computer battery powered back up on a tank...

[s dubay]

I was interested in getting on of those computer back up power supplies for my tank in case the power goes out,i remember reading a thread a while ago stateing that you could not use these on a fish tank,is this true?Basicly i just want to have it hooked up to my return pump and thats it so i dont flood the basement and to keep the water circulating for the fish!Would this work or do i have to buy a certain kind of power supply?anybody have any idea?:(

[s dubay]

also, sorry if this post is in the wrong forum but i thought it was the most appropriate!

[SAT]

You can use them. The cheaper ones produce a wierd-shaped waveform that may not be good for the pump, but the more expensive ones are pretty good. You'll need a fairly large, expensive, unit to drive the pump for an extended period.

Make sure the UPS is kept well away from salt spray and high humidity.

[s dubay]

Okay, thanks again!My girlfriend works at staples so i was planning on getting one there!Very very rarely does the power go out for more then a few min's where i live but all it takes is about 5 mins and sump will overflow (i should have planned things better)when it overflows i loose about 5G of water before it will stop flowing so i really think i should get one!I will make sure i get one big enough for the load!
On a related topic is there anyway to prevent this overflow?
My sump is about a 50G tank which while running holds about 35-40G or water,after the power goes out the sump can handle the flow directly from the overflow's but then the water starts to siphon back down threw my return lines and down threw the pump back into the sump,this is the water that the sump cannot handle!My tank is a 230G whith the return lines plumbed right into the sides of the overflows about 1-2" down from the top of the overflows!If i had the returns hanging on the back of the tank this problem would not be a concern cause the return would be the same hieght as the overflows but because it is lower the water reverse's flow and falls back down the return line!
Anyway to prevent this?

[SAT]

Assuming your return line goes over the lip of the tank, you can prevent back-siphon by putting a small hole in the line right above the water line.

[s dubay]

!If i had the returns hanging on the back of the tank this problem would not be a concern cause the return would be the same hieght as the overflows but because it is lower the water reverse's flow and falls back down the return line!

Yah i wish they were but they are plumbed into the side walls of the overflows they are not on the lip of the tank!They are 2" below the surface of the water!
Therein lies the problem!I cant seem to figure this one out!

[s dubay]

I am thinking the best course of action would have been to seal off the drilled return holes in the sides of the overflow's and ran my return line behind the tank so the returns would have hung over the back lip of the tank!
But my plumbing is already done and it would be very very hard to redo everything now!
The only thing i could think of would be if my return hoseing in the overflow box came above the water level in the tank with a couple 45's then went back down to the return holes!But even that would be very hard to change now!
I hope you can understand what i am talking about!I could post some pics if necesary!

[s dubay]

There! please look in my gallery to see exactly what i am trying to explain!Thanks

[SAT]

It's a little hokey, but you could add some connectors inside the tank so the return is effectively closer to the water line.

Can you run the sump with less water in it, thus not overflowing when it gets the backflow?

[s dubay]

It's a little hokey, but you could add some connectors inside the tank so the return is effectively closer to the water line.
You know i never really thought about that,like you say it may look a little hokey but i think it would work good!Thanks for the good advice again!I am wondering how come inter american built this tank this way?Do most tanks not have return's plumbed right into the overflows?I have looked at alot of tanks and most returns are hanging over the back!I never once even thought about this while i was looking to buy a tank!If i cannot figure out anything else i will try the connectors!Thanks again,
Jeremy:D

[laugh]

You could try the ball and socket type connectors. That way you could aim them wherever you wanted and get them closer to the surface so that there would be less siphoning. These also would be the easiest to install.
Good luck,
BEN

[tuckerdog]

I think " sat " has the right idea. Try two 90 degree elbows angled up , this will reduce overflow about an inch. If you do the math it will reduce several gallons in the sump ( depending on tank size ) Also if possible try a larger sump.

[kathyharper103]

whats a good model/unit to buy?

[elazarus3]

I use to have similar problems. I did add computer type backup - works great, but only runs my pump for about 45 minutes. We sometimes have long powerouts, so this wasn't enough. I did the following: I got a tiny air pump, and dropped it in the top of the tank with an airstone. This is now the only item on the computer backup power source. Can run for a really long time now!

Regarding the overflow issue, after flooding the living room twice and replacing the carpet, I moved my tank in front of a window, ran my return out the bottom of the window, and the overflow as well. I built a small enclosure on our deck, under the window, where I now have the sump, Calcium reactor, skimmer, etc. I put a fan over the sump on a timer that runs during daylight hours.

It's been great! Any overflow now happens outside - not 1 drop of water in the house. I can also do my water changes on the deck. I haven't had problems with temperature control - added 2x the amount of heat I need for winter, and run the fan in the summer - no chiller. I live in denver - it can be below 0 in the winter, over 100 in the summer - still, temperature is always between 78 and 82.

I agree also it makes sense to plug your returns and return over the lip at the top of the tank.

Hope some of that is helpful,

Ethan

[s dubay]

Thanks for all the replys,i plan on getting a backup from staples next week i checked and my return pump is rated for 230Watts so i guess i will get one that will cope with that!That window idea sounds great,i wish,my tank is in the basement!Thanks again for all the replys!

[Flomot flash]

All you need is a check valve(one way valve) with barb connectors on both ends. cut the line just below the tee and install check valve. A couple of hose clamps and all flooding problems solved. I had this same setup in a 150 gallon only the return lines were drilled in the bottom of the tank. Not the best choice but I got a really good deal on the used 150g tank with the holes already drilled. Without the check valve ALL the water would drain out through the supply lines.

As for the UPS sizing multiply the amps your pump draws by 120 and then triple the result, this will give you the number of voltamps you need to hold the pump up for about thirty minutes. The more voltamps the longer the battery will last.

[firemouth4416]

I have 2x 1200VA backups on my system. One powers the main pump and the other powers everything else. A alarm sounds when the power goes out. The nice thing is that most power problems are not that long and I dont have to worry. For longer power blackouts I have an inverter that can work off my car and power my main pump.

Between these two things I should have enough to get me through most power problems

[troubled0001]

i run a little belkin backup rated @ 1/2 hour (900VA) - with only the return pump on the backup side (the other side's surge). unfortunately i've had to use it a few times - lasts for over an hour w/ just the return pump running.


hth

[sherm71tank]

I recommend the APC Smart ups systems. They run the best waveforms and I have contacted them regarding this. I have an 80 watt return pump on a 1250 Smart UPS and it will run for better than an hour on it.

On the note of overflowing your sump please remember when it comes to reefs and setting up your system " whatever can go wrong will go wrong" you really should plan on the power being out for a while and size the sump accordingly. I'm not preaching so dont go off on me here. I speak from unfortunate experience and didnt find RC till a few years after I was in the hobby.

[JoeMack]

I use a APC 1600 and it runs my MAG 5 (50 watts on a 50G) for 5-6 hours. It's just the return but its flow and it circulates and has worked great for the last 2 hour power outage I had (california where its scarry). When the power and the lights went on nothing was fased except a few corals were in their nocturnal state. You can look around and get a used up ups around my size for real cheap if the batts are dead and replace the lead acid batts or just use the interter w/ car batts (untested).

[firemouth4416]

There are some really cheap ones periodicly in the newspaper ads.

[s dubay]

Well i purchased an A.P.C rated at 750Va and good for 500watts rated at 60mins,it cost a little over $100.00.I am a little disapointed with it though,i tested it out and it ran just my return pump for 12mins,thats it.I guess you really have to buy an expensive one to get long running power.I have a generator as well, so for the short outages the unit will work alright but anything long term i would still have to use the generator!

[Shoestring Reefer]

So a 750-VA UPS, rated for 500 watts and 60 minutes, ran a 230-watt pump for 12 minutes.

Anyone know for sure how to use these numbers to judge how a given UPS will power a given pump?

[firemouth4416]

Some battery backup site has a way to figure your requirement. The thing thats important is the AMP draw, not the wattage.

[Michael950]

APC.com:
Product selector: http://www.apc.com/template/size/apc/index.cfm


I use an APC Back-UPS LS 700, and it will rum my return pump (CAP 2200 - 33w) for about 2 1/2 hours.

Also read the RK article for some info about powerhead and its wattage:
An Overview of Powerhead Choices Available to the Reef Hobbyist
by Roger Vitko (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-09/nftt/index.htm)

[Michael950]

s dubay:

What kind of pump do you have? That does not sound right. Did you give the UPS at least a full 24hrs to charge the battery before testing?


Are you sure your pump is 230W? In the article I referenced, the largest draw for the pumps listed was 105W. Maybe you should invest in a more efficient pump or an alternate solution to your problem?

I skimmed the articles, if you are trying to prevent flooding then some type of siphon break should be implemented and if you are trying to keep your fish alive then a cheap aerator might work just the same.

Otherwise:
http://www.guardiangenerators.com/products/guardian.asp?NavID=1 :)

[s dubay]

Well the pump is a Gen-X submersible 8500 rated at 2250 GPH and 230watts so NO it is not the most effiencent pump around!Also i let the batteries charge for about 8-10 hours so probly not long enough.I will give it another go tommorow and post some results!I was'nt sure if the batteries where charged or not and the manual said nothing about charging them so that is way i tested it out right away!Also my main concern is flooding ,i have battery powered pumps for the fish if needed!Most poweroutages around here last no more then around 5-10mins so the backup would sufice for most applications,but not all unfortuatly.my pump can be found at...
www.pacificcoastimports.com
all it says is 230watts no other specs!

[JB NY]

I find a UPS terrible at keeping a main pump going for a long time. Every time I test them I only get about 15 minutes out of it. I'm running a 300 watt return pump.

I ended up using a inverter/charger and a 95AH Deep Cell battery, I now get 2.5 hours with the pump.

[beerguy]

For my setup, I've got one of my streams pumps on a 1000KVA. I loose primary circulation but still have lots of flow in the tank. The low power consumption of the pump gives me run times of several hours.

[JB NY]

Yeah, putting a stream on the backup is a good idea. They use such little power they will run a long time on a UPS. When the east coast blackout hit, I shut my main pump down and ran just the stream and an air stone off my backup. I estimated about 36 hours :eek: I could go with out power using it that way.

[Michael950]

s dubay

Here is another link for an alternate solution, which may be similar to what JB NY may have.

Website info (http://mistressreef.homestead.com/files/DIY/diy.html#UPS)
ReefCentral Post (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64918&highlight=battery)

[Chuckles]

We use these for emergency power at a client site. They are a little spendy, but versatile and well made.

Xantrex Powerpack (http:///www.xantrex.com/products/product.asp?did=126)

Some of their other products may be more appropriate.

[s dubay]

Well i actually tested it agian and it gave me 14mins. so i took it back and went out a bought a few more 1" 45degree elbows and proceded to adjust my output plumbing.It is now about 3" higher in the water colum.I shut the power off and tested it out,it worked like a charm no more flooding!It does look a little weird in the tank but not too bad!I still have my battery powered pumps for the power outages!The power actually went out last night for about 5 mins.Needless to say for once i finally had no water to clean up.:)Thanks for all the advice and help
Jeremy

[Shoestring Reefer]

Glad you got it worked out.

[firemouth4416]

APC 500VA battery Back-UPS.....on sale at Office Depo for 29.95 after rebate.
29.95
29.95
29.95
Just thought I would repeat it!

[JoeMack]

Originally posted by JB NY
Yeah, putting a stream on the backup is a good idea. They use such little power they will run a long time on a UPS. When the east coast blackout hit, I shut my main pump down and ran just the stream and an air stone off my backup. I estimated about 36 hours :eek: I could go with out power using it that way.

I was thinking of doing more of what you are saying. Even a trickle charge on a car batt w/ an inverter and a relay can do a lot more than a UPS that is hot even when its idle. I know its wasting energy because 1 side is always hot. I guess its the little computer it uses and the power reguation. If I'm in an outage I just want to run my 50W MAG 5. I think Thats all I need for my 50G tank. The main circulation is a Mag 9.5 on a SCWD and I know it can go w/o that for maybe even days and "survive" rather than "survive" in that time frame. I'm in Ca and every bit of energy saved = more frags etc. :lol:

BTW does anyone know the shelf life of an actively charged Lead Acid battery?

[Shoestring Reefer]

I've got a question sort of related to Joe's: how do you test a battery to see if it's still good?

Also, why couldn't you get a 29.95 (after rebate) UPS, and replace it's battery with a higher-capacity one? Or just wire another one in parallel? The considerations I can think of are getting a battery with the same voltage that is compatable with the UPSs charging method.

[JoeMack]

You can do that. I know that Lead Acid batts need to be charged at no more than 2A last time I checked. The cheap USPs are only able to invert X watts of power into AC, but can probally power most pumps. Also some of the UPSs use a modified sine wave and make your pump freak out.

[Shoestring Reefer]

A search for "modified sine pump" turned up this thread only. Would a filtered modified sine wave be better than a modified sine wave? Can you think of any particular UPSs that made pumps freak out?

[JB NY]

I'd call the pump manufacturer and ask them. My sequence 6000 makes a noticable loud hum when on backup power using a modified sign wave. I spoke with sequence and they assured me it was not a problem for the pump.

APC and tripp lite both made the loud hum when running my pumps the only UPS that ran it perfectly was a Powerware UPS.

[NwG]

I keep 2 old back-up plugged in with nothing running off them... they last about 15 min each and I use them every 2 hours or so after the power goes out....All I need to is to figure out how to get them to wait 2 hours after the power goes out to start up.......
Nate D