A..."Know it all" NEWBIE!!!

[Mstern818]

Please help!I started a 60 gallon saltwater tank about 4 weeks ago. I added live sand and rock and two weeks later 4 damsels I also found a stow away snowflake eel which was in the rock when I bought it. After two weeks my levels no3,no2,ph were normal but my amonnia was around .20 due to overfeeding :D . My supposadly expierenced friend who has been giuding me through most of this cycling calls me from the lfs and tells me he's gonna hook me up and get some fish. Well After giving him my credit card number he tells me he got me the following:

1 Long nose Hawk
1 Yellow tang
1mandarin gobie
1 blennie
1 anthia
about 10 hermet crabs
1 bali starfish
1 pipefish
Okay, I was under the notion it wasnt good to put that many fish in at one time. Keep in mind I am just barely finishing my cycle!
Is my friend a moron?
:mad2: :mad2:

[Mstern818]

^

[RufRidn]

Damn thats alot of fish to add at one time. How are they doing right now?

[peezee]

oh boy, a mandarin goby in a barely finished cycled tank. See if you can return him right away.

[bertoni]

Personally, I'd take them all back. There's a thread at the top of the coral forum that talks about tank maturity.

If you were in a gambling mood, you could keep one of them.

I don't think the pipefish will do well in a mixed tank like that. Scott Michael's book (there's a link off the RC book page) is good for information on stocking.

[K9]

Return as many as humanly possible. I once made the mistake of adding 2 fish when I should have only added 1 and they both died. I couldn't imagine what would happen if you added all of those to your tank at once. Oh my. Take em back ASAP!

-K9

[Raki04]

The tank will be too small for the Tang. The Anthia is a very difficult fish to keep. The Mandarin requires a very special diet and is extremely hard to keep. Take them back to the LFS as soon as you can. If they won't let you return them find an experienced hobbyist to buy them from you .(and IMO don't shop at that LFS again, it was irresponsible of them to sell you these fish)
Don't allow some else to buy your fish for you. These are going to be your pets and you should take the same time and care choosing them as you would a kitten or puppy.
Lastly know how much life your system can support A good rule is about 1 inch per gallon of water. Remembering the displacement of water by LR and substraight. A good place to get growth and temperament info is http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/categ.cfm?siteid=21&pcatid=15
They even tell you what care level the fish are.

[speccialj922]

Raki04 is sooo right. even if you were in a gambling mood and wanted to add that many fish to an immature tank (in which death would be inevitable), those were horrible choices. your friend needs to start doing as much reading as youre apparently doing. some newer people would just be happy with all the new fish in the tank and just be happy. congrats on catching it early. try and take all of the fish back. there will undoubtedly be a minicycle with all of those fish in there.

[Mstern818]

Thanks!!! I am so irriatated with my so call know it all friend!!! Well I am not quite sure what I will do, Today is day 2 all fish seem to be doing okay and are swimming around and look healthy. What I should do is....with the first fish that dies, I will pin the damn thing to his door!!! He gets good deals on fish and supplies but it's not worth it.

[tikki50]

Its important to add fish slowly, very slowly. I added mine too fast even though they were small it really hurts the system and delays maturity. Its suggested to go with no fish for a reef tank for the first few months and let the pod population build up.

[K9]

Originally posted by Raki04
A good rule is about 1 inch per gallon of water. This does not exist in marine tanks! There is no "rule of thumb" for reefs. There are WAY to many variables to come up with a common ruling. Example: You can't have fifteen 2" long marine fish in a 30g tank, can you? Just a thought.

-K9

[Mstern818]

How soon would I start to see signs of problems and what would they be?

[hwynboy]

I will tell you that with the mandarin he will die of starvation. The thing is that they eat a very specific diet of copepods and amphipods and if you have just cycled your tank you have very little to none. They are generally reccomended for 100 lbs of LR in a tank with a refugium as well. If you have an option to return him I would do so asap. Or find someone in your area that has an established tank that can take the poor guy. They are the most beautiful fish in the hobby and with the wrong hobbyist they die a cruel slow death.

[ericd]

Can I answer your initial question? Yes your buddy is a freakin moron!:furious:

[bkreitman]

Originally posted by K9Decoy
This does not exist in marine tanks! There is no "rule of thumb" for reefs. There are WAY to many variables to come up with a common ruling. Example: You can't have fifteen 2" long marine fish in a 30g tank, can you? Just a thought.
-K9
Agreed!

I had always seen one-half inch of fish per gallon, but you also need to consider all of the 'other' living things in the tank, like the live rock, inverts, etc.

[bertoni]

As far as what happens, you might not see a problem with your tank right away. It's a gamble. If your fish overload the filtration capacity, you'll eventually see an ammonia spike and some deaths. Over the long haul, I think you have a lot of fish that won't survive well together and are hard to keep, as others have mentioned. You could get lucky, though, but I doubt it for some of those animals.

Just as one worry, is the snowflake eel going to eat some of your other fish? I don't know, myself.

[Raki04]

Originally posted by K9Decoy
This does not exist in marine tanks! There is no "rule of thumb" for reefs. There are WAY to many variables to come up with a common ruling. Example: You can't have fifteen 2" long marine fish in a 30g tank, can you? Just a thought.


I was merely suggesting that some caution be taken with the amount of fish a 60 gallon tank can support. The suggestion of 1 inch per gallon was to make the poster aware of the fact that as these fish matured they would over tax the ecosystem of the tank. The tang should not be there at all, knowing that they need cruising space. The link I suggested gives a lot of info on the adult size of the fish, temperament and weather or not they are easy to keep.

Mstern818 you are on the right track by reading everything findable on the net and hopefully some books on the subject. I hope you find homes or are able to return at least the Yellow Tang, the Mandarin Gobie and the Anthia.

[wally100]

WOW with friends like that who needs enemys!!!!!!

do yourself a favor and IGNORE whatever your friend says from now on, you will save yourself alot of money and dead fish.

[xxaquanutxx]

Ur friend sure does want you to lose alot of money

[wasp]

OK I've got a slightly different opinion to most others so far, I agree this is to early in the cycle to put all this stuff in the tank, but if that hurdle is passed, and this tank just might luck on through, I think the above combination could work with the exception of the mandarin and the pipefish, these two will at best do badly and likely (but not definately) die. A 60 can be big enough to support a mandarin once a good population of pods is established.
Depending on the shape of the tank, it may be possible for the tang to feel at home.
I'm probably going to get flamed for saying that, but that is my opinion.
Anyway Mstern818, let's know how it goes.

[rjwilson37]

You know what!, Your know it all friend made a mistake and you may pay for it, but also you could do well if you keep an eye on things. By adding all those fish at once, they could get along just fine because they were added all at once and will find where they like it in the tank.

Do they have alot of hiding places, how much LR do you have, what kind of skimmer/filtration do you have as well as the number of powerheads.

I do not think your tanks is to small for the yellow tang, but with the 4 damsels in there with the others you got, that may be just to many fish for that size tank. Your damsels probably have already scounted there territory and may fish other's to stay away and stress them out. What kind of damsels are they?

[wasp]

Oops! 4 damsels as well, and the snowflake, I forgot about those!
Yes everybody else is right, the boundaries are being pushed here to say the least.

[Mstern818]

Here is the latest!!!

I tested the levels of everything last night. PH 8.0 amonia is .25 :(
nitrite 0 and nitrates jumped up to 30 like everyone said it would :eek2: What should I do now? Should I do a water change? I think the mandarin will probably die too. I lost a damsel last night :( RIP!!!

I called my friend and told him I think his decision to buy that many fish was a bad one and he got all offended. F Him and his know it all skills. You guys will be my new tank counslers. :)

Thanks to all!

[K9]

Sorry to hear about the casualties so far. Do not feel bad at all. We've all done it once or more times in the beginning. The ammonia level isn't tragic, but any amount is bad in the long run. Nitrates aren't horrible either. Many people w/a fish-only tank have Trates as high as 40 or more w/o any problems. RC is always the best place for help IMO. The people on here rock! Were you able to take any back to the LFS? Have you done any water changes yet? Maybe you should give your friend our address (ReefCentral.com) and tell him to come here and clear his purchases w/everyone here first :lol:!

-K9

[wasp]

Yes that level of ammonia will hurt, a water change will help. However, as your nitrate level has jumped, it shows that processing is happening, it will just be a matter of time for the bacteria to increase enough to handle the ammonia.
While waiting for this, keep feeding to a minimum, a little hunger for a few days will do less harm than the ammonia.
And a daily water change will help while you have ammonia at detectable levels.

[Mstern818]

Dude, DAILY water changes? I havent done a change in water since I started my cycle which was over 4 or 5 weeks ago. So what your saying is I should change the water ASAP? Also how many gallons should I change? I will keep my feeding down to a minimum too. No I wasnt able to return the fish I cant catch them I tried I have tons of caves and LR so it makes catching the little buggers hard :eek1:
If all my fish die should I just wait a while until everything gets back to normal? before I add anything more

[psiico]

I'll second that. Feed little to none and do daily water changes, at least until the ammonia is zero and stays there and the nitrites are falling.

For the mandarin, if you insist on keeping it, here's something you can try. I'll be flamed for this but what the heck. If you have any pods (little white bugs) now, siphon out 100 or so with a turkey baster or hose into two 1 gallon jars. Put 50 in each one. Fill them both with saltwater and add an airline, no stone. Room temperature and ambient lighting will be fine. Add a bit of flake food, and I mean a bit, every couple of days and swap 1 liter with the tank every two days. After 2 or 3 weeks you should start seeing hundreds of pods in there. Then with the water siphons, suck some pods out into the main tank, too. That'll help feed your mandarin untill you get a proper refugium setup. The jars work with or without substrate, but I find the water quality is better if you use a half inch of crushed shells or something in the bottom. Use more then one jar in case your culture crashes, more jars would be better. I've been keeping a red scooter blenny in a 29g using this method. Had him almost 2 months, he's fat and growing. But I'm training him to eat Cyclop-Eeze now.

Don't use tank water in the jars untill you settle the water quality issues in there now, use new saltwater for the water changes in the jars for the time being.

If you don't have any pods, ask your know it all friend for some, it's the least he can do for you now.

[psiico]

You posted while I was typing. I'd do whatever amount of changes it took to keep ammonia below 0.2 and nitrites below 0.5. That's just my opinion, even those levels may be too high. keep them as low as possible. Right now I'd do 50% if I were you. At least 20 gallons if you factor in what your rock displaces.

If everything dies, do a 50% water change anyway and let the tank settle for a week or two. You should do a 50% water change when your cycle finishes, anyway.

Those are just my opinions, but I think others will concur.

[bertoni]

I'm sorry to hear about your losses. Sigh.

I concur with the water change, and I'd personally stop all feeding for a couple of days.

You might want to get rid of some of your fish. Perhaps I'm being cold-hearted, but euthanizing a few of them might be a good option. If you don't want the damsels long-term, they're a prime candidate because they're inexpensive and hard to place. Depending on how bad the situation gets, this option could reduce the total death count.

Can you give any away to local reefers?

[Mstern818]

Thanks for the advice! I will go home and do a water change. I have like over 100 lbs of LR in my tank so I'll probably do at least 20 gallons. Is there any additives I should add to the water when doing the Water change? I hope the fish dont get to stressed out and die! I'll be going to the LFS to buy 20 gallons of SW should I get anything else you guys would recommend?

Maybe while I'm down there I can find a someone who's a "Know it all" :lol:

[Mstern818]

Bertoni: I cant catch the damn little fish there's tons of caves and hiding places, I havent seen the mandarin since I put him in there. Im very emotionally distraught over all of this happening.

[rjwilson37]

What do you have for a skimmer/filter and how many powerheads are in your tank. What size is your tank?

[bertoni]

There are chemicals like Amquel that neutralize ammonia. I wouldn't recommend using them in the tank; they've been reported as the cause of mass invertebrate die-offs.

They work well for fish-only (no live rock, etc) tanks as a temporary measure. If you could set up a quarantine tank, you might get away with using it; check the breeder's forum for more info.

As far as possible, it's best to premix the salt water, put it in a container with a heater and a pump, and let it sit for a few days at tank temperature. I know you probably won't be able to do that, but matching the temperature is very important, and letting it aerate for a few hours (a small powerhead is good for this) can also help reduce pH shock. Whatever you can do might help.

I've lost livestock and I know how painful it can be. I'm hoping for the best for your tank.

[Mstern818]

My friend is a dumb *** and added the "Emotionally distrought bullsh t" He was logged in as me! (Not the guy who bought all the fish)

I am not too upset more angry at my ******* friend for buying all those fish

I currently have the following:
110 lbs of LR
1 rio 800 ph
1 rio 600 ph
aqua C Remora skimmer
Rainbow lifeguard filters (chemical,mechanical,uvster.heater)
80 lbs live sand

Temp usually ranges around 78-82

Thanks!

[wasp]

Psiico that's a cool tip about the pods. Think I will do that myself.

[psiico]

Here's my pod culture station. There's also a brine shrimp thing going on there on the right. This is a super ghetto setup, lol. I mark the water line on the jars with masking tape so I know where to top off with freshwater. They aren't filled all the way because I find with them this way there's less evaporation. The evap tends to condense on the glass sloping above the surface and drip back in. When they were filled right up I had to add a lot more water each day.

[stolen_pass]

That's SOOOO Ghetto. But I'm SOOO gonna do that when I get home. ;)