Will copper ever leave my live rock and silicone?

[alien98]

Hello, my girl accidently put saltwater Coppersafe in my tank to cure ich. The dosage would have been 7 teaspoons for 30gal.,she used 5 teaspoons. This dosage still killed my 3 anenomes,2 snails and 1 Y.Tang. The moment I found out I did a 4 gal. water change for the next 3 days.I changed my charcoal filter (lucky one was in when it was dosed) and added a bag of black diamond charcoal to the skilter for added filtering.This happened 2 weeks ago and I have done a total of 6 water changes.Now I have taken the charcoal out and put in a bag of CHEMI PURE.I plan on running it for 5 days then do a water change and return the regular filter in.Now I'm reading that the copper will be removed from the water but it is absorbed in my live rock and silicone in the inside of the tank.How long will this be stuck in the substrate?If it is still there will there always be a lethal dose being released in my tank?Is the best option to start over or what? If the copper is still there does that mean no more ich or no more anenomes?Its horrible when no one reads instructions.Stressed about this coppersafe,your feedback will be very helpfull.(all of my fish are fine,shrimp and lobster fine,crabs fine but my serpant stars are slugish and not eating,2 Konchs are still alive which is strange)Thanks,Alien98:confused: :mad2: :confused: :mad2: :mad2:

[Reefmedic79]

If you have inverts that are still alive I would wait a while to see if they truely survive. If they do you will probaly be safe with some inverts. If I remember correctly Argonite absorbs copper and therefore thier will always be copper in your sandbed and LR. Since the Anemones died you will probably no longer be able to keep them.

[JoeMack]

IME after using it once, 5 years of in my FW tank and converted to salt my inverts stayed alive. Hope this help

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not believe that you can save the rock and sand, IMO. At least I would not try. I would toss it out, or at least keep it in a QT tank or something.

The tank itself, and any equipment can be cleaned and reused.

[alien98]

Thanks Randy for the reply, but do you know of any proof that lethal levels of copper will remain in the sand and LR??? If so using an absorbent resin all the time,would this take care of the copper?How long does it take to disapear from the substrate?I just put 10 pounds of LS on the old.I'm talking about throwing away $200 or more of LS and LR.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, I do not have proof that lethal levels will remain under any particular circumstances, either with or without treatment.

The problem is that it can remain attached to the substrate for a long time until a bit of the rock or sand is dissolved in some fashion (like when eaten by an organism).

[Blackgagt1]

not coppersafe you should have used cupramine

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Removing the sand and keeping the rock would be a big improvement over keeping both, IMO. The sand has a very high surface area for binding.

[alien98]

Blackgagt 1 thanks for the advice but I never used the coppersafe,It was done with out my knowledge of it.I use Greenex in my tank with usualy good results.I'm now in a bind cause of the coppersafe.

[alien98]

Randy my ? is there has to be an allowable ratio of coppesafe versus the amount of water.Should I find out from coppersafe the amount in it versus the water?Are you telling me that if any body uses 1 drop in there tank they have to start over?Still trying to grasp a solution before tearing it down. It is easy for you to say to remove it but hard for me to do it unless necessary.It could be FOWLR right?Then in some amount of time it would be safe for invertabrates with no exoskeletons right?I want to know how long with that amount of dose are we talking?

[alien98]

Coppersafe is a chealated copper by the way.

[alien98]

Still waiting for a reply.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Patience. I do have a day job. :D

If you used enough to kill things, then IMO you used enough to not make it worth the risk of continued deaths. But that is just my recommendation. I cannot prove that it will be a problem.

Ron Shimek has stated that the 10-40 ppb copper already present in marine aquaria in the absence of added Coppersafe is causing harm. So it stands to reason that added copper on top of that COULD be harmful.

[skeets]

I think you are trying to hard to make it work.
I know what it would be like to remove all of your rock and sand... but honestly if you want a sure fire safe method(which im assuming you do), thats the way to go.

I have didledaddled around in the past with pests in my tanks(aiptasia, bubble algae, red bugs, etc) and now i go to extremes. If this were me, I would no longer hesitate to start over if i wanted a succesful reef. I think if you half do it, you are going to get half done results and livestock will suffer in the tank.

[alien98]

I thank all of you for your response and honesty. I'm going to suck it up and throw away my sand and live rock. Your right in saying I don't want to do it half way. I think I'm going to throw away the Coppersafe to for no more mistakes.Appreciate your time.Later,Alien98

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd keep the rock in a QT tank. :)

[alien98]

Randy you think I should throw away my sand still? I could just leave the whole thing set up as a QT tank. I do have a 75 gal. I can start on early now for a better display tank. I also wanted to ask you what is the best way to clean the live rock?Is bleaching it going to do anything to copper?Keeping it for a QT sounds better than throwing it away.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If it is just for a Qt tank, or a FOWLR tank, keeping both might work. I'd be inclined to keep the rock but not the sand.

No, there nothing that you can do to the rock to be sure to get the copper out, short of dissolving some of it away in acid. I'd just do a salt water rinse.

[alien98]

Thanks for your help Randy , my last questions are how long will trace amounts of copper be in my live rock? Does the amount slowly decrease over time until there is none?Has anybody ever did a study to see how long copper will last in live rock or substrate?6 months a year etc.....Later,Alien98

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have not seen any experiments on how long it hangs around under different circumstances. Sorry.

[alien98]

Randy thanks but I was hoping since you are the master in chemistry, you would have a little more knowledge of this. I was hoping you would at least know someone who does. I definetly know I'm not the only one who has had this copper problem. Being your the chemistry moderator and this problem happens in this hobby. I think it needs to be addressed so that other people don't throw there money down the drain. This means people are making suggestions,opinions and cures not based on fact.My point is if I had 1ooo gal. reef and $5000 in rock and sand and somebody screwed up and put a quarter cup of coppersafe in it.Do they start over and lose $5000?1 drop-5 teaspoons there has to be a ratio and a formula on how long it would be present and how lethal it would be as it dissipates over time. If you could please ask someone who might know or suggest to someone to do an experiment for some fact.I know copper is present in our tanks which is bad and anything added is worst. I'm not trying to tick you off by no means yet I still think somebody has has ran experiments on this subject.Thanks,Alien98

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You are talking as if it is my product that caused the problem, so I should find a solution.

Bear in mind that I have a real job, and that real job is to find cures for terrible human diseases, like cancer and MS. So when I decide what to study, helping some hobbyists save live rock that they misused is somewhat lower on the priority list.

That said, I do have some answers, and when I do not, it is usually because the answers are not available, not because I just didn't bother to check.

The issues around metal toxicity in aquaria, especially when attached to rock and sand is extraordinarily complex. We have discussed them in detail in the past. Here's a thread with more than 200 posts where we debate these complex issues:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100591

Sure, there is clearly an amount that is safe, or at least not a huge risk. My aquarium already has 10 ppb copper in it, and I consider that reasonably safe, although it may not be optimal.

That amounts to about 3.8 milligrams of copper (10 mg cupper sulfate) in a 100 gallon tank.

However, 10 times that amount (38 milligrams in a 100 gallon tank) is likely a problem.

I discuss the concerns about metals in this article:

Reef Aquaria with Low Soluble Metals
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/index.htm

and here:

Tap Water in Reef Aquaria
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm

from it:

"How much copper is too much? That is difficult to say, and certainly varies from organism to organism. In a recent test, Ron Shimek added copper to natural seawater and looked at the effect on sea urchin larvae. He found that concentrations above 10 ppb decreased the larval survival after 48 h, and that concentrations above 100 ppb killed all of them. Whether that translates into particular copper levels to be concerned about in typical reef aquaria is open to discussion. Nevertheless, it points out that copper is potentially toxic at levels well below the EPA action level of 1.3 ppm. That hypothesis is well supported by the literature on copper toxicity. Canadian Water Quality Guidelines for the Protection of Aquatic Life suggest that copper be kept to less than a few ppb in fresh water, but they do not provide a salt water recommendation. "


Since you added something on the order of 60,000 ppb, you are well into the toxic zone, even if only 0.1% of the copper stuck to the substrate and might later come off.

[alien98]

Thanks Randy ,I know you have more important things to do.Sorry for the ? . All I wanted was more insight and you just gave me some links for other discussions.I figured aquarium chemistry would be like legos to a kid to you sorry.I don't think it was your product at all but I wanted to know how long it takes to dissipate.No more ?'s for you have a good day.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Sorry if my response above was curt.

FWIW, these questions are exactly what this forum is for, and I'm happy to try to answer all that I can. You just have to understand that at the cutting edge, facts will run out and then the answers turn to opinion about what to do.