HLLE head and lateral line erosion Research question...

[BIGBOB]

Hi,
i'm researching to prepare myself for a science essay about HLLE.
One question:
In most of what I have read, it says that HLLE causes openings in the fish's body, leading to secondary infections.
Does HLLE actually erode the lateral line? If so, considering that the lateral line is a very important sensory organ, does lack of a functioning lateral line lead to the fish's death as well?

[thedude]

Generally the erosions/holes do seem to follow the lateral line. I don't know if the erosions actually damage the nerves along the lateral line, but it wouldn't seem far fetched that damage to the tissue would also damage the nerves.

I'd say the secondary infections are likely what eventually kill the fish.

[Steven Pro]

"Head & Laterla Line Erosion" by Jay Hemdal in Aquarium Fish Magazine April 2003 pages 28-35.

"Hypothesis of Head and Lateral Line Erosion in Fish" by Terry Bartelme a three part series appearing in the September (100-104), October (88-92), and November (84-85) 2003 issues of Freshwater And Marine Aquarium

"Characterization of a Virus Associated with Head and Lateral Line Erosion Syndrome in Marine Angelfish" by Patricia Varner and Donald Lewis, Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 3:198-205, 1991

"A Reported Case of Head and Lateral Line Erosion Potentially Caused by a Bacterial Infection in a Marine Angelfish - Pomacanthus semicirulatus" by Jay Hemdal in Drum and Croaker 22(3):2-3, 1989

[BIGBOB]

ok thanks for the info,
let me rephrase my question,
is the lateral line damaged in any way due to an occurance of HLLE?

[Reef This]

blah nevermind.

[Paul B]

I have a hippo tank now that is dying of lateral line disease. I am not too concerned because I have the fish about eight years so it is about maybe twelve years old. They can live indefinately with the disease and I have never seen a hippo tang past about five years old without lateral line disease.

[Steven Pro]

"They can live indefinately with the disease"

That is correct.

"I have never seen a hippo tang past about five years old without lateral line disease."

I would not agree that this is the norm. I take care of several that are easily past that point and I know of even more. Although, I would say that Hippo's are probably the most prone to this condition of any of the commonly kept ornamentals.

[Paul B]

I have seen them in the wild pretty large and very healthy looking and colorful, but in my experience anyway, they always get it. It may just be me but if you look at them close you can usually see it. Yellow tangs are another fish that almost always get it. I think for hippos and tangs in general it is due to stress. These fish are always seen in schools, you will never see an adult hippo or yellow tang alone, if you did it would be eaten very quickly. In the sea they also do not hide much as they do in a tank. The entire school disappears at the sight of danger but they emerge right away. They also are very active swimmers and move from one reef to another continousely, something that also stresses them in captivity.
I know that not all these captive fish get HILLE but you will very rarely see one in captivity for many years with out it. IMO

[bzzbee2]

I have a koran that has it... although all that is noticable are the two holes in his head that are now about the size of the tip of a ball point pen. ive been trying all sorts of things to help him cure himself but i feel as though i am losing the battle as there is no change after 2 months...

[NTidd]

I have a scopas that has had if for about 6 months, it has a line down his body but it's not getting any worst or better.

[airwaybill]

Garlic additives seem to help. As well as variety of foods. I've had a purple tang for 6 years. Very healthy. I just vary his diet.

[NTidd]

Yeh, I've tried quite a few different things, even using beta-Glucan.

[Amphibious]

Here's a picture of a Purple Tang, taken before I bought it, in a LFS 1 1/2 years ago, to prove to the owner that I could cure HLLE. I tried to put money on it but he wasn't man enough to take the bet.

http://www.theculturedreef.com/Purple.jpg

Here's the same fish today.

http://www.theculturedreef.com/PurpleTang-1.jpg

In my experience HLLE can be cured with diet alone. After getting him home I started feeding him Gracillaria, Nori, brine shrimp, cyclop-eeze and a product called Ocean Fresh Pellets. He responded to this diet rapidly. His appetite was ravenous for the Gracilaria and Nori. In two weeks the HLLE was completely gone.

Granted this case is not severe but I've had experience with worse cases. That's how I knew I could do it.

One other note, IMHO and experience Romain letuce is useless as a food supplement for marine fish. Yes they eat it out of desperation looking for some veggie material. But, it is a terrestrial plant, where Gracilaria and Nori are marine plants.

It works for me and my fish.

[Paul B]

Amphibious, That is a beautiful looking purple tang and the before and after pictures are amazing. I too feed nori I even eat it myself (But I dont have HILE) I just aquired a purple tang, couldn't resist. A store here in NY has them for "three" for $85.00.
$29.00 each. They are a beautiful fish when they are healthy.
I also feed all kinds of stuff I find under rocks on muddy Long Island beaches.
Even feeding nori and all kinds of other fresh food I find that most tangs after being in captivity for 5 or 6 years they still get the disease. Maybe it's just my tank, but I keep hippos for 8 and some 9 years but they start to get it when they age. I think when they age they may need more of whatever they are missing in the sea. I have seen schools of them in the sea and I can't really remember if I ever seen any with the disease, but I doubt they can elude predators that long in the ocean anyway. When they get the disease at a young age it almost has to be dietary along with stress, As you know, tangs are all schooling fish and are never seen alone on a reef.

[emillard05]

Usually a fish suffering from HLLE will not die from the erosion itself, but rather the circumstance that led to the erosion in the first place. Whether it be a poor diet or poor water quality. You've chosen a tough topic for your essay because we don't know a heck of a lot about HLLE and there are many opinions as to what causes it.

[LCGoldman]

My Hippo Tang, who has been "suffering" with HLLE for a long while now (I've tried improving diet with adding selcon, zoecon, zoe, feeding better quality foods, etc.... wasn't getting worse, wasn't getting better... thought its overall color and size improved dramatically), has now come down with ich. ick!

I recently added live rock to the tang, and I'm thinking it must have been carrying it.

I started adding garlic (garlic xtreme) to his diet now too.

Is there anything else I can do/try to get rid of the ich?

Thanks

[emillard05]

The garlic may be a key... I've been using formula 2 for a while and none of my fish have it. Feeding almost primarily greenstuff and NOT running activated carbon have been the keys for me as I would see it. I think the carbon just takes too many improtant minerals out of the water. Also, make sure your water is completely dechlorinated BEFORE mxing your salt. Use of an RO-DI system, especially with surgeonfish, is really important.

[emillard05]

as far as the ich goes. There may have been some die-off with the live rock that created a nitrate spike in your tank... Do a 25% water change and give it a wek or so... Also try running a UV for a little while.

[LCGoldman]

Thanks for pointing out the tip about activated carbon... I did put some in to the flow about two weeks ago.

I run my UV full time... Is that a concern?

Thanks

[chrisg2004]

I totally agree with Paul B. HLLE can be totally cured with good feeding. My large Purple Tang and Sohal Tang were in bad shape when I first pruchased them. By feeding Red Macro GRACILARIA and Nori they are Fat and in perfect health... there no marks whatsoever on these fish after 5 months. Live red macro has everything that tangs need for perfect health.

[NTidd]

I also would think that they have to have a sufficient size tank to be cured of HLLE, probably the reason most of them at the LFS has it is because they are in small tanks.

[chrisg2004]

It's also water quality... most of the LFS holding tanks have poor water chemistry. Too many water changes not enough natural element. These tanks should have lots of natural elements... plenty of live rock in and out of water for filtration, no plastic media junk. Also, Lots of 'water circulation' using several pumps (tangs need this) and lots of aeration, (especially sohal tangs). I also have a few refugiums loaded with Caulerpa, Chaetomorpha, Mangroves and deep sand beds. All of these natural elements combined makes the env. healthy and also the fish. Fish consume almost 70% their body weight each day in water. It passes through their gills and scales. If the water chemistry is not right they will soon show it in thier appearance.

[chrisg2004]

Look at Amphibious's picture of his Purple Tang. This Tang is very happy.. you can tell by the bright purple spots on his face and bright Purple color and overall body thickness. You dont see tangs this healthy at any LFS (if kept there for any length of time). The water chemistry must be perfect... look at all the Live Rock and corraline, this tank is bursting with life. This is the way all Tangs should look.

[chrisg2004]

Here's a picture of my Purple tang... (on the bottom of the page)
http://www.macro-algae.com

[Amphibious]

chrisg2004Look at Amphibious's picture of his Purple Tang. This Tang is very happy & The water chemistry must be perfect... look at all the Live Rock and corraline, this tank is bursting with life. This is the way all Tangs should look.
Thank you. If anyone is interested in how I setup and keep my tank click HERE. (http://www.theculturedreef.com/our100.htm) Please be aware that we are an online business and if you are going to be offended by going there, then don't go there. this is in no way a solicitation for you to do business with us. You are being sent to our aquarium system update.

[Chargerfan]

Not to cloud the subject even further, but I had purchased two juvenile hippo's in 1994. Within 2 years, one tang showed signs of HLLE, while the other didn't. In late 1999, one of the tangs died - the one without HLLE. It was fine one day and dead the next. The hippo with HLLE will be 10 this August. They have been housed in a 240 since the day I bought them, save one time they were in buckets during a house move.

[KingDiamond]

I think I am with Chrisg2004 on this one. Food was not the only things changed. The tank in which the fish was in was also changed. I have seen numerous cases where fish of the same species, held in different tanks, feed the same diet, and had very close water chemistries but one fish has HLLE and the other did not. I think it has something to do with individual tanks. I had a tank that has HLLE really bad. It was a concret tank with a glass viewing window. A couple of small groupers had HLLE really bad. I tore down the whole tank and set it up again and added some Red Sea fish. A Sohol tang was one of the inhabitants. None of the new fish in the newly established tank came down with HLLE.
I think HLLE is caused by a combination of things.

Brad

[chrisg2004]

From WetWebMedia... 'The sets of factors that determine livestock health, Optimization and Stability of Environment plays the most significant role (which brings me back to 'water quality' as being most important factor), the initial state of health of specimen to follow then pathogen presence'. I thank Bob Fenner's team over at WetWebMedia for all of the expert support and knowledge that I have obtained over the years in order for me to fully understand the requirements for maintaining healthy livestock.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm