Upgrading?

[jimfairchild]

Hello Again Dr. Randy,

First thank you for your advice on my pH, the tank is doing just fine thanks to your input. Dr. Randy it seems the deeper I go into this Marine, Reef thang the less and less I understand. So I was wondering if I might ask your opinion to my other dilemma?

I have wanted to put a sump below my 30 gallon extra high for the health of its inhabitant’s and cleaning up all the equipment hanging in the tank and to make the tank look more natural. Well so luck would have it my LFS gave me another alternative. A HOT EcoSystem it looks impressive and would solve my dilemma but wonder with its Miracle Mud would it be more beneficial for the few fishes, seahorses and corals than the sump. It appears on the surface it would be less expensive way to go. Dr. Randy can you comment on my dilemma or direct me to someone who could please?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dr. Randy it seems the deeper I go into this Marine, Reef thang the less and less I understand.

You'll find that is true of almost all areas of science. The more you know, the more that you realize what you do not know. :D

Growing macroalgae would be good wherever you do it. A HOT system will have less surface area (llikely) so would be somewhat less beneficial, IMO.

[jimfairchild]

Thank you Dr. Randy for your reply.... Hmmm surface area huh?

Have a great day Dr. Randy,
Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

By surface area, I mean area that you can light to grow macroalgae. Surface area is what usually limits the amount that you can grow.

[jimfairchild]

Thank you for your clairfication Dr. Randy

So it would appear a sump would be a better way to go for surface area and would suffice for an Ecosystem right? Now where would I find a sump that would fit in a space of 25x16x11.25 inches? Also the sump seems to be more versatile in that I can use existing equipment and not locked into a supplier. I think?

Thank you,
Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Before I moved my sump to my basement (and into 2 x 44 gallon Rubbermaid Brute Trash cans), I used a Nalgene tank for my sump. Many different sorts of plastic containers are available. I'd search around to see if you can find one that fits those dimensions.

[jimfairchild]

Great idea Dr. Randy,
I might be able to visit a friend at Wash U and order a Nalgene container... so in a sump you do not need baffles, holes and partitions? Good grief you use trash cans for a sump? My LFS said I could purchase a CRS? for $259 that would do the job.
Thanks Dr. Randy,
Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I used a cheap hole saw to cut out holes for my return pump and some float switches, although you can design a system without those.

Yes, I use the trash cans, along with one for RO/DI water, one for salt water, and one for limewater. :)

[jimfairchild]

So you use a combo of RO/DI water to mix your salt? Why?

In regards to limewater which I assume I'm calling it Kallkwasser? Do you employ or drip nightly too make up water if your T/A is below 10 and Ca is below 4.20?

Dr. Randy have you heard or tried a product called B-IONIC Systems 1 for alklinity & 2 System for Calicum as it looks like more convient way to go but certainly much more expensive.

Then back to pH Dr. Bingmans standard.... I'll never get my yard mowed. kidding..

I have been trying to understand the recipe of Dr. Craig Bingman’s for a pH standard. First, what kind of purified water is he talking about? Then it seems as if he gives the recipe for only one calibration point, is this so? Measure ½ teaspoon of borax and add to a pint of (purified) water then stir or mix. Then find the temperature of your slurry. Using table II calibrate the pH to the corresponding temperature. Now you are ready to test the unknown aquarium water. One last thing Dr. Randy how long is this calibration solution stable?

Thanks for taking your time in helping us Dr. Randy..
Jim and Marie

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So you use a combo of RO/DI water to mix your salt? Why?


No, it is all RO/DI water. ???

In regards to limewater which I assume I'm calling it Kallkwasser? Do you employ or drip nightly too make up water if your T/A is below 10 and Ca is below 4.20?

Yes, limewater is the english word for the german word kalkwasser.

I dose 24/7 with a Reef Filler Pump that is activated with a float switch to slowly replace all evaporation. I use less than saturated limewater because my tank doesn't need saturated limewater. I don't actually measure calcium or alkalinity very often.

Dr. Randy have you heard or tried a product called B-IONIC Systems 1 for alklinity & 2 System for Calicum as it looks like more convient way to go but certainly much more expensive.


Yes, there are a number of two part systems, including B-ionic which was the original and is the one that I have used. I also have posted a DIY recipe for such additives:

A Homemade Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Additive System
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2004/chem.htm


Two part systemns are fine, although usually expensive. I compare the various balanced calcium and alkalinity addition methods in this article:

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have been trying to understand the recipe of Dr. Craig Bingman’s for a pH standard. First, what kind of purified water is he talking about?

Any kind, but preferably distilled or RO/DI. RO may be OK.

Then it seems as if he gives the recipe for only one calibration point, is this so?

I prefer to think of it as checking the proper operation and calibration, as opposed to doing the actual calibration, although some meters could use it as one of the calibration points, and would require another, usually pH 7.

I'd make up that solution each time you want to use it, unless you seal it in an air tight container. CO2 can enter and lower the pH.

[jimfairchild]

Dr. Randy;

Thank you for the Recipes... I shall fall all over myself trying to figure them out.

Are you saying Reverse Osmosis and Deionized Water are one in the same?

Did you answer this one?
I have been trying to understand the recipe of Dr. Craig Bingman’s for a pH standard. First, what kind of purified water is he talking about? Then it seems as if he gives the recipe for only one calibration point, is this so? Measure ½ teaspoon of borax and add to a pint of (purified) water then stir or mix. Then find the temperature of your slurry. Using table II calibrate the pH to the corresponding temperature. Now you are ready to test the unknown aquarium water. One last thing Dr. Randy how long is this calibration solution stable?

Thanks for taking your time in helping us Dr. Randy..
Jim and Marie

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are you saying Reverse Osmosis and Deionized Water are one in the same?


No. Many systems sold to hobbyists (like myself) consist of an RO followed by a DI.

Spectrapure sells them, for example:

www.spectrapure.com

The borax answers are in the second post above. I probably posted it while you were writing yours. :)

[jimfairchild]

Then it seems as if Dr. Bingman gives the recipe for only one calibration point, is this so?

"I prefer to think of it as checking the proper operation and
calibration, as opposed to doing the actual calibration, although
some meters could use it as one of the calibration points, and would require another, usually pH 7.

Ok Dr. Randy.. We are getting closer... so try not to confuse me.. If I use Dr. Bingman's table II, I mix 1/2 tsp of Borax in a pint of purified water, mix and use my 10 calabration screw on the meter to display the pH per the solution temperature to ensure the proper the operation and calibration. Right?

Then you mentioned a second operation and calibration point. So would you use a 1/4 tsp of Borax in a pint of purified water to get the second operation and calibration point? I have a 7 adjustment screw and a single screw for the 4 and 10 adjustment.

Finally what formula or portions of Borax and RO water would you use to achieve two "actual calibration" points for the purpose of checking a tanks pH? :]

"I'd make up that solution each time you want to use it, unless you seal it in an air tight container. CO2 can enter and lower the pH."

I understand.. that was in my first lesson.... So I will make it fresh as in outdoors each time I want to know my tanks pH.

Sorry to be such a nerd but I really want to understand.

Respectfully,
Jim

[jimfairchild]

Hi Dr. Randy...

SpectraPure® Inc. Wheeew! What ions does their system remove that my R/0 system not remove.. please don't say all of them..

Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Then it seems as if Dr. Bingman gives the recipe for only one calibration point, is this so?

Yes.

If I use Dr. Bingman's table II, I mix 1/2 tsp of Borax in a pint of purified water, mix and use my 10 calabration screw on the meter to display the pH per the solution temperature to ensure the proper the operation and calibration. Right?

Different meters are calibrated differently, and some cannot use it at all. Personally, I'd calibrate the meter with pH 7 and 10 or 7 and 9 commercial fluoids (9 is not possible for all meters). Then I'd use the borax to ensure that the calbiration is correct.

You may be able to use the borax in place of the high pH calibration fluid for some meters. You may or may not be able to use the pH 10 screw with it, depending on how much range that screw has.

What ions does their system remove that my R/0 system not remove.. please don't say all of them..

RO systems remove things based on size, and usually leave about 1-10% of most ions behind in the water. The DI system will them remove all of those charged ions that remain. It is good ensurance that there is not too much copper in the water, IMO.

[jimfairchild]

Hi Dr. Randy..

The results are in! I calibrated my 3-month-old probe with Mgf recommendation of 4.0 and 7.0-calibration fluid. Reason given is the instrument is more linear. My lab is 77 degrees. I went back and forth with tweaking the screw and rinsing the probe rinsing in R/0 water in-between solutions. I was able to attain a perfect 4.0 and 7.0 calibration.
Then I submersed the probe in 1 pint of R/0 water with completely dissolved ½ tsp of Borax. Result first time 9.06 I then went back to my calibration solutions and tweaked a tiny bit more and got an 8.96 then an 8.93. IMHO the only way I could achieve an 8.93 was if my lab was around 150 degrees F! I recalibrated the probe in the solutions again then put it in the 76.3F tank. Result 7.86! I immediately tested the tank water with a Red Sea test kit and got 8.2. Just wanted to let you know after all your hard work the past few days. Question, what do I pitch?

Thank you,
Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does your meter not allow pH 10 calibration?

[jimfairchild]

Yes Sir...

10, 7 and 4.

Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The solution itself may drop a bit over time as CO2 enters, but unless you were stirring it a lot, that seems like more than drift.

You migth try calibrating at pH 7 and 10, but in general, a difference of 0.1 pH unit will not be important. I'd probably believe the pH meter over the kit, but since it read the borax low, it is probably reading the tank a tad low too, and the pH is probably around 8.0 (how's that for guesswork :D).

[jimfairchild]

Are you running for office, this term?

Jim

Back to the lab Dr. Randy... will report back tomorrow.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Good luck!

[jimfairchild]

Thank You Sir..

We will try..

Jim

[jimfairchild]

Good Morning Dr. Randy,

Second day test results are as follows:
30-gallon tanks pH before recalibration this morning. 7.82
R/O water 6.61

Milwaukee pH Buffer Solution 7.0 and 10.0. I didn’t need to move the 7.0 screw from yesterday cal. Point and the pH 10 Buffer Solution read 9.96 so a slight adjustment was made to 10.0. Then I rinsed the probe in R/O water and wiped the probe with a paper towel before submerging it in the Borax Solution at 77 degrees. Result 9.01 according to Dr. Bingman’s Table II the “fresh� Borax solution should have read 9.180

My tank water now reads 7.82 and my little 10-gallon Nemo tank reads 7.68.

Now I got a major problem… I just got an e-mail from Ocean Rider that my two 2 inch female Erectus will arrive this Friday. OR recommends a tank pH of 8.2 to 8.4. I have 2 male Erectus from OR that have been surviving these lower pH’s the past 8 months.

Now what do I do Dr. Randy?

Jim

PS Marie and I no longer breathe in the house. :/

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Marie and I no longer breathe in the house

That's the first step. I'm glad you're on track. :D

Whichever value is correct (assuming one is), it is worth raising the pH.

I'd suggest picking a high pH calcium and alkalinity supplement, such as a two part additive (like B-ionic) or limewtaer. That will push up the pH.

[jimfairchild]

Marie and I no longer breathe in the house

That's the first step. I'm glad you're on track.

That hurt!

OK before we dose with B-ionic I want you to know our T/A, dKH and Ca before we dose, OK?

Marie is doing the tests now.

Sounds like your not a fan of Red Sea pH Tests... but that is all our LFS uses and sells.

Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sounds good!

Later this afternoon I'm getting 6 crowns at the dentist, so I may not get back to you until tonight.

[jimfairchild]

Later this afternoon I'm getting 6 crowns at the dentist, so I may not get back to you until tonight.

Oooooooh e-tie! I wish you well.

OK here is what Marie found.
Ca 400 T/A 4.57 and dKH 12.8 the Red Sea pH is still 8.2 as well as my 10 gallon 8.2 Wholey Cow. Hmm our LFS said a rule of thumb was if the Alklinity is below 10 and Ca below 400 then give the tank the B-ionic treatment we are only adding 5 ml of each at a time.

Since you recommended dosing we did... shut off the skimmer and bio-wheel... the only water movement is caused by a little 404 way down behind the rocks.

We got immediate results pH went from 7.82 to 8.05 and after 20 minutes we turned on the skimmer and bio-wheel and the pH reads 7.94 looks like we got a long way to go huh?

Good Luck Dr. Randy,
Thanks,
Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm back. :)

Why did you turn off the skimmer during dosing?

[jimfairchild]

I'm back.

Marie says you look great and prettier than ever.... nice smile! :)

Why did you turn off the skimmer during dosing?

"cause we could?"

Just kidden Doc. I think we thought the 404 would create enough turbulence to push the stuff around the tank and the bio-wheel and skimmer would only collect the Bi-onics and hold it in their vessels causing a low dose to the tank. No? Bad thinking huh?

Dr. Randy you are not going to believe this but while you were out Marie and I went to our LFS and bought the Tetra pH test kit.
We discuss his shops pH vs our pH... He routinely checks his stores pH with Red Sea 8.2 and a pH refractometer 8.05.

I purchased from him the Tetra Test Kit then proceeded to test his water. I got a 7.7. He said no way! With smug faces we returned home and tested our water with the tetra test kit.. and guess what 8.3!
Our probe reads 7.96 at 77.2 degrees.

Can you make anything out of all these results?

Thank you sir..
Jim
P.S.
Hopefully to improve matters by Friday I should have a 10 gallon sump up and running under the 30 gallon tank. Then in a few months we are planning an Aqua-Culture Eco System. Hope you will approve?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Marie says you look great and prettier than ever.... nice smile!

That's good to know, especially as I only ended up with three permanents, and have three new temps to last me until they fix some problems with the other three. :D

I wouldn't turn off anything during dosing. Nothing will suck up the calcium or alkalinity, and more mixing and aeration is usually beneficial.

I'd believe the probe over the kit, and your pH is a tad low, but not enough to worry much about.

I'd stick with the 5 mL of B-ionic for now.

Is your house cllosed up tight, with air conditioning? Or do you have windows open? More aeration with fresh air should raise the pH a bit.

[jimfairchild]

Marie says you look great and prettier than ever.... nice smile!

That's good to know, especially as I only ended up with three permanents, and have three new temps to last me until they fix some problems with the other three.

And "I" thought the crowns were to worn on top of your head. :/

I wouldn't turn off anything during dosing. Nothing will suck up the calcium or alkalinity, and more mixing and aeration is usually beneficial.

Yes, sir will follow your advice. Dr. Randy do you have a range for Ca and T/A in home reef tanks?

I'd believe the probe over the kit, and your pH is a tad low, but not enough to worry much about.

I'd stick with the 5 mL of B-ionic for now.

Yes sir.... I will comply.. thanks for the confidence in the probe. I too kinda side with the probe.

Thank you so much, once again Dr. Randy.
Respectfully,
Jim and Marie

PS.. Tuff question.. When acculamating Reef or Marine animals like seahorses from one system to another... Do you favor the drip method or the cup method?

[jimfairchild]

Oooops I forgot to answer your question.

Is your house cllosed up tight, with air conditioning? Or do you have windows open?

We open windows and doors in the am then close the house up in early afternoon till morning. We have the air set at 76 degrees.

More aeration with fresh air should raise the pH a bit.

Dr. Randy I keep a glass lid on the tank, salt, only open an inch in the rear of the tank. I want to do the same with the sump please?

Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dr. Randy do you have a range for Ca and T/A in home reef tanks?


Here are recommended ranges for everthing:

Reef Aquarium Water Parameters (a summary general article)
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm

Tuff question.. When acculamating Reef or Marine animals like seahorses from one system to another... Do you favor the drip method or the cup method?

I haven't spent a lot of time comparing different acclimation methods. I usually just take a pitcher with a fish and its accompanying water, and pour in a little tank water every minute or two. Dripping sounds fine, however.
I keep a glass lid on the tank, salt, only open an inch in the rear of the tank. I want to do the same with the sump please?

So in a case like that, CO2 may build up in the water, reducing the pH. A skimmer may drive some CO2 out of the water and raise the pH.

[jimfairchild]

Good morning,

Excellent article Dr. Randy... It will take me a couple of days to sift through all the information you have given me.

I will get busy.
Thank you so much.
Jim

[jimfairchild]

Hi Again Dr. Randy,

Just wanted to report that it is time for a 4 gallon water change.
My tank water this morning after we left a window open all night and took the lid off the tank the pH is 7.88 with the meter.

My exchange water has been mixed, heated and areated since Sunday S/G 1.024..... pH 7.87

Guess I will never get it to 8.2?

Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Try aerating a cup of tank water with an airstone for an hour using outside air and see what happens to the pH (it should rise). Then try the same with inside air. That will help diagnose whether the tank, or the whole house has excess CO2.

[jimfairchild]

Good evening Dr. Randy

We did this last week but I will repeat our experiment tomorrow.

pH now is.. ta da... drum roll.... 7.83 and we haven't been home for the past 4 hours. We have dosed the tank with B-ionic's last two days but did a water change this morning.

Regards,
Jim

[jimfairchild]

Good Morning Sir,

Before I get started on my assignment you should know our tank pH is 7.64!

Jim

[jimfairchild]

Goood Morning Dr. Randy,

The results are in and you win big time….

The 30-gallon tank this morning had a pH of 7.64

We began our outdoor experiment:
Start pH 7.64
Finish pH 8.13

We began our indoor experiment:
Start pH 7.67
Finish pH 8.03

The 30-gallon tank after two hours has a pH of 7.66


Dr. Randy this weekend I will be setting up a 10-gallon sump under the 30-gallon tank.
Would it help if I put an air wand in the 10-gallon as it is very hard to pump in outside air?

PS You had me do this same experiement 2 weeks ago... and
Start indoor at 7.92
Finish 7.93

Start outdoor at 7.92
Finish 8.05

I will anxiously await your reply.
Regards,
Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, the air wand might help.

If the alkalinity is higher now, then the pH that you end up with after aeration will also be higher.

Do you have a skimnemr/ A strong skimmer can really do a lot of aeration.

Is the tank top covered?

[jimfairchild]

Yes, the air wand might help.

Ok then I will put one in the sump driven by a Rena Model 50, 1-10 gallon or 50 liters per hour on an air stone via outside air. You have convinced me. Thank you.

If the alkalinity is higher now, then the pH that you end up with after aeration will also be higher.

Yep, but I will confirm a little later tonight. Funny the little 10 gallon upstairs registers a pH of 7.95.

Do you have a skimnemr/ A strong skimmer can really do a lot of aeration.

We have a Remora Acqua C... should be good to up to 75 gallon and with the sump I should now have 40 minus the rock. The unit came with a Maxijet 1200.

Is the tank top covered?

Grrrrr not now... good grief salt everywhere.

pH is now 7.83 and rising thanks to outside air and Dr. Randy

Thank You..

Jim


__________________

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Good luck. :)

[jimfairchild]

Thank you so much Dr. Randy,

Really appreciate your help. Tomorrow we get all the plumbing hardware for the sump. The seven pounds of live rock, some calpura are cooken.. then we get 2 pretty Girl Horses...

Put in a new charcoal filter this afternoon and have the pump running out doors. :/

The 30 gallons pH is .... 7.87 at 9:43 pm.

Thank you..
Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That sounds good. Let us know how it goes when you add the creatures. :)

[jimfairchild]

Good Morning Dr. Randy

It's kinda like pins and needles now as everything, sump tubing and pump and the girls, could show up all at once...

I wish I knew more about the acclimation process. I have a good friend at UC Davis who is a molecular biologist phD type.

He says always use the drip method when acclimating creatures to your tank.

Others say the cup method is the prefered method.

Both procedures should only take 45 minutes.

If animals are shipped overnight it is the fear especially when you open the bag the nitrites and ammonia become very toxic to the animals.

Then why couldn't you use Prime immediately upon opening the bag to nutrify these toxins then drip to acculimate the animals..

Seems to me it would be less stressful and more gentle on their organs.

What say you Dr. Randy?

BTW the pH this morning is 7.85 at 76.5 degrees which is better than 7.63 yesterday morning.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've never used any ammonia binding materials, but it does sound like it would be useful as the pH rose in the acclimation fluid.

[jimfairchild]

Good Morning Dr. Randy,

"I've never used any ammonia binding materials, but it does sound like it would be useful as the pH rose in the acclimation fluid."

I'm not sure what you mean, can you explain please?

We got our 2" baby Erectus yesterday morning. When followed the acclimation process recommended by the mfg. They were doing find in a pH of 7.95. This morning the pH is 7.75 even after adding 5ml of Bi-ionic last night. Left windows open all night and the tank lid off. I don't understand it... guess I better check my calibration of the meter again today.

The real problem was getting our new little sump running! I am seeing red this morning with this overflow box from CPR... This is not OTB friendly... anyway I hope to get this ironed out this morning... The baby’s are starting to recover from a very very
terrorizing night.... aka water water everywhere!

We will check in with you later Dr. Randy,
Have a great day.
Jim and Marie


Good Morning Dr. Randy,

"I've never used any ammonia binding materials, but it does sound like it would be useful as the pH rose in the acclimation fluid."

I'm not sure what you mean can you explain please?

We got our 2' baby Erectus yesterday morning. When followed the acclimation process recommended by the mfg. They were doing find in a pH of 7.95. This morning the pH is 7.75 even after adding 5ml of Bi-ionic last night. Left windows open all night and the tank lid off. I don't understand it... guess I better check my calibration of the meter again today.

The real problem was getting our new little sump running! I am seeing red this morning with this overflow box from CPR... This is not OFTB friendly... anyway I hope to get this ironed out this morning... The baby’s are starting to recover from a very very
terrorizing night.... aka water water everywhere!

We will check in with you later Dr. Randy,
Have a great day.
Jim and Marie

[jimfairchild]

How did that happen... sent it twice.

OK How about this Dr. Randy..

After calibration which wasn't very far off:

R/O water 7.08

Seahorse tank 7.65
Sump 7.61
10 gallon Nemo tank 7.85
5 gallon Iron Horse Shrimp tank 7.80
5 gallon salt... 7.80

What to do.. please?
Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure what you mean, can you explain please?


In shipping, the CO2 released by the fish can provide some protection from the ammonia that is also released, since ammonia is less toxic at lower pH. As you begin acclimation, the pH rises due to the high pH tank water mixing in, and the ammonia can become more toxic.

So in that case, something like Prime might help protect the fish during acclimation.

If you want to riase the pH more, I'd use more of the B-ionic (both parts). Don't worry about the pH of the RO water.

[jimfairchild]

Thank you for the explaination Dr. Randy.. makes sense to me.

I put (both parts) of Bi-ionic in this afternoon when the pH was at 7.66. Soon as I added the buffers the pH rose to 7.90 then back down again. Right now it is... 7.74. No top on the 30 gallon and air stone inside the sump and line attached to an outside pump. Bio-Wheel 125, Skimmer. Heater, pH meter probe and titanium grounding rod all in the skimmer... and of course the Mag 5. Seems like all is working well.

Any suggestions Dr. Randy?
Regards,
Jim

PS Everything seems to be happy even the two baby seahorses.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All that I can suggest, beyond being really sure that those pH measurements are roughly accurate, is to use limewater, or to provide more aeration with fresher air (or both).

[jimfairchild]

Good morning Dr. Randy,

"All that I can suggest, beyond being really sure that those pH measurements are roughly accurate, is to use limewater, or to provide more aeration with fresher air (or both)."

I will do all the tests again, double check the Ca and T/A and if we have room to add more limewater I will.... Seems like I really don't have this problem when my meter is out of calibration but when it's in I just think we are headed for disaster.

Thank you Dr. Randy,
I will report back if I find anything really unusual.
Respectfully,
Jim and Marie

[jimfairchild]

Hi Dr. Randy,

I think I'm making a pest of myself but just had to get you these current results.

pH probe.. 7.74
Red Sea 8.2
Tetra 8.0

pH probe.. Limewater fresh 11.80
Nitrates 20
Ca 400
dKH 12.2
T/A 4.34
Mg 1245

I will begin a slow drip of limewater in the sump in about an hour.

Please let me know if you see anything funny?

Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Other than the fact that the pH kits and probe do not agree, it all seems fine.

[jimfairchild]

"Other than the fact that the pH kits and probe do not agree, it all seems fine."

Isn't that like getting an F on the final but promoted to the next grade?

At about 10 this morning the pH probe read 7.74
After 1000ml of Limewater in 11 hours the pH probe now reads 7.85 Wooo wooo!

Where do we go from here Dr. Randy?

Thanks,
Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Break the probe "accidently", and everything will be fine. :lol:

Seriously, if you aerate a cup of tank water for a very long time outside (several hours), how high does the pH get as measured with both kits and the meter?

Measure the alkalinity on that water prior to the experiment. This may help us decide which is accurate, as I know what the pH should roughly be for seawater fully aerated with normal air.

[jimfairchild]

"Break the probe "accidently", and everything will be fine."

Where there is a will there is a way.. hehee

"Seriously, if you aerate a cup of tank water for a very long time outside (several hours), how high does the pH get as measured with both kits and the meter?"

I don't know ... but guess I will find out... good grief!

"Measure the alkalinity on that water prior to the experiment."

My luck the alkalinity kit will be outdated or something. Ok will do Dr. Randy.

This may help us decide which is accurate, as I know what the pH should roughly be for seawater fully aerated with normal air.

Let me guess. :/

Always something to do... I'll report back after our experiment.

Thank you sir.
Jim


__________________

[jimfairchild]

Hi Again Dr. Randy,

Assignment complete and ready for your interpretation.
1 cup of tank water aerated outdoors for 6 hours.

Start Test at 09:30 Test Finished at 15:30

Electronic probe pH 7.79 8.15
Tetra pH kit 8.0 8.3
Red Sea pH kit 8.2 8.4
Salifert Alkalinity Profi 4.28 4.46
Red Sea Alkalinity High Normal High

Crazy huh?

Please let me know what you think… The Tank’s pH has risen to 7.88

Regards,

Jim

[jimfairchild]

Perhaps it will make more sense this way.


Hi Again Dr. Randy,

Assignment complete and ready for your interpretation.
1 cup of tank water aerated outdoors for 6 hours.

Start Test at 09:30 ............... ...............Test Finished at 15:30

Electronic probe pH 7.79 ............................ 8.15
Tetra pH kit 8.0 ............................ 8.3
Red Sea pH kit 8.2 ............................. 8.4
Salifert Alkalinity Profi 4.28 ............................4.46
Red Sea Alkalinity High .............................Normal High

Crazy huh?

Please let me know what you think… The Tank’s pH has risen to 7.88

Regards,
Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, that's reasonable. The pH of fully aerated water with an alkalinity of 4.3 meq/l ought to be around 8.3-8.4.

All of the methods showed a rise in pH on aeration, indicating excess CO2 in the aquarium.

So either :

1. The aeration was incomplete, and the kits read high and the meter is OK

or

2. The aeration was largely complete and the kits read OK and the meter low.

I can't tell which of the above is the case, but the fact that the pH rose by 0.36 pH units on aeration suggests to me that the tank probably is fairly low in pH, and should get more aeration or more high pH additives (B-ionic or limewater).

[jimfairchild]

Good Morning Dr. Randy,

Thank you for your response and advice and thank you for sticking with me on this one.
The 30-gallon tanks pH with probe is 7.80 this morning.

This morning I began dripping limewater again another 1000 ml. The aeration will continue with the outside air pumping into the sump via an airstone. I have on order a bubble ring for the sump to help eliminate the C02. I do not have a top on the tank anymore.

I use RO in 4 gallon plastic buckets to make up the Instant Ocean. I do aerate with an airstone and move the water via a 404 pump the RO water for at least 48 hours before adding the IO, then aerate and mix that for another 2 days before I use the water. I do this in my garage.

I would like to expose the source of the C02 Dr. Randy and hope we don’t have to move! I am familiar with a fyrite C02 measuring device. I don’t think the instrument would be sensitive enough to accurately measure the house C02 level. Can you think of a device I could use or rent that would do the job?

Thank You,
Jim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

CO2 measuring devices are expensive, but one is described in this article:

Indoor CO2 Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/short.htm


CO2 comes from gas appliances (not a vented furnace), unvented heaters, and people and pets.