Newbie looking for a little help on lighting

[JeepTJ]

Been reading everything I can get my hands on to be less of a newbie, but...

I keep hearing that to handle hard corals and clams you need metal halide lighting. Now, I'm in Texas in an older home, so I'm kind of shy of using metal halides to prevent heat issues (and having to buy a chiller).

What exactly is it about metal halides that make these items possible to grow in the aquarium? I'm buying my first tank ever, a 72 gallon oceanic bow front (please don't everyone tell me it's a bad tank - I already paid for it and ordered it!) - and was thinking going with VHO lights to avoid the heat and get better lighting than the power compacts. Now running 3 or 4 VHOs will generate 330-440W of lighting. If instead I use metal halides and have 2 175W lights, that's 350W. So is it something other than just the total wattage?

I've done quite a few searches here looking for more specific info, but I'm still a little confused. Any help you can lend with getting me to understand the lighting situation would be greatly appreciated!!

Also - If anyone has any bright ideas on how to build up a lighting system and have it in the canopy for the bow tank, I'd LOVE to hear em!!

[LJ23]

I live in FL and deal with a heat issue too.

What kind of corals do you wish to keep (in general) and what clams (specific) do you wish to keep? That said, it will help narrow down options.

You could do 4 VHO (2 aquasun and 2 ultra actinc) and 4x65 PC (2 10k bulbs and 2 actinic bulbs). But I really need to know what kind of corals and clams you wish to keep.

Metal Halide penetrate the water much better than any other light, trailing PC, followed by VHO.

1400w of NO light is not nearly as close to the same light output of 175w of MH. Understand?

We need some more information on what you'd like to keep.





-Nick

[JeepTJ]

Originally posted by LJ23
What kind of corals do you wish to keep (in general) and what clams (specific) do you wish to keep? That said, it will help narrow down options.

Well, as I said, I'm still a newbie and just finding out what the wife and I are interested in trying to keep. I know we find just about all the clams to be very remarkable, so I'd hate to build a lighting system that would not allow it. As far as specific types, I can't really say too much right now - excuse the spelling or incorrect names, but for hard corals I saw a Green Pavona at a store and thought it looked very interesting - also the Yellow Gorgonia seems very unique and the wife seems to be drawn to the brain type corals... I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to the livestock yet, and certainly haven't seen 5% of what's out there! Anyhow, I really just don't want to box myself into being too restricted from the start (especially as lighting appears to be one of the main costs of the hardware, would rather "do it right the first time").

Metal Halide penetrate the water much better than any other light, trailing PC, followed by VHO.

1400w of NO light is not nearly as close to the same light output of 175w of MH. Understand?

Ah hah! So it's not just the wattage, it's how far down in the tank the light penetrates. That makes some sense. My 72 gallon tank is about 23" deep, but then of course the lights won't be on top of the water... Is there some guidelines as to how deep the different light sources (PC, VHO, MH, etc) penetrate?

Thanks so much for your reply, and sorry I can't be too specific yet about what specimens we're wanting to keep.

[LJ23]

I udnerstand where you're coming from. We all started as newbies.

Metal halide pentrates the most, followed by PC (power compact) and VHO. VHO displays better colors than PC, but PC penetrates better.

It seems most of the corals you have picked would thrive under VHO. If you want to get into hard corals such as acro, you would need MH, no doubt.

Some of the lower light clams like deresa, squasmosa, and hipoppus (sp?) would do well under VHO/PC.

If you are going to make a custom canopy, I would do 4 VHO bulbs, with 4x65w PC's. Though I would definatly recommend MH.

You could you a large sump 40gal with a large fuge 20gal, you shouldn't have too much of a problem with the temperature in the tank with MH. IMO, I would get 2 250w MH with 10k Ushio bulbs. That's the best way to start off doing it right.


HTH,



-Nick

[ddawson]

To add to the confusion do a search on T5 lighting from Sunlight Supply. SLS

[LJ23]

Dan, are you saying that T5 is better than VHO?

[ddawson]

IMHO yes. The reflectors make the difference. Plus they use less watts for less heat.

You can see pictures of my setup on my website.

[JeepTJ]

Originally posted by LJ23
If you are going to make a custom canopy, I would do 4 VHO bulbs, with 4x65w PC's. Though I would definatly recommend MH.

You could you a large sump 40gal with a large fuge 20gal, you shouldn't have too much of a problem with the temperature in the tank with MH. IMO, I would get 2 250w MH with 10k Ushio bulbs. That's the best way to start off doing it right.

-Nick

Thanks for responding back, and the information on the lighting for the corals and clams. The 4xVHO and 4xPC... that's a lot of light bulbs to squeeze on top of that tank! haha... not sure I could get it all in the canopy. And a total of 700W - would the heat being put off by those 8 bulbs be anywhere close to the two 250W MHs you suggest?

Also - Do you mean a sump that's actually got 40 gallons of water in it? Is that normal? I hadn't even gotten to planning the sump/skimmer/pump/etc. yet. First step was the tank decision, second was to be lighting, then on and on... Not sure there's space in the stand for a 40gal sump (and not a chance on that plus a 20gal refugium). What would a normal size sump/refugium be for a 72gal tank?

I'm starting to lean more to a lighting system with 2 MH and 2 VHO and just cross my fingers with the heat...

[lakersfan0014]

Well how hot does the room temp get? That is really what is going to determine tank temp. I have 2x250 MH with 2x110 VHO and if I keep room temp at 78 and I have 2 fans in canopy, tank temp is about 80-82. Sort of high I know, probably going to add a fan on the sump to try and bring temp down a little more. HTH.

[Snooker]

Just to ease your mind about the tank, i don't think i've seen too much negative posted about them.

I have a RR Oceanic 72 that i really like. Be careful in planning a sump though, the stand area is pretty small under there.

I have a 20g sump, euroreef es5-2 and mag 9.5 in my sump. Trying to figure out how to shoehorn in a 12x11" fuge under the stand is going to be the next project.

I'm running 4x54 t5 lighting, and keeping mostly soft corals to this point. Others have good luck with higher light species tho.
The biggest pains for me so far have been getting the t5s in the right place and the SUCKY doors on the stand. Anything much bigger than the 24"x12"x12" that I use for a sump will hafta go in through the back. Which means to get it out is a total tank breakdown.

Anyway, I'll try to have some pics for a gallery soon (no digital cam) PM me if you want to chat about setting up your system. I'm no expert, but have just gone through setting up the 72, so some of it may help.

[LJ23]

TJ, the more the water volume you have, the longer it takes it heat the water.

Therefore, get the largest sump and fuge you can squeeze into the stand.

Lighting is totally up to you. I would recommend MH all the way, but if you opt not to, then VHO/PC is the second best.



-Nick

[JeepTJ]

Originally posted by lakersfan0014
Well how hot does the room temp get? That is really what is going to determine tank temp. I have 2x250 MH with 2x110 VHO and if I keep room temp at 78 and I have 2 fans in canopy, tank temp is about 80-82. Sort of high I know, probably going to add a fan on the sump to try and bring temp down a little more. HTH.

During the summer, I think it can get fairly warm. I got a programmable thermostat and had the temp set point at 80 duirng the day while the wife and I were at work. This room was most likely a 3-5 degrees higher than that. Obviously (with or without MH lights) I will have to modify that routine for the summer after (if!) my tank gets up and running...

Thanks for the reply - looks like I could expect a ballpark of 5 degrees over room temp with MH lamps. That might not be _too_ bad - if I lower the thermostat back down during the day. Might have to buy a more efficient air conditioner... or maybe just a house that wasn't built in 1955 :)

[JeepTJ]

Originally posted by Snooker
Just to ease your mind about the tank, i don't think i've seen too much negative posted about them.

I have a RR Oceanic 72 that i really like. Be careful in planning a sump though, the stand area is pretty small under there.

I have a 20g sump, euroreef es5-2 and mag 9.5 in my sump. Trying to figure out how to shoehorn in a 12x11" fuge under the stand is going to be the next project.

Cool! Glad to hear it's a good tank. Starting to wonder... when you guys are saying a 20g or 40g sump, I haven't seen many that big. Most of the ones I see on the online stores for a tank my size (70-100 gallons) says they hold about 3 or 4 gallons. Am I looking at the wrong things? (here's an example: http://cheapcorals.com/product_info.php/cPath/41_83_115/products_id/289)

I'm running 4x54 t5 lighting, and keeping mostly soft corals to this point. Others have good luck with higher light species tho.

Did you retro these into something, or buy a pre-made hood? I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how I'm going to get whatever I decide to go with lighting-wise into that cheap-o acrylic canopy. The wife's totally on-board with getting a tank, but not quite so on-board with it looking like, say, my computer desk - hehe.

Thanks Snooker!

[Aaron1100us]

82 degrees is what I've hear is the reccommend temp for a reef tank by an article by Dr. Ron Shimek so I don't think you would have a hard time keeping it at 82 or under with halides. Someone said that MH penetrate farthest, followed by PC and VHO. VHO actually penetrates farther than those silly PC lights. I used to run power compact and they suck IMO. I have a 400w halide on my 29 with no heat issues and I'm starting a 75 gallon with dual 250w halides and dual 110w VHO. My canopy has two fans in it and I dought I'll have any heat issues.

[lakersfan0014]

Starting to wonder... when you guys are saying a 20g or 40g sump, I haven't seen many that big. Most of the ones I see on the online stores for a tank my size (70-100 gallons) says they hold about 3 or 4 gallons. Am I looking at the wrong things?

Well if you look at the pics these wet/dry's have bio-balls, which first you don't need as they are a nitrate problem, but the water level must be kept at or below the bottom of the bio-ball chamber. That means only a few inches up and therefore the water volume held is 4.5 gallons. If you remove the bioballs then you can keep the water level much higher and have more water volume. The maxi-reef 200 there has a max volume of 20-22 gallons with bio-balls removed. A 75 gallon tank w/ 2-250's and 2-110 VHO' s evaporates about 1-2 gallons a day at least, if you were to have only 4.5 gallons in your sump you'd be in trouble, unless you had a top-off system. HTH.

[JeepTJ]

Thanks for the responses aaron and lakersfan,

The sump size makes sense! I'm starting to think a 24" or 30" refugium/sump combo will be the way to go. Anyone have any suggestions on brands, etc. Not sure I want to DIY since I don't know very much about the whole system yet.

Also, on the lighting, Anyone have any manufacturer suggestions for a 2x250W and 2xVHO or PC light hood? There seems to be too many options to shake a stick at. Are there any that can run directly on top of the tank (without having to be hung)?

Thanks!

[lakersfan0014]

The sump size makes sense! I'm starting to think a 24" or 30" refugium/sump combo will be the way to go. Anyone have any suggestions on brands, etc. Not sure I want to DIY since I don't know very much about the whole system yet.

Good i'm glad it makes sense now. Yea the sump/refuge is a great way to go and is what we run on our tank. We have built a few of these for people around here but shipping them is quite a different story and UPS seems to find a way to break anything they get their hands on. We are looking into different packing/shipping methods. The nice thing is that you can have it built to your specifications and not have a generic one. If you look in to it more there may be someone local who builds sumps and such but i'm not sure. If you'd like check out my webpage as we have some pics of sumps and refuges that we have built.

As far as the light fixture I don't have much experience with a whole kit as I am a DIY thype of guy and have peiced together different components for my lighting setup.

HTH
-Randy

[mtraylor]

Well I just got rid of my 72 gallon oceanic bow front tank, and I will have to tell you that I really enjoyed the tank. I'm glad you have made up your mind about the lighting you wanted, now I can tell you what I had on mine. PFO makes a great lighting fixture that sits perfectly on top of the plastic hood provided by oceanic. It has a great reflector in it, and its black metal contour shape looks great on top of the tank. I suggest you get the fixture with two icecap fans, they vary speed with the heat they detect. I had this fixture with 2-250 watt MH and the VHO's and it ran real damn cool. Actually you could compare it to PC's.. With the unit sitting an additional 5 inches or so off the glass, it stays pretty cool.

You can find the pfo lighting fixtures at: www.marinedepot.com
I will have to tell you this though. Sometimes you have to wait a while for pfo to build your unit, especiallly if they are out of parts. Each hood is hand made for you. I also ran the icecap MH ballasts and they also run real cool, and they are allot less expensive on your pocket on the electric bill. I'm impressed and I'm using a bigger custom fixture on my new tank by pfo and icecap. Nice equipment.

If you are looking for a custom sump/refuge, let me know and I will give you a guy in texas that builds some great sumps/refuges and protein skimmers. I believe his website is: http://www.triggersys.com

With the light fixture that I told you about and an external pump in the sump (Note its a tight fit) I built shelfs under mine. You will have no problems with heat.

[pickle311]

JeepTJ, I live in southern Louisiana so I have the same heat issue as you. I have a 40g tank and had been running PCs for the last 6 months on it. It was 2 96W bulbs that sat directly on top of the tank. I never had any heat issues with them, but they did get hot. I was wanting to upgrade, but had the same delima as you. I was concerned about the heat, but I wanted clams and was determined to keep them. I decided to go with MH and VHOs. I got a 250W MH and 2 95W VHOs. I built the canopy so the lights would be 9 inches above the surface of the water. After it was built and I installed all of the lights and let it rip. Much to my surprise, the temp of my tank dropped 2 degrees. I run the VHOs for 12 hours and MH for 4 hours right now. I just got in installed last weekend so I'm still acclimating the corals to the new lights. I did put 1 small swirl cage fan in the canopy, it blows air out of the back. Even with the MH on, the temp never rises at all. You will be much happier if you go this route, I know my tank looks 100% better. The MH really sets everything off and I love the color that it gives. As long as you have the bulbs spaced up off of the tank and good air circulation inside, you will not need a chiller. HTH

[NeuroLarry]

One thing hasn't been mentioned about MH's that I really like is the shimmering effect that looks like real sunlight. You won't get that with the flourescents. Just one morr thing to consider in favor of MH's.

[DaveJohnson]

Originally posted by JeepTJ
Ah hah! So it's not just the wattage, it's how far down in the tank the light penetrates. That makes some sense.
Yes, it's way more than the wattage. Even though many LFS and people will tell you it's all about WPG (watts per gallon) that is, in fact, a pretty poor yardstick for measuring actual amount of usable light available to creatures at any particular depth within the tank.

What you really want to know is the PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation - a range of light from 400 to 700 nanometers where photosynthesis takes place) level of various lighting schemes at various depths within the tank.

Check out this site which measured PAR under various lighting within several tanks and also gives great info about targeting Tridacna clams and what sort of intensity you'll want in your tank.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/feature.htm

Cheers,
Dave Johnson