Measuring dissolved organics?

[pszemol]

I was reading about people comparing different skimmers by observing amounts of foam/gunk they create over days period...
Of course this method is highly inacurate since the amount of foam/gunk created really differs from day to day, depends on what we feed animals, depends on current slime creation, spawning periods, etc.

I am thinking, there must be some other way to actualy test/monitor skimmer effectiveness...
Randy must know how one can measure the dissolved organics content in the water column? Is the method available for a hobbyist? Would it be feasible to just monitor water "yellowness"? Would RedOx potential give any hints here?
Any other ideas?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are ways to measure organics, but not that are readily done at home.

There is an analytical test called Total Organic Carbon (TOC) that can be done by a lab. If you cared to distinguish soluble and particulate organics, you'd need to filter before testing to get the soluble fraction. THis lab can do it:

http://www.enclabs.com/fees.html#analyses

Salifert makes (or used to make) an organic test kit, but I've not used it and do not know anything about its accuracy. We have discussed it here, but it is not widely used.

[sjvl51]

FWIW - The Organic test is listed on the Salifert web site (www.salifert.com) so I would assume it is still available.

Vickie

[Habib]

Originally posted by sjvl51
FWIW - The Organic test is listed on the Salifert web site (www.salifert.com) so I would assume it is still available.

Vickie

We have a new version on the shelf for quite a while now.

It detects a very broad range of organics. We assume a standard average molecular weight (60 or so IIRC) per reactive functional group to express the results in mg/L. It goes in the sub ppm range.

IIRC it detects proteins, certain amino acids, certain amines, certain carbohydrates and many more substances.
We found also a significant difference between filtered and un filtered aquariumwater (proteins, phytoplankton.. ?)

That new version is a color comparison test.

[pszemol]

Originally posted by Habib
We have a new version on the shelf for quite a while now.

It detects a very broad range of organics. We assume a standard average molecular weight (60 or so IIRC) per reactive functional group to express the results in mg/L. It goes in the sub ppm range.

IIRC it detects proteins, certain amino acids, certain amines, certain carbohydrates and many more substances.
We found also a significant difference between filtered and un filtered aquariumwater (proteins, phytoplankton.. ?)

That new version is a color comparison test. What is the primary purpose to use this test? Does it just tell me how dirty my water is?

What is "good" or "bad" reading for a reef tank?

Will this test be appropriate way to test and measure effectiveness of skimming?

What chemical principle does it use to create color difference?

I would like to understand what does this test actually measure before I buy it.

Thanks.

[Habib]

I would like to understand what does this test actually measure before I buy it.


You can't buy this version yet. I gave some information on what that version will measure and more details can certainly be supplied.

Will this test be appropriate way to test and measure effectiveness of skimming?


By measuring skimmate? Not really because skimmate is quite heterogeneous and also it's color can give some problems.

By measuring the tankwater using different skimmers or settings is something which can be done.

What is the primary purpose to use this test? Does it just tell me how dirty my water is?

Yes it can tell to a high extent if the water is "dirty". It can help to pinpoint tank problems. It can also tell what feeding or type of feeding does and how well the system can cope with it or not as far as organics is concerned. It will not tell anything about e.g. phosphate.

[Paul B]

You can easily tell if there are too many organics in the water but not really measure the actual amount. Before skimmers were invented we used to put an airline in the water with just a small amount of air coming out. When the bubbles hit the surface they should break instantly. The longer the bubbles last before bursting, the more organics are in the water. This is also how protein skimmers work. If you live by the sea just watch the waves as they crash. If there is foam left on the beach, the water is polluted. Simple.
Randy, now don't tell me how unconventional I am. Been doing this a long time. LOL
Paul

[Habib]

now don't tell me how unconventional I am

One hint: asphalt. :D

j/k :)

[Paul B]

One response. 32 year old reef continousely running reef.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, but do you know if your bubble test applies to aquaria without asphalt? :lol:

[Paul B]

Thats a hard one

[pszemol]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Yes, but do you know if your bubble test applies to aquaria without asphalt? :lol: I realise it is an insider joke, but what is going on with this asfalt?? :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Paul uses it for live rock.

To be fair, it is old asphalt. :D

[Habib]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Paul uses it for live rock.

To be fair, it is old asphalt. :D

I think that it was before the asphalt era:

Before skimmers were invented

The first article on skimming I found was from IIRC 1898 or so. :lol:

[Paul B]

Habib, thats when I got my skimmer, 1898

[Paul B]

Asphalt
http://

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You might need to try that again, Paul. Apparently, it is so old that the picture has faded. :D

[Paul B]

It was a piece of white asphalt so it is hard to see with the background.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

white asphalt

Oh, now it comes out. Paul, the rest of us call that aragonite. :D

[Habib]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
white asphalt

Oh, now it comes out. Paul, the rest of us call that aragonite. :D

ROFLMAO!!!!!! :lol:

Good one. :)

[Paul B]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_Asphalt_Rock_035-thumb.jpg

OK I will try this one more time. I think you guys are jealous because you have to be content using the same rock that everyone uses. Anyone can get aragonite. Now asphalt, thats another story.

[SPC]

Originally posted by Paul B
It was a piece of white asphalt so it is hard to see with the background.

I thought all asphalt was dark in color, why is your asphalt live rock white, Paul?
Steve

[Paul B]

I give up

[Habib]

Originally posted by Paul B
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_Asphalt_Rock_035-thumb.jpg

OK I will try this one more time. I think you guys are jealous because you have to be content using the same rock that everyone uses. Anyone can get aragonite. Now asphalt, thats another story.

Anyone can get aragonite. Now asphalt, thats another story.

I have been looking for thousands of miles for asphalt while driving my car on the highway. :)

BTW Paul, I'm just joking/kidding. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe it is aragaphalt. :lol:

Hey, Boomer, can you find that in any of your books??? :D

[Habib]

Perhaps it was initially Paul's intention to mimic the Dead Sea :) :

"Although not particularly attractive, chips of asphalt also decorate the Dead Sea and evoke images of the past. For example, there is an episode in Genesis, chapter 14.2 and 3, in which the kings of five cities - Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim and Bela (which is Zoar) - were defeated in battle and, while fleeing, fell into what seem to have been bitumen pits "in the Vale of Siddim which is the Salt Sea." "


from: http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/198603/the.dead.sea.crystals.htm

[Paul B]

"Dead Sea" thats a good one. See, you can't use any old live asphalt, it has to be New York City live asphalt. It has history. After you newbees keep a tank for a few more years, maybe twenty you will appreciate the beauty of asphalt not to mention all the bottles I also have in there. But again, not just any bottles, bottles that were thrown into the ocean during prohibition. Just keep buying all that "rare interesting" and "unusual" stuff you find in a store. Any of you have chain from a sunken ship? Randy can tell you it has those "chain " nutrients, keeps fish alive over 16 years. Of course you have to coat it with fiberglass resin so all those nutrients don't leak out all at once.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy__2__of_Asphalt_Rock_036.jpg

[Paul B]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_Bottle_001.jpg

Now that I think about it, my tank is just about asphalt, bottles, cement and rust. Randy, thats the secret to a successful tank.

[Paul B]

OK now, all you guys with "older" reefs with no asphalt post your pictures here in alphabatical order. There may not be room for all the entries.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_mini-Reef_Tank_019.jpg

[Boomer]

Hey, Boomer, can you find that in any of your books???

Maybe it is aragaphalt.

No, we have not named a rock that yet :lol:

However, I do know what " white asphalt" is :D It is common in tunnels as a pavement. I see it quite often. It is not black asphalt. It is an aggregate mix of white crushed stones and sands, applied on top of asphalt or cement pavements. Its purpose is to increase light reflection in tunnels and also allows less lighting during the night. It is also less abrasive and last much longer than cement or black asphalt. It is more durable than the often used cement in tunnels and requires no joints, like full cement pavement ( it is not fun doing repave jobs in tunnels, which often have to be shut down, a big reason for the stuff). The white asphalt is just a surface coating a couple of inches thick. The aggregate is usually binded with a resin/epoxy to keep it together.



There are also "white asphalt shingles", similar but not the same as the pavement. They are black asphalt shingles with a coating of white material to increase solar reflectance, so the roof stays cooler :D


There is also talk of using it more often in city streets to reduce intercity heating.

Hab, you must not spend much time on the highway or are blind or both:rollface:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Now that I think about it, my tank is just about asphalt, bottles, cement and rust. Randy, thats the secret to a successful tank.

Well, if that is the goal, it's hard to be disappointed. :D


FWIW, your tank does look nice. :)

No, we have not named a rock that yet

Thanks, Boomer. :)

[Habib]

Paul B's asphalt story :) :

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6279/ArticleBaldassano25years.html

[Paul B]

I forgot about that article. There is another one somewhere that I think came out in Marine Fish Monthly. Anyway, you don't have to read it.

See the hippo in this picture. He is about ten years old. It's those asphalt minerals or maybe it's the concrete that most of the other stuff is made out of. I have to get some of that white asphalt.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_Tank_008.jpg

[Paul B]

Must be a white hippo again.
What was this thread about anyway?

[Paul B]

Why do I bother. Today is a boating day.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_Tank_008.jpg

[Paul B]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_Tank_008.jpg
OK now why doesen't this picture work?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I fixed the images. Just some extra http's in the link. :)

[Mimbler1]

I agree with Paul's empirical organic concentration detection. I have always watched how many bubbles gather in the sump where the overflow dumps, to determine if maintenance needs to be done. I got an orp meter for Christmas this year, and I can predict the reading by looking at the bubbles in the sump. Of course, you can't use this method if you have fed recently or have had your hands in the tank, as those make the bubbles break.
Mike

[Paul B]

Finally someone who knows about organics and bubbles and he comes from Kansas. You other guys who live near the sea, go outside and look at the ocean where the waves break. Not the ocean in your fish tank, the big one outside. Go to a place that has marinas or garbage barges. (we have a lot of that in NY) You will see the bubbles last a long time before they break.
Paul

[Paul B]

Talk about organics, I just came back from my boat and the water at my marina is just full of oil, gas and who knows what. But it is also loaded with small fish. I just scooped up a few hundred baby somethings about 1/2" long and very skinny. My fish go crazy over this stuff. I don't tell them about the organics in the water where I collected the fish.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't tell them about the organics in the water where I collected the fish.


Maybe they like the greasy coating on the fish you collect. Makes them go down easier. :D

[Paul B]

I don't know but it makes them live to 16 years old.
Must be the 93 octane in the gas that my marina sells. Theres plenty of foot wide purple jellyfish this year too along with three and four foot stripped Bass. Water can't be all that bad.
I am still waiting to see those old tanks with pristine water and no asphalt. Can't seem to find any.
Today I will go out to a small deserted island in the Sound that was a big party place during prohibition. Since there is no one there the place is great for collecting. I get loads of amphipods and nice seaweed. I also get hermit crabs, fiddler crabs, green crabs and Japanese shore crabs for my invert tank.
Happy Fathers Day.
Paul

[pszemol]

Originally posted by Paul B
Today I will go out to a small deserted island in the Sound that was a big party place during prohibition. What island exactly do you refer to, Paul?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Today I will go out to a small deserted island in the Sound that was a big party place during prohibition.

Probably a good place to find encrusted bottles to start a new tank. :lol:

[Paul B]

The Island is named Huckleberry Island and it is about 1/2 mile off New Rochelle NY. It is about 5 miles from NYC. The island is about 1/4 mile long and is mainly forest and rock. There is a caretakers house which is just about falling down, there are small buildings filled with mattresses and cots. There are generators and a large gambling table, open air with a roof. The chairs are still there chained together. I dive around the island for lobsters and find many old bottles. One of them says "Dr Pharneys Old Time Reliable Tonic" I also have an "Eichler Beer" bottle. There is another interesting thing near there. Execution light house. It has been there almost 200 years. Once while diving around the lighthouse we rested on the rocks and saw that the sheetmetal door that has always been there was knocked down. We went inside and the place was filled with World War Two radio equipment. We could not swim any of this stuff to the boat so we decided to go back in a few days with a Zodiac, which we did only to find a barbed wire fence around the entire island. It is still there but we did find some fifty caliper machine gun ammo under the water. As a matter of fact I just came back from Huckleberry island a few minutes ago. How much off topic is this?
Paul

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How much off topic is this?


Medium, but not enough to close it. :D

[Paul B]

But there are "Fish" around the Island and plenty of "organic matter" to measure. Back on topic.

[Paul B]

Bottles from around Huckleberry Island loaded with "Organics"
2 of the bottles I found while diving the other two I made to look old (after I drank the liquor) There are about 8 of them in my reef.http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094bottles.jpg

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

about 8 of them in my reef.

Anything else about your reef that you need to confess right now? :D

Any old tires?

Junked car parts?

[Paul B]

As a matter of fact I have a chemistry revalation for you. I once put a 5 lb. "rock" in a small tank of shrimp and crabs for a few months. I found this rock while diving. It turned out to be a pully or some piece of machinery from a shipwreck that was all iron. The water was red and the "sand " was rust. Those shrimp and crabs were the healthiest animals I ever saw. I do have a chain from an old ship in my reef. I covered it in fiberglass resin to keep most of the iron in it. No problem. This is a hobby not rocket science. I experiment, sometimes I win sometimes not but my tank is always interesting, not like most tanks with the same old stuff. If I could find a tire to put in there I will definately do it. I told you once that there was an aquarium store near the Trade Center that had a full size toilet bowl in it along with bottles and other trash. It was a New York City biotope tank. Where do you think most people congregated in the store?
Paul

[SPC]

Originally posted by Paul B
Where do you think most people congregated in the store?
Paul

In the bathroom?
Steve

[pszemol]

Originally posted by Paul B
The Island is named Huckleberry Island and it is about 1/2 mile off New Rochelle NY. It is about 5 miles from NYC. Interesting - you can collect tropical animals near NYC? Did not know that... :confused: Or I missunderstood, and your "invert tank" is cold-water one...

[Paul B]

pszemol. Yes you did misunderstand me. My invert tank is a cold water tank but you can collect tropical fish in New York City. The Gulf Stream flows very close to the south shore of Long Island and we collect butterflies, seahorses, triggerfish, needlefish and a few others. I SCUBA dive for them but they are in shallow water near shore. I am sure they die in the winter. Some people have beautiful tropical tanks stocked with just NYC fish.
More proof that our water is OK.
Paul

[Paul B]

Here is a link to Huckleberry Island (if it works) But there is no picture. The next time I pass there which should be wednesday I will take a picture.
http://ny.audubon.org/iba/huckleberry.html