Lifecycle of red bugs?

[RyanH]

Eric,

I have the acro red bugs on some of my corals. I am thinking about moving all my acropora to a single tank and treating that tank with Interceptor.

My question relates to how long I should keep acropora out of my other tanks to allow the red bugs to complete their life cycles with no host and eventually die out. Would this strategy work for clearing my other tanks of the red bugs?

Do you suspect that I could keep other corals (montipora sp?, pocillipora sp?, zoanthids?) in the tank, or are the red bugs not that host specific?

Thank you for your help.

Ryan

[MCsaxmaster]

I don't believe anyone is aware of the life cycle of these things yet. I have also heard that there look to be more than one form. That certainly complicates things. Treating the affected colonies as you have proposed may work--or it may not. There may be an intermediate form during the life cycle of these critters which may well stay in the tank. Not to step on Eric's toes, but I don't believe anyone has any idea at this point.

Cheers,

-Chris

[EricHugo]

Actually, I am getting there. The broodpouch on the bugs would suggest, though not prove, direct development. Also, copepods often have very complex life cycles with long larval durations. The sprread of these things in tanks would indicate that they are direct developers, although that is my next step in working with them and is in progress.

I have also found they will last about 3-4 days without Acropora before they die. I had two actually make it five days, but they were reduced to minor twitching for the last day and I do not think they would be capable of surviving at that point.

I also found Interceptor to be only moderately effective, and I think treating a tank full of other crustaceans and worms with an anti-helmith is a bad idea. To put them all in a separate tank would solve that problem, but if you are going to that trouble, you'll be done quicker and better using Lugol's. I had very good success with a magnifying glass, 5 ml Lugol's per liter of water, and a 2-5 minute dip. They are excellent swimmers, and they will jump off a colony quickly if disturbed, so be careful when moving colonies. I also find them very tenacious on the skeleton, and hard to physically remove if they want to stay put. You may still see a few after the Lugol's dip, but I am quite sure they are dead - use the magnifying glass to confirm that.

In terms of alternate hosts, I placed 10 bugs in a small Petri dish with tiny fragments of five other species - Pocillopora, Seriatopora, two species on Montipora, and Pavona. The bugs never reacted to the other corals, even when they repeatedly buped into them. Instead,they kept swimming to the surface, pushing against the sides of the dish. Even after my trying to submerge them so they would interact repeatedly with the other genera, nothing. After three days, their activity slowed, and they were largely weakened to the poitn where they were trapped by surface tension of water at the surface. At day four, they were all dead. So it appears they are specific to Acropora only.

[MCsaxmaster]

Very interesting Eric, keep us posted :)

Cheers,

-Chris

[RyanH]

Wow! Thanks for the information. This seems to turn alot of the information i have read on its ear. Since my red bugs are primarily in my frag tank, the thought of a Lugol's dip is much more palatable.

Regarding the Interceptor, why do you think people have had such apparent success using it.

Thank very much for the information. Incredibly helpful.

Ryan

[EricHugo]

We used two heartworm medicines - Interceptor and HeartGuard- took a long time to kill bugs, and even after 24 hours, some were still alive. Like I said, this is ok in a QT tank if you have the time and dollars to spare and can procure the drug. To be fair, the corals tolerate the meds well, but it is defintely not an approved use of the drug, and treating the tank will, if it is effective against these crustaceans, be effective against all the other things you don''t want to kill - not the least of which would be the biomass pollution resulting from mass bug, bacteria, and worm kill of a well populated tank.

Ordinary 10 drop/liter Lugol's is basically worthless, too, but we used 5-10ml liter for times from 30 seconds to 10 minutes. At five to ten minutes, the 5ml dosage stressed the corals, and they had some bleaching. The 10ml dosage was worse. But, at less than 5 minutes for the 5ml dosage, and 2-3 minutes for the 10ml dosage, all corals tolerated it fine, no bleaching, and 100% kill of bugs. The vast majority had died and turned black, falling to the bottom, within seconds. I pipetted a few bugs off the coral and put them directly into a dish with that strength Lugol's under a dissecting scope and they went catatonic almost instantly and were dead within 30 seconds. I am not sure what allows those remaining few to survive for up to a few minutes, but some do. None survive beyond it. We were able to reduce that time to 1-2 minutes at 5ml dosage if a pipette was used to dislodge any stragglers that failed to jump off the coral or die outright in that time period. Like I said, a magnifying glass will confirm that they are clear. Of course, those corals have to be put into a QT tank for the period during which the bugs remain alive in the tank without a host because some do jump off when you move a coral in the tank - and they swim very well and frequently swim stright back towards other Acropora - amazing to watch.

If it turns out they have a complex life cycle or actually do have other potential hosts, then we're in trouble. But, so far so good and no reappearance after treating around 100 or more Acropora of many species.

[AlgaeMan]

Eric,
Is there any way to treat an entire system with Lugols instead if dipping each coral to kill the bugs?

[MiddletonMark]

AM ... I think the problem would be doing a 5 minute `dip' of the whole tank.
[when dipping, after 5 minutes you remove to Iodine-drip-free water. Unless you can do a 100% water change in a minute or so ... IMO it will be a problem [as the iodine dip would last very long]

Also, I'd think the Iodine will mess with most bacteria in your tank ... not really something recommended system-wide IMO.

Just my take ... but an interesting question indeed!

[AlgaeMan]

Thanks Mark. Looks like I'll have to use Interceptor to get rid of those things.

[MiddletonMark]

If this is one treatment [Interceptor is multiple] then I'd be darn tempted to remove all Acropora from the system for a week and treat and house them in a tank setup for the purpose. If that's what turns out to work with others ... IMO is the best bet. Scares me to kill a lot of good life in my tank just for one problematic little beast.

I'd love to work in a `QT' or hospital process like we do with fish. Not sure if this could be made to work ... and might not be possible for you with a 215 ... but seems least traumatic to the system. [lose all copepods for one variety? doesn't sit well with me ... then again, I've been wrong often enough]

[EricHugo]

Algae man - no way to do that. You have to realize that these are not red bug specific. Not only what Mark said is true, but I hate to tell you what all you would kill with the whole tank in that strength Lugol's The water is yellow-brown at this dose level, and you'd probably need about a quart of Lugol's to get a tank to that cocentration!!

[Aged Salt]

Excellent thread Eric, et al,thnx. for the information,Bob

[Carrera07]

I have a few sps that are attached to some medium sized pieces of live rock. Can I dip the live rock in Lugol's at the recommended dosage along with the SPS? Or would it kill off the live rock?

Thanks.

[AlgaeMan]

Eric,
The lugols solution for the entire tank was just a question. I'm assuming that you couldn't get a strong enough dose to kill the bugs without killing everything else. There is a thread about using the heartworm medication "Interceptor" for dogs. This has been used in numerous tanks with good results. Ofcourse the side affects are losses of hermit, acro, and other crabs as well as shrimp and a good part of the pods. I haven't decided to use this yet, but I may need to if the red bugs jeopardize the health of my acros. The link on the Interceptor treatment is here:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=324266

[Dustin]

Eric, which interceptor did you try and how much of it did you use? Your resuts seem to differ greatly from the people who have used this medication. Judging by the page views and the number of emails and PMs I have gotten, hundreds of people have treated with this medication. No one who treated properly has reported the bugs returning and more importantly there have been no reports of tank crashes.

[EricHugo]

Hi Dustin:

I didn't report the bugs returning either. Just that it takes a long time and even after 24 hours, some were still alive. I followed your reefs.org directions exactly with Interceptor a few weeks ago on twelve test corals. We used ivermectin a week earlier with an estimated dose based on your Intercpetor thread. The other thing I don't like is the solubility issue with milbemycin which you mention in that thread - it is poorly soluble in water, even with heating, as is the ivermectin. I was thinking DMSO might be a solution but haven't bothered to investigate. I haven't heard of any tank crashes, either, but I cannot imagine the loss of other affected species being a good thing, you know?

If one is to treat their tanks with a drug that is unapproved for this use, and whose effects on all the other organisms is not known, its sort of irresponsible. I feel the same way about the use of antibiotics with marine invertebrates. Just because the corals and fish live, or the tank doesn;t completely crash, doesn't really give a thumbs up to the effects on smaller fauna or what might be unexpected side effects, all of which are usually tested prior to a drug being approved for use on an animal, and by veterinarians.

When a coral is sick, I have occasionally suggested the use of various treatments on the sick animals, and in a quarantine tank. I only suggest antibiotics when there is good reason to suspect that bacteria are a causative agent in the condition, and even then with proper drug disposal and with quarantine. To use an antiprotozoal/antihelminth in tanks where a large portion of the total benthic life are protists and crustaceans and worms (plus antimicrobial effects), not know what other effects are, etc. just doesn't make good sense or good practice. It is as if we are saying. "I like the corals, and I paid for the corals, so I need to save the corals no matter what the other cost." OK, if this is the case, then the aquarist should also be willing to treat the corals by removing them to appropriate treatment conditions unless another treatment option exists with known effects. And, if corals are removed from a tank, then Lugol's seems faster, easier, and more effective.

You mention aquarists "treating properly." What is "proper treatment?" Your own thread has loads of appropriate warnings. These are quite right.

There is no "proper treatment" using an unapproved drug on unapproved subjects on a presumed parasite that is undescribed and probably unknown to science on corals for which no medical treatment has ever been designed for any purpose using a treatment plan wholly unstudied, after uncontrolled experiments and trials, and by people unlicensed and untrained in veterinary medicine. That's pretty much the case, isn't it?

I applaud efforts to determine effective solutions to aquarium issues. I'm just not sure this is one of them.

[Dustin]

Eric, as I have have stated before lugols is not a viable treatment option _when an entire tank is infected_. Its too hard on the corals, and our results have shown that it does not work. Even after 6-8 baths they still returned.

I understand that using this medication in an aquarium is an off label use. I never claimed to be a vet and I did what I could to make it clear that his was a risky treatment. However it has turned out to be quite safe, there have been no reports of problems.

The drug works, instead of bashing it, it seems like your expertise and resources would be a better service to hobbyists working out the lifecycle of the bugs and/or figuring out if there actually are any side effects from using interceptor.

[davejnz]

Originally posted by Dustin

The drug works, instead of bashing it, it seems like your expertise and resources would be a better service to hobbyists working out the lifecycle of the bugs and/or figuring out if there actually are any side effects from using interceptor.

I believe he already is doing that and I think he already answered your question

"not the least of which would be the biomass pollution resulting from mass bug, bacteria, and worm kill of a well populated tank"

[Dustin]

There is no worm kill, or any biomass pollution. Even in an exceptionally diverse tank.

[AlgaeMan]

Maybe some people who actually used Interceptor should chime in..... I have read only positive feedback on using Interceptor. Atleast someone finally came up with a solution to the problem after all of these years. Even prescription drugs on the market have side affects. Dustin, I'm sure there will be many people that bash your solution before trying it.

[Reefsavers]

I agree with what Eric says.Surely, treating a fully developed ecosystem with a drug that obviously kills other animals outside of what it is intended for most likely will affect several things that you cant even see.. Dustin,I dont think anyone is bashing your treatment but its not the only way.Eric and I did try several methods and the Iodine is by far the most effective and safe treatment so far.Even in a large healthy system with rich coral growth you could target affected corals, break free,and dip.These bugs only like the taste of certain acropora and do not seem to me to target all types. Another thing about the reoccurance of the bugs after several attempts with iodine probably was not strong enough to kill any of them.We have dipped hundreds of acroprora heads with iodine now two times and the bugs are gone.The acropora slimes the bugs off right after introduction.I do two dips.After the first one any straglers in close association or in close swimming distance will reappear in reduced numbers. These were ones you did not see hiding nearby.The coral that taste right are like magnets to these little guys.The beauty of the dip is that it is quick,cheap and does no harm to the main aquarium FOR SURE.Dustins method is still to be determined on how it affects diversity and stability.I think common sense solves this problem. Think about what Interceptor targets....hmmm.....heartworms.....yet it kill these guys too...hmmm.....interesting.Kudos to all that try.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by Reefsavers
Even in a large healthy system with rich coral growth you could target affected corals, break free,and dip.
This statement is waaaay off base in may situations.
To type it is easy, to do it is impractical and can even border on the impossible.
I have corals who have encrusted signiicant area on 30 lb rocks.
Many, many which have.
Do I just dip a 30 lb rock or snap the coral off, dip it, put it back in just to be reinfected?
Of course not.
I know it is not the "job" of anyone to find the answer to this conundrum.
And Lugol's dip seem to be a great thing for incoming corals.
But is not the answer, not even close, for those with large systems.
Heck, just the number of tanks required to dip the infected corals simultaneously would take up more room than I have lol.

I am still on the fence about using Interceptor, however, due to the lack of any, any, other serious alternative, I believe I am slipping into Dog Medicine mode. :(

BTW, Reefsavers,
[welcome]


:)

[Dustin]

I have never said that the interceptor treatment is the only way. I have said repetedly that iodine is effective in killing the bugs when a bath is performed. I am going to repeat myself again. . In my experience iodine baths are not effective when an entire tank requires it. The chances of getting every piece of potentially infested coral dipped are quite low, especially in an older system where you have large encrusted areas. I treated over and over again for 3 months and the bugs returned. Those months of treatment were FAR more damaging to the system than the interceptor treatment was. The repeted baths killed all of the commensal crabs, shrimp and gobies within the coral heads. We lost hundreds of fragments from the stress of being dipped so often.

Then we figured out the interceptor treatment. We treated an entire 5000 gallon system that has been setup for over 5 years. We didnt loose a single coral, clam or fish. There was no massive worm die off, no cloudy water, no discernable bacterial bloom. You cant tell by looking at the system during the treatment that there was a pesticide in the system. The amphipods and copepods returned to their normal numbers within a month or two. This system was treated at a higher dosage than I suggested a total of 8 times. Today you would never be able to tell.

There is no denying that there will be some organisms in the aquarium that are getting killed that we cant see. I could only catch so many different types of worms and things to test. The results that you guys got in the lab are not inline with what myself and numerous other hobbyists have achieved. Before you discount this medication as too dangerous too use, look at how many times it has been used successfully. If you are so adamant that its incredibly dangerous, why dont you start testing it on the animals you say that it will kill.

I would love to see a couple of people try the iodine treatment on tanks that are heavily infested. There is certainly room for more than one way to do things.

[invincible569]

I dont understand how you guys can say that lugols will treat an established tank. I dont think its practical to tear apart corals that have encrusted. I dont think anyone (unless you have a farm) owns 2 big enough tanks to take ALL infected corals out to eliminate the bugs all at once. And thats not even a guarantee as the existing tank will have bugs waiting 5 days on you on some rock or other coral. Dustin may not have the science to back up his findings, but he does have MANY other people with established tanks who can vouche for him on the success of Interceptor.

[mrkrispy]

wow I noticed a red bug infestation on a few of my acros, but most are frags or recently moved. I think pulling them off the rocks and putting them in a QT tank for a few weeks will be much better than treating the tank with Interceptor. Only a 20L, not a lot of acros. Woohoo I hope it works...

[davejnz]

Originally posted by mrkrispy
wow I noticed a red bug infestation on a few of my acros, but most are frags or recently moved. I think pulling them off the rocks and putting them in a QT tank for a few weeks will be much better than treating the tank with Interceptor. Only a 20L, not a lot of acros. Woohoo I hope it works...

thats what i'm gonna do with my 30gal frag tank.I just purchased another 30 gal today to set up a quarrintine tank with.I like the idea of being able to target just the bugs instead of wiping out my pod population and other SB/LR fauna.

[ReeferMac]

Originally posted by SeanT
I am still on the fence about using Interceptor, however, due to the lack of any, any, other serious alternative, I believe I am slipping into Dog Medicine mode. :(

Ditto. Not happy about it either, but...

I've been putting off treatment for as long as possible, in the hopes that things would get better, or an alternative treatment for an entire tank would be found (lessee, I could drag the corals upstairs to my bathtub for a week, and hang one of the pendants from the shower curtain :rolleyes: ). Last week this guy started to turn to slime on me... and a few other's are starting to get that funny stuff at the tips:

http://reef.myip.org/230/2004_01_29/320x240Jon.jpg

Don't wanna but I'm afraid before too long, I'll be just another of those 'slowly lost everything in my tank' stories I've been reading in the Interceptor threads. I think having Eric's effective dip treatment will go a long way towards making Dustin's interceptor tank-wide treatment a one time occurence for me.

- Mac

[EricHugo]

Hi all:

Dustin, nice talking to you at IMAC, and thanks for the additional information.

After speaking with you, it certainly does point out some very unusual experiences you guys have found, and I will be keen to go forward an look at some of these issues more carefully. I have plenty of Interceptor, and am going to start by trying dissolution in DMSO to get a true dose reading and LD50.

Insofar as others comments about removing corals from established tanks, all I can say is I know all too well what this entails and cannot count the number of times I have done it for various reasons...am doing it for Aiptasia right now, as a matter of fact! I wonder if Interceptor works on them? ;-) Point is, its not impossible to remove corals, and if they need removing, and even if its a PITA, youjust do it if you know what you are doing is going to be effective. Even Acropora can sit for a week in an unlit rubbermaid tub with a powerhead or two. It's not that big of a deal. It takes all of about two weeks to have a broken colony reatttach to rock. Yeah, its a pain, but maybe that's the price to pay for not quarantining in the first place!

Mac, for you it seems you have two possibiltiies if this is at your facility. You should have space available to do a simple dip and rotate through a system with the 3-4 day waiting period (providing the life cycle allows it). The other is the med, which shouldn't, I wouldn't think, be too muchof on issue for a facility system where other potential faunal effects are not as imperative as they are for home tanks.

Since I just got back, I need to look at the bugs on an isolated fragment and see if they have increased in number or not, and also will use Interceptor on some other critters and see the effects. I might even do Aiptasia. :D

Dustin, if you can remember to send me a brief summary of what all you guys did so I don't overlap that would be great. And once again, I am not bashing Interceptor, I am hesitant to support its use on established tanks without more understanding of its effects and some confirmation/repitition. Anecdotal success or failure stories from people observing from outside the glass walls of a tank without knowing if some sort of rigor was involved is just anecdote. People are quick to praise or blame and often without much validity, and I really don;t like the idea of throngs of aquarists who may not even recognize these things and with no rhyme or reason going out and dosing tanks with unstudied drugs.

Readers of threads like this may be more prepared, but eventually this sort of "miracle fix" becomes part of the oral tradition, and soon everyone is doing it without knowing how, what or why. Eventually, I'm going to walk in a store somewhere and hear that the red bugs are harmless copepods on the glass, and some new hobbyist will be frantic that theyhave a "plague" of them and they are going to kill all their corals and they have to dose the tank. Same thing has happened too many times in the past. RTN is "cured" by chloramphenicol. Wrong in most cases. But everyone was doing it. Phytoplankton became a "coral food". Wrong, but everyone is doing it. Coral Vital cured ick. Wrong, but everyone bought it. You know what I mean.

[1wireefer]

Eric:

Thanks for all the info. I must admit the thought of either solution does not thrill me but neither does the thought of all those little red bast$%#@ swiming in my tank.

My question: If I break of my acro and there is some encrusting left behind on the rock, can't the red bugs survive there?

The thought of pulling out significant amounts of LR, along with the corals does not thrill me.

[EricHugo]

Yes, they can, but if you turn off your powerheads, you can just drip some Lugol's right on that spot and take care of it. Wait a few minutes, then turn the powerheads back on. They are a nightmare...no question about it.

[imbuggin]

Eric,

you clearly state what great swimmers the bugs can be. So taking every last acro out of the tank and treating them will do nothing for the few that "swam off"

Dustin is doing great work. I hate putting unkown chemicals in my tank. I did use interceptor. Lost a few acro crabs thats it nothing else. (no spike in amoninia at all) BUG FREE and the corals show a huge difference growing and coloring up. So science may not back up interceptor, but my acros sure do.

Thanks dustin..you are the man. I do use lugos now to dip new corals because i never want the bugs back after witnessing how well the coral do without them. Lugos is easier for a DIP. But interceptor works great to clear up your entire tank. Until we have a better "full tank" treatment. Why not help and continue the reasearch instead of bashing it even after many great results.

[Dustin]

Eric is not bashing the work. There were just some misunderstandings on both of our parts (I think).

[imbuggin]

ok he may not have been bashing. But he wasn't looking to help the way I would hope he would and/or should. Glad you talked about it. I hate to see people write off all your great work without proof or at least reasearching or trying it first.

You help me out a bunch and I am just trying to thank ya for it:rollface:

[MiddletonMark]

imbuggin, maybe you missed that Eric tried Dustin's work with Interceptor? The problems [legit IMO] with it?

And I think your `swimmer' issue would be solved by Eric's suggestion that their lifecycle is only a few days [under 5] .... so without a `host' so-to-speak, the redbug starves and dies. Seems much the same philosophy as Ich treatment in a display tank ... remove fish elsewhere for treatment. Leave display without a host for requisite time + a little extra ... Ich gone from display. Sure sounds like the Lugol's method Eric discusses is much like dealing with Ich = leave the display bio-system not-messed-with while dealing with the infected animals in a treatment system.

Just my take. I'm sure Eric has enough things on his plate to just ignore this and let us struggle. I for one an happy he's working on another treatment - I like options, and I've learned already once why not to dump a chemical in any of my tanks [FW exit]

[imbuggin]

i did read that they are working together and in my last post I said how i think its great.

As far as the "swimmer" even at 5 days it doesn't help people with large systems like me. I have a 300 gallon tank with about 500 lbs of live rock. My clowns and other fish "frag" corals all the time. I am sure there would be plenty of "hosts or frags" behind and in my rockwork. Random frags turn up everywhere. That doesn't even count on what is behind the rocks that i can't see. Or bits of encrusting corals? The removal idea is just plain impossible for large systems. Even if you get them off a coral you will never rid your system!

[ReeferMac]

Thanks Eric, unfortunately it's just little 'ol me down here. I just have a big tank. :D Some of the corals are starting to grow out and attach multiple large pieces of rock together (*by design*) and I hate to say it, but it would just be too much of a PIA, too. I've got a refuge I was planning to take offline during the treatments, but fear ultimately I may end up going this route in the near future.

- Mac

[EricHugo]

oh sorry, Mac.

imbuggin - I have a six hundred gallon tank at home and the system we were treating was 2500 gallons....you're preaching to the choir.

Now, let me ask you something. When I was doing the experiments, even on one inch fragments, I had a 250 watt halogen exam light, or a fiberoptic lit dissecting scope, or a fluorescent lit magnifying ring lamp. It still took me several minutes on each fragmetn, otating it, holding it at various angles, and checking under every corallite to be sure whether or not the fragment was clear or not. I had a coral in my main tank that was in the center of the tank, and until about five days ago, I had no idea there were bugs on it and there were a ton (no bleaching response at all to them). I only saw them while carrying the rock through a beam of sunlight in my sunroom.

Given the difficulty of seeing these things, how do you know staring a presumably large and highly branched colonies through several feet of rapidly moving Tunze driven seawater and acryclic or glass thickness heavy enough to hold 300 gallons of water that your fragments are "bug free?" Right now, I have numerous large Acropora in my tank and I can tell you I have no earthly idea if there are bugs on them or not.

As to the other comments and questions, I think Mark addressed them well.

Dustin, since I am leaving for Okinawa in a week, I will not have time to pursue anything further with Interceptor till I get back. I'll probably give you a call in the middle of July and we can talk some more and I'll get started on the next round of things. By then, hopefully, we'll have some information from the bug experts, too, and some results from the "direct development" check that I have going on right now. I'm also going to dissect that brood pouch on a couple and see what's inside.

[1wireefer]

Eric:

Is there something special about lugols iodine. I found some iodine at a farm supply store but it wasn't lugols. Do I need to use lugols? Thanks.

Howard

[EricHugo]

What is in the iodine you found at the farm supply store? Lugol's is iodine, potassium iodide and water.

[imbuggin]

ok here is some more contiversey. I don't think lugos kills the bugs well at all. I have tried various dosages as well. I took a frag I knew to be infected with the bugs. I put it in one glass (low ball) about 2 cups of water maybe. I than added lugos solution. In the end 15-20 drops. I saw some bug freak and take off from the frag. After 15 minutes. Most of the bugs were dead but a few were hangin in there. Added a few more drops and waited till i thought they were all gone. Put the frag back in q-tank. Next day saw 2 bugs on the frag and dipped again. So at a ridiculusly strong dose of lugos I was able to kill most of the bugs, but some most go into the coral and be able to survive.

In my main tank after using interceptor (twice now about to do third) I have not noticed any bugs return.

On the other hand when I dip coral with interceptor for long periods of time (like the way you treat an entire tank 6hrs) They stress and bleech. Stronger mixes of interceptor for shorter times seem to work well for a dip.

Thake it for what its worth but that has been my experience. After getting rid of them in the main tank corals have taken off in growth and color.

[hwynboy]

Imbuggin,

I just dipped my coral yesterday that was infested with red bugs. I will tell you this....if you are using Eric's reccomendated useage of 5ml to 1 liter mix you will not be able to see ANYTHING in the container. I dropped a frag in and poof it vanished. The water is sooooo brown that visiblity to the bottom of a container is nil. Anyhow after the 3 minute dip took him out and used a magnifying glass...voila. No red bugs left. Just my experience. I think you may have had way too low of a lugols solution as reccomended by Eric.

[imbuggin]

Forgive my ignorance. Is 20-25 drops in 1.5 cups of water lower than 5ml per liter? I thought it was higher. That is why i used such a small amount of water. So I could test how strong I needed to make it. I know it was a many times stronger than they recomend using it (on the bottle) as a dip on corals.

Anyone who know these questions, please help.
How many cups in a liter?
How many drops in a ML?

A guess?

[hwynboy]

I used my salifert test kit to measure the 5ml and there are 33.8 ozs in a liter...or just over 2 cups. but lucky for me I cheated...I have a measuring cup that shows the 1 liter mark. =)

As far as your ignorance is concerned, I regard you as one of the people who know what they are talking about on RC. So I think your comment there was awry.

[1wireefer]

Erick:

The iodine at the farm supply store had 5.0% w/v iodine potassium iodide and water and I think a couple of non-active ingredients. It didn't list the % of postassium iodine.

Here is the deal, I don't want to cheap ou with my corals but this stuff was $3.50 for a pint vrs $20 for 2 oz. Plus I can get it today, I would have to order lugols. What do you or anyone think?

[MiddletonMark]

I think if you're ordering Lugols somewhere ... let me know if there's any quantity/etc deal. I need to order some as well.
[and will be asking about the farm store if this stuff does work :)]

[hwynboy]

Howard let me know before you order.

[1wireefer]

No problem Mark. The farm store is farm and fleet. They had 3 different kinds mild, something? and strong. The strong Iodine is the one that had the same % as lugols.

[1wireefer]

Here is my plan but now I am wondering with imbuggin's latest post:

I have a frag tank plumbed into the main system. I am going to move everything from the frag tank into the main tank and take it off line for a week hopefully killing any red bugs. Then I am going to take all corals from the 120 main tank, dip them and put them in the frag tank for a week, killing any red bugs in the main tank. Then dip again as a saftey net and return everything to it's rightful home. That's the plan anyway.

[hwynboy]

Why does his post make you concerned? He used 2 cups roughly 1 liter of water and 15-20 drop is iodine. The 5ml is about 1/4 of the bottle. Remember I told you I couldnt see in the dip? His dip was definitely not strong enough. I talked with Eric and he said test after test this was the most reliable method as most of the bugs died off after a 30 second dip with that strength of Lugols...and a few stragglers left on till about 2-3 minute mark. Anything longer than 5 minutes he reported was the cut off where corals may start to bleach/reach the point of no return =)

I am sure he will correct me if I am misstating anything we talked about at IMAC.

[RyanH]

I did the 5ml dip for 5 minutes, and i don't have any red bugs anymore. unfortunately it looks like i'm going to lose a couple of the frags (including a blue tort.... : ( ). My plan was to dip a few frags and move them to a QT tank, then do another batch, then another batch until they are all done.

For my next batch, I'm definitely going to stick near the 3 minute mark. Oh well, live and learn...

[MiddletonMark]

And do be sure your `qt' has been offline long enough that any `residual' red bugs would die [without a host].
Though I bet you are ... IMO, with a QT set up ... I'm going to try my frag-rack first ... lose all my saleable frags before a couple days later doing my larger colonies/grown-out-frags.

But I'll be eagerly reading everyone's experiences.

[imbuggin]

thanks for the help hwynboy. It looks like i was light on the dosage. I did not know eric's advice at the time of 5ml per liter. I was just doing multiples of what the bottle instructed. I guess I never got high enough do to fear of frying the frag. You could see the bottom of the glass, but it was quite brown. Back to the drawing board I guess

[hwynboy]

yes I noticed that the dead bugs were at the bottom of the glass but I could not see in the top of the container. It was soooo dark brown they literally vanished. Just remember that in Eric's test the 5 minute mark was the point of no return at that dosage. 2-3 minutes were good results and he examined it with a magnifying glass as I did yesterday...no bugs. This morning after the dip of my infected corals...polyp extention across the board. I was happy to see that. Especially after the mess I have been in with my tank coming in cracked. That's why I never got out there to Chicago to hook up with you Imbuggin...I'll have to reschedule that road trip to come see your set up and get a few things.

[EricHugo]

So, latest update. 12 days ago, I placed a 3cm fragment of Acropora in a 8l tank on top of a stir plate with a stir bar inside and freshly made seawater, and placed it on the top edge of my tank so that it would receive some light and stay alive. The fragment had five of the red bugs on it. Tonight, I removed the fragment and looked at it under a dissecting scope. I counted 19 bugs, as best as I could tell.

So, two possibilities....one is that they are direct developers, which is what I suspect. Second is that they have a short lecithotrophic larval stage, and also are competent to find the coral and grow to near adult size in that same time frame.

I saved all the water and will filter it tomorrow and look for any larval forms. If there aren't any, they are direct developers, and Acropora-specific.

[mrkrispy]

awesome, thanks for the work Eric

[1wireefer]

Eric:

What do you think about the iodine?

[imbuggin]

do you have any idea yet how long the bugs can go with out a good host to take them in? Sorry if this is broad. What i am looking for is an idea how long the bug can search around for a host before finding themselves dormit and attaching to healthy corals? 5 days seems to be the ramdom answer. Any thoughts? I am killing frags trying to figure out a "safe" dip. That may very well be an oxymoron? All coral hate any "dip". I still would rather kill a few frag than re=infest my tank with the dreaded "red bugs" They suck. If you have them get rid of them and chech out the difference. Please! you have no idea!! I wish i had treated my tank a years ago.

[ReeferMac]

Read the first 2 pages 'buggin.... 'bout 5 days. ;)

- Mac

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by imbuggin
Any thoughts? I am killing frags trying to figure out a "safe" dip. That may very well be an oxymoron? All coral hate any "dip". I still would rather kill a few frag than re=infest my tank with the dreaded "red bugs" They suck. If you have them get rid of them and chech out the difference. Please! you have no idea!! I wish i had treated my tank a years ago.

Originally posted by imbuggin
I did use interceptor. Lost a few acro crabs thats it nothing else. (no spike in amoninia at all) BUG FREE and the corals show a huge difference growing and coloring up. So science may not back up interceptor, but my acros sure do.


Which is it? Did you use Interceptor to end up with no red bugs, or do you still have them and are doing the Iodine method?

I guess I'm confused by your posts ... as it sounds at first like you rid yourself of red bugs, but now like you have them.

Sorry for being slow, but I'm confused.

[EricHugo]

When I have put the bugs alone into a small culture dish, most are dead somewhere between 3-4 days. I have had a few that made it almost to five days, but were not really motile after 4 and were just twtiching occasionally under a scope. They do not "go dormant." They live and feed or they die, and while I cannot be sure they cannot live on something other than Acropora, they have not gone onto the other corals I have offered them, even if I try to force them onto other genera.

On the farm store iodine....Lugol's solution is a variably strong iodine solution but is most often 10g potassium iodide, 100ml water and 5 g iodine. 100ml H20 is 100 g of H20, so you can figure out the percentage solution that way.

Sorry you lost a few frags - we lost a couple, too, but only from the longer time periods and stronger dips. Like I said, you can do it over even shorter time periods if you use a magnifier to peridocially check the fragment and a little water flow from a syringe or pipette helps dislodge any stragglers. I also notice that the normal amphipods one finds in tanks last almost the exact same length of time before they die, too.

Also, I am not sure about all the Lugol's products out there and being assured of the proper strength. I assume they are properly made, but since I make my own, I though I should mention this possibility, because when I add it to water, its brownish yellow water, but not dark brown as described.

[imbuggin]

marc to answer your question. I got rid of the bugs in my main tank (using interceptor). I still have a few infected frags I am playing with in another tank. I am dipping all new corals so I do not get any bugs back in my main tank. For dipping I have tried lugos and interceptor.

[EricHugo]

So, yesterday morning I filtered 8 liters of the seawater and looked for life. The tank had a lot of brown algae on the walls, and some at the surface, too, and I assumed someof this would be zooxanthellae. There was also an amazing amount of detritus. What's rather cool is it took me six 3" filter papers under vacuum to completely filter this smallish volume of water with nothing in it but a small one inch coral fragment and a tiny bit of base rock (less 3/4 inch in any direction.

What was in it? A virtual solid mesh of mucus congealed by bacteria - ths one coral produced an astounding amount of detritus!! I found diatoms, diatoms, and more diatoms. Unbelievable numbers of diatoms. I found three living moving organisms - a tiny nemertian and two tiny polychaetes. Not a single adult amphipod in the water, and no larvae or sub-adults.

So, it appears the life cycle question is solved.

[MiddletonMark]

So life-cycle is less than 5 days?

No worries past that period?

[AcroSteve]

So, would that mean they are "direct devolpers" as you thought?

If so, what is the definition of that term? Would they lay eggs, or live bear? For reference, I am thinking most if not all vertibrates are "direct devolopers" Meaning they are what they are, they just grow bigger rather than going though some different stages. Am I on the right track?

This may already be obvious, but I was slightly suprised when I saw it. I had a piece of LR out of the tank while removing some bubble algae and noticed a red bug on the rock about 3" from the nearest coral. Moving along the rock quite well too.

[hwynboy]

Are you sure it was a red bug"? IME they are soooooo small that they are barely visible by the naked eye unless you are RIGHT UP ON IT. I use a magnifying glass to check my acros. JME though...I do not think I would ever be able to see one running across LR unless I was specifically looking for it and even then.... I dunno.

[AcroSteve]

I can see them on the corals in the tank with my naked eye.

It was definitely red, but actually, just slightly bigger than the ones on the corals.

[EricHugo]

Acro, it means the eggs do not have a larval stage. It wouldn't surprise me if you found a red bug on the rocks...they have to move from coral to coral and can land on other substrates, though I find they swim better than they walk. Also, there are a lot of pods in the tank that look sort of like them, and even appear reddish. We have samples quite a few that look like they mightbe the same (usually slighlty bigger as you note) and have not found any to be the same bugs. But, even on the rock, they have 3-5 days without a host.

[RyanH]

Eric,

I have been treated 2 batches (about 5 colonies/frags in each batch) of acropora with the 5ml/l of Lugol's, and my corals absolutely hated it. The first batch I treated for just about 5 minutes, and used a turkey baster to blow off the straglers. All of my corals bleached white. Some have begun to recover, some don't look like they are going to make it, and some look like they are going to partially recover and i'll have to frag the corals. This first treatment was about a week ago. After the treatment, the corals were moved to a QT tank.

Two days ago, i treated a second batch of acropora frags/colonies, and used a 2 minute dip this time. Most of the corals bleached some, and all the corals look quite unhappy. I don't think I'm going to lose any of the corals, but my green slimer is almost white.

It looks like the red bugs are gone, but I think it might have been too steep a price. The cure looks worse than the disease...?

I'm not going to treat the last batch of acropora until I see the ultimate results of the first two. Just wondering if I did something wrong, or if others had similar results.

Ryan

[hwynboy]

Ryan two things...Eric has already noted that a 5 minute dip is likely to bleach and kill a coral frag. Additionally are you using 5ml of Lugols with 1 liter of water?

[RyanH]

I did use 5ml/liter solution.

I think Eric said that a 2-5 minute dip in the 5ml solution did not bleach any of his corals. The 5-10 minute dip caused the bleaching, but not necessarily outright death.

In any event, I used the 5ml bath from 2-5 minutes, and I experienced significant bleaching and some death.

Would using a turkey baster to create current and blow the straglers off the coral be a likely cause of the more sigificant problems I have experienced? Possibly pushing the solution deeper into the coral polyps?

Thanks for your input.

Ryan

[hwynboy]

Ryan,

What kind of Lugols are you using? I used Kent's brand on my dips and have had VERY good success...no deaths and all red bugs gone. Additionally I also noticed that the makeup of my dip was EXTEMELY brown so dark I could not see in it. Eric also noted that his dip was not as dark. I am wondering with all the different lugols solutions out there if some are more effective than others? Or more hard on the coral? What Lugols brand did you use? and Im buggin maybe you could share as well.

[RyanH]

I'm using the Kents brand. The water was definitely brown, but not so dark i couldn't see to the bottom of the container.

[1wireefer]

Eric:

OK so I have started some test frags and things seem to be going ok but I have a few questions/concerns. They are very tenacious little bugs. After dipping I have inspected the frags and foud a few straglers. My question/concern is this. Are these hanger ons dead but still attached or are they still alive. Manual removal is very difficult and once I get to the larger colonies, there will be no way to thoroughly inspect them (too many branches and places to hide). If a few of these stragglers remain, will they re-infect my corals or are they dead?

Thanks for your help.

[MiddletonMark]

Howard, I believe Eric's in Palau and Okinawa for a few weeks, back in early July :(

He asked that I keep tabs on things and make sure to bring to his attention threads that need his input when he gets back ... but we're probably going to wait a few weeks.

Do keep posting your findings, though ... as I know I'm going to be reading closely; and this will be at the top of what I call Eric's attention to.

[ReeferMac]

IIRC, he said that those 'stragglers' were dead/dying, and typically were dislodged w/ some work with the pipette... Personally, I'd opt to quarantine after dosing, to make sure.

- Mac

[1wireefer]

They are very difficult to remove. I have them in the QT tank now but that was going to be the tank free of red bugs while the main tank sat empty for 3-5 days, killing whatever was left. Now it sounds like I should have three tanks...errrgh. I think I will let them sit in the QT tank for a few days and then reinspect to see if they are multiplying again. I'll keep you posted.

Middleton Mark. I ended up using the Strong Iodine from Farm and Fleet and it seems to do the trick. $3.49 a pint, can't beat that. So far no bleaching and all the frags I did last night seem to be doing well this morning. Tomorrow I am going to start with some colonies. I'll keep you posted.

[1wireefer]

Well I have completed the dipping of all more corals and they are in the frag tank. They are not happy and slothing all over but I hope this will calm down. So far, I have only lost a couple of acro crabs. If that is all I loose I think I will be pretty lucky. I am going to do a big water change tonight and run some carbon. I'll keep you posted.

[hwynboy]

my poor poor acro crabs....*sniff* I miss them already. I cant believe you killed them! =(

[HolyBanana]

one of my acro crabs was eeeeevil!
He was eating my milli. BAd crab!

[1wireefer]

Well as a strong advocate of the iodine method, I feel it my responsibiltiy to eat crow and now report that the red bugs have returned and the iodine treatment was not a success. I can no longer in good faith recommend the iodine method and regret posting my intial findings without the benefit of long term observations. It may have worked for Eric and it did kill a large portion of the red bugs but it was not a 100% successful and they repopulate at an alarming rate.

[DANNY G2004]

I have been reading this post anyone have found a better solution to this little problem.

[Old Yeller Tang]

Anybody know if Interceptor would aide in killing ich?

[tropoasis]

No Roland, It won't help with ick

[discocarp]

Has there been an outcome to this? Any updates? I want to qtank everything going into my tank this time around and I would like an effective procedure for dealing with these *before* they hit the tank.

[ReeferMac]

I've had reasonable success (5-6 times?) by QT'ing all new corals in a small tank for about 8 hours.

I got a small 2.5gal. glass tank from petco (use it for live brine, when I get them), and simply toss in an airline to keep some circulation going. I keep a lid on it to prevent excessive evap., and don't bother w/ a heater (just make sure the room is fairly warm - not a problem in the summer when I do most of my trading).

First I try to acclimate the frags in their bags to my tank's temp., in the traditional manner (floating 'em in the sump/refuge). Then I empty the frags and the bagged water into the small QT tank. I top it up w/ some tank water (slowly to avoid shock), until there's ~1 gal. water in there. Put in the bubbler, crush ~1/8th of an interceptor pill up, dissolve in an additional half-liter tank water, and add to the QT tank (w/ a liberal dose of FWexit as well, to be safe). I then let this sit for 8 hours minimum. I usuall get my frag packages early in the AM at Fed/Ex, so by the time I've got the kids down for bed and an hour or two to myself, they've soaked long enough.

Come evening, I add another couple liter's of tank water to make sure temps are close, and then begin mounting the frags. I try to shake them off well, or rinse them a bit in some more clean tank water, and then add them to the tank as I normally would.

Knock on wood, I haven't spotted any more since my initial treatments, and have been following this ritual for EVERY coral that goes into my tank (wether SPS or not). I'm very nervous of re-infection from a free-floater, as you never know where your corals are coming from (even if they're not SPS). Many LFS's also have common plumbing between tanks, and frankly, since I QT for FW's as well... it's really not that much harder to add the Interceptor to my list of med's to dose into the QT tank.
I've recently started trying some other treatments for Acropora FW's, so it's starting to get pretty hairy.

- Mac

[EricHugo]

I think that's an excellent plan, Mac - with the degree of spread of all these bugs from frag trading, I wouldn't put anyone's frag in my tank without quarantine first.

[discocarp]

Thanks Mac, that's what I was looking for actually, was just trying to be specific to red bugs here hehe. I have a post going in the sps forum about dip/qtank procedures but haven't gotten a lot of bites. I'm really agonizing over interceptor vs. lugols dips for red bugs (everything incoming would get the dips, then hit the qtank).

I'm at a complete loss over what to do about acro flatworms and monti nudis though. I really want to head everything off before it hits the main tank.

[ReeferMac]

Originally posted by discocarp
I'm at a complete loss over what to do about acro flatworms and monti nudis though.

Yeah, that's why I've been adding anti-fluke to my QT tank as well. I won't even trade monti's. Too scary.

- Mac

[discocarp]

Yes, I've been thinking of going montiless in this tank so the only x-factor is the acro flatworms. We'll see..

Any luck with the fluke tabs? I've heard of some people using these but I'm not sure how its turned out.

I guess I'll be inspecting everything with a magnifying glass while its in the q-tank for 4-6 weeks and hoping...

Back to the interceptor again, You aren't having any issues with not applying multiple treatments? I know the "standard" directions call for 3 applications. I also know most people are using MUCH higher strengths in dips than in tank. But it worries me doing a single application. Since I will be qtanking anyway I was considering doing the dip procedure *and* treating in q-tank twice more with interceptor. My only concern is this stuff is a pain to get and this would use it up a heck of a lot faster, about 200 times faster (2.5g dip once vs 20g qtank twice). But, that concern aside, I just don't want them to hit my tank, ever. No matter how much of a pain qtanking is, its a heck of a lot better than dealing with these issues in the main tank...

[ReeferMac]

Yeah, the anti-fluke is a recent thing for me, and frankly, I don't know if it works. I haven't spotted any Acro FW's before, nor since starting to use it, so.... We shall see. I don't acquire corals many times throughout the year. I also don't have a setup I can use for any length of time as a QT tank. I just have that little tank, so... Crank up the dosage, and cross your fingers, I guess. ;)

- Mac

[discocarp]

Sounds like a plan. Ideal plan, nope, but a plan at least hehe...

[ReeferMac]

Yeah, I hear ya. :)
The mere fact that I'm QT'ing put's me mile's ahead of where I was a few years ago! Frankly, the interceptor treatment protocol as outlined by Dustin Dorton from ORA wasn't that huge of a PIA for the typical tank. My situation is a little different, because I use all natural filtration, I don't have a skimmer. So knocking off a large population of the 'bugs' in my system was something I felt would be pretty traumatic. It was, and took some time (and toll), but the tank and corals did recover. True, I'd rather not go through it again, but if I had to... I think taking precautions to avoid them entirely is wise, but don't run yourself ragged trying to keep them at bay. The idea of dosing med's for 8 hours, then doing 1 big water change (times 3), isn't all that daunting. It's the incidental deaths from the medicine that are the biggest concern. And given a traditional setup (e.g. skimmer, filters, etc.), it's not nearly as problematic.

- Mac

[discocarp]

That's all true, and I wouldn't hesitate to dose my main tank down the road if it needed it, but it sure seems a whole lot easier to head these pests off before I even need to worry about collateral damage. In my previous tanks I never qt'd, dipped, and got (mostly) lucky. Ich was the only real pest I ever got. Catching all those fish and doing massive water changes while doing hypo in a tank that wasn't prepared for ANY bioload much less a whole tank's worth really made me open my eyes. I just don't see a reason anymore to not take every precaution I can. Its just sooo much easier to deal with one or a couple specimens in a dedicated qtank. It may not be foolproof, but if it saves me from one outbreak from any of these fish/coral/tank pests then it was worth it.

[ReeferMac]

Originally posted by discocarp
I just don't see a reason anymore to not take every precaution I can.

LOL! That's a rare trait, indeed! :lol:

- Mac

[discocarp]

Unfortunately it took me getting burned a few times (between ich, 3 hurricanes, glass heater explosions, shocking rios...) I'm just too unlucky to not play it safe. :P