Surge on small tank

[Agu]

I'm thinking of building a surge for my prop tank. It's a 40 breeder with a generic hob overflow( 1 1/4" u tube) and a half full 29 gallon sump. Currently the return pump is moving about 500 gph throught the overflow.

Is the overflow going to be a problem with capacity?

Any hints?

Agu

[Rod Buehler]

Hi Agu
If you lower the inside strainer box as low as it goes, so the when the water level in the tank is at it lowest, you have an inch or two to play with, the U-tube should be able to handle the flow of a small surge. The water level in the tank will raise when the surge first starts, but the u-tube will catch up by the time the second surge comes through. Provided you arent filling the surge tank too quickly.
Good luck

[Agu]

OK, I lowered the strainer box, gives me about one inch. Using the L X W X H / 231 = about 2.5 gal, figure a two gallon surge would be about right. Any recommendations on pvc size. I was thinking 1" would be restrictive enough to give decent flow with only two gallons. Or would I be better off with larger or smaller diameter tubing?

Agu

[Rod Buehler]

http://www.rodsreef.com/surge_tank.htm This should work out well for what you need.

[Agu]

Rod,

Thanks. Now you have me thinking !! I was going to do a Carlson surge, no moving parts, and bubbles aren't a problem in a prop tank. However, I like your design with the flapper and elbows inside the tank. Maybe I'll have to build two :D .

Thanks again,
Agu

[Snailman]

The first surge device I built was a carlson and it makes a load of noise and if the water in is to slow it won't start and if it is too fast it won't stop. I tried one like Rod's too but I ended up with one like on www.aquatouch.com site. It has been flushing every three minutes for the last two years. :)

[Agu]

New question, can I put three surge devices on a 40 breeder;) ?

Snailman, I looked at the aquatouch surger, but I'd really like to set up one with no moving parts. Over the years I've accumulated several different powerheads, I guess they'll all get a chance on the Carlson surge until I get the right flow. Maybe those powersweeps will be good for something yet :).

Part of the fun of DIY is trying things out. (would that take a :D or a :rolleyes: , or a :eek1: ?) since this is on a prop tank in the storage room anything goes as long as there's no flooding :cool: . Heck, I'll probably keep trying designs until I'm happy or bored.

Agu

[Snailman]

That is what I did...tried them all, even the SilentSurge. :) There is a DIY for you. One thing for sure is they all have a LWAF (low wife approvial factor) :D

[Rod Buehler]

I have built 4 carlsons. they all worked great for a while, but every one of them quit working within less than 1 years time. I now have 13 Borneman surges in action now, some of them are 3 years or longer. Moving parts? What actually moves on the ?Borneman style surge besides the flapper? There have been a few threads on the borneman surge here on Reefcentral. some of them included Erics input. Do a search, and Im sure they will pop up :).
You might be able to use 2 surges on a 40, but I really doubt it. I have dual surges on 75 gallon tanks with good results. I have a 30x24 60 gallon tank that has a 9 gallon surge. It has a 2" discharge that reduces to 1.5" pipe just at the end of the discharge which pruduces quite a bit of velocity. The plumbing on the 9 gallon surge is on the outside of the surge bucket ( through the bottom) so I get the full 9 gallons worth of surge. The water level in ths tank raises 4-5" , in less than 10 seconds, with every surge.
Good luck

[Agu]

Rod,

Well. I've read a ton of old posts and the style you posted appears to be the best imo. Quick question, is the elbowed part above, even, or below the level of the flapper? Or does it even matter?

Snailman, This tank is in my shop/storeroom, LWAF isn't an issue :D .

Thanks,
Agu

[Rod Buehler]

I used to think that it needed to be above the flapper, but now realize that it doessnt, as long as the elbow is there. The elbow keeps that part of the discharge flooded so the presure against the flapper is relieved. Kinda like a Pee Trap.

[Agu]

Rod,

Thinking about it, I can test all three alternatives. The plumbing inside the container doesn't need to be a 100% sealed. I'm going to put the internal parts together with teflon tape as the sealant until I'm satisfied with the design.

Agu

[Rod Buehler]

FWIW, I dont have any of the plumbing glued on any of my surges. Inside the surge tank or out. There is really no need to glue the internal parts. The outside is optional :). No need to test :) it will work either whether the "inverted P trap" rises above the flapper or not .

[Agu]

I built it, and it doesn't work :( , the float won't lift the flapper to create a surge. It just lifts enough to let flow into the tank but no surge. Tried a bigger pump (went from maxi 1200 to mag 2), tried an arm on the float for more leverage, and tried reducing head. No luck !! Any ideas??

Agu

[Rod Buehler]

Are you using a soft rubber flapper, or a stif rigid hard plastic flapper?

[Agu]

Soft rubber flapper. Hmmmm, it bends and leaks without popping open??? Guess I'm off to the hardware store again :rolleyes: .

I bet the second one is a lot easier to build :D .

Agu

[Agu]

Can't find a "stiff, rigid, hard plastic flapper" :( . They're all soft rubber so they seal when closed :mad: .

Guess it's option # 2, good thing I didn't glue the joints :D .

Agu

[Snailman]

Rod... Reading this thread and looking at your web site again this morning has givveen me an idea. :) I use a 20 gallon Sterlite tub from WalMart for my surge device. I am using the Awuatouch design. When I tried the float design I missed the part about the hard plastic flapper and mine did not work well either. I also missed the point about the U part of the tube. My toilet valve is mounted through the bottom of the tub and heads towards the tank. My current design only has a 1" surge pipe. I would like to have a 2" surge pipe but when I tried that it created such a powerful drain on the toilet valve that "pulled" the flapper shut. Your web site said that you haad built larger ones. Doed the U prevent this problem? I have a 30 gallon cone shaped tank that I bough from www.usplastic.com part #8553. It has a 2" threaded bulkhead fitrting in the bottom that a toilet valve will screw right into. :) I thought that this would be the perfict surge tank but it really does put a tremendious downforce on the tiole valve with a 2" surge pipe. Are you concerned about that piece of metal chain in the SW?

[Rod Buehler]

Hi Snailman,
I have nevr had any of the flappers pull shut until the water level dropped to the height of the opening. Maybe the little styro float that is built into the hard plastic flapper prevents it from being pulled shut. The "u" will ease the presure from the flapper opening, but when its draining, I think the pressure will still be there.
My favorite surge tank is nearly identical to the 9 gal surge on my unfinished DIY page, (http://www.rodsreef.com/9%20gal%20surge.htm) except I left the discharge at 2" all the way through the "U " , and just before it enters the tank I reduced to 1.5".
When I built my first surge, I was concernd about the chain too, and I ask Eric his thoughts.. They were.. " A little iron is good for the macros ;) " and something like " its not going to rust overnight. " meaning that when it starts to break down, the chain can easily be replaced.
Good luck

[minnreefer]

Ok I have been thinking about putting a surge on a 135, is the type of surge that Rod builds that loud or is there any quiet plans for a surge for a tank in a eating area?
Thanks
Jonathan

[Snailman]

Rod, you are Da Man. :) I have made up my plumbing parts list and I will get them tomorrow along with the parts I need to make two Stockman pipes for the 120 I am setting up for a refugia. I am also getting the parts for my lawn sprinkler circulation plumbing. It is going to be a big plumbing week. :) If this lets me use my 30 gallon cone tank I will be very happy. :) If not it will at least allow me to upgrade the 20 gallon to a 2" surge line and that would make me happy too. Do you know what brand the hard plastic flapper vale is?

[Agu]

Well no luck so far :( , can't get the hard rubber flapper locally, and can't get the parts for the Aquatech float. I'll be going to the city wed and scouring the aisles at Home Depot. The nearest one is 40 miles away :rolleyes: , once I get this figured out they'll be easy to build. I am learning a lot in the process though, the bottom half will be the "Rod" design so I can go through the side instead of the bottom, and the top will be tha Aquatech design so the flapper actually opens :D . Guess it'll be the "AquaRod surge".

Agu

[Rod Buehler]

whoa.. I am not the inventor of that surge.. Its Eric Bornemans design ( maybe even Carl Delfavro (Ssheesh I hope I didnt mutulate that name too badly .. sorry Carl). I just happend to be one of the people that helped Eric remember that he had the "u" in the plumbing that wasnt in the diagram in the FAMA article which originally introduced the "Borneman Surge".

Jonathon: This surge is not very loud, but is not silent either. Any time you have rushing water you will have some noise.. They dont have that loud slurping/sucking sound like the Carlson style sometimes have. Some of my surges are lessnoisy than others.

Agu: I can send you a flapper if you need one. I dont know the brand name off the top of my head, but I can try to find out. I buy them at the local Lowes store. They are white hard plastic, with a styro float on the bottom side of the flapper, and a blue (sometimes black) rubber washer that seals the flapper to the "drain hole"

I no longer use the toilet float, but now use a 16 oz plastic coke bottle. ( must be coke.. Pepsi is too sweet ;) ) and I use the chain that came with the original flapper. They are a bit stronger and easier to work with. I attach the chain to the bottle with a cable tie.

Snailman: Lawn sprinkler circulation? Is this the rotating sprinkler head that rotates by water pressure from the pump, or is this something I havent seen yet?

[Agu]

Rod,

No need to send a flapper, I'm sure I'll find one at HD or Menards. Thanks for the offer :) . Last night while looking for something else I came accross a 8 oz plastic bottle that looked perfect for a "float". It's soaking now to remove the label, hope the Mrs doesn't ask where her bath salts went:eek1: .

Agu

[Snailman]

I got one of the hard plastic flappers at Lowes tonight. :) It is for an Eljir LoBoy toilet. I also got the 2" elbows for the U. Agu, good luck at HD. We have an HD and a Lowes here not far apart. If you need plumbing parts Lowes is the place because HD does not have much but if you need electrical stuff then HD blows Lowes away. It depends on what I need as to where I go. :) Rod, I will be doing a DIY piece on the rotating sprinkler heads as soon as I get some new ones so I can show how to take them apart and modify them for tank use. I have 8 MJ-1200 powerheads and a 20 gallon surge and I still have many dead spots in my tank. I am hoping that these rotating sprinkler heads will do the trick. I have tested one it it seems to work great. The thing I like the most is they don't have an intake like the powerhead. I picked up all of the plumbing I will need to install 12 of them tonight too. :)

[Agu]

Eljer lowboy flapper here I come :D. Tried out the aquatech tonight and it's a pita imo. Way too many things to adjust, and to get out of adjustment. I'll be posting a "Surge for Idiots" by the time I get this thing working.

Agu

[jck]

I've been watching this thread with interest after my trials and tribulations with surge devices. Right now, I'm running a Borneman style surge and have been reasonably happy with it. So far, the float has wedged the flapper once, and the chain popped loose just this week. Other than that, the only problem is a few bubbles but nothing too bad.

Agu: On the AquaTouch design, you're right about the adjustments. I could get mine to run about 2 days before it would fail. Inevitably, the pull of the swing to open the flapper and start the surge would pull the large float's arm out of alignment. You could glue it, but then it would be impossible to adjust if you glued it slightly wrong. The only thing I can think to do would be to glue a male fighting onto the flush kit's overflow and use a tee with a female fitting. That way, you could get the positions close and be reasonably sure it would hold. Some tape in the threads might then cinch it up enough to hold over the long haul. YMMV, I haven't tried it since I switched to the other style.

The other adjustments on the AquaTouch aren't too bad once you are comfortable with how it operates and assuming you can find plumbing parts for the large float that will work with your container. Mine kept hitting the side of the bucket...

Anyway, sorry to jump in. I'm still not totally happy with my surge and am always looking for diy options.

[Agu]

jck, For something that looks so simple it's really been a pita. At this point it's a matter of pride (ok, ego) to get one that works right.

Snailman, Is the elger flapper universal mount or do I need to replace the whole thing?

Agu

[Snailman]

Agu...It is just the flapper. You will need to get a normal toilet unit with the rubber flapper and then remove the rubber flapper and clip the upright tips off of the ears and put the new plastic flapper on it. Rod's web site link in his post has pictures and instructions.

[Agu]

Got the rigid flapper and the sob (can I post that) still won't work :mad: . The output is below the flapper so another garbage can is going to be mutilated, going to change water levels to put the drain line above the flapper in my vain and immature attempt to build a functional surge. In spite of my ignorance, I'm going to make one that works. Where's the little smiley face thing for stupid determination?

Agu

[Snailman]

Agu...You are not going anywhere that most of us surge device owners have not already been. They look simple but you end up with some containers with holes in the sides and bottom and pieces of PVC pipe and fittings glued together in strange configurations. The cone tank I am applying Rod's ideas to will be the third time I have tried to make this tank work. :)

[jck]

Chin up, Agu. You'll get it. I think the majority of people that build these devices probably go through a few containers and plumbing parts before getting it to work. If you came to my house today, you could see my AquaTouch float assembly and two 5 gallon buckets with holes in the bottom out in my shed.

My surge is a 5 gallon Ace Hardware bucket with the hole for the flush kit in the bottom in the position recommended in the AquaTouch plans. For the output, I have a fiptxslip 2" elbow connected to a 2x1.5 reducer bushing. About 1.5' of 1.5" tubing runs toward the tank. Then I have the inverted U that Rob mentions (btw, thanks for all your posts and website Rob) and the output runs just a couple of inches below the water. The float in the bucket has no more than about 3" of chain to connect it to the flapper. Any more than that and it wouldn't fire until the water hit the flush kit's overflow which kicks water out of the overflow vertically when the flapper opens.

Anyway, I'm hopeful that might give you some ideas on how to make yours work. To save time, I just reused my AquaTouch assembly to make the Borneman unit which is why it's not made like Rod's devices.

btw - It's good to test the thing where you can watch the float move. Trying to test on the aquarium itself can be a pain.

[Agu]

IT WORKS !!! Every 65 seconds like clockwork I get a 15 second surge. I'll evaluate the changes and post back, but I have to fix a minor problem. The garbage can leaks :( , so I have to get another garbage can before it can actually be used.

Agu, Mutilator of Waste Receptacles

[minnreefer]

Congrats Agu,
Now you can make me one :)
I think that I am going to report you to a moderator for the sob thing
:D
Jonathan

[BRW]

Originally posted by Agu
IT WORKS !!! Every 65 seconds like clockwork I get a 15 second surge. I'll evaluate the changes and post back.
Agu, Mutilator of Waste Receptacles

Any updates? What turned out to be the keys to success? Which design does your surge most resemble? Thanks for any info. :cool:

[Agu]

I didn't want to claim success until it ran for a few days, which it did into a 5 gallon bucket over the weekend:D . It is this design,

http://www.rodsreef.com/surge_tank.htm

Check the "9 gallon surge" for details too. I missed the hard plastic flapper part, soft ones just distort and leak without flushing. The output does need to be above /flush with the flapper/drain to keep enough water in the plumbing to reduce backpressure ime. In addition, a short wide container (within reason) is preferable to a tall thin one. My first attempt the water got so deep the float couldn't pull up the flapper due to water pressure.

I used cable ties to attach the float, I think there's less chance for them to get under the flapper, but that's jmo.

Water was supplied using a maxi 1200 and maxi 1000 at only about 2.5' of head. Really saw no difference in surge timing using either pump.

For a bulkhead I used threaded to slip male and female adaptors. Assembled the whole thing and lined up the output to mark where to drill the hole. You'll need an additional piece of scrap plexi drilled to make the container thick enough and rigid enough to not leak. Slide a generic washer over the male end, poke it through the hole add the plexi spacer, and screw the female end on. Works fine for this setup and it's cheap:) .

None of the connections were glued, but I did use teflon pipe tape to ensure a snug fit. The external fittings should probably be glued before putting it into use.

Total cost, not counting stuff that didn't work out and the pump, $25. And that was buying everything at a high priced LHS, you can probably do better at a big discount store.

hth,fwiw,

Agu

[BRW]

Thanks for the update Agu. How many gallons will the final surge be? Does the depth in the tank of the discharge play a significant part in the "surge-ability" of the design? Could you further explain this sentence: "The output does need to be above /flush with the flapper/drain to keep enough water in the plumbing to reduce backpressure ime." ? Are you describing the "U" portion of the output pipe? Thanks again.

[Agu]

As I understand it, water remaining in the U portion reduces suction and therefore backpressure on the flapper. When the outlet side was lower than the flapper the float couldn't pull up the flapper.

I've only run it into a 5 gal bucket so far. I'm bringing it to the local club meeting next week so it doesn't make sense to install it just to take it down. I'd suspect there will be some resistance from water in the tank, but someone running one of these can answer better than I.

It's about 2 gal, but that can be somewhat adjusted by lenghthening or shortening the chain/cable tie.

fwiw,
Agu

[Rod Buehler]

Great! Im glad its working. :)..must be beginners bad luck, because my first surge that I built didnt work properly either, but every one since then has worked perfectly from the start. With a little practice you can have them built, mounted and surging in less than 20 minutes :)

Originally posted by Agu
The output does need to be above /flush with the flapper/drain to keep enough water in the plumbing to reduce backpressure ime.
**********
I think It does help to have the "U" rise above the flapper, but its not necessary. I have many of them that arent built that way. **********

In addition, a short wide container (within reason) is preferable to a tall thin one. My first attempt the water got so deep the float couldn't pull up the flapper due to water pressure.

Agu :

hmm...
I have never tried a short container, but always thought a taller more narrow container would work the best. Especially if using a smaller pump to fill it with. The water level would rise quicker, putting more *lift* on the float. I guess either will work.

A bigger float always helps too. I have been using 20 oz Coke bottles.

[Snailman]

I am considering using a Rubbermaid 32 gallon Brute trash can for my next surge device. :)

[Agu]

Rod,

Thinking about it you're right, it's the size of the float in relation to the water depth. I could only fit a small float into the first try and couldn't get it to work, with a wider container I went to a bigger float also.

Thanks again,

Agu

[Rod Buehler]

Originally posted by Snailman
I am considering using a Rubbermaid 32 gallon Brute trash can for my next surge device. :)

Heh, the big ones are great, but I think 2 or three seperate surges will give you more satisfaction ;). With different fill rates you can get some pretty awesome currents happnin.

[LiquidShaneo]

Rod, Jon, and Agu,

You guys need to take pix of your surge devices as mounted on your tanks and take pix of the devices and the surge that it produces. :) Post them here! ;)

I got the wife's OK to get a 4'x2'x1.5' tall tank this week for my birthday (woohooo!!) so I'm seriously thinking about adding some surges in somewhere...

Shane
(aka "liquid")

[Snailman]

I picked up the 44 gallon Rubbermaid Brute trash can today and the fittings from www.plumbingsupply.com came in today too so...new surge device this weekend. :D Rod...When I tested the 30 gallon cone tank last weekend with a 2" drain it emptied in a few seconds and my tank is 7' long so it takes time for the wave to reach the far end. The reason I went with the 44 gallon can was because I will lose 3" or 4" at the bottom for the toilet valve and the plumbing it screws into and 3" or 4" at the top for the overflow pipe. If I lost this much out of a 32 gallon can it would have been a real small surge. I am going to use your design and put all of the plumbing inside of the trash can including the pee trap. I got a 2" bulkhead fitting to pass the output through. I also got a 2" slip x slip x FNPT tee for the toilet valve to screw into. One end of the tee will go to the pee trap and the other end will go a capped stand pipe like the silent surge has. I want to see what it does in this device. :) I will take pictures.

[Snailman]

HELP... I have it built qnd installed. When it surges it is awsome. :) I have two problems. The main one is as the surge comes to an end the flapper shuts but because of the water in the pee trap it floats back open so it slams shut and then pops right back open and then slams shut again.... I had to put a drop of epoxy on the stryofoam plug because the hammering kept popping it out. This hammering also pops the chain out of the flapper sometimes so the flapper does not open the next time. I started with a 20oz soda bottle and it could not pull the flapper open so I moved up to an OceanSpray bottle and it is touch and go so next try is a 2 liter soda bottle. Here is a picture of my 44 gallon monster. :)

[Agu]

Snailman,

What's the purpose of the capped second standpipe? I suspect a vacuum is being created in there as the water rushes out and the flapper is bounced around when pressure is being equalized. Can you remove the cap and try it that way?

Also from the pic it looks like the overflow is capped? Same thing with that one if it is capped.

Fwiw, from a surge rookie,

Agu

[Snailman]

The overflow is not capped, you are seeing the back side of the elbow that is screwed into the bulkhead fitting on the other side. The capped pipe is an idea i took from the "Silent Surge". We deduced that it was to stop the watter hammer but after testing it I think that it is responsible for the removal of bubbles after the first few cycles just like the Silent Surge did. Here is a picture of the outside so you can see the overflow.

[Snailman]

DUH...capped overflow...You mean the one on the toilet valve. It is far to small to do any good at my flow rate and would be 18" under water when the can gets full so it would be draining all of the time. That is why I capped it and put a 2" overflow at the top of the can. It works too because I have used it. :)

[Snailman]

Here is Rev 2 with the tee and standpipe removed. It hammers 3 or 4 time and then stays shut. I am going to replace the cap on the toilet valve overflow with a coupling and then stick a piece of 3/4" PVC in it so that it is taller than the max water level to see if that helps (Rev 3). :)

Here is Rev 2:

[undrwata]

Wow Snailman,

I have been trying to get the surge you recommened working for some time with no luck on the tweaking of it...the problem is that it opens the valve(flapper) only a little, but enough for the watr to escape at the rate of entrance. Or it won't flush at all pouring through the overflow. I did alter the design by using a float ball for toilets maybe that is the problem...Any advice you have would be welcome. I wrote the designeer 2 times and received no responce.

:confused:

[Snailman]

You will hear me hoot and holler from there when this this thing works. :) I have always used the www.aquatouch.com design so this is a bit different for me. You don't have to email Eric because he has a fourm here under the experts heading. Some of my problem is because I am using 2" pipe and a huge container. I tried a toilet float, 20oz soda bottle, OceanSpray jug and I am going to end up with a one gallon milk jug for good measure. :D Look at the link in Rod's post, he has 9 of them running.

[Snailman]

Well it works so so. I had to stick to rev 2. I uncapped the toilet valve overflow and as I figured it acts like the air intake on a venturi so it dumps tons of air in the surge water and into your tank. I did discover that it spit water out when the flapper closed. This gave me an idea. I put a check valve on it and so water and air could be pushed out but no air could be sucked in. :) This helped but is not a cure all because it still hammers two or three times. I also had to go with two 2 liter soda bottles for a float. One was not enough some of the time but two pop it every time. The 2" output of the surge device is 8" underwater but when it flushes there is serious current on the surface for 6'. :D Now if I could only stop the hammering I would be happy.

[Agu]

Snailman,

Try extending the toilet/flapper overflow above the high water mark. Also, you may want to shorten the lead to the float. Not as much backpressure, not as much flow, but you'll be getting a surge more often to offset the reduced quantity.

Just a guess,

Agu

[Snailman]

I have it extended above the high water line. This means that it is in the air so without the checkvalve on it the surge output is full of air. Now it is short cycling. It open and the water level goes down 4" and it closes with 18" of water still on top of it. :( I think I will try the Aquatouch rig on it tomorrow night. I also have another plan that is a bit more involved but I think it would work like a champ. :)

[Rod Buehler]

I think that the "u" may be extended way too high. You sort of have a cross between the borneman and the carlson. I cant explain my thoughts on this at the moment, but I can visualize :o Its too early in the morning for me to try to figure out ;). FWIW I built 2 small surges last night that work great. I have never tried to cap the toilet kit overflow, and I have built them all like the design on my web page. Every one has worked without a hitch from the first time I start pumping water to them. I do get a few small bubbles/spray, but on most of them, not enough to bother me.

[Snailman]

This thing is starting to wearing on me a bit. I uncapped the toilet valve overflow and just as I suspected it acts like a venturi once the water get low enough to expose it to air. The toilet valve does work a lot better so that made me happy but a tank full of air bubbles does not. I shortened the U tube to almost nothing but the two elbows back to back and that didn't change a thing. :( I found a new type of toilet valve at HD tonight. It doesn't have a flapper, it has a bell shaped valve that is attached to a tube that rides on an inner rod with a pull ring at the top. I was really excited by the design so I bought one. I brought it home and tested it in the kitchen sink. No joy :( It needs to be held closed and then it opens by itself.

[Snailman]

Rod... I am seeing things that are convincing me that you are right about the mixed mode device so I am off to HD tomorrow for ANOTHER $36 trash can :( so I an make the pee trap A LOT SMALLER. :)

[Roadtoad]

Hey Snailman

First, I wish I had a tank that could accomodate a 30+ gallon surge!
About your problems: Could it be that because you are using such large pipe for the drain on your surge device that you arent getting sufficient back pressure. Most of the designs utilize some sort of reducer.

[visser]

Snailman do u have a web page that i cud have a look at ??

thanks from alex

[Snailman]

Roadtoad




[welcome]


and thanks for the tip. My old 20 gallon surge device had a reduced surge pipe and that is not what I want. I want the full force of a 2" surge pipe so that it drains a lot faster the the 2100 GPH pump that is filling it.

[Snailman]

Visser...Just click on^ the little www at the header of this post and it will take you to my web site.

[visser]

thanks
:D

[Rod Buehler]

I have had a few surges that used 2" pipe without reducing in size. They worked great. I think the problem with Snailmans was that the "U" was way too high. It was a cross between the Carlson and the Borneman. The Carlson part wanted to keep siphoning, while the borneman part wanted to shut down. ;). Following the design on my page (the Borneman) should produce a flawless surge every time. A float with more surface area may be needed in some cases.

[Snailman]

Rod...I made a new one that the U is two elbows right together and it does not auto siphon like the other one but it still sucks air like crazy through the toilet valve overflow tube. :( Other than that is works fine and surges like crazy. :)

[schemo]

hey this thread is awesome!!!!! i was wondering if anyone gave a thought about using actual toilet surge tanks??? i live in europe, italy and all the tanks here are in wall style. which means they have a slim tall surge tank mounted within the wall. i believe these kits come complete? and it should hold 7-10 gals good enough for a small/medium tank??? if anyone wants me to check out prices for these european surge tanks let me know??
after reading this i'm thinking about buying a few and hooking them up to my 600L tank??? i think it would be better than just pumps, making it more realistic ??

well i just wanted to give a thought? and if you got time check out my site.......................schemo's water (http://homepages.about.com/schemo24/schemoswater/index.html)

[Roadtoad]

Ciao Schemo come stai?

I like the idea-. The only consideration (I guess this should go without saying) is whether the innards of the toilet flush kit contains dangerous metals. When I lived in Argentina they used similar in the wall flush units that had several brass or copper parts. My primary problem with these units came from the flush button popping off and plopping in the toilet, make sure the button is plastic and you are set.

[Snailman]

Be very sure that there are NO metal parts in it anywhere.

[schemo]

roadtaod sei italiano? sono molto bene, ti?

well i really havn't had the chance to see if there's any metal components, i would belive that it would be plastic since everything here cost so much d@#m money!!! but if not i'm sure that they would have all plastic models?? and yes i know about the push button, lol!!!! but i would think that they wouldn't be neccesary in this DIY?? only the tank and flush kit, right? the good thing about that tank is that it's already plumbed so you just got to pvc it to the tank??? to me it sounds alot easier than cutting holes in garbage cans, lol and when you mess up you got to start over again??? matter of fact today i'm going to check them out at the local brico ( wanna be home depot) if anyone wants to know prices let me know??

[schemo]

ok i went and took a look, they got three different types of tanks, regular rectangle/covex/concave. the one that looks like it can hold the most water is the covex style. looks like all can hold about 3-6gals.

they come complete with 2 diferent style flush kits, 1 all plastic and the other all plastic with a brass nipple.

prices as follows rectangle/79.000 lira ($37.00)
cocave/75.000 lira ($35.00)
covex/65.000 lira ($31.00)

i may buy one just to try them out? it looks good for smaller systems, in my opinion??? if anyone is interested let me know?

[cwa46]

I have built and tried all of the surge devices above. I had mixed results and they were hard to change or modify. I finally settled for a 1200 gph powerhead and a timer. You can use it to add water faster than normal and then shut down, or you can have it remove water and then shut down. Changing the timer and the flow allows for almost any volumn and frequency of surge.

[BRW]

Originally posted by cwa46
I finally settled for a 1200 gph powerhead.......

OK. I asked this question awhile back and got nada answers on high flow rate true powerheads. Who makes this 1200 gph powerhead and what's the model number. Is it a true heavy duty powerhead built for constant cycling?
Also, on the toilet surge tank, how do you propose forcing the flush cycle automatically?
Thanks.

[Roadtoad]

Schemo- Sono di california e fanno molt'anni che non parlo con nessuno. Ciao.

[Roadtoad]

Oops, I forgot, Rio makes 2 that pump in excess of 1200GPH I think they are the 4100 and 4600.

[Snailman]

I already have 8 MJ-1200 powerheads along with the surge device. I have 12 rotating sprinkler heads on the way to replace the power heads becasue I need about 20 of them and they are a PITA. :( In a 400 gallon tank it is very diffulcult to get circulation everywhere.

[TimberTDI]

Hey Snailman,
What's up? I was just wondering what are these rotating sprinkler heads that I've seen you mention a couple of times? I've often wondered myself about these everytime I've past them at the HD. I've always figured that you would need a great deel of pressure to get them to work. (The ones I've seen are spring loaded)

[Snailman]

HD does not sell these sprinkler heads. They are the pop-up kind that you put in the ground. It is an all plastic (after you strip it) gear driven rotating sprinkler head. It is a black plastic tube 1" in diameter and 6" long. It is an Orbit Saturn III. I have one that expermited with so I don't have any pictures of the process. I have 10 more on order and when the come in I will take pictures of the modifications and post them on my web site. I will let you all know when it is there.

[Toast_Man]

Hey y'all

Long time no see
I have been absent from the net for quite a while (long sad story)
I decided to check out the folks at Reef Central and lo and behold there was a DIY surge discussion :) one of my favorite subjects.

here is a link to a discussion I started regarding a design I came up with for a DIY bubblleless surge. This design definetly works and I was in the midst of fine tuning my prototype when My life changed and my tank became a very low priority
any who check it out
http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=13516

Joel

[LiquidShaneo]

OK...here's a question: is there anyone running a tank on nothing but surge devices with no powerheads at all?

Shane (aka "liquid)

[Rod Buehler]

Originally posted by LiquidShaneo
OK...here's a question: is there anyone running a tank on nothing but surge devices with no powerheads at all?

Shane (aka "liquid)
quite a few of my tanks have no other circulation other than what is provided by surge tanks.

[LiquidShaneo]

I couldn't talk you into taking some pix of those tanks and posting them here could I Rod? ;)

Shane (aka "liquid")

[schemo]

hey found some clips on a surge in action...............if you already havn't seem them????
surge clips (http://www.ozreef.org/diy/flapper_surge.html)

[LiquidShaneo]

schemo,

Thanks for the link. I had seen that one about a year or so ago when I became interested in surges. It's definitely a good url. :)

Shane (aka "liquid")

[Rod Buehler]

Shane, I might be able to take some pics someday, but many people will tell you that I am very slow with my camera ;p. are you wanting pics of the tank or the surges? What do you want to see? The surges I am talking about are at my shop, so the set up is a little different than what most people would have in their living room and Im not sure that any others would be interested in the pictures.

[Snailman]

Toast_Man...None of the pictures or links work in that post anymore. :( Would you mind editing it and fixing them because I would like to refreash myself on it because I have been considering one myself. I ordered som nylon rod yesterday. :D

[Snailman]

Toast_Man...None of the pictures or links work in that post anymore and they downloaded about ten of the under ads :uzi:. Would you mind editing it and fixing them because I would like to refreash myself on it because I have been considering one myself. I ordered some nylon rod yesterday. :D

[LiquidShaneo]

Rod,

I'd like to see a tank run on nothing but surges. Any pics, etc, would be interesting to see. Also, any ideas on how to make them look "pleasing to the eye"? I'm thinking about running my new 4'x2'x16" tall tank on surges primarily...

liquid

[cruehead]

Agu-
im working on putting together the Borneman surge myself. in his new book he lists the flapper assembly that he uses. i found it at HD. i cant think of the name or model off the top of my head but if u need, i can look it up later tonight and let u know.

S

[W_dailey]

Anybody have Toast_man pics for me......????????????????

[W_dailey]

Anybody have Toast_man pics for me......????????????????

[W_dailey]

anyone?

[Cnidae]

Did anyone ever get pics of the prototype for the bubbless surge device? I would love to check them out.

[Snailman]

Check out the DIY page on my web site for pictures and plans for the original. :D

[W_dailey]

snailman........I'm building one just like yours but much more shallow and I was wondering what type of distance should I worry about the plug from the second float and the distance from the T float from its pad.

[Snailman]

I don't know so you are on your own to expermint with it. Let us know how it works out. All I did was post the pictures and measurments. Needless to say I did not design it. :)

[dsb1829]

Anyone have updates or other performance insights to add to this? I notice that it has been a while since anyone gave word on their projects. I am going back over some old threads and doing some google searches for surge devices.

I have been contemplating some type of a pressurized RCSD for a while, but have too many projects going right now. Maybe I can get down to some pvc once I am done with the deck, equipment cabinet, and skimmer projects :rolleyes: . Sometimes it seems almost like punishment to be handy ;) . It simply leads to your hands being full all the time :p