take on it. So far the frags have been back in the main display for a week and I have not seen any red bugs on them. I know that doesn't mean there are no survivors. It looks as though all the frags are recovering from the dip and beginning to color back up.

Thanks,
Melissa

[hwynboy]

Hey Eric great seeing you again at MACNA....I have the dreaded red bugs in my tank. A few months ago I did the Lugols dip you mentioned and everything went well...I killed all the red bugs on my acros. But they came back. Have you had any similar experiences with others? Thanks.

Rich