Tank-to-sump, and back again

[Scholesy]

Hi all; I'm having some problems with getting water from the tank into the sump, and back again.

There isn't an overflow on my tank; so I decided the way to do it would be to have a small pump in the tank pumping water into the sump (where it's skimmed, heated etc). Then a small pump in the sump would send it back to the main tank.

Of course, the pump in the sump would have approx 4' of height to work against, so would have to be bigger or working harder than the pump in the tank.

This is going to involve a fair bit of tricky tuning to ensure one pump doesn't go faster than the other; resulting in disaster.

Does anyone have a better idea?

The other 'pumping' equipment in the set-up is a 2228 Eheim canister, and a SeaClone skimmer using a Maxijet 1000.

I could in theory have the Eheim take water from the tank; then send the outflow to the sump; then pump it back to the tank... but I will still have the issue of matching the pump output to that of the Eheim.....

(and sorry for the long post)

cheers

http://sockasaurus.cjb.net

[SweetE]

I would buy an overflow box that hangs over the lip of the tank. You will never get the two pumps to work at exactly the same rate, and if one gets dirty more than the other and slows down you will have a big mess. Lifereef makes good overflow boxes.

[BRIANW]

it is not worth the headake to me :(
just but a overflow box for the price you will spend on a extra pump and the pluming that you will have to do and for all the time you will spend tring to make it work i can not see any good in doing it any other way other than a overflow box and pump setup

thank
brianw

[vanweezer]

Unless you are wanting a reason to buy new carpet, I think this is a bad idea.

1. If your either of your pumps get clogged or shut off, you will have an overflow (either in the sump or the tank).

2. If you did get the exact amount of water from your sump to the tank as the water from the tank to the sump, how long would it last? From what I have read in the past, as pumps age, get dirty etc, they tend to loose their "push" power. Sooner or later, one of the pumps would be pushing more water than the other and you'll have a mess.

I could probably go on with more reasons NOT TO, but I will let some others jump in on this with their oppinion.

There is a reason why people spend the money on overflow boxes. And another reason why people buy tanks with "built in" overflows when they upgrade.

My advice, don't do it.

Vanweezer

[alphazone]

absolutley no way I would do this. You will be spilling water and burning up pumps all over the place. You will never be able to get the pumps to syncronize. The easiest solution is to buy an overflow to hang off the back. These can be a pain to adjust too but much better situation than two pumps (you will never get spillage if you set it up properly).

[Ravi]

I wouldn't do it either, but IF, for some reason, you insist -- then I would at least recommend buying some float switches and using them to avoid your carpet being flooded, or the sump pump burning out....

[Clyde]

i kinda wonder why people keep saying well, you could but it will not work


just say flat out NO it wont work.

I m sorry to be blunt.

get an overflow kit - Silent Overflow System - 55.00, and a return pump 50.00 and 105.00, you're done and you have a reliable system, MUCH better whatever idea you were thinking of.

sorry it costs money thats how it goes.

dont go CPR, I've had it and its pretty much a headache, I have a SOS, its great, I have not tried a lifereef but Ihear nothing but praises.

go the right road, you ll save MORE money becuase you would not have to replace the carpet, floor, livestock, prolly your ballasts, wiring, even worse your own house, if the pump decides to pump water on a electrical item, sparks flys and boom charred place.



do it right, you llbe happy - do it VERY right, get it drilled. if you cant, do the next best thing. not the worse thing.

[Scholesy]

thanks everyone for your comments.

OK; the two-pump idea is out the window.

It's a bit late for me to drill this tank; but I will go for the overflow. Can anyone quickly expain or point me to a URL that shows how they work?

Hopefully they aren't too big; I only have about 5" clearance between the back of the tank and the wall.

thanks again; I appreciate the advice.

[dsb1829]

I don't undestand why eveyone seems to think this type of setup won't/can't work. The truth is that it can work quite well. The catch is that it can't work well for cheep.

Here is what you would need to have this system work well.
DC return pump (flow determined by voltage)
water level sensors (1 in sump and 1 in tank for backup)
computer
data acquisition system to monitor sensors
digital to analog converter (allow you to interface computer with return pump)
conditioning circuit to control pump from DAC voltage
a simple program to catch the data and send out a digital signal in response to changing input

After you have done all that? Well unless you are seriously deranged you realized that this is way too much work when an overflow can be found starting at about $30 and going up to about $100 for a good one. It would be a fun project for a controls course at a college though:D :D :D

On a serious note scholesy, it is a no win situation when you fight gravity. I recommend that you look into a siphon overflow. Here are a couple of links to get you on the right track.

http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html

http://www.sealifesystems.com/

Lifereef is pretty much the cadillac of siphon overflows. Sealife makes the ones you can find for about $30. A couple of others to check for are Marineland "Tidepool" and the Amiracle brand. If you can justify the extra $20-30 I would definitely recommend doing the lifereef.

[Scholesy]

Thanks dsb. I think the SeaLife one will be the way to go. I'm not adverse to spending 30, 40 odd US$ to solve this problem; espec. if it reduces the risk of pump disasters....

I'm just sending SeaLife an email now finding out more.

cheers

p.s. our LFS' here )in NZ) are pretty cruddy so I will need to import it probably :(

[DC321]

Your carpet

[Scholesy]

OK... now frantically in the hunt for an overflow box. I have a whole 10cm (4") between the back of my tank and the wall... so it has to be quite narrow in that regard.

The guy from LIfeReef suggested a minimum flow of 500gph to avoid getting bubbles in the siphon tube... no way is my scrawny little sump-pump going to get anywhere near that... espec. pumping up 4' of head!!

Can anyone who has a hang-on-back overflow box put a ruler to it and send me the dimensions, and what rating pump they use?

I really appreciate the help.
Thanks

[dsb1829]

Most of these are designed for 500-600gph. I have run a Sealife on our fish only tank for about 6 months on a Rio2100. Reason I mention this is that it was rated to 600gph, but was most likely pushing 300-400 through the overflow. If your overflow box is smooth and there isn't any bubbles around the overflow then you can get away pushing less water through. You just have to keep an eye on it. FWIW a good Mag drive pump would run you about $50+ s&h.

Unfortunately there isn't a way to get it any cheeper than about $100-150 to convert to overflow and return. It is also an area where you get what you pay for in most cases. If you are handy you can even make the overflow box, but there are some variables to making one that works well. I have made one in the past that took about 700gph without any problems. You will have to do some research to get it right and also be handy. Definitely not the project for a virgin DIYer.