Questions on Sand Beds

[parkerdt]

Dr. Ron,

I have read your link on DSBs and the articles I could find in this forum about live sand. I have several questions...

Currently, my main display tank is a 26 gallon bow front. I had 40 lbs of the "sugar crystal" size aragonite in it. This tank crashed - fish sideways, etc, so I evac's everyone to my med tank, and decided to restart the 26. Fortunately everyone survived and seems OK.

When I went to clean out the 26, I decided to stir the sand to try and determine it's suitability for re-use. The amount of "black crud" pollution was visually overwhelming, and it didn't smell all that great, either. This tank is only approximately 3 months old, and I had thought I was carrying a fairly light load - all the fish are quite small - Ocellaris Clown, Green Chromis, Pyjama Cardinal and Royal Gramma. About a half-dozen red-legged hermits, a half-dozen Blue legged hermits, one peppermint shrimp, and one small emerald crab. 4 Astro snails, 2 Margurita snails. I use a fluval 304 for filtration, running carbon, Nitrate sponge, and the fluval bio-media. About 35 lbs of live rock.

Can this sand be saved? If so, how do I clean it? Currently I have it in a large trashcan under water with a powerhead. Since it wasn't cheap, I'd like to reuse it if possible, but it was pretty nasty. Your article recommends "recharge packages" of sand-dwelling critters; can you recommend a source for these?

Like so many others, I started this hobby from a freshwater background where 26 gals was a pretty large tank, and I have quickly learned that such is not the case in saltwater. I'm installing a 120 gal later this month. Could you provide me with an idea of poundage for live sand for this tank? 2 lbs per gallon? And a source for LIVE SAND vs the so-called live sand?

thanks
Dave

[Masoch]

A 26 gallon probably doesn't have enough open sand to operate a functional DSB (YMMV).

I think your biggest probably, however, is in your nutrient export. You don't have much (no skimmer, no refugium, possibly no live rock from your post). Do a search for "nutrient export" (search button is up top near the right) for lots of info. Inadequate nutrient export is a source of an awful lot of grief in the SW world.

To compare, I have fewer fish in a 20 gallon (2 ocellaris clowns + royal gramma) in a system that's coming up on 2 years with lots of export (big skimmer, refugium + macro), and I regularly vacuum the sand to get rid of junk (not enough surface area for critters to do the cleaning for me). And many people think I have a crazily high bio-load without enough export.

You might also want to search for "nitrate factory" to get some info on why bio media in a cannister filter isn't nomrally done in a SW tank. Live rock / sand beds / skimmers and biomass export are what folks in the SW world use for nitrogen processing and nutrient export.

HTH, and good luck!

[parkerdt]

Thanks,

I have 35 lbs of live rock in that 26-gal.

I have read profusely on cannister filters being nitrate sponges,
and I do 10% water changes weekly. Nitrates are usually at 20 ppm and typically 0.05 ammonia and 0 nitrites. I do have a problem maintaining pH.

I have already spec'd a large wet/dry and a skimmer for my new
120 and have room for a fuge in the future; my question is more
along the lines of how to set this up for DSB rather than how to fix the 26 - that is going to become a goldfish tank.

Dave

[rshimek]

Originally posted by parkerdt

Hi Dave,

Currently, my main display tank is a 26 gallon bow front.

This tank is too small for a sand bed to be functional. Many of the necessary sand bed animals tend to avoid edges and hard surfaces under the sand. This causes a small zone of reduced life around the edges of a tank. In a small tank, these edges are proportionally much more of the sand area/volume and there just isn't enough space in the bed for the appropriate organisms to set up persistant populations.

The amount of "black crud" pollution was visually overwhelming, and it didn't smell all that great, either.

This is indicative of the lack of appropriate animals, probably caused by the edge effects. Assuming, of course, you added some detritivore kits, etc., initially.

About a half-dozen red-legged hermits, a half-dozen Blue legged hermits, one peppermint shrimp, and one small emerald crab.

Additionally, all of these animals will eat sand bed animals if they can.

Can this sand be saved?

I wouldn't bother. For such a small system, I would use some other alternative means of biofiltration.

[romunov]

I was wondering when would be 'ideal' time to put the detritivore kit in? I'm thinking after a month-ish, when the tank is cycled?

[rshimek]

Hi,

It depends a lot on the load in the tank. If there is a low and a small decomposition event (= cycling), then it can be added relatively soon. Probably, the best bet is to monitor the system and add it when the ammonia and nitrite concentrations become undectectable.

[RayGS]

I made a similar question on newbies forum...
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=409201

I'm starting a 31 Gal. (120 L.) mini reef 40" x 12" x 16" (100 x 30 x 40 cm.) and i wonder what can i do best for substrate...
1st option is 0.6 inches (1.5 cm.) of coralite sand or life sand.
2nd option is 4 inches (10 cm.) DSB of coralite sand and a bit of life sand.
What do you think is better option of both? i'm really newbie in this hobby.
Thanks in advance.



What do you think 'bout this?

[parkerdt]

Thanks Dr Ron,

I will dump the sand and start fresh in the 120. The only reason I re-started the 26 was to have some flexibility in case I run into problems in my med tank and need to move critters again.

Please revisit my first post if you would. I am seeking sources for the LIVE SAND you speak of, and detrivore kits. I take it that you are recommending no crabs (hermits, emeralds, etc) for the new tank. Is a 48" 120 gal suitable for a DSB, or should I be looking for another filtration method? If so, what might you recommend?

thanks again,
Dave

[rshimek]

Originally posted by RayGS

Hi,

What do you think 'bout this?

Your tank is marginal for a DSB. You can use whatever you want for a substrate, but maintenance of a DSB in such a small system will be difficult. It won't be impossible, but it will involve you needing to be careful to ensure that the life in the sand is thriving.

[DonJasper]

Originally posted by parkerdt
I take it that you are recommending no crabs (hermits, emeralds, etc) for the new tank.

Yea he loves peppermint shrimp too. ;)

[rshimek]

Hi,

Don, [thanks]

[parkerdt]

A 120 is marginal for a DSB? I guess I will look for another avenue, then.

Unless of couse, I should just give up saltwater if I can't house a larger tank?

Sorry, but you folks are turning me off to this hobby. I'm new, but I am trying to do the best I can, while I learn. It seems you all are snickering at me.

Rather than do that, I would appreciate some helpful advice on setting up my tank, as opposed to Ritz cracker talk about my shrimp.

Sorry to have bothered you all.

sheesh
Dave

[Hartdude]

Dave -- Check you PMs!

[NicoleC]

Originally posted by parkerdt
A 120 is marginal for a DSB? I guess I will look for another avenue, then.

Unless of couse, I should just give up saltwater if I can't house a larger tank?

Sorry, but you folks are turning me off to this hobby. I'm new, but I am trying to do the best I can, while I learn. It seems you all are snickering at me.

Dave, there are many opinions in this hobby; as many as there are people in this hobby. Listen to 'em all, but take everything with a grain of salt.

Anyway, Ron was quoting RayGS who said he had a 120 LITER (31g) tank.

Lists of detrivore kit sources is a FAQ -- maybe we ought to make a sticky thread for it?
www.ipsf.com
www.inlandaquatics.com
www.floridapets.com
www.billsreef.com
www.floridacollector.com

[rshimek]

Hi Dave,

As Nicole has pointed you, you should read the posts more carefully.

[parkerdt]

Sorry for misreading - didn't expect that the thread would be "hijacked". :-)

Since I enjoy keeping the hermits, Emeralds and shrimp, seems that DSB is no for me in any case.

thanks,
Dave

[RayGS]

Thanks a lot for replys, I think i'm gonna run my reef only berlin system, starting with 20 Kg. (44 pounds) of live rock (i'll add 11 more ponds -5 Kg.-), an acquamedic turboflotor skimmer, 13,5 gal. sump, half inch high of aragonite sand and powerhead, lights, etc.... I'll post all the stage in a day or two ;)
See ya.
PS. Sorry for my english, i'm trying to get it better, thanks.

[Hartdude]

Your English is better than some people could do who are from America!!!:rolleyes: :)

[romunov]

Originally posted by Hartdude
Your English is better than some people could do who are from America!!!:rolleyes: :)

You can says that again. :lol:

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by parkerdt
Sorry for misreading - didn't expect that the thread would be "hijacked". :-)

Since I enjoy keeping the hermits, Emeralds and shrimp, seems that DSB is no for me in any case.


Dave, it depends on what you are looking for in a tank. There are other successful methods ... and given all the limitations of a sandbed many are happy and better off without one.

I'd try the General Reef Discussion or New to the Hobby for more varied opinion.