Help with Janitors for my new 100!

[Playdope]

I have a 100 gallon tank with 140-150 lbs of rock and about 115 lbs. of sand. I know I want the following specimens in my tank as a janitor crew, but I have no idea how many of each to get. Will you all give me your recommendations and/or disput the ammount of each I should put in.

Nassarius Snails
Mexican Turbo Snails
Turbo Astrea Snails
Scarlet Reef Hermits
Fighting Conches
Brittle Stars


So far I know I want this many of the following:

(2) Scarlet/Blood Cleaner shrimp
(1) Coral Banded Shrimp

Many thanks for your input,
Jon

[Bomber]

New 100gal tank.

I would put 100-150 astreas and 300 ceriths. I don't like to let algae get the upper hand. ;)

[Playdope]

Holy crap thats a lot - i read something about astreas not being able to flip themselves back over if they turn over???

[Clarkii Clowns]

The question is what exactly are you trying to clean up?

A nice mix of

Nassarius Snails x 40
Mexican Turbo Snails x 40
Turbo Astrea Snails x 50
Scarlet Reef Hermits x 30 ( supply lots of empty shells )
Fighting Conches x 2
Brittle Stars x4


I have read recently the suggested sand bed area for one Conch but I can remember of hand what it was, I think 2 should b e sufficient.

[Playdope]

What am I trying to clean up .... hmmmmmm...... I guess anything that I don't want in the tank. Its a new tank, and I am going to be buying the crew as soon as I start seeing some algae. I just dont know how many of each to get.

And... Clarkii Clowns - aren't Mexican Turbo Snails huge?? I don't know if I want 40 plunkers all over the tank :) I think I'd rather have more smaller less visible guys, and only a few of those.

But I'm really not sure... the first 2 responses seem to be so different from one another. I am hoping all of the members here could come to some kind of a common agreement as to what a good ammount of each is too keep algae in check. I would also like get only those that are compatible with one another - hense the reason I avoided the blue leg hermits.. i hear they will be aggressive if hungry enough.

Jon

[Bomber]

Jon

What you're going to be concerned with in a new tank is algae, especially hair algae. You need to concentrate your clean up crew on active algae eaters.
You should never be over feeding your tank, so you shouldn't need critters that require meaty foods in the beginning. That would eliminate the nassarius, brittle stars, etc.

Which brings you back to astrea and cerith. Astrea are the best hair algae eaters we've ever tested. Cerith are very small, but they love to eat film algae and astrea poop.

[Playdope]

So 450 snails isn't too much for a 100 gal??? lol

I mean that adds up to $450 at Saltwaterfish.com!

Jon

[JENnKerry]

I would go with blue legged hermits and zebra dwarf hermits. One per gallon of water. Snails I would go with turbos, about 50. Also nassarious and cerith snails, about 50 - 100. Thats just me. I would even throw in a sally lightfoot crab. Best crab in my opinion.

[Bomber]

Astrea are about 3/4 tp 1"
Ceriths are barely 3/4" and very thin. They will probably spend most of their time working your sand bed and you won't even see them. That's their job. ;) If it was mine, I'd add a lot more than that.

Two completely different things. One supports the other very well.

[Playdope]

Bomber - is it normal people spend like 450 bucks on janitors!?

Jon

[Clarkii Clowns]

A great little algae eater is the Strombus Maculatus Snails,

Very hungry little fellows

[RamPuppy]

turbos are great at what they do, but can turn into bulldozers, IMHO, nothing beats a Trochus snail for grazing power in a small package, and they can flip them selves easily (actually very cool to watch)

I also would go with either dwarf zebra hermits or blue legs instead of scarlets, and would nix the brittle stars and get some mini-stars, simply find someone who has them in their tank and get a culture. Mini-stars have not of the 'questionable' habbits (suspicion of predating on sleeping fish and so on) have no larval stage, and reproduce prolifically, providing natural food for your corals in addition to being good detrivours.

Now, my tank is all indo-pacifc as far as macro life goes, but the microfauna/infauna (zoo plankton and so on, is anyones guess) A good live sand culture that has Amphipods and Copepods in it will also assist your tank in 'cleanup' capacity by eating excess nutrients, and muching micro-algae forms... again, easy and cheap through live sand from a buddy. I got some sand from the great sand swap here a few months ago, didn't seem like anything special when i got it, but now i have mini-stars, spaghetti worms, and more bristle worms than I ever thought I'd see in my tank, all beneficial.

you might be able to get b y with fewer nassarius if you got a larger species, like the super tongans, (mine are huge!) and I believe the reproduce in the reef, is money is a problem, my advice would be to find your sand sifters and stirrers in species that easily pro-create in the reef.

Also, something you might consider, is some GARF.ORG Grunge, it will get you most of the micro-life Just described, plus some beneficial snail species as well.

Also, I wouldn't add everything you want in one fell swoop, your tank is new, go gradual.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Playdope
Bomber - is it normal people spend like 450 bucks on janitors!?

Jon

No, most people shop around and get them a lot cheaper than that.
But a lot of people will spend more than that on other things and then complain about hair algae later.

[JENnKerry]

Playdope, I don't know about $450 but sometimes you have to spend a little upgrading your critters.

[Playdope]

I dont have a problem with getting that many snails... I guess a large concern I had was making sure I could feed that many of them...... I mean lets suppose my water conditions are pretty good, and I don't get a lot of algae.

What about Astrea if they turn over, could they flip themselves over?

Jon

[Bomber]

You know, on a new tank your water conditions can be perfect - and you still get hair algae. Depending on how much "life" is on those rocks and how much of it dies off, the bacterial detritus produced can load your system in phosphates right off the bat. Bacterial detritus = phosphates = hair algae.
I doubt very seriously if you'll starve any of the critters.

If you're using fine sand, astreas will have a problem righting themselves (nothing to grab on to). Take a stick and every few days flip the upside down ones over.

[Playdope]

Bomber -

Should I get any less of the Astreas or Ceriths if I also plan on getting the following:

2 fighting conches
2 cleaner shrimp
1 coral banded shrimp
2 pepperment shrimp
20-40 scarlet reef hermits

My main concern is the fighting conches, because I hear just two of those will do a hell of a job cleaning the sandbed.

Jon

[sdbeazley]

Astraes can right them selves if the substrate isn`t really sugary in subsistance. Here is a cheap place for snails and such http://bellsouthpwp.net/i/t/ituarteg/

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Playdope
Bomber -

Should I get any less of the Astreas or Ceriths if I also plan on getting the following:

2 fighting conches
2 cleaner shrimp
1 coral banded shrimp
2 pepperment shrimp
20-40 scarlet reef hermits

My main concern is the fighting conches, because I hear just two of those will do a hell of a job cleaning the sandbed.

Jon

Honest, I would stick to the astreas and ceriths for now. Let the tank come around on it's own, then order or get the other things after the tank is better established. I've seen plenty of conch and ceriths, ceriths will out do conchs on a sand bed.

Add some cukes to that down the road too. ;)

[Playdope]

I've got a sugarfine sandbed :(

Thanks for the link! How are they so much cheaper there?? Are they the same size specimens? Have you ordered from them before?

[Playdope]

Bomber - could I put the snails in the tank now? The tank is only 4 days old, but like you said, i dont want algae to get the best of me. : )

Jon

[sdbeazley]

I hav`nt ordered from them but know they are cheap and have good service. There was a recent post in vendor feedback about them and how they ordered like 400 astraes and they all lived plus he gave extras.

[Playdope]

Also - if I could put things in now ... could I add some Scarlet hermits as well ... the link above says they eat diatoms and algae, which may also be good (plus i love the way they look) :)

Jon

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Playdope
Bomber - could I put the snails in the tank now? The tank is only 4 days old, but like you said, i dont want algae to get the best of me. : )

Jon

4 days old! :eek2:

I wouldn't even have the lights on right now, much less be worried about algae. :)

How is your cycle? Have you even had a ammonia or nitrite spike? yet??

[Playdope]

Bomber -

I added rock from an established tank, and I transported the rock in buckets of tankwater, so I doubt there was much die off - but I'm sure there will still be some sort of cycle.

Here are my test results of the past 3 days:

DAY 1

Ammonia <0.6 ppm
Nitrite < 0.15 ppm
Nitrate 0
pH 7.93 ppm

DAY 2

Alkalinity 11.0-11.5 dKH
pH 7.98 ppm

DAY 3

Ammonia <0.6 ppm
Nitrite 0
Nitrate <10 ppm
pH 8.10 ppm

[Bomber]

Assuming your test kit is accurate, you're having little mini-cycles in the tank. See how your ammonia is remaining constant and the nitrite and nitrates are going up and down.

Wait until the tank settles down and you get consistent reading for a week or so. Also if that's new sand, or even disturbed old sand, you need to wait on the bacteria in the sand to sort it all out too. They need to get in the right layers and start functioning.

You might be ready in two weeks. +/- That gives you time to get your research down on critters (who, what, when, and where) and get a order together.

[Playdope]

Sounds good. Is it okay to leave the lights on about two hours everyday to make sure the coralline doesn't bleach out?

What do you think about this for a janitor order in about 2 weeks:

150 Astrea
300 Ceriths
20 Scarlet Reef Hermits :)

Jon

[Bomber]

I let rocks sit in the dark. If you have enough light for coralline, you have enough light for hair algae. I've never lost any coralline doing it that way.

I would skip the scarlets for now and probably add a 1/2 doz cukes. You need critters that will harvest hair algae for you and move that detritus around that's going to come out of your rocks.

After you've had those for a month or so and you see the tank getting stable, then add the scarlets and shrimp.

[jgreen1025]

How about an urchin? I've heard they're better than snails for algae, although I think they're also pretty sensitive to water conditions.

[Playdope]

Bomber -

I'll keep the lights off... I'm in a small apt., so the kitchen light which is right next to the tank is often on. Should I cover the tank with a blanket/sheet?

I hear Tigertail cukes are the cuke of choice... but don't they foul tank water if they die?

Would Fighting Conches or sand sifting stars serve the same purpose.... minus the pollution if they die?

Jon

[Clarkii Clowns]

Contact Mary on mailmd@juno.com

She has some cheap Strombus Maculatus Snails, they reproduce in the home aquarium apparently quite well and are super algae eaters.

Here is a link which has some great info about them
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/rs/

[Bomber]

Jon, I don't know your rocks. :) or how dirty or what's on them. But, I don't think I would bother to cover the tank. Without direct lighting, the astreas will be able to keep up with any algae that starts growing.

I've never noticed any difference in cukes, one's as good as the other and I've never lost anything from one dying either.

Conch and stars are something you need to add down the road once there's something in the sand for them to eat. People don't advise sand sifting stars for sand beds BTW.

[Playdope]

Conch and stars are something you need to add down the road once there's something in the sand for them to eat.

Maybe this is a dumb question... but cukes also feed from detritus in the sandbed don't they?

Jon

[Bomber]

Detrius, algae, bacterial biofilms, etc.

[Playdope]

My point was...

Don't cukes, sand sifting stars, and conches all serve the same purpose in cleaning the sand bed.

Jon

[Bomber]

nope for the most part, they all eat different things

[Playdope]

Have you kept all three?

I guess these would be the determining factors as to which of them I should go with...

My sandbed isn't incredibly deep - only 1 inch or so at certain parts. So I'm not sure if all of them will like that.. and I also don't really want anything that will agitate the sand so much that it reveals my tank bottom - just something that keeps the surface nice and white.

My sandbed is also sugarfine.

Jon