White cottonie stuff on star polyps

[beamer]

Hi Eric! I am very much a newbie to this hobbie. I appreciate any help you can give me.

On my star polyps I have recently noticed ( a couple of weeks now) some small round cotton looking stuff like the end of a q -tip. Tonight I noticed that it was also occurring on another rock with star polyps. I see these first thing in the morning before the tentacles come out and after the lights have been out. They surround the little purple polyp. There are probably about 20 of these q-tip or small cotton ball looking things. One person has suggested that they may be sponges. Doesn't seem to be spreading a whole lot more at this point.

What is this and what is causing it? What can I do to stop it?

This is a preexisting 120 gl rr tank that I had moved to my home about 8 wks ago. We goofed and used the original sand bed And things haven't stabilized yet. I'm told my source of high nitrates and phosphates is from my sand bed. --3.5 in. According the previous owners journal he never had any problems with his tank. The tank looks great as we speak.

I have a 120 gl rr with LS and a60 lbs of LR.
I use Pc lighting 2x 96 watts, 2x 10,000K. I run the lights about 8-10 hours a day. I have cut back some because of a little
green algae and cyano forming. I use a protein skimmer and the past week I have added 2 powerheads. (this has helped some with the cyano and green algae) I use a Sump and fuge. This past week I have added macro algae to the fuge.
What do I need to do in order to keep these things from continuing?

I am having a problem with high nitrates and high phosphates at this time . Would that have anything to do with it?

Temp 79
salinity 1.026 (I have a refractometer now, this will be coming down with today's water change)
Nitrites 0.1,
Amonia 0
Nitrates 50- 75 ( Had been higher)
Phosphates- off the chart
pH 8.0-8.1
Calcium 490
Alkalinitly 9.6 dKH
Magnesium 1260 ppm

I have a rabbit fish, regal tang, yellow tang, 3 chromis, 4 lyretail anthias, clam, coral beauty, clark clown, bta, 2xzebra wrasse, christmas wrasse, 2x gobies, spotted hawk, two spotted hogfish, snails and a couple of shrimp. Fox coral, frogspawn, 2x open brains, green and brown button polyps, pearl bubble, ricordia mushrooms, star polyps, I think a plate coral, galaxia, toadstool leather, fuzzie mushrooms, devils hand, hammer coral, kenya tree.

Just added BTA 2-3 weeks ago.

In order to decrease the phosphates I was told not to feed the fish daily. I have a pretty heavy bioload, however the previous owner never had any problems when he had it.

For the last 2 -3 weeks I've been feeding very lightly. 1/2 frozen cube in stead of one cube along with a tiny bit of flakes added to selcon, given every 3-4 days instead of daily. A piece of Kelp every few days, 3 caps of phtyoplankton every few day. Coralvite once a week with some Lugols.

I've been doing water changes weekly. Started with 18-20 gls and have progressed up to 30-35 gls. Will try for a 40 gl change today or tomorrow.

To correct the problem with phosphates and nitrates I plan on removing my sandbed as has been suggested by rc staff and others.

About 2 weeks ago I had a Lawnmower Blenny and a grasping xenia die.

Above my star polyps is a flaming torch and that's about the only thing it could have contact with. There are a few surrounding mushrooms and brown button polyps. Sorry, I don't yet know the scientific names.

Here's a link to some photos labeled white stuff. If you are interested click at the top on back to photos and it will take you back to my other albums. The one labeled 2004-05- is the album of tank pics that is most current and I think you'll agree it looks pretty good despite the chemistry problems.
Sorry these aren't real clear. Still learning to use the camera.
http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/periotherapist2001/album?.dir=/12a9&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/periotherapist2001/my_photos

Thanks for any tips or advice. Just a little discouraged because a little bit of everything has gone wrong since I got the tank and not knowing anything about the hobby has made it more difficult. I had not planned on buying a tank at this time, it just kind of fell into my lap. Now I've found a little crack in the top right hand corner of my tank.:eek1: Fortunately it appears to be on the outside of the tank right under the canopy.

Thanks for your help,

Cindy

[PUGroyale]

Geez cindy...long post...i skipped reading it to offer my humble opinion. I had a similar "fungus" on mine. I tried a peroxide/ tank water dip recommended on this site. I was able to remove the piece so It worked rather well. Good luck.

[EricHugo]

Hi Cindy - that first photo is a bryozoan. Very common in reef tanks. I can't tell what the other things are on the mat, but sponges are common amogst the stolons of star polyps. I doubt it is a fungus or that you need to use any dips. What you do need is a functioning reef tank.

I ordinarily don't field set-up questions in this forum, but in this case I am going to make an exception. I defintiely do not like the idea of you not feeding at least once a day and you should be able to feed a ton if the tank is running right. What skimmer is it, what powerheads? Also, what additives, and hwat are you feeding and how much? I'll post more after getting the reponses.

In the interim, its time to start bailing water, and a lot of it. You pretty much want to exchange 100% of the water within a week or so. I would do 20 gallons every day for a week. That's less than a bucket of salt, and it will take care of the situation so that by time you finish with this thread, you'll be ready to take it from there.

[PUGroyale]

Yeah...Like that guy knows anything... = )

[beamer]

Thank you for your response Eric!!

So what your saying is that with respect to the white stuff on the polyps I don't need to worry about that? That's good to hear.

Eric, I have started feeding the fish every other day because I was feeling guilty about going 4 days to a week. I was told I needed to do this in order to get down the nitrates and phosphates, although it didn't seem to bother them any. As of tonight I will start feeding daily again as you suggest.

I am running an Aqua C EV 180 with a 120 gl tank. I have just recently added the power heads,(just the last week or so) before then there were none. (previous owner said they weren't needed) I have a Maxi-jet 600 and can't tell what the other one is. It is larger with a nozel that goes back and forth. I've been told that I need something that will move more water. What would you recommend? My husband was wondering about the Tunze 6000. Kind of pricey but if they are worth it I will buy a couple of them with the controller.

I am feeding mostly San Franciscos frozen brine shrimp and their Multi pak. I've mostly been feeding them 1/2 of a cube a day with a couple of drops of Selcon. Sometimes one cube. I daily clip on a strip on Nori. I feed a tiny bit of flake food, and everyother day I feed 3-4 caps of phytoplankton, weekly I give them coral-vite and 4 drops of Lugols. I'm pretty much following what the previous owner did.

I did add some buffer this past week cause my pH was a little low. I've added some Amquel for the nitrates and use Phos Ban in a bag for the phosphates Started using Kents nitrate sponge this past week, and have used some carbon. I don't know how often I can use it. I've been using it 3 days at a time and then waiting a week or two before adding more.

Just got in a Magnum 350 and will start using it.

I'll start bailing water as you mentioned starting tomorrow. No sleep last nite due to a storm, the power went out and I freaked. Don't know how long it had been out . I woke up at 4am. At 5 ran to Wal-Mart and bought a generator and got it going. Power was out 11 hrs. Everyone is fine and accounted for. Got to get some sleep tonight so I can work tomorrow. Wasn't worth a flip today.

Are you saying that by doing these daily water changes that I won't have to throw out my sand bed and start over? If so, that would be absolutely wonderful!! I will get busy making some more ro/di water tonight. I have 40-50 gls of salt water made up already so I'll be ready to get with it tomorrow.

Thanks so much for your help and your advice. I'm ready to start enjoying the tank instead of worrying about it. I've even lost weight over the stress of dealing with the numerous things that have happened with this tank. Actually that was a positive outcome of it.:D

Cindy

[EricHugo]

>>So what your saying is that with respect to the white stuff on the polyps I don't need to worry about that? That's good to hear.<<

No, not really. I'm saying I doubt it is a fungus, and it looks like a sponge but I can't tell. It may be something to worry about, but since I can't tell for sure what it is, I can't be sure. I doubt it is something to worry about.

>>Eric, I have started feeding the fish every other day because I was feeling guilty about going 4 days to a week. I was told I needed to do this in order to get down the nitrates and phosphates, although it didn't seem to bother them any. As of tonight I will start feeding daily again as you suggest.<<

Starving a tank is not the right solution. In the process, other things starve, die, and then contribute to nutrients anyway. But, your nutrients are a problem. Starving the fish isn't the answer.

>>I am running an Aqua C EV 180 with a 120 gl tank. I have just recently added the power heads,(just the last week or so) before then there were none. (previous owner said they weren't needed) I have a Maxi-jet 600 and can't tell what the other one is. It is larger with a nozel that goes back and forth. I've been told that I need something that will move more water. What would you recommend? My husband was wondering about the Tunze 6000. Kind of pricey but if they are worth it I will buy a couple of them with the controller.<<

You have a major issue with water flow far far too low for that tank. This is a big problem. I am not sure Maxijets would ever be able to provide enought flow for a 120, although perhaps if you stuck 8-10 of them along the sides, maybe. THe Tunze streams are very pricy but IMO one of the most amazing products on the market. For your tank, this will be like going from a 1972 Chevy Nova to a 2004 BMW M3. You don't need to use Tunze, but you do needs lots more water flow and without question Tunze would be the way to go if you want to spend for them. Otherwise, I would look into closed-loop extrnal pump, use of eductors, build a surge, or use larger powerheads of other brands, most of which I think are awful. I'd be open to hear others opinion on other powerheads that perhaps I have not used lately. Maxijets are good, but too small for larger tanks. I have four of the 1200's on a 55 gallon tank in my lab, and its marginal.

>>I am feeding mostly San Franciscos frozen brine shrimp and their Multi pak. I've mostly been feeding them 1/2 of a cube a day with a couple of drops of Selcon. Sometimes one cube. I daily clip on a strip on Nori. I feed a tiny bit of flake food, and everyother day I feed 3-4 caps of phytoplankton, weekly I give them coral-vite and 4 drops of Lugols. I'm pretty much following what the previous owner did. <<

OK, so use the brine shrimp and the multipack - at least a cube. Ditch the Selcon for now (good product, but not right now), use Nori maybe once or twice a week, ditch the flake food for now, ditch the phytoplankton for now, ditch the coral-vite entirely, and you can stop adding iodine.

>>I did add some buffer this past week cause my pH was a little low. I've added some Amquel for the nitrates and use Phos Ban in a bag for the phosphates Started using Kents nitrate sponge this past week, and have used some carbon.<<

Do not add Amquel to a reef tank - ever!! PhosBan is fine, but expensive and you need to just do wate rchanges...cheaper and better solution. Nitrate sponge does not workl. Again, water changes are cheaper and better. Carbon is a good idea.

> I don't know how often I can use it. I've been using it 3 days at a time and then waiting a week or two before adding more.

Just got in a Magnum 350 and will start using it.<<

Why? Do not use a mechanical filter on a reef tank unless it is just for the carbon.

>>I'll start bailing water as you mentioned starting tomorrow. No sleep last nite due to a storm, the power went out and I freaked. Don't know how long it had been out . I woke up at 4am. At 5 ran to Wal-Mart and bought a generator and got it going. Power was out 11 hrs. Everyone is fine and accounted for. Got to get some sleep tonight so I can work tomorrow. Wasn't worth a flip today.<<

I hate that...wish I could tell you how many nights I've been up doing the same.

>>Are you saying that by doing these daily water changes that I won't have to throw out my sand bed and start over? If so, that would be absolutely wonderful!! I will get busy making some more ro/di water tonight. I have 40-50 gls of salt water made up already so I'll be ready to get with it tomorrow. <<

How much sand is in there again? And what kind of sand?

>>Thanks so much for your help and your advice. I'm ready to start enjoying the tank instead of worrying about it. I've even lost weight over the stress of dealing with the numerous things that have happened with this tank. Actually that was a positive outcome of it. <<

LOL. Well, nothing is worse than a cesspool reef tank, and nothing more enjoyable than one that is running well.

[michaelg]

One question I did not see asked or maybe I missed it- what are you using for "source" water to make your salt mix? Do you run it through a filter such as an RO/DI? Run the tests on the salt after mixed, but before doing a water change. Could be a source of a lot of the chemistry problems here.

[beamer]

Thanks again for your reply Eric.

Don't worry , I will no longer starve my fish and feed them daily. I don't like missing a meal myself!

As of now I will ditch using coralvite,iodine phytoplanakton amquel and nitrate sponge as you suggest. I have used very little of these except for the phytoplankton.

Was going to go ahead and do a water change last night but power was going off and on again. Same bad weather expected tonight. I'll get to the water changes just as soon as the power permits me to.

I have about 3 in. of argonite??sp? sand. It is a small grain not the crushed.

I have just gotten the Magnum 350 in and will only be using it as needed for carbon and to polish the water.

Before, I failed to mention that I am running my 120 gl tank with an external pump Gen-X mak4. Based on this info do you still feel that the Tunze PH are the best choice and how many?

Someone was asking about my water. I use Ro/Di that I make at home. My TDS reads 0.

If I can provide you with any more info please let me know.

My computer at home has been knocked out by the storm I was able to take a few minutes today to use the internet at work, so please excuse my delay in replying.

Thanks again so much!! Cindy

[EricHugo]

With that pump, it makes a big difference - is the whole pump dedicated as a return pump?

[beamer]

Originally posted by EricHugo
With that pump, it makes a big difference - is the whole pump dedicated as a return pump?
Hi Eric,
Yes, that is all that the Gen-x pump does. Just return. It actually creates a pretty good current inside but apparently not enough. My sand looks a little better since putting in the 2 smaller power heads . I am still considering the Tunze.

Just wondering, should there be any problem putting my tank up against an air conditiong return. It's a few inches from the wall so that air can still get around to it plus there is another large air return directly around the corner. (my tank sits at that corner.)

Air flow wise I think I'm fine, but is there any chance of my airconditiong system rusting out on me? There is a little rust on the air return behind the tank. I've been putting a filter up in front of the return from time to time (especially during water changes, I'm kind of messey) but then I think it may cause my tank water to get a little warmer than I'd like . I have a little clip on fan on it now and it keeps it between 78-80. Maybe there's something else I could do that wouldn't be as thick but still help bubbles keep from splashing out of the sump onto the airconditioner return vent. Any ideas?

Did a 40 gl water change yesterday, making more water now. My numbers did come down: nitrate 45 and phosphates about 1.5. At least they are not off the chart any more.

Live stock still looks good. Still have those white spots on the star polyps but I'm not going to worry about them any more.

Thanks, Cindy

[EricHugo]

Cindy - just keep going on those changes...get it below ten, for sure, preferably much lower. As for rsut, I have found anything remotely near a sw tank that can rust will rust.

On the water flow, the GenX will do a nice job - might want to consider a seaswirl or some other oscillation device, or even an eductor, and that would mximize the flow from that return.

[beamer]

Originally posted by EricHugo
On the water flow, the GenX will do a nice job - might want to consider a seaswirl or some other oscillation device, or even an eductor, and that would mximize the flow from that return. [/B]

Eric, why would I want to minimize the flow from my return? I thought that was a good thing.

Cindy

[EricHugo]

maximize...not minimize...sorry for typo.

[Forestal]

Cindy, if i may add my small amount of advice. I am no expert, but i hope i can help.

when moving the tank, the deep sand bed may have suffereda lot of die off, which will recover, but you may look into reseeding it with some live sand from other reefers, and online vendors to get some good diverse life in there to help as a bio filter. (check out Dr. ron's forum )

I commend your efforts, it sounds like you are putting in a lot of work and doing a good job keeping your critters alive and well.
Good luck.

[rufio173]

Hey Cindy,

I see that you are still at it with the tank... Is it getting any better? As you can see, many of the suggestions that have been given are those shared by me. The Tunze are a good investment if you do decide to go for it, but they are large but just one 3100 unit will do wonders for your tank. If you don't want to go that route, the Seios I hear are pretty decent. They only put out 1/4-1/3 the flow of the larger Tunze streams, and aren't controllable... yet, but they are also about 1/5-1/4 the price so I think it would be worth a try if you decided to go that route...

Also, another plug for the barebottom tanks... it must be noted that european reefers have kept successful reef tanks for well over a decade using the bare bottom berlin method. It's a shame that we don't see more of these tanks here as it seems that everyone is in love with the deep sand bed. If you do decide to go barebottom, I also second the suggestion by Eric to add an eductor (fairly cheap... $22 dollars to buy one and $5 to make your own and with a pressure rated pump, definitely can increase flow 3-5X supposedly) to the Gen-X return, but angle down toward the bottom of your tank so you can keep detritus afloat. If you just couldn't give up the sand, then you could also employ larger grain substrate and keep detritus from falling and then resting in the substrate with lots of flow in the tank.

Once again, hope all goes well with the tank.
Just a quick note FWIW, I've got the Gen-X mak 4 pump as well and found that if you expanded the inlet to 1" with some PVC, that it drastically increased flow (haven't expanded the outlet, but may also help as well... definitely can see it helping by reducing frictional forces)!

Peace,
John H.

[rufio173]

Oh, one additional thing that you should also consider with the barebottom setup is that it is a little bit easier to keep the tank alive with just cheap, battery powered air bubblers since you don't have a massive amount of life in the sand which is dependent on a constant supply of oxygen that must be brought to it by good water flow.

I'm such a barebottom activist... hehe. Sorry if I am ticking anybody off, I don't mean to... I just believe that it has a much higher chance of long term success if implemented correctly. I'm not saying that tanks with a dsb can't be successful.

Peace,
John H.

[Forestal]

John, There are many different ways to approach a reef tank that work well. It all depends on how we like our tanks. I don't see your remarks as inflammatory, just very helpful. have a good one. :)

[rufio173]

I totally agree Dan! :)

Peace,
John H.

[beamer]

Thanks Dan, I am trying. Thanks for the advice. I had been hearing about seeding with sand from a number of different tanks, it sounds like a good idea to me.

I'm sure that we will be going with about 3 in of sand. My hubby said he didn't like the way the bare bottom looks. I also like the sand.

Cindy

[beamer]

Hi John!

I know you are glad that all of your exams are over with.Thanks John for your suggestions. I've heard eductors mentioned several times. What is it and what does it do?

My husband and I have decided on the Tunze unit. It had been suggested that I get one Tunze 6000. Would that be too strong for my tank? My tank is 4ft x 2ft x 2ft. My corals are all LPS. I didn't know if it would blow them around too much. So you think that the 3100 would be the one to go with?

What is larger grain substrate? Is that CC or what? The sand I looked at at Petland was 1-2 mm. I guess about the size of sugar grain or a tad larger.

Thanks,
Cindy

[beamer]

Just wondering. I've been visiting with someone on another board that has been in this hobby for about 30 years. He has a 650 gl tank that looks absolutely amazing.

Since I have a high bioload what he is suggesting is to use 1-2 in of CC. Enough to cover the bottom and for some of the critters to enjoy. He feels that by doing this that I can have better control of the tank since I could easily siphon the CC every week to help take some of the load off of the natural filtration.

What do you guys think? It sounds pretty good to me. My husband still wants sand.

Cindy

[rufio173]

Hey Cindy,

Yeah, the sand is definitely a hard thing to let go since it does look more natural at first. It takes a long time to structure the barebottom tank so it doesn't look like it's barebottom (colonize with ricordea and zoanthids or fill with fungia corals). So, yes I totally agree with the person who suggested the very light layer of CC or you could get the larger grain sizes of aragonite... not the sugar sized sand. I would suggest an even lighter layer of sand, possibly just 1/2" that way it might be easier to blow out the detritus and keep it from filling the crevices as quickly, thus lowering the amount of maintenance (siphoning) that you must make.

An eductor is something like a venturi (a fast stream of water through a small aperture creates a vacuum to pull in air which creates bubbles for your skimmer) in how it works. You basically push a concentrated fast stream of water through a bottleneck of sorts that will make the velocity of the water even faster and then in the same way, a sort of low pressure zone is created and this sucks in even more water which can increase flow by 3 to 5X depending on the speed of flow of water. I've been told that they work much better with pressure rated pumps and since you have a pressure rated pump, you would be set! You can do a search for eductors and I'm sure you'll find a few informative threads. (I think that with a $22 investment, you could get much more turbulent flow out of that Mak4 return)

I congragulate you on your decision to get a Tunze stream. Definitely get the one that delivers ~3100 GPH per gallon that is controllable. The controller is what really makes the stream worth the money you pay for it. You can throttle the stream back and forth anywhere between 30% to 100% of flow. Therefore, you can adjust the amount of flow to the conditions that your corals will like. But be warned though, the stream may slightly restructure the sand layout in the tank.

I'm so glad I'm done with school... at least for awhile and now I can just relax and plan my 60 gallon cube. I just wish I had more money... but oh well, we must make do with what we have.

Best of luck to you and hopefully, you'll get things figured out... I was wondering, what are you driving your Aqua C with?

Peace,
John H.

[beamer]

I'm driving my Aqua C skimmer with a mak 7. It was second on the list that the company recommended. I think the first one they listed was a dolphin. I don't know if there is much difference between those two or not.

If I understand you correctly you are saying you prefer bare bottom, nosand, no cc no nothing excep you have the entire bottom covered with coral? Wall to wall?

If I do go with a .5 in -1 in of sand would I still make a carpet out of the bottom of the tank with corals or does it have to be bare in order to do it?

If I do the wall to wall carpet with the corals will I still have to siphon the tank every week?

Don't worry about the money, do what you can do and enjoy it. Before you know it you'll have all kinds of serious money rolling in and just think what you could do with some of that!

Thanks and take care! (I'll check into the eductor)

Cindy

[rufio173]

Hey Cindy,

Yeah, you wouldn't need to do as much maintenance on the bottom of your tank with the bottom covered in corals, but you'd just have to have some flow constantly clearing the corals and other things of detritus... that's the beauty of the barebottom, you don't have to really worry about substrate being disturbed and flying all about in the tank.

You could try to get corals to colonize the substrate, but things like zoanthids and ricordea don't cling to or colonize really fine substrate very well, you'd have to get really large substrate like rock rubble for the corals to attach to and then you still have to siphon the rubble every now and then, or once again keep the detritus in suspension.

The thing is that, the more flow and better you have your system setup to keep detritus in the water column, the less maintenance you'll have to do on the sandbed since it should get picked up by the skimmer.

If I were to go with any substrate, it would be with a very fine layer of Caribsea reefgrade aragonite I think that is not really sugar fine and is heavy enough not to blow away with a lot of flow. It's a compromise between immediate gratification or delaying it, in that you have the substrate to give you a more natural appearance, but you can easily remove the substrate if you want to add zoanthids to certain sections and let them take hold and then remove more of the substrate as you go along. You could try it that way.

I just think you should really consider removing the old sand and replacing with a thin layer of new substrate. I would also suggest diluting the concentration of the water you test by a certain amount so you can guage the true amount of phosphate that your tank contains. Another test I would recommend is siphoning up the water from the substrate with a bit of substrate, letting it settle and diluting that as well and see if it is any higher than the phosphate concentration in the water column.

Cheers,
John H.

I'm certain that you will get this under control in time, but I just think that it will take much longer if you keep the old sand.

[beamer]

Don't worry, with out a doubt I will be getting rid of the old sand bed. I know we will use sand I just need to decide what kind and how much. I like what is in there now and it sounds like what you were suggesting. Not quite as fine as sugar.

I'll try running the test with the sand and dilution. May not be able to do it this week. We're responsible for the sound system at an old timey, under the arbor, church camp that's about 70 miles from here. That will go on for a week and we'll be there every night after work for the next week.

Thanks for the suggestions,

Cindy