Are 400W 65,000 k iwasoki's bulbs Yellow?

[Malcolm_C]

I'm looking for a Good Mh Bulb. I understand that The IwaSOKI'S has a high “par� output and it's reasonably priced. I currently had 3 iwasoki 250’s but I don’t like the color. For my main display tank I don't want the yellow\green tent. I saw a setup with 3 250W iwasok's with VHo actinic that was beautiful. What bulb would give me the same look with out supplemental actinic? Price is an issue, I don't want the most equipment on the market nor the cheapest, Growth doesn’t need to be spectacular (I would like growth to be notice able) but Coral color is important. I will keep mostly SPS and the tank will be 36 inch deep. I know this question has been asked thousands of times, but I'm still confused on bulbs and ballast. I once had 3 250W 12k sunburst, but they are just too blue for me. I read over several old post and many people recommend a Advanced ballast that Graybar sells that only works with MV bulbs (the Iwasoki’s and a few others).I’m a little confused about the Ballast with the compositor and the one without I thought the Iwasoki DL bulbs were for reefs, but I read about another bulb in a DYI post (the link is below). I have 3 Advanced Ballast 250Ws that I purchased form Aquatic lighting a year ago and they are pretty yellow with the Iwasoki bulbs. I saw several posts on PFO MH. I’m just confused. I know it’s no perfect way to light your tank, but I don’t have the money to go all out.

The break down

What’s a good 400W MH Bulb for a 36 inch height reef tank, I will have mostly SPS, Growth is important but it doesn’t need to be the best but color is most important.

I don’t want the ugly yellow tent to the water? Which bulb and ballast works best together? Price is important and I do not want to run any additional lighting with the MH’s?

If I put 400 W iwasoki’s on PFO ballast with they are yellow?

If I put 400 W iwasoki’ on this ballast listed below with they be Yellow?

(I only have experience with Iwasoki’s and Sunburst Bulbs so that’s why I’m referencing them)


This is the link to the DIY that I read. http://www.rpi.edu/dept/union/aquarium/public_html/DIY_MH.html


It cost under $500 to construct the DIY about (with 400W bulbs)
If any constructed the kit above with 400W iwasoki’s do you have the yellow green tent?

[Bryan]

400 watt Iwasaki is yellow, no two ways about it. You need a couple hundred watts of actinic VHO lighting to wash the yellow out.

If you don't want to supplement and want a bulb with any decent PAR with a white look then you will have to look at the German 250 watt 10K double ended bulbs. theya re not cheap and require a HQI ballast And they only have slightly better than half the PAR value of a 400 watt Iwasaki.



-=Bryan=-

[scchase]

Well the only other option that I have found and I am still not sure how good it is is to purchase a color filter from a stage lighting supply place. I have one that covers my 400wt IWasakis right now and makes them 10k. It works perfect but the problem I have found is I cant find any information on how much light is lost by using the filters.
Scott

[David Corbett]

I don't see how anyone would describe the light output from a 6500 k iwasaki as "yellow" just does not compute. I have several going with no supplemental actinic the tanks appear crisp and natural. DOC

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

Some people are obviously color blind or are just used to their yellow lighting, I have in my possesion 20k,10k,6500k,5500k bulbs. THe Iwasaki's are yellow, like stated over at reefs.org. The 5500k Venture bulbs are much whiter, and if your looking for "crisp white" then you need 10k bulbs. Iwasaki's need supplemention to get a good neutral white look.

[David Corbett]

Well if it was stated as such at reef.org then it must be so.:D

The Iwasaki's are yellow, like stated over at reefs.org.

You then contradict your self by saying.......

The 5500k Venture bulbs are much whiter

I thought they were yellow?

Basically it's personal taste do you like the darker blue skies of the morning or the lighter blue skies of afternoon? Is one yellow and the other not? Unless we have the light of God shinning on our aquariums I guess all of them are yellow.

Describing the Iwasaki as yellow is inaccurate, period. DOC

[Doug]

Hi Everyone,

It is really had to say if the Iwasaki's are yellow looking or not based on our eyes perception and when we are comparing them to other bulbs.

If you put an Iwasaki 6500k and 10000k side by side the Iwasaki will look yellow to most but is it because it is yellow or because you see more blue in the 10000k.

I also have noticed a big difference in color depending on if they are installed on an acrylic or glass tank. The glass seems to make them look yellow where as they look very white on an acrylic tank from what I have seen myself.

Many have also said that running the Iwasaki's on a MV ballast instead of MH will make them look more white.

I have run Iwasaki's without Actinic in the past and my eyes did get used to it but once I want back to the 10000k's the Iwasaki's did look yellow compared to the 10000k's.

Doug

[DwayneNelson]

I have come to this realization:

Iwasakis aren't yellow, they are yellower.

10000K are blue, they are bluer.

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

Dave Corbit: Dont go by the numbers kiddo, the Venture bulbs even though they have a "5500K" rating are just about as white as the German(Hamilton/Ushio)10K's. I have all of the bulbs and have now fully experimented with them.

Running a Venture 5500K 400 watt bulb along side an Iwasaki 6500K bulb(the new ones with the "Clean ace" DL/BH 39/41R markings)showed the Iwasaki's to have a very yellow appearance in comparison. Even with the PFO EYE(MV)ballast, the Iwasaki's "Yellow" appearance clears up a bit, but not enough to call it even close to being a neutral white. The Venture bulbs on the other hand have a neutral "dull" white appearance by comparison, though also lacking the PAR that the Iwasaki has.

The German 10K(hamilton/Ushio) with a regular MH ballast also looks like a yellow Iwasaki bulb, though a bit dimmer, but when used with the proper HQI ballast, it then becomes much brighter and gets the "crisp white" look it is known for.

The German(Radium/Osram)20K bulb, also is very dim and blue with a regular MH ballast, but when used with the HQI ballast, becomes as bright as a 10K(pretty darn bright actually, only 2nd to an Iwasaki and equal to the 10K)bulb with a very soft blue tinge to it, and from what I have learned is also the 2nd best bulb in the PAR category. I have done the old "color test" by only looking at an Iwasaki bulb for a day, and the eyes do get used to the yellow and it lessons its color perception as the day wears on, but if I turn on a Venture or 10K next to it, it is shocking at how yellow it actually is, the Dave is probably what your eyes have done for you too! And BTW just because the post was at reef.org doesnt make it right, you took the statement out of context and I think you know it as to how it was meant!:D

[David Corbett]

I like DwayneNelson's reply. DOC



I have come to this realization:

Iwasakis aren't yellow, they are yellower.

10000K are blue, they are bluer.


;)

[golfish]

lol, my eyes tell me the 400 watt Iwasaki is butt ugly yellow sitting in between two 250 watt 10K HQI's. It takes 4x55 watt actinic pc's to make the 400 watter color look like the 10K's. The Iwasaki kicks butt. I like what I have.

[Jawfish]

Look at it this way:

- It's very hard to replicate the sun.

- Most of the heavily lit reef tanks have light levels that are a fraction of what the sun provides to a tropical reef.

- Iwasakis put out more useable light (PAR) in the 250W-400W versions than the vast majority of bulbs. The only contenders (250W HQI) require more expensive bulbs and ballasts/fixtures.

- Iwasakis last longer and retain their spectrum better than most other bulbs, especially higher K bulbs. An 18 month old Iwasaki puts out more useable light than some of the higher K bulbs in the same wattage do when they are new.

- Iwasakis are half the price of other bulbs.

- Iwasakis have a solid track record of success when utilized in reef aquaria.

Are they yellow/green? Most folks say they have that tint.

Just add Actinic VHO's to color them to your taste. Most folks want some sort of transition lighting, so your critters don't go from darkness to 'midday sun'.

Regardless of the color, Iwasakis are the value and performance king.

Personally, I love the bulbs, and like the color with a bit of actinic supplementation. If you're going to grow SPS or clams, you'll find they do the job well. If you go with 10K's - 20K's, you might find yourself needing to extend the photoperiod a bit.

Personal Opinion: Whatever you do, don't get the Sunbursts of Blueline 10Ks. I was very disappointed with both. Neither test purchase lasted a month before I felt compelled to go back to Iwasakis.

IME, the majority of people seem to like the asthetics of the following 400W bulbs:
- The Hamilton/Ushio and AB 10K's aren't bad options (although considerably dimmer) for a normal 400W ballast.
- The Osram/Radium 20K's receive good reports for HQI ballast users.

For me? All Iwasaki All Day. Add URI VHO actinic to taste.

[ADS]

I have 250W Iwasaki on one tank and 400W Iwasaki on another.The tanks are under the same conditions. The tank with the 400W iwasaki(EYE ballast) has a DSB and is intensely brighter with white light. There is no yellow hue and it looks natural. The 250W bulbs do have a slight off-white color but not yellow.I do supplement with actinics which makes the overall color excellent. I would recommend the 400W Iwasaki for a 36" system. Supplementation is a preference. This bulb will also last longer(hold spectrum) than 10,12 or20K's.

[UWP]

So do you want to use the EYE or the regular with an iwasaki?

[IslandStyle]

I couldn’t resist entering this neat debate, lighting is always a good one! :D

One of the best articles I have seen on lighting is by Sanjay Joshi & Dave Morgan (see http://members.home.net/kevdone/AF/Articles.html). If you look at the spectral distribution of the Iwasaki, there are definite peaks at the higher wavelengths which would give the light more of a yellow/green look compared with others. Clear as day I thought, there is nothing subjective about it.

It is probably not the best thing to compare aesthetics and beneficial radiation. Just because the Iwasaki have more yellow/green, it does not mean that they are deficient in the shorter wavelengths. Conversely, just because a light may appear more blue, it does not mean they are necessarily more beneficial. The VISUAL appearance can be tweaked by varying the halides to give it a certain overall colour bias and this then leads to a personal optical preference. :p

[Malcolm_C]

Thanks for all the responces.

It seems that most of us notice that the Iwasaki isn’t quite yellow but “yellowier� than Most other comparable bulbs. I would still like to use the 400W Iwasaki’s but Maybe I’ll need to break down and just add actinic lighting.



Next group of questions

Since I’m adding VHO actinic lighting how long would the bulbs last? The only thing that matters to me is the Blueness of the bulb, Par and other attributes aren’t important (maybe color temp, I don’t want any unwanted algae).

I have a VHO light strip that supports four, four foot 110 watt bulbs, would this be too much blue light? Will my 65000K’s look like 20,000 k bulbs?
My Ballast requires me to run all 4 bulbs.

I will be running a 450 Gallon tank with 3 400 Watt MH’s and 4 110 watt VHO, will that be enough light for a tank of that size?

[dragon0121]

Mad_drama,
I think you answered your own question about the Iwasaki bulbs. If I read your last post correctly
The only thing that matters to me is the Blueness of the bulb, Par and other attributes aren’t important (maybe color temp, I don’t want any unwanted algae).
The Iwasaki bulbs will not be for you! They will not appear blue by any stretch of the imagination, they appear white. Some one mentioned glass vs. acrylic, all regular glass has a green tint due to iron content, acrylic will be clear.

If you want to tell the color of your bulbs hold up a sheet of white paper a foot or two from the bulbs, if the paper looks white you have white light, if it looks blue you have blue light, etc. When I did this with my 400W Iwasakis they were white. When I look length wise through my 180g tank the water looks yellow, partly from the tint in the glass and from organics in the water, but not because the light from the bulbs is yellow!!!

Personally I run only the 400W Iwasakis, and then I run 1 hour of 2 -50/50 and 1-03Actininc by themselves for a different look.

[Malcolm_C]

"The only thing that matters to me is the Blueness of the bulb, Par and other attributes aren’t important (maybe color temp, I don’t want any unwanted algae). "


Hey dragon,

I may not have been clear. when I stated blueness of the bulb I ment supplimental 4 VHO 110 watt atinic lighting in addtionion to the Iwasaki 65,000 k bulbs.

Sorry about that

[dragon0121]

I run 2 400W Iwasakis, and with 3 5' VHO Actinics I can get a nice blue coloration, but not much flourescence if that is what you are going for. But I don't like the look of a tank only lit with Actinics, thus the 50/50 - Actinic combo on my tank. If you use 4 110W URI VHO bulbs you will get nice Actinic supplementation, but I don't think your tank will look like the 20000k bulbs, more like the 10000k.

[gas4544]

After wrestling for a week with choosing the lighting for my new 170-gallon 36" X 36" X 30" tall acrylic SPS tank, I have settled on four 400W halides in a cloverleaf pattern. I figure that I will get plenty of PAR from two Iwasaki's and plenty of blue-white to balance them out from two 20KK radium's.

[Vins Fins]

I would say that about 1 hr after i feed the tank, my iwaski's look yellow, couple of hrs later the tank looks white again. Iwasaki's pick up the organics in the water better than other bulbs mainly because of their higher intensity.
I have also gone with 2 400 iwasaki's and two 400 20k radiums.
I will be running the iwasaki's for 3 hrs, then the radiums for the next 5 hrs, then actinics for 4 hrs untill all is off.

[UWP]

regular ballast or EYE?

[Kirk Candlish]

OK, what color is the small square in the middle of the four larger squares.

http://www.merithost.com/squares.gif

They're all the same, exactly the same. Our eyes change our perception of color relative to the environment that color is viewed in.

Is an Iwasaki yellow, no. Is it yellow compared to what you typically see for reef lighting, probably.

I've been a commercial photographer for over 20 years. I use a color temp meter constantly because the color of light is never what it seems to be and our eyes do not perceive color accurately.

Iwasakis really are 6500K, I've used and test both the 250s and the 400s. The color of mid-day light on a clear day is 5000K-5500K, that would make an Iwasaki blue by comparison.

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

Iwasaki's are not 6500K, that is a number that was thrown out by the manufacturer by its own interpretation, and done by no real testing. An Iwasaki is much closer to around 4500K by all comparison especially to our eyes while a German 10K is around 5500K-6000K, with a 20K Radium around 7000K.

By the way, if you want a cleaner looking Iwasaki then do the EYE ballast from PFO, not the regular ballast.

[Kirk Candlish]

My Minolta color meter, the standard of the industry, come us with 6340K on my 400W and 6450 on my 250W Iwasaki. That's not from the manufacturer, that's from the bulb.

[UWP]

By the way, if you want a cleaner looking Iwasaki then do the EYE ballast from PFO, not the regular ballast.

But will they have the same output intensity wise?

[IslandStyle]

I refer back to my previous reference in an article written by Joshi & Morgan.

Using a LiCOR LI-1800/12 portable spectroradiometer in a controlled setup, they read a Correlated Colour Temperature (CCT) of 6200K (read the article to get insight to the meaning of this).

The output of light in the photosynthetic range of the Iwasaki lamp is about 50 percent higher than the output of the 10,000 K Aqualine Buschke lamp, 75 percent higher than that of the 20,000 K Osram/Radium lamp and almost 100 percent higher than that of the 10,000 K Coralife lamp

The Iwasaki 6500 K lamp has a more uniform distribution over the entire spectrum, with higher output in the yellow and green range, which gives it the yellowish/green cast that most aquarists complain about.

As these lamps (Iwasaki) age they have more drop in the blue end of the spectrum as compared to the red end. Hence, the lamps tend to get “warmer� over time, which explains the nature of the spectral shift over time

...maybe too technical but interesting never the less.

[David Corbett]

The color patch test is great, I had to cut some paper up to block out the surrounding colors to see for myself, yep same color. It is amazing how the inner color is perceived, this would help explain why some people are so adamant about the iwasaki's color being yellow. Bottom line without question the best bulb for the buck Iwasaki, no contest. DOC

[cmphamca]

If you wanna get the blue effect out of the Iwasaki bulb, just add another 200W of Halogen lights then you'll appreciate how blue your Iwasaki bulb is.


JK

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

UWP: The intensity actually "ups" a bit using the EYE ballast as that is the proper ballast for them to begin with, not the regualr MH ballast that most people use.

Islandstyle: Too bad those tests are done using PFO's regular ballast and not their HQI ballast as the 10K german, and 20K Radium were meant to be used on. Otherwise thoses numbers would be much different. THe 20K Osram/Radium bulb gets to be almost 50% brighter and puts out about 50% more PAR value with an HQI ballast, which that test doesnt compensate for.

Personally after switching a few of my tanks from both 10K's and Iwasaki bulb's I have noticed the whole tank has perked up a bit, still too early to tell, but I too go with the notion that higher PAR isnt always better, or even brighter, but the 20K Osram lights seem to have the best distributed spectrum of all the lamps. I think the Iwasaki light is a great lamp for people with a limited budget or who are willing to get a more natural spectrum balance when used in conjuntion with some form of actinics.

[Eugene Reefer]

Actually, Sanjay Joshi has texted the Iwaskai and 20K bulbs on a variety of ballasts. Here are some of the results:

Iwasaki: 187.6 PPFD on a standard MH ballast; 199.7 PPFD on a MV ballast

Radium/Osram 20K: 90.63 PPFD on a standard MH ballast: 110.2 PPFD on an HQI ballast; 114.4 PPFD on a Blueline electronic ballast.

The Iwasaki on the MV ballast thus has almost 75% more par than the maximum par produced with a 20K bulb (on the blueline ballast).

George

[dsb1829]

I have definitely noticed yellow color at times in the tank. I have actually sworn something to be wrong with my bulbs. If I notice yellowing of water I simply add carbon for a while to clear things up.

As far as the bulb itself, I would say it gives off a warm white. By that I mean that it is white with a hint of yellow by the blank peice of paper test. Looking into the tank without supplemental lighting the corals will show more brown, pink, and yellow colors. This is not very pleasing to the eye. Most of us want to see the extreme flouresce of our corals. In order to get these to show their best actinic supplementation is needed. I use 2x400w iwasaki mh and 3x140w 03 actinic over our 180g reef. It makes for a nice crisp color, but I will most likely be adding more actinic at some point in the future.

[wavemaker]

I run the 400W 6500K Iwasaki on my reef with supplemental VHO actinics. I use BlueLine electronic ballasts, and have acrylic tank. The light looks great with actinics, a little less so without. These bulbs are awesome for growing coral, and look great too - especially SPS, which grow at amazing speed in my reef.

No question, I will continue with these bulbs. They put out much more PAR than other bulbs. So much so in fact, you can get a blue filter to make these bulbs appear bluer by filtering out the warmer colors and STILL get more actual light on your reef than by using the higher temp bulbs that cost MUCH more.

You can read about the bulb analysis AND the filter idea on Aquarium Frontiers.

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

Eugene:

Iwasaki with MV ballast PPFD:199.
20K Radium with HQI ballast PPFD: 110.

This equates to only about 45% more PAR not 75% like you state.

Also is everyone that uses an Iwasaki bulb trying to recreate a "reef" environment or a very shallow "tidepool" environment. I bet you most people who use them really have no clue whatsoever they are trying to recreate. Actually most "reef ecosystems" are about 10-20 meters down, so my question here asks is an Iwasaki bulb the best bulb for real "reef" aquariums considering most of our tanks arent even 1 single meter deep??? Even most SPS corals are much farther under the water than a single Meter, though there are many corals that are fully exposed to the sun and air on low tides, do all of us really keep these?? I have found that about 3 400 watt MH bulbs roughly equal the suns lumens. FOr people trying to create a true aquatic environment, would 3 Iwasaki's be best for "general" reef corals vs. maybe 2 20K Osrams??? I dont think so in many respects.Either way saturation in both setups has occured IMHO. Also the "growth" factor that people claim with Iwasaki's is going to be no better than using a 10K or 20K in many aspects, Atlantis Aquatics posted a few nice articles on "growth" between the 10K and 6500K bulb with NO difference after a few months worth on SPS corals, so I think Iwasaki's are quite over hyped in many respects too. But I do know that the most COLORFUL corals I have seen so far have come from tanks with 20K bulbs, namely Dr. Mac Corals, and a few people in my neck of the woods too. I have noticed how Iwasaki's tend to "brown" many corals which I think doesnt add to their natural pigmentation at all, but its my own opinion I guess. People who have colorful corals using Iwasaki's I have noted had heavy actinic supplementation with VHO's and PC's. Just another thought to throw out on this thread. I know one thing, I have never gotten so many compliments on my tank since switching over to the 20K's, corals coloration do come out with these lights, and their health has so far seemed to improved in many respects, especially expansion and pigment coloration.

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

Eugene:

[Eugene Reefer]

R & B,

Well, I don't really want to go back and forth about this, but the 75% increase I was speaking of (and I believe Sanjay Joshi was referring to as well) is a 75% increase over the output of the radium bulb. I got the figure by subtracting the par for the 20K bulb (on an electronic ballast) from the par for the Iwasaki bulb (on a mercury vapor ballast). That comes to 85.3 par. If 85.3 is then divided by the output of the radium bulb you get roughly 75%; that is, 85.3 is roughly 75% of the par generated by the radium bulb (114.4). That's where I got the figure for a 75% increase. To put it slightly differently, it takes approximately 1.75 20K bulbs to equal the par of a single Iwaski bulb (or 7 to equal 4, etc., etc.). (I'm speaking only of the actual par produced, not coverage, evenness of light, and so on.)

That doesn't mean, of course, that the Iwasaki is a better bulb. There are plenty of splendid reef tanks using all different kinds of lighting, and all of us obviously have our own preferences as well. Some think Iwasaki bulbs are yellow; others do not. Perhaps the Radium bulbs do "color up" sps corals more effectively than Iwasaki bulbs; perhaps not. The only points that imo are incontrovertible is that the Iwasaki bulb produces a lot more par, is a lot cheaper, and has a longer usable life. (Dr. Mac changes his radium bulbs every 9 months, I believe; some reefers run Iwasakis for almost twice that.) And that translates to a lot fewer $$ (even figuring in supplemental actinics for the Iwasakis) for those who do not have the resources to purchase Radium bulbs and HQI ballasts.

George

[Vins Fins]

This is exactly why i am going to be running both bulbs, with the iwasaki's running only 3 hrs a day they should last at least 3 years, with the 20k's only running 5 hrs a day they should last 16 months. I'm trying to create a semi deep reef, i figure that the pwr of the iwasaki's for only 3 hrs should act like the suns intensity in a deeper reef, then 5 hrs of 20k's should act like the sun is getting less intence, i believe the best reefs would be the ones that use both bulbs. also my iwasaki's are run on the MV ballast, its important to get the most pwr in the 3 hrs that they are on.
Funning thing is my reef looks great with iwaski's and 8 55 watt actinic pc's and 2 140 watt vho actinics, its very blue/white. i had to cut back on the iwasaki's to 5 hrs per day because they are to strong, this means that i'm not getting much from the pc's for the other 8 hrs, iwasakis are great for the first few hrs , but i'm sure the 20k's would give me much more color than a few pc's for the other 5 hrs.